22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

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CadyandZoe

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Your In Denial Of Biblical Truth Before Your Eyes, It's That Simple.
Listen, your ideas are so easy to refute because they are based on single verses taken out of context with no particular interest in knowing what the author intended to say.

I encourage you to study each passage and interpret the text based on the immediate context.
Peter is talking about the Day of the Lord, and although the DOL is associated with fire and burning, it is NOT associated with the obliteration of the planet. The fire doesn't destroy the earth, it purges the land. The Greek and Hebrew word for "earth" can also mean "land." In my view, Peter has passages like Malachi 4 in mind where it says that those who fear the Lord will walk on the ashes of the arrogant evildoers. At that time, the planet isn't destroyed. Instead, the land is purged with fire leaving only ashes.
 
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Truth7t7

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Listen, your ideas are so easy to refute because they are based on single verses taken out of context with no particular interest in knowing what the author intended to say.

I encourage you to study each passage and interpret the text based on the immediate context.
Peter is talking about the Day of the Lord, and although the DOL is associated with fire and burning, it is NOT associated with the obliteration of the planet. The fire doesn't destroy the earth, it purges the land. The Greek and Hebrew word for "earth" can also mean "land." In my view, Peter has passages like Malachi 4 in mind where it says that those who fear the Lord will walk on the ashes of the arrogant evildoers. At that time, the planet isn't destroyed. Instead, the land is purged with fire leaving only ashes.
Of course this earth will be dissolved to its very elements, and replaced with a New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, a completely New Creation

"Behold, I Make All Things New"!

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire
shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
 

CadyandZoe

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Of course the Pharisees were the religious rulers representing "Israel" whom the kingdom was taken from

Of course the "Church" represents the "Nation" bringing forth the fruit that is now in possession of the Kingdom of God on earth

You can bend and twist all you want, your Zionist claims are silenced in presented scripture.
I have no idea what I said that can be interpreted as "Zionist." But you seem to enjoy making a lot of claims that you can't support. I expect we will see more of these out of you.
I don't think I bent or twisted anything. I showed you from where my ideas came. So far your eisegeses remains both unproven and unsupported.

I showed you from the immediate context that the pronoun "you" refers to the Pharisees, an association they freely admit. And yet, even in view of the evidence, you insist that the pronoun "you" refers to Israel, a subject matter not found anywhere in the immediate context.

Jesus and the Pharisees are discussing the meaning of his parable concerning the vine grower and those he hired to work and manage his vineyard. The hired workers who killed the owner's son represent the chief priests and Pharisees who will eventually find a way to put Jesus on a cross, i.e. kill the vineyard owner's son. The vineyard is not going to be taken away from Israel because Israel itself is the vineyard.
 

CadyandZoe

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Of course this earth will be dissolved to its very elements, and replaced with a New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, a completely New Creation
Although your translation says "elements" it doesn't convey what Peter meant to say, since in our language "elements" refers to chemistry. Even the KJV translators knew very little about chemistry. Thus, the King James English isn't talking about the melting of the physical elements of the planet.

Peter has drawn a parallel between the flood event and the burning of the land. And in any case, the planted remains. During the flood event, God preserved Noah and his family in the ark, along with many animals. Given this comparison, we would not expect that the fires associated with the Day of the Lord would destroy the planet and that a few would be preserved alive to live on the planet.
 
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Truth7t7

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I showed you from the immediate context that the pronoun "you" refers to the Pharisees, an association they freely admit. And yet, even in view of the evidence, you insist that the pronoun "you" refers to Israel, a subject matter not found anywhere in the immediate context.

