Does God expect us to obey the hundreds of NT commands on day one of our service to be saved?

[mailmandan]

So you believe you are forever saved by a belief alone...

I believe that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1-2)

then if that is the case... then how you live does not matter. Good works do not matter.

I never said it does not matter how I live and works do not matter. That is a straw man argument and it also explains your motivation for doing works. You believe that you are going to save yourself based on the merits of how you live by your works. Good works glorify God (Matthew 5:16) and they are good and profitable to men (Titus 3:8) so they do matter. Those who have been saved by grace through faith are created in Christ Jesus for/unto good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)

In fact, we know this kind of belief will just lead you to doing good works mingled with evil works because this kind of belief can make a person to easily think they can sin and still be saved. For the threat of a believer not seeing good works in their life should scare them that their saving faith was not genuine (even when they thought it was), and they will have to go back and repent again and or believe on Jesus again (as if they did not do it right or something). Imagine if you tell a child that works do not save, and then you never get to see them again, and they ended up being Hyper Grace based on your words. Their blood will be on your hands because your words will lead them to conclude the Hyper Grace position that works do not save. The errors of your belief here are numerous not to mention it seeks to attack the plain reading of Scripture.

Oh brother. There is just no end to your straw man arguments and your eisegesis. The errors of your belief leave you on a roller coaster ride of fear and bondage to IN-security and seeking to save yourself based on the merits of your works. Good luck with that!

Of all the chapters you need to pay attention in... this is the big one that you miss.
If you read Acts 15:1, Acts 15:5, and Acts 15:24, you will realize that there a certain sect of Jews who thought they had to be circumcised to be initially saved and to keep the Law of Moses (i.e. the 613 Laws of Moses). If you were to keep this in the back of your mind as you read Paul, then a lot of what he says will begin to make more sense (Especially when Paul sprinkles in those mysterious phrases on circumcision). Galatians 5:2 says that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. So Paul was fighting against the heresy of those who thought they had to FIRST be circumcised in order to be initially saved. So when Paul condemns the law or works in a generic sense pay attention to which Law Paul is referring to in context. You will find that Paul condemns the OLD Law, and not the New Covenant laws of Jesus Christ. For if Paul condemned the laws of Christ, he would have been proud knowing nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

That Paul was dealing with a certain sect of Jews in Acts 15 still does not change the fact that we need to hear the word of the gospel and BELIEVE and that our hearts are purified by FAITH. (Acts 15:7-9) It's not believe the gospel + works or hearts purified by faith + works.

Anyways, Acts 15:7 is merely contrasting the problem of circumcision for initial salvation vs. first being saved by God's grace through faith (Which is a process of salvation without works). It's not claiming that you have a blanket ban of forgiveness and so now you don't need to worry about doing anything for the Lord or not worry about living in some kind of sin. If you are forgiven of future sin, then how you live really does not matter. Talk of works being evidence of your faith would be pointless then and it would only seek to confuse the issue if one really and truly believes works do not save.

Good grief you are so confused and you are also so focused on works and trying to suppress sin in your life that you have taken your eyes off the cross completely. It's all about YOU. For me, it's all about CHRIST. (1 Corinthians 1:18-21)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I couldn't have said it any better. Your words here reflect my idea of the life of a Christian I think exactly. There actually is a middle ground between the lawlessness which typically goes along with the idea of once saved always saved and the shallowness which holiness is regarded in the idea of sinless perfection.

As for OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved):

This type of belief will lead a believer to treat grace as a license to sin on some level. While not all OSAS folk are Hyper Grace (in that they believe that they can live in excessive amounts of sin as a way of life like say: Fornication, murder, theft, etcetera., and claim to be saved by a belief alone in Jesus), when push comes to shove, I have gotten the Non-Hyper Grace OSAS believer to admit they can sin and still be saved on some smaller level. Some believe you can commit suicide and be saved. Some believe you can take the mark of the beast and be saved. Others believe that a Christian who goes prodigal into a lifestyle of sin is still saved. Others have denied that confessing sins does not relate to our forgiveness (in regards to our salvation). The problem at the heart is in justifying sin on some level.

