Does God expect us to obey the hundreds of NT commands on day one of our service to be saved?

[mailmandan]

Yes, I should have clarified that better. You are correct. I should have explained more clearly what this passage was about. I did not go into the depth on this passage. But it does reference the real with the fake. Paul compares this false other gospel to the real thing to begin with. It says it is not another gospel at all. It is a non-existence other gospel. But yes, this passage does reference another false gospel. We both believe the gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (in that we must believe that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and risen the third day). This gospel does save us and it continues to save us by our continuance in believing in it. Where we disagree is on 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 8:13, 2 Corinthians 7:1.

It's not enough to simply believe "mental assent" that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened." Even the devil believes that. We must also trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL SUFFICIENT means of our salvation. That is what it means to "believe" the gospel. (Romans 1:16) Through eisegesis, you turn sanctification into "type 2 works salvation." Salvation by works and sinless perfection is not a part of the gospel that saves.

If my memory serves me correctly, I think you believe that the Parable of the Sower in Luke 8:13 is in reference to fake nominal believers and not true believers. But again, those who fall away because they have no root and they believe for a while shows that they did not have root in God’s Word and therefore, they only believed genuinely for a while. They fell away from the faith. In fact, the parable says that in time of temptation they fell away. If they never were saved to begin with then they could not fall away from anything.

People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation. Unlike saving belief, temporary, shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? Faith without works is dead, right? Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they are not saved.

John has portrayed people who "believe" (at least to some extent) but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe unto salvation" and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18) but were instead children of the devil.

They were growing plants and one of the plants (front he seed planted) was choked by thorns (i.e. the riches and cares of this life). You cannot choke a dead plant that has no life. The plant had life showing it was saved and had eternal life at one time.

In regards to the seed that is sown among thorns, the person hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful, produces nothing, yields nothing. It was choked out before reaching it's desired goal. IN CONTRAST TO - the seed that fell on good soil, the person hears the word and understands it, who INDEED BEARS FRUIT with patience (perseverance) and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty. *All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23)

1 Timothy 6:10 says,
“For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.”

We see that we can err from the faith by coveting after riches (for the love of money is the root of all evil).

Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

I am not Catholic. What they believe repulses me because they partake of extra biblical sacraments. My belief is derived purely from the Bible itself. Take for example Romans 10:17. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. The whole of your New Testament is a part of the faith. You cannot cut out certain parts of the New Testament and say they are not a part of the faith. You have to believe ALL of it by faith. The whole Bible is to be believed by faith. If not you are being an unbeliever in the Bible. Some people reject certain books of the Bible. This would be unbelief because they are not believing those words are from God. You want to dissect out parts of the Bible like works and say that it is not a part of the faith when the whole of the New Testament is a part of the faith for us to believe in. That’s what is silly about your belief here.

There is a difference between what is part of salvic faith in Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16) and what is part of "the faith" (Gr. tês pisteôs) the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. I reject neither.

CONTINUED...

 

[mailmandan]

James 2:23-24 says,
“Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”

You misinterpret this to mean that Abraham was saved by works. Roman Catholics make the same error. In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Once again, Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

Abraham was justified by works by offering up Isaac (James 2:21).

Yes, Abraham was justified (shown to be righteous) by works but Abraham was not justified (accounted as righteous) by works. (Romans 4:2-3) Big difference!

By faith Abraham offered up Isaac (Hebrews 11:17).

Yes, by or "out of" faith Abraham offered up Isaac.

Abraham believed God and it was imputed to him for righteousness (James 2:23).

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.”

This was in regards to Abraham test of faith in offering up Isaac. Abraham believed God by offering Isaac upon the altar and it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. You absolutely refuse to acknowledge that.

Then in verse 24, James says you see then how works is a man justified and not by faith (belief) only (or by faith alone).

Yet James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works" (James 2:14) and not authentic faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) You just cannot seem to grasp this. Neither can Roman Catholics. By works a man is justified (shown to be righteous) and not by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains barren of works.

In fact, the only place in the Bible that talks about faith alone is a point about how you are not supposed to have faith alone (When it comes to living out your faith).

Roman Catholics and other works-salvationists make this same argument. Again, James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works" (James 2:14) and not authentic faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Big difference!

The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

You don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO! So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Until you understand sin is spoken of in two different ways in the bible, I think it is you who has sin in the wrong perspective

I have corrected your wrong view using the Bible on 2 Corinthians 3:3, or 2 Corinthians 3:6 in that you imply that we believers are not to read the Bible in a literal way (when it’s not saying that). Most Protestants would not agree with you on this one. This falls dangerously close to the liberal approach in interpreting the Bible. A person can make the Bible say whatever they like by this type of interpretive method and nobody ever truly be proven wrong.

