Are you saying believers are no more condemned for sin, even when sinning?
When a believer does a work of the flesh, he is not condemned for it as an unbeliever doing the same thing?
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OSAS Revamps it's Image: Not Sinners nor Saints
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Are you saying believers are no more condemned for sin, even when sinning?
When a believer does a work of the flesh, he is not condemned for it as an unbeliever doing the same thing?
How do you presume that?
What I read is that those in Christ Jesus are not condemned for sin, because they are not sinning and walking in the flesh, but instead are now walking in the Spirit.
The sensible conclusion is a man is not condemned for sin, if he is not sinning.
You are making the conclusion, that if a man is not condemned for sin, it's because he will still sin.
That doesn't make any sense.
Do you not understand Paul to be saying that very thing in Romans 8:1-4? After explaining about our condition about falling short of the glory of God and our ongoing inability to avoid sin, He says:
"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."
Is there some other way that you understand that?
I don't "presume" anything, Robert. I'm really not even sure what you think I'm presuming, to be quite honest.
Ah, not "because they are not sinning," but because they no longer dwell in sin, are no longer slaves to unrighteousness, and no longer walk in the flesh. Paul is not saying we are free from sin or sin-free or no longer sin, but freed from the law of sin and death (Romans 8:4). Paul has just spent the first seven chapters of Romans explaining the human condition, even using Himself as an example in Romans 7. He never says "I don't sin anymore," but even precisely the opposite:
"I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin." (Romans 7:21-25)
And then:
"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." (Romans 8:1-4)
Though we deserve precisely the opposite, we who are in Christ Jesus are not condemned for our sin any longer ~ the strong implication being that we still, in this life, sin and fall short of the glory of God ~ because we are redeemed by Christ, our Kinsman Redeemer. This is God's truly amazing grace.
So now, even though we still, in this life, sin and fall short of the glory of God, we no longer dwell in our sin, or walk in it, but we are repentant of our sin, and walk in the Spirit. Even all this ~ including our repentance ~ is an ongoing work of God by His Spirit in us; God, in His kindness, leads us to repentance (Romans 2:4). And again, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us... neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 8:37-39), and He Who began a good work in us will bring it to completion at the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6).
No, the sensible conclusion is that the man or woman who is in Christ is no longer condemned despite his or her sin. But you should not understand anybody, much less Paul or even me bot be suggesting that our sin is now overlooked or disregarded ~ or... GASP... encouraged ~ in any way by God.
No, I'm "making the conclusion" that... well, see above. Wow. You're conclusion about what my conclusion is is what makes no sense.
Come on, man. This is really not hard to understand. It's a stupendous, magnificent thing, for sure, that God has done this for us and is doing this in us, and maybe hard to fathom that God's grace could be this amazing, but not hard to understand. Come on.
Grace and peace to you, Robert.
Ok, thanks. You've stated your case plainly, and there remains only one area to clarify. You are consistently speaking of Christians not being condemned for sins in context of imperfectionism. Does that include sinful works of the flesh? Some of which are these:
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
No, but in the context of having been born again of the Spirit ~ made spiritually alive and thus (though not yet fully) of God. And that's the Biblical context.
Ah, Galatians 5. Such a great passage. The issue in all this is lack of repentance from sin, Robert. And in that case, no, unrepentant sinners will not inherit the kingdom of God. In that passage, Paul does go on to say, "those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires" does He not? And that should answer your question. A big part of belonging to Christ Jesus is no longer being a slave to unrighteousness but made a slave to righteousness. And being slaves to righteousness, we are repentant ~ though not yet perfectly ~ of our sin. But again, God is at work in us, and will bring that good work to completion at the day of Christ.
Have a nice weekend, Robert.[/QUOTE]
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Not really.
Does the no condemnation for believers extend to committing a sinful work of the flesh in Gal 5?
I think that is as clear as I can get. So, I'd like a yes or no answer first this time, then you can go into explanations of more detail if you like.
If you don't think a yes or no answer is possible, then you can say that too.
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Helen
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im still watching this thread
I don’t want to interrupt here…but don’t you find that those who misunderstand the true OSAS message is because they misunderstand the difference between our salvation and our reward ?