Then there is the Free Will Baptist believers:

They claim that they are not OSAS because they believe the only way you can fall away is by rejecting Jesus later. But they don’t believe sin separates them from God while they justify sin and therein lies the problem. They think they can willfully set out to sin and be saved. This is turning God’s grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4) (NIV) (Note: The KJB says, “turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness,”; Lasciviousness is defined at KingJamesBibleDictionary as: looseness, lustfulness, tendency to excite lust, etc. source).

As for Sinless Perfection:

While I don’t see a Christian not reaching a state of Sinless Perfection as a salvation issue, I believe it is possible for a Christian to reach a state of “Sinless Perfection,” but it takes the Sanctification Process of the Holy Spirit to get there. That’s the goal and aim of our Sanctification in this life. Believers should be desiring desperately to cease from all sin their life as a part of pleasing their Lord and because He is their Master and because they want to honor His sacrifice and love that He has given to them. For if it is not a complete selling out of ourselves to the Lord, then we are holding back something in being our own lords and masters. Christians are supposed to be slaves to righteousness, and not slaves to sin. For the slave to sin will not abide in the house forever (i.e. they will not abide in the house of Christ forever) (See: John 8:34-35, and then read Matthew 13:41-43).

In the New Testament, the Christian life is described as a fight, a race. A believer who was actually a long way in their sanctification would never, never describe themselves as such because they realize it is not of their own doing, but as God has revealed (I believe it is in Philippians), it is Christ working in us (so, proof number one that the sanctification process is not as far as they see it in their own eyes: lack of knowledge of scripture).

In one sense, I can see what you mean, but in another sense, I don’t think that is the case, either. Believers are told to endure to the end to be saved. The prize at the end of the running of the race is the crown of righteousness given to us in Heaven. Our ultimate prize is Jesus Christ (in being with Him in the Kingdom). I believe that when Paul said, “I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:” (2 Timothy 4:7), I believe Paul was soon facing death or martyrdom for his faith. I believe Paul said in 1 Corinthians 9:27 the following:

“But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.” (1 Corinthians 9:27).

In other words, when Paul was writing to the Corinthians, he believed he could be a cast away if he did not keep his body under subjection (i.e. to continue to crucify the affections and lusts; For they that are Christ’s have crucified the affections and lusts - Galatians 5:24).

Anyways, I would highly recommend checking out the following Christian film called: “Polycarp” if you have not seen it.
It really is inspirational to show the dedication that the early church had to the Lord Jesus (unlike today whereby many simply see Jesus as a means to clap their hands together in song in that He has taken away their sin with no real concern about the real danger of sin in that it can condemn our souls if we go back to it).

Also, the believer whom God has conformed more closely to himself than others who are further back in this process, the remaining corruption within themselves (even if it is a very small amount) would be very great in his or her own eyes and God himself can abide no sin, none at all--all of it, even the smallest amount--is an abomination to him. The remaining imperfection would cause them to feel still very far from God (Paul described himself as "chief amongst sinners"; I believe we can all pretty much come to an agreement that the Lord had sanctified this servant of his to a really high degree in his life. I don't feel I am going way out on a limb to say that if any of us had the walk with the Lord which Paul had we would think to ourselves, "If I could live like that, I would feel that I'm like just about perfect". But Paul himself didn't feel that way or regard himself in that way).

When Paul basically said he was the chief of sinners in 1 Timothy 1:15, he was referring to his past old life when he persecuted the church of God.
For Paul said of his old life in verse 13, “Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious:” (1 Timothy 1:13).

Thank you for expressing in a Biblically accurate way the struggle against sin in the life of a Christian.

While I do not deny that legitimate Christians can struggle with sin, the point of the OP or thread topic was not about struggling with sin but it was a point on the progressive Sanctification of the Holy Spirit to live a holy life (in cleansing themselves continually and perfecting themselves continually). The point of the topic was to refute those believers today who justify sin and think they are saved solely by a belief alone on Jesus as their Savior their whole lives when that simply is not the case. Christians need to work out their salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). Jesus said ”Strive to enter the straight gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.” (Luke 13:24).