I also corrected your wrong willful sin and still be saved viewpoint that follows the popular wide gate path of Protestantism (i.e. the second largest branch of Christianity - with close to 1 billion adherents). Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life, and few be there that find it. 1 billion does not sound like the narrow way to me. In fact, there are tons of warnings in the Bible against sin in how it can condemn our souls in the afterlife, and there are warnings to the church to be faithful or they are not going to make it. To ignore these warnings means one is not reading the Bible at face value and believing it.

I believe these are serious errors you hold to. Seeing you have not chosen to properly explain the verses I have put forth to you on these points we have discussed, I believe it is best for us to agree to disagree and for us to move on. Only God and His Word can open your eyes to the truth on these things we have discussed. If I feel it is necessary, I may address content by you at random in an indirect way (like: Addressing a message to everyone here). I say this because I believe your views are heretical according to the Bible. I love you in Jesus, but I don’t love your beliefs that are unbiblical.

Unless I forget (by some odd chance), this will be my last direct post to you (addressing you specifically). I will seek to avoid your posts and if I do see something written by you that needs to be addressed so as to protect others into following your errors, I will address it in a general way to all people here (and I will strive to not quote your post or address you specifically).

Anyways, peace and love to you in the name of Jesus Christ (even if we disagree strongly on the Bible).

 

[Daydreamer]

I have corrected your wrong view using the Bible on 2 Corinthians 3:3, or 2 Corinthians 3:6 in that you imply that we believers are not to read the Bible in a literal way (when it’s not saying that). Most Protestants would not agree with you on this one. This falls dangerously close to the liberal approach in interpreting the Bible. A person can make the Bible say whatever they like by this type of interpretive method and nobody ever truly be proven wrong.

I also corrected your wrong willful sin and still be saved viewpoint that follows the popular wide gate path of Protestantism (i.e. the second largest branch of Christianity - with close to 1 billion adherents). Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life, and few be there that find it. 1 billion does not sound like the narrow way to me. In fact, there are tons of warnings in the Bible against sin in how it can condemn our souls in the afterlife, and there are warnings to the church to be faithful or they are not going to make it. To ignore these warnings means one is not reading the Bible at face value and believing it.

I believe these are serious errors you hold to. Seeing you have not chosen to properly explain the verses I have put forth to you on these points we have discussed, I believe it is best for us to agree to disagree and for us to move on. Only God and His Word can open your eyes to the truth on these things we have discussed. If I feel it is necessary, I may address content by you at random in an indirect way (like: Addressing a message to everyone here). I say this because I believe your views are heretical according to the Bible. I love you in Jesus, but I don’t love your beliefs that are unbiblical.

Peace and love to you in the name of Jesus Christ.

So when you sin it isnt wilfull sin? I guess then you are a slave to sin, sin totally controls your life so you have no power or ability to stop sinning. OK, thank you for sorting that out.
As for 2Cor3:6, Paul plain as day states the letter that kills is the law engraved in stone, nine of which laws you believe are applicable for christians today. So now who refuses to take verses literally!!!
2Cor3:3 confirms the new covenant at its core. The law is now in the hearts and minds of believers. And yet, you dont seem to know what law that is, so you do studies to try and discover what it is. Don't you know in your mind what is in your mind?
You saying you corrected my errors did make me smile
OK, you look at scripture literally by taking it randomly:
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us 1John1:8
No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. 1John3:6
Now you're introuble aren't you!

Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Gal5:24
So as you still commit sin I take it you do not believe you belong to Christ.
Im sorry, but your posts are riddled with errors and an abject lack of being able to discern the truth written in scripture. Your questions to me yesterday concerning Rom7:7-11 highlight that very well.

Please remember, the pharisees of Jesus day did nothing but quote the letter of scripture, but that did not mean they understood the message contained in it did they.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Catholic card here has absolute merit in regards to "adding" works "into" faith. Regardless of what else Catholics got right, both you and Catholics have the gospel wrong.

The Catholics do not believe the gospel like I do.

Catholics say this about the gospel:

“The Gospel – All of It

Those who hang out in Protestant circles probably have a quick, easy description of the gospel: That Jesus died on the cross to save us from our sins.

That is not untrue – but also not the whole story.