Jesus and the Pharisees are discussing the meaning of his parable concerning the vine grower and those he hired to work and manage his vineyard. The hired workers who killed the owner's son represent the chief priests and Pharisees who will eventually find a way to put Jesus on a cross, i.e. kill the vineyard owner's son. The vineyard is not going to be taken away from Israel because Israel itself is the vineyard.
The Audience Was The "Chief Preists And Pharisees" They Are The Religious Rulers Representing The Nation Of Israel In The Temple

Of course the "Chief Priests and Pharisees" were the religious rulers representing "Israel" whom the kingdom was taken from

The Kingdom of God was taken from "Israel" and given to the "Church" who is bringing forth God's fruit

Matthew 21:42-45KJV
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

1 Peter 2:9KJV
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
 

Truth7t7

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Although your translation says "elements" it doesn't convey what Peter meant to say, since in our language "elements" refers to chemistry. Even the KJV translators knew very little about chemistry. Thus, the King James English isn't talking about the melting of the physical elements of the planet.

Peter has drawn a parallel between the flood event and the burning of the land. And in any case, the planted remains. During the flood event, God preserved Noah and his family in the ark, along with many animals. Given this comparison, we would not expect that the fires associated with the Day of the Lord would destroy the planet and that a few would be preserved alive to live on the planet.
You will closely note you were completely silent in your response concerning the "New Creation" in the New Heaven And Earth seen below, your pre-determined bias to see a Zionist Kingdom on this earth is showing "Smiles"!

Of course this earth will be dissolved to its very elements, and replaced with a New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, a completely New Creation

"Behold, I Make All Things New"!

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire
shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
 

WPM

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Although your translation says "elements" it doesn't convey what Peter meant to say, since in our language "elements" refers to chemistry. Even the KJV translators knew very little about chemistry. Thus, the King James English isn't talking about the melting of the physical elements of the planet.

Peter has drawn a parallel between the flood event and the burning of the land. And in any case, the planted remains. During the flood event, God preserved Noah and his family in the ark, along with many animals. Given this comparison, we would not expect that the fires associated with the Day of the Lord would destroy the planet and that a few would be preserved alive to live on the planet.

One thing that has become apparent since the onset of the Internet and discussion forums like this that allow peoples' eschatological positions to be challenged is that Premillennialists are clearly not the literalists but are in fact spiritualizers. The amount of literal passages that have to be explained away as spiritual or symbolic is alarming. That is because their doctrine is false.

Peter is distinctly talking about the physical renewal of creation that will happen when Jesus comes. It will all be changed into a perfect state. Corruption and all wickedness is being banished forever.

The Greek word is stoicheion. Thayer's Greek Lexicon: στοιχεῖον, στοιχειου, τό (from στοῖχος a row, rank, series; hence, properly, that which belongs to any στοῖχος, that of which a στοῖχος is composed; hence), "any first thing, from which the others belonging to some series or composite whole take their rise; an element, first principle." The elements in this context are speaking of the elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe. Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary describes it as: "the component materials of the world.
 

Truth7t7

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Peter is distinctly talking about the physical renewal of creation that will happen when Jesus comes. It will all be changed into a perfect state. Corruption and all wickedness is being banished forever.

The Greek word is stoicheion. Thayer's Greek Lexicon: στοιχεῖον, στοιχειου, τό (from στοῖχος a row, rank, series; hence, properly, that which belongs to any στοῖχος, that of which a στοῖχος is composed; hence), "any first thing, from which the others belonging to some series or composite whole take their rise; an element, first principle." The elements in this context are speaking of the elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe. Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary describes it as: "the component materials of the world.
Scripture teaches a completely "New Creation" not a "Renewal/Refurbishment" as you suggest

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
 

WPM

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Scripture teaches a completely "New Creation" not a "Renewal/Refurbishment" as you suggest

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

I am not dogmatic on whether this earth will be regenerated by fire or whether it will be a brand spanking new earth. What I do believe fervently is that the new heavens and a new earth (in whatever form God chooses) will appear at the coming of Christ. It will involve (at very least) the burning up of the crust of our current earth. The corruptible earth that we currently live on, and the sinful age we presently exist in, are coming to a definite notable finale.