Reward can be lost , …some people have steam coming out of their ears whenever the thought of positions in heaven are mentioned. They are only comfortable in believing that everyone is equal in the kingdom. ( “Lord grand that we may sit on your right hand and left hand in your kingdom” …” That is not mine to give , but my Fathers “ ) …
But obviously as we already have angels, archangels , seraphims , cherabims ….we ‘ also -runners ‘ ..won’t get the same positional responsibilities as Abraham or Paul…
To the true believers salvation is sure …but until our last breath…our positional reward of faithfulness is still up for grabs .
If you don’t wish to respond here …you can inbox instead . Thx
amigo de christo
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The real question is , WHY did paul warn believers not to be DECIEVED that indeed those who do such things WILL NOT inherit the KINGDOM of GOD .WHY did paul warn churches and why today do so many try so hard to teach otherwise as though none of this matters .
PAUL said THOSE WHO DO SUCH THINGS WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD .
HE even says DONT be decieved CHURCH , Those who sow to the flesh will reap corruption those who sow to the SPIRIT
shall reap LIFE EVER LASTING .
WHEN paul was telling the corinthian church about taking folks to law . WHY DID HE ALL OF A SUDDEN
SAY THIS . Exactly . WHO WE SERVE IS WHOSE WE ARE AND GOD AINT GONNA BE DECIEVED , even if folks are .
OSAS is how Christians are decieved into doing the works of the flesh, and thinking they are not judged and condemned for it.
When I was doing works of the flesh as a Christian, I didn't need any OSAS rubbish to justify it, but knew I was simply being double minded in the faith of Jesus, and so like Paul, I needed deliverance from the works of the flesh once for all, and go on to the mature perfecting of Romans 8, where we are no more condemned because we are no more doing sinful works to be condemned by.
Jesus died once for all on the cross, that we can be forgiven and delivered once for all from sinful deeds of the flesh.
It doesn't mean we are perfected, in that we can no longer even be tempted to sin by the devil, as though we were already resurrected with Jesus and God on the throne in glory, Who cannot sin nor be tempted with sin, as He was in our flesh on earth.
Well, I'm not going to be directed in my communications ~ I would never do such a thing myself ~ and thus am going to answer this question as I please.
I get ~ loud and clear ~ what you've been trying to do in this whole conversation, Robert. You've been, quite without subtlety, trying to catch me in some sort of contradiction, trying to get to some great "gotcha" moment. Well, that's not going to happen. Let me ask you this Robert. Paul says in Romans 8:1-2, "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death." Do you somehow still think that Paul, after saying that there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, turns right around and says to us that condemnation for those in Christ Jesus is still a possibility? Surely not.
So, yes, no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus actually means no condemnation. Having said that, though, Galatians 5 needs a little closer examination here, Robert, and especially one little detail that is of great relevancy to exactly what you're trying to get at, namely verse 21, and specifically who Paul is talking about when he says, "those who do such things." The present participle (Greek 'prassontes,' translated here as 'do') refers to those who "make a practice of doing" such things, as a pattern of life. The NKJV actually translates it this way, saying "those who practice such things," really a better ~ fuller ~ translation. So, the outward conduct of those whom Paul is speaking of in verse 21 indicates their inward spiritual status, that they are not born again of the Spirit, do not have the Holy Spirit within, and are not God's true children.
So then in verse 22, he makes a stark contrast regarding what the fruit of the Spirit is and then, in verse 24, clearly enunciates that those who belong to Christ Jesus ~ those who actually have been born again of the Spirit and have the Holy Spirit within and are God's true children ~ no longer make a practice of the works of the flesh because of the Spirit's work in the believer against the desires of the flesh, which Paul has just said in verse 17. Now, because we are not yet sin-free, we may fall into such things, as sin is still "crouching at our door" (Genesis 4:7) and "clings so closely" (ESV) or "so easily entangles us" (NASB) (Hebrews 12:1). But we do not make a practice of such things, but even hate sin and struggle against it, and again, this is because of the Spirit's having made us alive to God and working in us. And ultimately, the battle will be won, as "He Who began a good work in us will" ~ will ~ "bring it to completion at the Day of Christ" (Philippians 1:6). "We are more than conquerors through Him Who loved us, those of us in Christ Jesus, and nothing" ~ no thing ~ "in all creation" ~ not even we ourselves ~ "will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:37-39).