Jesus did not take on human flesh merely as a substitution for the rest of us. It’s not as if He suffered and struggled so that we could avoid suffering, but rather, so that we could embrace suffering with Him.”​

Source:
What Exactly Is “The Gospel”? - Catholic Stand

I believe the gospel is this:

“Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:” (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

The gospel at it’s core is Jesus Christ. The gospel (Jesus) can help us to endure to the end. The gospel (Jesus) can help us to fear Him, and worship Him, and give properly glory to Him. But the full gospel is… 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Believing this message is a part of our Initial Salvation and it is Foundational to our Salvation. We have to keep believing this message as a part of the faith for salvation all the way until the end of our faith.

You wrote a lot in reply rather quickly. Is most of what you wrote pre-written responses saved on digital document? Granted, I have many of my own works written down on Google docs on many theological issues that I share here. I know your hope is to overwhelm me in the fact that I will not reply back, but that’s not going to happen. The false unbiblical doctrine that you are promoting must be opposed because it is not only unbiblical but it leads men to justify sin and to be lazy in their faith and to treat sin as no more dangerous as a fluffy kitten. So Lord willing, I will reply (with the Bible), but it will take time for me to do so. So please be patient.

Side Note:

Oh, by the way, while we are saved by believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, we also have to answer the call of the gospel, too. (*Important Note: This is the CALL of the gospel and NOT the actual gospel). This call of the gospel (2 Thessalonians 2:14) is found in 2 Thessalonians 2:13. This call of the gospel is defined as…. God has chosen you to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth. So it is a secondary aspect of salvation after you are saved by the gospel. You have to live holy as a part of the Sanctification of the Spirit for eternal life (Romans 8:13, Galatians 6:8-9) and it is intertwined or connected with believing other core foundational doctrines of the faith that are salvific like believing in the Godhead (Trinity), the bodily resurrection, etcetera. Granted, a person can be initially saved without believing the Trinity, but once that truth is revealed to them by Scripture, they cannot reject that truth (and be saved).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

From beginning "have been" (past tense, with ongoing present results) saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works. Period. Justification is not a process. Romans 5:1 - Therefore, "having been" justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Salvation is a gift that is received through faith. We don't work for the gift. We freely receive it. Ephesians 2:8 - For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God. (AMPC)

Galatians 1:6-9 is in reference to a "different" gospel, a perverted gospel.

Saving faith continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. Unfortunately, there are those who may fail to hold fast to the word which Paul preached to them and end up believing in vain. (1 Corinthians 15:1-2) To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose.

Now you sound like a Roman Catholic and sure enough (here comes the works!) Compare your bolded, underlined statement above with what a Roman Catholic said to me during a similar discussion: We are saved by faith as long as you properly define "faith." Faith is not simply "believing". Faith includes: (here comes the works!) Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc.. Just like Roman Catholics, you try to "shoe horn" works "into" faith and simply call it "faith," even though it's faith "and" works.

What you fail to understand (and this remains your achilles heel) is that James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Simple.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

It was "by" or "out of" faith that Abraham offered up Isaac and this certainly was the evidence of Abraham's faith and not the origin of it. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

Yes, Romans 5:1 says that we are justified by faith and this faith is in Christ. There is a difference between being justified "by" or "through" faith in Christ then AFTERWARDS, performing a good work "by" or "out of" faith. We have access by faith into this grace and not by faith "and works." Your stumbling block of confusion that culminates in salvation by faith "and works" is the same stumbling block of confusion that I experienced prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church.

Sadly, the workers can't get out of their own way. They refuse to see their works are as bloody rags and will not remove 1 sin from their account..

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If one is anti-works for salvation, then it can lead people to simply justify sin under God’s grace. So the option is sinners instead of good workers. I would rather be a good worker under God’s grace than remaining a sinner under God’s grace. While there is hope for a believer who has stumbled into sin, they cannot remain in their sins and be saved or justify sin. Believers need to confess and forsake their sins to have mercy (Proverbs 28:13).

Titus 2:11-12 says God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world.

Many in Christianity do not like what Titus 2:11-12 says.
They just clap their hands and sing mindlessly about a false grace amongst each other and ignore these kinds of verses.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, the Parable of the Talents is highly offensive to many Perpetual Belief Alone Salvation Protestant churches today, as well.
Any person who is honest with themselves in reading that parable will not conclude Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism. That’s what dumb about Protestant Belief Alone Salvationism. They just choose to make up their own theology despite what the Bible says.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Again, I already demonstrated by Scripture to you this truth. Read the parable of the Prodigal Son if you don't believe me. The father says he was DEAD and he is alive AGAIN. This is speaking in spiritual terms. The father also said he was lost, and now he is found. Again, this is speaking in spiritual terms. Then read James 5:19-20. It says the same thing! But I am sure you will just not bother to read these verses. If you do, I am sure your end game goal would be to try and change them to say something else because you don't like what they say at face value.