This earth is depicted in Scripture as gradually decaying to such a stage that it needs replaced. The surface of this earth is likened unto a well-worn overcoat that needs replaced with a brand-new spotless garment. This is shown to occur at the second coming. Christ is not going to replace the current tattered coat with another decayed coat, as many imagine, with their faulty theology. No! But rather a new perfected garment. Death and decay will soon come to an end. But this does not negate the continued existence of the same the earth. It will be an ongoing trophy of God's glorious regenerational renewal.

Psalm 102:25-27 predicts, “Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.”

Isaiah 51:6 also says, “Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.”

Hebrews 1:10-12 tells us, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish (apollumi); but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old (palaioo) as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed (allasso): but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail."

These passages confirm the reality of the ongoing existence of the bondage of corruption at the moment. This will all change when Jesus comes. Comparing this earth to a fading and deteriorating garment, the writer tells us that the current heavens and earth is waxing old. The Greek word employed here for “wax old” is palaioo which means worn out, decaying or to declare obsolete.

The second coming is all-consummating and ushers in the complete end of all things old/temporal and wicked and introduces the beginning of all things new/eternal and righteous. The second coming witnesses the total destruction of the world/wicked and a general resurrection/judgement. The wicked and the righteous are judged in total and that each receives their eternal destiny at that time. The conflagration that occurs here coincides with the replacement of this corrupt sin-cursed world with a new earth eternal righteous state. Christ is coming back to earth, but it will be to a new regenerated earth. Like the sinner this earth has received its emersion in water, it is now awaiting its baptism of fire.

Just like in Christ we become a new creation – “if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new” (2 Corinthians 5:17), yet we remain the self-same entity, so it is with this current earth when He appears. I wish that had meant that my old nature was completely eliminated and that I became completely brand new, although, in a spiritual sense I did – even though my physical appearance remained exactly the same. So, it did not mean that the core "us" did not continue. It did! But our spiritual outward covering was forever changed. We are now clothed with His perfect righteousness. That will be realized in all it literal and physical fullness at the second coming. This is a strong reason to think the earth is going to undergo similar.


The Greek is fairly strong and would suggest a destruction of the old corruptible state of fallen creation and an introduction of the new eternal state. This does not necessarily mean that this earth will disappear; it could mean that through fiery regeneration this present earth will be brought back to its former condition. In this cosmic renewal, everything that is outside of God and possesses any vestige of the fall will be either burnt up or changed.

Every vestige of the fall is removed when Christ comes – never to arise again. A new earth will come-forth that is totally renewed and eternally free of corruption. When man fell all creation fell with him, when man is glorified, all of creation will be glorified with him. Creation is delivered from the curse by the fiery conflagration that regenerates this current earth and renews it to the state it was before the fall - free from, sin, wickedness, the wicked, death and wars (the awful plagues that continue to blight the Premil millennium).

Earth will last forever


Scripture tells us that we are coming back to earth, but I believe it will be a regenerated earth (Malachi 4:1-3, I Corinthians 15:50, 2 Peter 3). It will be an earth totally purged of all corruption. The new heavens and a new earth (in whatever form God chooses) will appear at the coming of Christ. It will involve (at very least) the burning up of the crust of our current earth. This current earth will be totally changed / regenerated – making it a new curse-free environment. The earth will be restored to its previous pristine condition. These passages would sway me towards the position that this earth will remain forever – only in a new condition.

Job prophesied that the Lord would stand on this earth at the end of the age. Job 19:25-26: “For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God.” There is no other earth than this present one that Job would have been familiar with.

Psalm 37:9-11 says, “For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.”

Psalm 37:22 says, For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.”

Psalm 25:12-13 says: What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose. His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.”

Christ confirmed this in Matthew 5:5 saying,
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.”

Another strong reason to believe that this current earth will be regenerated is the fact that different old testament scriptures tell us that this earth will last forever. These passages would suggest the continuation of this earth in some form.