May the Spirit of all understanding be with you, Robert. Grace and peace to you.
I.e. when it gets to the devil in the details, you play your doctrinal carousel music, rather than answer with a simple yes or no. It speaks volumes that you people teach Christians are not condemned for doing what others do, but are to ashamed to say it plainly.
I was really looking for something of real substance from an OSAS believer, but in the end all you have is the same sodden meat of all unconditional OSAS.
I was hoping you wouldn't justify doing sinful works of the flesh, and only be ignorantly referring to imperfect and inglorious tempting thoughts, which are not sins in the first place. I could have then helped to perfect your teaching, so as not to actually teach that God does not condemn sinning by one person with a Christian name, but condemns another with a Muslim name, while doing the exact same thing.
I have concluded that all OSAS believers, in one form or another, simply teach unconditional salvation for casual Christian sinners, who are no more condemned for doing the same things the used to do, howbeit less often.
Do you really think you are better than other neighborly sinners, just because of all your flowery doctrine-speak? If we are doing a devilish work of the flesh, our lust of heart and sin of body stinks just as much as any other devilish sinner of the flesh.
You can cover Christian sinning in the flesh with grace perfume, but God is not mocked:
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
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And so the whole unconditional OSAS house of cards falls apart in the one principle lie, that Christians are not condemned, when they do what the condemned do. And what follows is all the usual nonsensical weird twisting of Scripture to try and keep the OSAS house afloat.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Those now in Christ Jesus are only those now walking in the Spirit and not doing works of the flesh. Therefore, so long as that walk continues in the Spirit and not after the flesh, they remain in Christ Jesus with no condemnation.
And OSAS teaches they will change and walk after the flesh again, much less it is only possible to.
The rallying cry of created christ believers and unconditional OSAS teachers: Watch now and see just how to change Scriptural truth into a lie, but diving into the Greek.
Walking after the flesh begins with the first step into doing a work of the flesh, not only after 6 or a dozen steps into it. Once doing a work of the flesh to steal, is enough to be called a thief, not the 6th or dozenth time. "Judge, I'm not a thief, because I only do steal from time to time."
For those who are walking after the Spirit and not doing a work of the flesh, whether committing adultery, robbery, murder, larceny, bearing false witness, bitter cursings...
God doesn't wait for practice to make perfect. He condemns the transgressor while transgressing, no matter how imperfectly.
OSAS teaches practicing sin one at a time, so as to learn how to perfect telling ourselves we have no condemnation while doing so.
OSAS is the perfect teaching tool for searing the conscience to sinning against Christ without conviction, condemnation, nor confession from the heart.
And here is the ultimate unconditional guarantee of the crown, whether at the beginning or at the end. Afterall, where's the battle when there is no condemnation for failing, falling, and losing to the devil by sinning?
How can any OSAS believer ever be separated from his crown, then there is no sin they do can ever be condemned?
The main devilish lie of unconditional OSAS is not so much declaring all Christians will walk after the flesh again and again, but rather that they are not condemned for walking after the flesh, so long as they believe they have the same no condemnation like them not walking after the flesh.
Saying there is now no condemnation for Christians that are now walking after the flesh, is the devil saying "Thou shalt not surely die" to Christian Adam and Eve.
Purposed removal of Scripture is too obvious when corrupting it.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Those now in Christ Jesus are only those now walking in the Spirit and not doing works of the flesh. Therefore, so long as that walk continues in the Spirit and not after the flesh, they remain in Christ Jesus with no condemnation.
And OSAS teaches they will change and walk after the flesh again, much less it is only possible to.
The rallying cry of created christ believers and unconditional OSAS teachers: Watch now and see just how to change Scriptural truth into a lie, but diving into the Greek.
Walking after the flesh begins with the first step into doing a work of the flesh, not only after 6 or a dozen steps into it. Once doing a work of the flesh to steal, is enough to be called a thief, not the 6th or dozenth time. "Judge, I'm not a thief, because I only do steal from time to time."