That good works do not matter at all can not be a position held by any Bible-believing Christian (not that that is your position). God has prepared good works for us to act out here in this life. While we are still living here as believers, the Lord has a purpose here for us and that is to glorify him. If we are indeed believers that should entail serving the Lord by showing others his love for as Jesus said, "If you love me, obey my commandments". Such works, though they do nothing by the way of earning our salvation, are proof to ourselves and to others (in one of the epistles, the apostle says, "I will show you my faith by my works") that we are in fact children of God and not of the devil.

I disagree. This is a contradictory Protestant saying. While I am Bible Alone, and while I am strongly against Catholicism, and Orthodox churches, etcetera, if “works of faith” do not in any play a part in our salvation, then one does not have to do any kind of works their whole lives and they can just believe in Jesus and be saved. If works are evidence of your faith and or evidence that you are a child of God, then the works are indeed required as a part of the salvation equation because you cannot be barren of good works and be saved by a belief alone in Jesus. You cannot have no evidence that you are a saved child of God or in having a true faith that saves. Only the Hyper Grace crowd who believes they are saved by solely by a belief alone in Jesus for salvation and nothing else will take pride in doing NO works of any kind for salvation. The Hyper Grace Christian is truly being consistent in their belief in saying that works do not save (Although it is still a grave error of turning God’s grace into a license for immorality).

Hebrews 11 describes faith as both a belief (Hebrews 11:3), and it describes faith as doing something. By faith Noah prepared an ark to the saving of his household (Hebrews 11:7). If Noah had a belief alone and he never built the ark, he would have perished in the global flood. Noah’s faith in building the ark saved him. His work of faith saved him. It was a part of his faith. That’s what many here are ignoring.

I believe that when Paul says we are not saved by works in Ephesians 2:9, and Titus 3:5, he is referring to our Initial Salvation in how we are first saved by God’s grace as means to combat and fight against the heresy of Circumcision Salvation as mentioned in Acts 15:1, Acts 15:5, Acts 15:24 (Please also see Galatians 5:2, Galatians 2:3, Romans 3:1, Romans 2:25-29).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I couldn't have said it any better. Your words here reflect my idea of the life of a Christian I think exactly. There actually is a middle ground between the lawlessness which typically goes along with the idea of once saved always saved and the shallowness which holiness is regarded in the idea of sinless perfection. In the New Testament, the Christian life is described as a fight, a race. A believer who was actually a long way in their sanctification would never, never describe themselves as such because they realize it is not of their own doing, but as God has revealed (I believe it is in Philippians), it is Christ working in us (so, proof number one that the sanctification process is not as far as they see it in their own eyes: lack of knowledge of scripture).

Also, the believer whom God has conformed more closely to himself than others who are further back in this process, the remaining corruption within themselves (even if it is a very small amount) would be very great in his or her own eyes and God himself can abide no sin, none at all--all of it, even the smallest amount--is an abomination to him. The remaining imperfection would cause them to feel still very far from God (Paul described himself as "chief amongst sinners"; I believe we can all pretty much come to an agreement that the Lord had sanctified this servant of his to a really high degree in his life. I don't feel I am going way out on a limb to say that if any of us had the walk with the Lord which Paul had we would think to ourselves, "If I could live like that, I would feel that I'm like just about perfect". But Paul himself didn't feel that way or regard himself in that way).

Thank you for expressing in a Biblically accurate way the struggle against sin in the life of a Christian.



That good works do not matter at all can not be a position held by any Bible-believing Christian (not that that is your position). God has prepared good works for us to act out here in this life. While we are still living here as believers, the Lord has a purpose here for us and that is to glorify him. If we are indeed believers that should entail serving the Lord by showing others his love for as Jesus said, "If you love me, obey my commandments". Such works, though they do nothing by the way of earning our salvation, are proof to ourselves and to others (in one of the epistles, the apostle says, "I will show you my faith by my works") that we are in fact children of God and not of the devil.

Picture two men cleaning a really huge dirty bowl or vase that is white.

One man cleans with the intention of putting away the dirt.

The second man cleans with the intention of thinking that there will always be some kind of dirt he will never get off the item. He may believe pollution and or dust in the air will just keep getting on the vase and so why bother to clean the item completely. He sees the cleaning of the vase or bowl completely as a futile effort even though he does so anyways (while leaving some dirt on the bowl or vase).