Ecclesiastes 1:4 says, the earth abideth forever.”

Psalm 78:69 says, the earth which he hath established forever.”

Psalm 93:1b says, The world also is established, that it cannot be moved.”

Psalm 96:10 says, “the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved.”

Psalm 104:5 says, Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed forever.”

This literally means “So that it will not totter forever and ever." The word totter means, to refrain from moving out of place.
 

Truth7t7

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I am not dogmatic on whether this earth will be regenerated by fire or whether it will be a brand spanking new earth. What I do believe fervently is that the new heavens and a new earth (in whatever form God chooses) will appear at the coming of Christ. It will involve (at very least) the burning up of the crust of our current earth. The corruptible earth that we currently live on, and the sinful age we presently exist in, are coming to a definite notable finale.

This earth is depicted in Scripture as gradually decaying to such a stage that it needs replaced. The surface of this earth is likened unto a well-worn overcoat that needs replaced with a brand-new spotless garment. This is shown to occur at the second coming. Christ is not going to replace the current tattered coat with another decayed coat, as many imagine, with their faulty theology. No! But rather a new perfected garment. Death and decay will soon come to an end. But this does not negate the continued existence of the same the earth. It will be an ongoing trophy of God's glorious regenerational renewal.

Psalm 102:25-27 predicts, “Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.”

Isaiah 51:6 also says, “Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.”

Hebrews 1:10-12 tells us, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish (apollumi); but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old (palaioo) as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed (allasso): but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail."

These passages confirm the reality of the ongoing existence of the bondage of corruption at the moment. This will all change when Jesus comes. Comparing this earth to a fading and deteriorating garment, the writer tells us that the current heavens and earth is waxing old. The Greek word employed here for “wax old” is palaioo which means worn out, decaying or to declare obsolete.

The second coming is all-consummating and ushers in the complete end of all things old/temporal and wicked and introduces the beginning of all things new/eternal and righteous. The second coming witnesses the total destruction of the world/wicked and a general resurrection/judgement. The wicked and the righteous are judged in total and that each receives their eternal destiny at that time. The conflagration that occurs here coincides with the replacement of this corrupt sin-cursed world with a new earth eternal righteous state. Christ is coming back to earth, but it will be to a new regenerated earth. Like the sinner this earth has received its emersion in water, it is now awaiting its baptism of fire.

Just like in Christ we become a new creation – “if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new” (2 Corinthians 5:17), yet we remain the self-same entity, so it is with this current earth when He appears. I wish that had meant that my old nature was completely eliminated and that I became completely brand new, although, in a spiritual sense I did – even though my physical appearance remained exactly the same. So, it did not mean that the core "us" did not continue. It did! But our spiritual outward covering was forever changed. We are now clothed with His perfect righteousness. That will be realized in all it literal and physical fullness at the second coming. This is a strong reason to think the earth is going to undergo similar.


The Greek is fairly strong and would suggest a destruction of the old corruptible state of fallen creation and an introduction of the new eternal state. This does not necessarily mean that this earth will disappear; it could mean that through fiery regeneration this present earth will be brought back to its former condition. In this cosmic renewal, everything that is outside of God and possesses any vestige of the fall will be either burnt up or changed.

Every vestige of the fall is removed when Christ comes – never to arise again. A new earth will come-forth that is totally renewed and eternally free of corruption. When man fell all creation fell with him, when man is glorified, all of creation will be glorified with him. Creation is delivered from the curse by the fiery conflagration that regenerates this current earth and renews it to the state it was before the fall - free from, sin, wickedness, the wicked, death and wars (the awful plagues that continue to blight the Premil millennium).