For those who are walking after the Spirit and not doing a work of the flesh, whether committing adultery, robbery, murder, larceny, bearing false witness, bitter cursings...
Which is those who actually are now walking in the Spirit and are not committing works of the flesh.
God doesn't wait for practice to make perfect. He condemns the transgressor while transgressing, no matter how imperfectly.
OSAS teaches practicing sin one at a time, so as to learn how to perfect telling ourselves we have no condemnation while doing so.
OSAS is the perfect teaching tool for searing the conscience to sinning against Christ without conviction, condemnation, nor confession from the heart.
And here is the ultimate unconditional guarantee of the crown, whether at the beginning or at the end. Afterall, where's the battle when there is no condemnation for failing, falling, and losing to the devil by sinning?
How can any OSAS believer ever be separated from his crown, then there is no sin they do can ever be condemned?
The main devilish lie of unconditional OSAS is not so much declaring all Christians will walk after the flesh again and again, but rather that they are not condemned for walking after the flesh, so long as they believe they have the same no condemnation like them not walking after the flesh.
Saying there is now no condemnation for Christians that are now walking after the flesh, is the devil saying "Thou shalt not surely die" to Christian Adam and Eve.
LOL! No, but He makes perfect what is not perfect despite its imperfection through the work of His Spirit. He is making us mature, lacking in nothing (James 1) and making all things new, including us (Revelation 21). But for each of us in this life, that is a work in progress, His work, which He brings to completion at the Day of Christ (Philippians 1:6). And our good works are both outward evidence of His work in us and essential to our ultimate salvation.
Not if they are in Christ, born again of the Spirit and in Christ, as Romans 8:1 clearly and irrefutably says. Now, He disciplines those whom He loves, but this is because He loves them. But, "(t)here is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." Romans 8:1 is what it is. Who, between you and me, Robert, is refuting Scripture here? Certainly not me; it's you, over and over and over again. Well, it can't be refuted. But hey, have at it! But certainly, it will come to nothing.
This misunderstanding of "OSAS" is precisely what you can't get past, Robert. "OSAS" is not "unconditional." But we meet those conditions because of His work in us. As Paul says in Ephesians 2, "we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we would walk in them."
Absolutely, unequivocally not, Robert. "OSAS" teaches that God will ensure, through the working of His Spirit in the believer, that that will not happen. And "OSAS" teaches that, Robert, because that's exactly what Scripture says. See above.
Wow. Such intransigence and lack of understanding both of Scripture and "OSAS." Just... wow.
Grace and peace to you, Robert. Despite your abject lack thereof.
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Saying transgression of law is not condemned, is no different in results from saying there is no law to transgress.
Anti-nomianism is an offense to the law of Christ, and anti-trasngressionism is lip-serve to the law of Christ.
A demand for responsibility becomes a hollow request, when there is no accountability for not fulfilling it.
Freedom to fail? Now there's a battle cry Patton would be proud of. Let's put it on the doorposts and the welcome mat for the devil.
It speaks for itself, that it even needs to be said, that there is no freedom nor liberty in Christ Jesus to fail, fall, and sin with the devil. If there was ever a license to sin, this is it.
The only freedom and liberty in Christ is to win and not sin with the devil.
In the race for the crown of righteousness, there is freedom to fail, but only the mercy to be restored. If we fail to run lawfully, then like all men on earth, we have a merciful advocate drawing us back to reconciliation with God, by godly confession and forgiveness of that sin that is not past.
There is no race, when not running the race results in victory.
OSAS does not treat the Lord Jesus Christ as a real Person, even as they only idolize His life as a man, that no one else can walk like.
A work of the flesh is falling short of Jesus' glory and virtue on earth, not a tempting inglorious thought, that is cast down to resist the devil, til he flees out of the way of the faithfully lawful runner.
OSAS imperfectionism of unkind thoughts, is excuse for works of the flesh.
Typical slippery OSAS: Trusting in ourselves is not the same as looking honestly at what we are doing.
Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
OSAS turns honest judgment of ourselves into trusting in ourselves, so that we ought not even look closely at what we are doing, whether it be for good or evil.
I suppose since there is no condemnation when doing evil anymore, acknowledging it with ourselves is a form of unbelief. Just like confessing a sin with godly sorrow, is unbelief in already being forgiven before sinning.