This is how I see my position vs. the position of those in popular Christianity.
For the average Christian today does not believe 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 8:13, Galatians 5:8-9 applies to them or they have sought to re-write these verses to mean something else because they don’t like them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Ephesians 2:10 does not say that you are saved for good works. That’s another nonsensical imaginary Protestant saying. The text simply says we are created unto Christ Jesus for good works and that we should walk in them. But you say that works do not save and then you contradict yourself and say that works will be evidence of a saving faith. Again, you are not being true to your statement of saying that works do not save. If works do not save, then you need NO works to be saved ever in your lifetime. But if works are evidence of your faith that saves, then you need to have works as a part of the salvation equation because you cannot have no works that are lived out in your faith with you claiming you are saved unless you just recently switched to the Hyper Grace camp.

Keep reading in Ephesians and it says this:

Ephesians 5:3-7 (NKJV)
“But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.”

I don't deny the proper interpretation of these verses above. I only deny your 'eisegesis.' Yes, the list of your 'misinterpreted' verses does go on and on.

That’s rich seeing you don’t believe these verses at face value in what they plainly say.
Like before, you changed the text in Hebrews 11:17 to say, “Out of faith” instead of simply believing it when it says, “By faith…”;
This merely shows your handling of the text is not honest and you will cheat if necessary to change the text to certain words you prefer when it does not agree with your theology (even when no dictionary supports you).

You see that a man is justified (shown to be righteous) by works, and not by (and empty profession of faith/dead) faith that remains alone (barren of works - James 2:14). You fail to understand that James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came through faith.

I am wondering if you just hit your head and forgot what I believe or you are just mindlessly copying and pasting from your database again without catering it to the person you are actually talking to.

Again… I believe we are saved by:

#1. God’s grace through faith without works in our Initial Salvation (Which is what Paul talks a lot about) (Ephesians 2:8-9, etc.).
#2. The Sanctification of the Spirit (that follows) (2 Thessalonians 2:13, etc.). This would be when our faith is being lived out whereby James is referring to how we need to have works of faith to show us our faith or as a part of our faith (Which saves).​

So again, I am NOT saying we are saved by a work of faith in our initial act of being accounted righteous with God. I don’t believe that. Your words here would be in reference to a member of the Church of Christ or a Catholic, and not me. No offense. I love you in Christ, but if you are failing to continue to hear me properly, it is no wonder that you are not hearing the Word of God correctly, as well.

All I can do is encourage you to get away from Protestants and their imaginary sayings for a while and just get in the Bible alone and accept what it says plainly with the help of God alone.

So how much obedience/works does it take? The act of obedience that saves is choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16) yet I see that you believe in your works (and not in Christ alone) for salvation, which is NOT a part of the gospel.

Yes, works of faith are not the gospel, but the CALL of the gospel is… God has chosen you to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). The righteousness of God is revealed in the gospel from the beginning of your faith, to the end of your faith. The righteousness of God is not only believing first so that righteousness can be accounted to us (imputed to us), but the righteousness of God that is revealed is also doing righteousness so as to be righteous, too (1 John 3:7). God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

As for your question:

I already told you to look at Matthew 25:21 before and you did not seem to be satisfied with that answer.
Believers need to be faithful over a few things to enter into the joy of their Lord.
But you don’t believe that.

To live by faith has nothing to do with salvation by works.

It’s not salvation by works alone. It’s faith. Faith involves believing certain doctrines in God’s Word and faith involves doing what He says (Which includes the good works He wants you to do). Romans 3:27 says boasting is excluded in regards to the faith. So this means that the type of works in Ephesians 2:9 is in reference to works done outside of the faith because boasting is mentioned. This makes sense because Paul was fighting against the heresy of Circumcision Salvationism in many of his letters (Which lines up with the description of this heresy in Acts 15, see again verse 1, verse 5, and verse 24).

 

[Daydreamer]

How many works must one do as proof they have saving faith, does anyone know?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Titus 3:9 says,
“But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.”