Earth will last forever


Scripture tells us that we are coming back to earth, but I believe it will be a regenerated earth (Malachi 4:1-3, I Corinthians 15:50, 2 Peter 3). It will be an earth totally purged of all corruption. The new heavens and a new earth (in whatever form God chooses) will appear at the coming of Christ. It will involve (at very least) the burning up of the crust of our current earth. This current earth will be totally changed / regenerated – making it a new curse-free environment. The earth will be restored to its previous pristine condition. These passages would sway me towards the position that this earth will remain forever – only in a new condition.

Job prophesied that the Lord would stand on this earth at the end of the age. Job 19:25-26: “For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God.” There is no other earth than this present one that Job would have been familiar with.

Psalm 37:9-11 says, “For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.”

Psalm 37:22 says, For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.”
The "Earth" will abide forever, it will be the "New Earth" not Mars, Pluto, Jupiter, or The Moon

Scripture clearly teaches of a completely "New Creation" as seen below

Yes we agree that this change will take place at the second coming, and I believe scripture teaches it will be in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" at the same time of the resurrection and catching up

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

"For, Behold, I Create New Heavens And A New Earth"

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
 

Keraz

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I am not dogmatic on whether this earth will be regenerated by fire or whether it will be a brand spanking new earth. What I do believe fervently is that the new heavens and a new earth (in whatever form God chooses) will appear at the coming of Christ. It will involve (at very least) the burning up of the crust of our current earth. The corruptible earth that we currently live on, and the sinful age we presently exist in, are coming to a definite notable finale.
In this belief, you are provably wrong. Revelation 21:1, is perfectly clear: The New heavens and the new earth come AFTER the Millennium.
There will be mortal life pretty much as usual, albeit for much longer and better, during the Millennium, Isaiah 2:1-4,Isaiah 65:18=25
It will be the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, that will burn and devastate the earth. Isaiah 66:15-17, Malachi 4:1-3 But what will happen is just a 1 day strike and most people will survive by taking cover, as Revelation 6:15-17 describes.
The vineyard is not going to be taken away from Israel because Israel itself is the vineyard.
It will be the true, righteous and faithful Israelites of God, who will inherit the holy Land. Psalms 37:20, Ephesians 3:6
The people of Israel and Judah, will be Judged and only the Christian believers will enter the holy Land. Ezekiel 20:34-38
 

WPM

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The "Earth" will abide forever, it will be the "New Earth" not Mars, Pluto, Jupiter, or The Moon

Scripture clearly teaches of a completely "New Creation" as seen below

Yes we agree that this change will take place at the second coming, and I believe scripture teaches it will be in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" at the same time of the resurrection and catching up

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

"For, Behold, I Create New Heavens And A New Earth"

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

You are just contradicting everything you just said. Hmmm!
 

Truth7t7

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You are just contradicting everything you just said. Hmmm!
No contradiction whatsoever, your living in reformed eschatology denial

No different than Pre-Tribbers and Millennialist
 
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Truth7t7

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In this belief, you are provably wrong. Revelation 21:1, is perfectly clear: The New heavens and the new earth come AFTER the Millennium.
There will be mortal life pretty much as usual, albeit for much longer and better, during the Millennium, Isaiah 2:1-4,Isaiah 65:18=25
It will be the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, that will burn and devastate the earth. Isaiah 66:15-17, Malachi 4:1-3 But what will happen is just a 1 day strike and most people will survive by taking cover, as Revelation 6:15-17 describes.

It will be the true, righteous and faithful Israelites of God, who will inherit the holy Land. Psalms 37:20, Ephesians 3:6
The people of Israel and Judah, will be Judged and only the Christian believers will enter the holy Land. Ezekiel 20:34-38
Your claim of a Millennial Kingdom on this earth is false

Jesus returns in fire and final judgment, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

You can repeat your claims all you want, a Millennial Kingdom on this earth is a man made fairy tale!
 

Ronald Nolette

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Since abandoning Premillennialism I have engaged in many debates/discussions on the matter of the second coming, end-times and the here-after. These are some of the major weaknesses I find in the Premillennialism doctrine, and are strong reasons why I believe the dogma should be rejected.