Fear and trembling of what? Condemnation for sinning? What fear, trembling, shame, or sin is there, where there is no condemnation from God?
OSAS has no fear of the Lord in their eyes, who see no condemnation while sinning against God:
Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith, I have done no wickedness.
This isn't so important, since what we are doing now is what we are justified in or condemned for. The past doesn't matter, so that only what we are doing at the end will obtain the crown of obedience, or fall short of the resurrection by sinning with the devil.
However, in the matter of now, speaking of when they went out, does not mean how they always were.
If a dear brother or sister turns from the faith, which I have known, I don't write them off as having been unbelieving dogs and pigs all along. I prefer to remember them as the saints they once were, and pray for them to return to godly confession and be restored to the faith of Jesus.
As I said, I was hoping to find something of real substance from you apart from the standard unconditional OSAS.
The only difference between you and the antinomian OSAS, is you think you are better than them, because you give lip-service to the law of Christ, by saying there is no condemnation while transgressing it.
So long as you are willing to say you are not condemned as others, while sinning like others, then there is no truth in you to work with: The principle great lie of all OSAS, is to say we are not condemned like others while sinning like others. If we are not condemned for sinning, then we did not sin.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Jesus Christ is not a respecter of persons and unjust judge, that condemns one transgressor but not another doing the same transgression.
Thou art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
The Jews cause the Gentiles to blaspheme God, by justifying themselves while doing the same as they, because they have the law and oracles of old, and now you Christians cause the unbelievers to blaspheme God, by justifying yourselves while doing the same as they, because you say you are under grace and have the Scriptures of the New.
I've added your flowery lies to the list of all OSAS, especially that great battle cry "We have freedom to fail!!" That must be the chant during celebration of grace. "Great is Diana of Ephesus!!"
Ah, now sin is condemned, Robert. You're changing your own argument here and don't even realize it, apparently. But the transgressor, if he/she is believer, if he/she is in Christ ~ the person ~ is not.
Okay, I'll accept that (as if I haven't before...), but the believer, who is in Christ, should be neither an antinomian or "anti-transgresstionist." And as for the latter, God, though the work of His Spirit in the believer, ensures that the believer is neither.
Well, God makes no requests. But there is certainly accountability, both now and ultimately.
And ultimately, that will fully be the case. God will see to it.
Okay, I'm done, here, Robert. You terribly misunderstand and thus terribly mischaracterize the very thing you keep ranting and raving against, because of your total intransigence and abject lack of humility, all of which is terribly sinful and totally opposite the example Christ set for us... absolutely unbecoming of a Christian. But if you want to live that way, that's your deal, my friend.
Grace and peace to you.
Once Saved Always Saved: it teaches that once a person believes they are saved by Jesus Christ, then they are always unconditionally saved forever, whether they are doing good or evil at the time.
There are very many teachings around it, and you can read Pinseeker on just how that is wrenched out of Scripture.
But, the cornerstone of it all is simple: Christians are no more judged and condemned by God, while sinning with the devil, as other nonchristians still are condemned by God.
If a nonchristian is getting drunk in a bar side by side with a Christian doing the same, then one is taken up and the other is left behind at the Lord's appearing.
Since it is such an offensive and God-awful insult to normal intelligence, if I were the Lord, I'd take up the nonchristian drunkard, that is at least not hypocritically defiling my name. I'd leave the Christian drunkard alone, to continue telling himself how uncondemned he is.
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Ah, so Scripture itself is of no substance to you. Gotcha.
Such a terrible misunderstanding and misrepresentation of true "OSAS." Precisely your problem, Robert. The very reason you can't get out of and past yourself.
Grace and peace to you, Robert.
Ahh, and so finally the ol' soul separation card. The sin is condemned, but not the soul, because it is only the body now sinning on it's own. Other souls however are condemned for their sinning with the body.
The difference between the souls sinning, is the honest and sane one knows he sinned with his body, while the delusional one says he has not sinned, but only his body.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
I'm sorry you've run out of new OSAS gems, but I'm sure there will be others elsewhere. I really don't think the pit of OSAS has a bottom to it.
And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