 

[Daydreamer]

I mean, how do you know if you have done enough works to get to heaven. Is one enough? Or ten? fifty? One hundred? It seems to me, if no one knows the answer, how can they have any assurance they will enter heaven?

 

[Daydreamer]

Possibly some believe their ''works'' are telling others they will be or remain justified by obeying applicable new covenant law. What is the pass mark of obedience to remain justified? Only, those who believe their ''work'' might be to tell you justification is by obeying applicable law don't even try to obey many of those laws themselves. Possibly they believe the pass mark is extremely low

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Anyone who reads the Bible and has been transformed by it knows they should be sold out to Christ and in living for Him instead of themselves. Those who seek to justify sin under God’s grace are never really going to understand (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Matthew 25:21 says that the servant who was faithful over a few things was told to enter the joy of their Lord.
Matthew 25:30 says that the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness. Why? Well, they were not told it was because they did not believe in the finished work of the cross, but because the servant was wicked and lazy. So if one is unprofitable, it’s because they are wicked and lazy.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

James 2:24 (Berean Literal Bible)
“You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.”

This would be faith lived out, and not in our faith involving our initial salvation in being saved by God’s grace (of which Paul talks about).

 

[Daydreamer]

Anyone who reads the Bible and has been transformed by it knows they should be sold out to Christ and in living for Him instead of themselves. Those who seek to justify sin under God’s grace are never really going to understand (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Matthew 25:21 says that the servant who was faithful over a few things was told to enter the joy of their Lord.
Matthew 25:30 says that the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness. Why? Well, they were not told it was because they did not believe in the finished work of the cross, but because the servant was wicked and lazy. So if one is unprofitable, it’s because they are wicked and lazy.

As you spend nearly all your spare time on the internet insisting others obey applicable nt law to remain justified, when you don't even try and obey many of those laws yourself. Would you say that is a good example of being sold out for Christ and living for him?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

Many will attempt to make false accusations based on their brainwashing from Protestantism. They don’t really read and believe all of the Scriptures. They change them to suit their own ends. They turn God’s grace into a license for immorality of which Jude 1:4 warns us against.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

John the Baptist was against Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism. He said to the Pharisees “do not think to say within yourselves we have Abraham our father.” For they thought they were saved by simply being sons of Abraham.

For it is written:

“Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father...”
(Matthew 3:8-9).​

Jesus was against Perpetual Belief Alone-ism.

The Pharisees said,

“...Abraham is our father.”​

Jesus said unto them,

“If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.” (John 8:39).​

So if you want to know that God is against Perpetual Belief Alone-ism, just remember the number 39.

Matthew 3:9.
John 8:39.

 

[Daydreamer]

Of course, we must remember, Jesus reserved his harshest words for the religious who did not practice what they preached/demanded of others.

 

[Daydreamer]

I wonder which God would prefer. Works done out of love and gratitude for a free salvation and security by faith in His Son. Or, works done with the view they would better entitle you to enter heaven.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Bible determines the truth on…

#1. Works done out of worldly love while one justifies sin and or unfruitfulness (Under God’s grace) (i.e. Perpetual Belief Alone-ism), vs.
#2. Works done out of love and as a part of the faith in glorifying God’s grace (See: Titus 2:11-12, Ephesians 5:25-27).

 

[Daydreamer]

I really do not understand how someone who spends their life on debating websites can so much stress works as part of salvation/justification. Will that work be accepted as the true works God desires?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

Christians are to be encouraging other believers to do good works constantly.

Titus 3:8
“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.”

Why?

Titus 3:14 says,
“And also let our people learn to devote themselves to good works for necessary needs, so that they should not be unfruitful.”

So that one will not be unfruitful.
Remember what happened to the unprofitable servant in Matthew 25:30?
He was a servant but he was unfruitful and he was cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

Some do not understand why we fight the good fight of faith even (because they don’t actually believe all of the Bible).

2 Timothy 4:2 says,
“Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.”

 

[Daydreamer]

Are christians really called to tell others they are justified by obeying applicable law when they do not even try and obey much of that law themselves. I suppose, if you enjoy nothing more than putting up long posts, of the literal letter, you might try and convince yourself that is the good works required of you. I'm not convinced