I want to list some of the issues that forced me to eventually abandon Premillennialism and embrace Amillennialism. My main reason for abandoning Premil was the severe lack of corroboration. I had a major issue with that! What is more: I had multiple problem-texts as a Premil that showed the coming of Christ to be climactic and all-consummating. I have presented a lot of these questions in discussions over the years (since 2000) on boards like this and have failed to get any satisfactory corroboration for these questions. What I normally get is either blatant avoidance of the issues or "Revelation 20 says." This is so frustrating because Revelation 20 does not corroborate Revelation 20. Amils on the other hand tend to use the biblical premise "what saith the Scripture." The only conclusion I could arrive at is that the Premil interpretation of Revelation 20 is in error, it conflicts with numerous Scripture, and enjoys NO other serious scriptural support.

(1) Premil is totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, one chapter in the Bible – Revelation 20. It interprets the rest of Scripture in the light of its opinion of one lone highly-debated chapter located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. All end-time Scripture is viewed through the lens of Revelation 20. This is not a very wise way to establish any truth or doctrine. Take this passage out of the equation and Premillennialism has nothing in the inspired pages to support their main tenets. Amils have a problem with, and very much disagree with this form of hermeneutics and exegesis of many Scriptures.

(2) Premil hangs its doctrine on a very precarious frayed thread: that of Revelation 20 following Revelation 19 chronologically in time. To hold this, it has to dismiss the different recaps (or different camera views pertaining to the intra-Advent period) that exist throughout the book of Revelation, divorce it from repeated Scripture on this matter and also explain away the clear and explicit climactic detail that pertains to Revelation 19. Premil is dependent upon the dubious premise that Revelation 20 is chronological to Revelation 19. That is it! Disprove that and Premil falls apart.

(3) The detail Premil attributes to Revelation 20 compared to what the actual text explicitly says is day and night. Revelation 20 does not remotely say what Premil attribute to it. Many extravagant characteristics, events and ideas are inserted into Revelation 20 that do not exist in the said chapter.

For example:

· For years, it has been the Premil mantra that Jesus will be ruling in majesty and glory with a rod of iron for 1000 years on planet earth after the second coming. But this can be found nowhere in Revelation 20 or any other passage in Scripture?
· Premillennialists argue that salvation will continue on after the second coming. But where does it say that? The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation. Scripture makes clear: now is the day of salvation. It also shows the completion of the great commission ushers in the end of the world (Matthew 28:19-20). Scriptures tells us that “the longsuffering of our Lord” that marks the period before Jesus comes as a thief in the night “is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). There is no more salvation after that.
· They argue that the old covenant arrangement will be fully restarted in a future millennium, even though Revelation 20 makes no mention of such teaching.
· Premillennialists speak about the restoration of an elevated position for ethnic Israel on their future millennial earth. But a careful study of Revelation 20 teaches no such thing.
· They insist that glorified saints and mortal sinners will interact in a future millennium, even though Revelation 20 makes no mention of such a belief.
· They present their future millennium to be perfect pristine paradise of peace and harmony when in fact it ends up the biggest religious bust in history, as billions of wicked as the sand of the sea overrun the Premil millennium. Their age is just 'more of the same'. There is more sin and sinners, more death and disease, more war and terror, more of the devil and his demons. The idyllic setting of the lamb enjoying sweet communion with the wolf, the bullock eating straw with the lion, the little kid-goat lying peaceably beside the leopard, the cow and the bear grazing happily together is quickly broken as the slaughter truck roar up from the temple. The Zadok priests quickly jump out and drag the unsuspecting animals aboard who had been lulled into a false-sense of security by Christ’s rod of iron rule. As the truck speeds off the millennial peace and harmony is broken forever by the bloody intent of the Zadok priests. When they arrive in Jerusalem they pointlessly slit the throats of the lambs, goats and bullocks because they are somehow needed as sin offerings, even though Jesus had made the final sacrifice for sin thousands of years previous.

(4) Premillennialists interpretation of Revelation 20 contradicts numerous explicit climactic Scriptures. Premillennialists have to insert “a thousand years” in passage after passage where it does not exist. This is called adding unto Scripture, something forbidden in the Word of God (Deuteronomy 12:32 and Revelation 22:18).

(5) Premil is always explaining away the clear and explicit New Testament Scripture (the fuller revelation) by the shadow, type and vaguer Old Testament. It uses indistinct or misunderstood Old Testament Scripture to negate and reject clear and explicit New Testament Scripture that teaches otherwise. We Christians have the benefit of the New Testament to explain what is difficult or obscure in the Old Testament. Christ has superseded the old covenant arrangement and now fulfils the new covenant arrangement as predicted. The New Testament is the greater revelation. The interpretation placed on the Old Testament by Christ and the New Testament writers override all other opinions and interpretations of man. As Augustine wrote: “The New Testament is in the Old Testament concealed, the Old Testament is in the New Testament revealed.”

(6) Many testify that they are Premillennial because they take the Word of God literal, yet, when you put their theology to the test an opposite picture unfolds. Premillennialism spiritualizes the literal passages and literalizes the spiritual passages. Their hyper-literalistic approach to highly-figurative Revelation is a case-in-point. Their own hermeneutics actually forbids their beliefs. As Kim Riddlebarger says: “Their own hermeneutics will not bear the weight that is assigned to it … they cannot make good on their own stated hermeneutics”

And their is only one reason why you should hold to it- it is the most biblical without having to reinterpret Scripture, to pigeon hole Scripture to fit your agenda!

No theology of man amil. pre-mil post mil etc.etc. is perfect. all have flaws and all have heretrics in the past who staunchly suppoted them. But a Dispensational hermeneutic which is based on a literal/historical/grammatical method of undersataniding Scripture and follows the golden rule of interpretation:

The common sense Golden Rule of Interpretation
Posted on March 30, 2014


“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”


I have found after 49 years of walking with the Lord that this method causes the least harm to the Word of God.
 

jeffweeder

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No theology of man amil. pre-mil post mil etc.etc. is perfect.

What Jesus taught is perfect. Listen to him and your Amill 7days a week.


[Ronald ] And their is only one reason why you should hold to it- it is the most biblical without having to reinterpret Scripture, to pigeon hole Scripture to fit your agenda!]

Premill does this with Rev 20 when they contradict every other writer in the NT regarding the coming of the Lord at the end of the age. How you can say it's the most biblical is beyond me.

Nothing could be more unrealistic than unrepentant sinners surviving Jesus coming in the power and great glory of his Father.
 

CadyandZoe

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One thing that has become apparent since the onset of the Internet and discussion forums like this that allow peoples' eschatological positions to be challenged is that Premillennialists are clearly not the literalists but are in fact spiritualizers. The amount of literal passages that have to be explained away as spiritual or symbolic is alarming. That is because their doctrine is false.

Peter is distinctly talking about the physical renewal of creation that will happen when Jesus comes. It will all be changed into a perfect state. Corruption and all wickedness is being banished forever.

The Greek word is stoicheion. Thayer's Greek Lexicon: στοιχεῖον, στοιχειου, τό (from στοῖχος a row, rank, series; hence, properly, that which belongs to any στοῖχος, that of which a στοῖχος is composed; hence), "any first thing, from which the others belonging to some series or composite whole take their rise; an element, first principle." The elements in this context are speaking of the elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe. Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary describes it as: "the component materials of the world.


Your translation is throwing you off because the translator has made an incorrect conclusion about Peter's intent, leading you to draw the same conclusion. Contrary to Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown, while the Greek supports the translation they suggest, another, more likely meaning is the correct one.

The New Testament has employed the phrase stoicheia tou kosmou when speaking about religious practices.

An example of this usage is found in Colossians 2:8, 20-21.

Colossians 2:8
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

The Greek word for "world" here is "kosmos", which refers to any ordered system. For instance, we get our word "cosmetics" from "kosmos" referring to the products women use to give order to the face.

Later in the chapter, Paul lists a few things, by which he defines the particular "kosmos" he has in mind.

Colossians 2:20-23
If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? 23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

Paul helps us understand what he means by stoicheia tou kosmou. Verse 8 mentions philosophy and empty deception, and verses 20-23 mention decrees such as "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch, in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men.

In my view, Peter is not predicting the cessation of the elementary principles of the world, he is predicting the cessation of religious decrees and empty religious practices, which will burn up with the purge of Israel.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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What Jesus taught is perfect. Listen to him and your Amill 7days a week.


[Ronald ] And their is only one reason why you should hold to it- it is the most biblical without having to reinterpret Scripture, to pigeon hole Scripture to fit your agenda!]

Premill does this with Rev 20 when they contradict every other writer in the NT regarding the coming of the Lord at the end of the age. How you can say it's the most biblical is beyond me.

Nothing could be more unrealistic than unrepentant sinners surviving Jesus coming in the power and great glory of his Father.


Because it is the most biblical. There is no warrant to take the 1,000 years symbolically. And all that have tried on this thread have created massive problems with so many other SCriptures as well as rejecting enormous amounts of unfuflilled prophecy in the OT concerning life on earth when teh Son of David reigns.

course most amils I know allegorize those prophecies to the church and spiritualize them and dsay god is through with Israel as a people and nation.

REv. 20 ^ says how long those who did not take the mark and were beheaded for their testimony in Christ reign WITH Jesus!

Revelation 20
King James Version

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


To say it is all symbolic and means something else is to rewrite Scripture! and how do you know if your symbolic rewrite is the correct one? Don't say SCripture because even the JW"S and Mormons and preterists and even some dispy's say the same thing. So god has given lots of different people lots of different "interpretations".
 

WPM

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And their is only one reason why you should hold to it- it is the most biblical without having to reinterpret Scripture, to pigeon hole Scripture to fit your agenda!

No theology of man amil. pre-mil post mil etc.etc. is perfect. all have flaws and all have heretrics in the past who staunchly suppoted them. But a Dispensational hermeneutic which is based on a literal/historical/grammatical method of undersataniding Scripture and follows the golden rule of interpretation:

The common sense Golden Rule of Interpretation
Posted on March 30, 2014


“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”


I have found after 49 years of walking with the Lord that this method causes the least harm to the Word of God.

There is no sense of objective analyze with the Premil approach to Rev 20. They force a literal interpretation upon the most symbolic of language. They seem to have no grasp of apocalyptic language. They also do not seem no understand the importance of corroboration (interpreting Scripture with other Scripture). That is why they have no corroboration. It is unbiblical! It cannot abide the truth!

Amillennialists do not force a bias preconceived notion upon the sacred text. Each passage, chapter and book should be approached recognizing its proper sense and setting. That may be hyper-literal, highly-symbolic, hyperbolic, parabolic, poetic or apocalyptic. But the context and ambience of the location should assist us in determining the overall thrust of the text. What is more, a good knowledge of other relevant Scripture, should reinforce what the sense and setting is telling us. That helps us in interpreting the Bible as it presents itself.

Alan D. Cole, “The interpreter will also consider broader contexts such as the surrounding chapters, the book, or related passages to gain further understanding” (The Grammatical-Historical Hermeneutic).

It is actually Amils who are the typical literalists in end-time passages, and Premils spiritualize (or explain away) the explicit inspired detail away. This is just another example of countless where you and others do so. Amils spiritualize much of Revelation because context, genre and flow tell us that it is mainly figurative terms in the most symbolic setting in Scripture. What do Premils do there (surprise, surprise)? Literalize the apocalyptic detail. Talk about error and duplicity!!!
 
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