No this is speaking in a Jewish euphemism. The son was not spiritually dead- but dead to his family and was not lost spiritually, but lost to his family. Jesus said He gives us eternal life and we will never perish!
Th eprodigal son did not have to become a son all over again, he still was a son of his father (saved). Once you enter the family of god you are fmaily forever.

Just like a human family, we can disown a son and call him dead to us, but he will always remain a son. You cannot change genetics.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No this is speaking in a Jewish euphemism. The son was not spiritually dead- but dead to his family and was not lost spiritually, but lost to his family. Jesus said He gives us eternal life and we will never perish!
Th eprodigal son did not have to become a son all over again, he still was a son of his father (saved). Once you enter the family of god you are fmaily forever.

Just like a human family, we can disown a son and call him dead to us, but he will always remain a son. You cannot change genetics.

So you want to take the gamble of your soul on a euphemism? Lost generally characterizes one not being saved in the New Testament. Just look up the word in the NT at blue letter Bible.

 

[mailmandan]

The Catholics do not believe the gospel like I do.

Difference in style, but same in substance - "works based false gospel" - just as I pointed out in post #112.

Catholics say this about the gospel:

“The Gospel – All of It

Those who hang out in Protestant circles probably have a quick, easy description of the gospel: That Jesus died on the cross to save us from our sins.

That is not untrue – but also not the whole story.

Jesus did not take on human flesh merely as a substitution for the rest of us. It’s not as if He suffered and struggled so that we could avoid suffering, but rather, so that we could embrace suffering with Him.”​

Source:
What Exactly Is “The Gospel”? - Catholic Stand

I did not find 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 in that article yet the article claims:

The Gospel – All of It
Those who hang out in Protestant circles probably have a quick, easy description of the gospel: That Jesus died on the cross to save us from our sins. That is not untrue – but also not the whole story. Then comes the works.

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works (and so do you)

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works

I believe the gospel is this:

“Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:” (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

Again, to "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL SUFFICIENT means of our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and not merely believe "mental assent" that His death, burial and resurrection "happened."

The gospel at it’s core is Jesus Christ. The gospel (Jesus) can help us to endure to the end. The gospel (Jesus) can help us to fear Him, and worship Him, and give properly glory to Him. But the full gospel is… 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Believing this message is a part of our Initial Salvation and it is Foundational to our Salvation. We have to keep believing this message as a part of the faith for salvation all the way until the end of our faith.

Every time I hear someone say "full gospel" then here come the works! Believing the gospel is not a temporary belief that is in vain and believing the gospel does not merely "initially" save us, but ultimately saves us as well.

You wrote a lot in reply rather quickly. Is most of what you wrote pre-written responses saved on digital document?

Actually, I bookmark many of my posts that I previously have written in alphabetical order so that I can get new posts done much quicker. I'm not on here 24/7 like some people and I don't always have much time to post. There is nothing wrong with saving pre-written responses.

Granted, I have many of my own works written down on Google docs on many theological issues that I share here. I know your hope is to overwhelm me in the fact that I will not reply back, but that’s not going to happen.

LOL! That's exactly what you do but the master of overwhelming people with long winded posts in hopes that they will not reply back is LoveGodsWord from CF.

The false unbiblical doctrine that you are promoting must be opposed because it is not only unbiblical but it leads men to justify sin and to be lazy in their faith and to treat sin as no more dangerous as a fluffy kitten. So Lord willing, I will reply (with the Bible), but it will take time for me to do so. So please be patient.

Typical straw man argument from works-salvationists and eternal IN-securists. I have plenty of patience and there is nothing you could say that I have not heard before. I know how you think. Prior to my conversion, I was also very hung up on performance based works salvation.

Side Note:

Oh, by the way, while we are saved by believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, we also have to answer the call of the gospel, too. (*Important Note: This is the CALL of the gospel and NOT the actual gospel). This call of the gospel (2 Thessalonians 2:14) is found in 2 Thessalonians 2:13. This call of the gospel is defined as…. God has chosen you to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth. So it is a secondary aspect of salvation after you are saved by the gospel. You have to live holy as a part of the Sanctification of the Spirit for eternal life (Romans 8:13, Galatians 6:8-9) and it is intertwined or connected with believing other core foundational doctrines of the faith that are salvific like believing in the Godhead (Trinity), the bodily resurrection, etcetera. Granted, a person can be initially saved without believing the Trinity, but once that truth is revealed to them by Scripture, they cannot reject that truth (and be saved).

So just how holy must you live "in addition" to believing the gospel in order to be saved? You must have a lot of faith in your personal holiness. Enough so to trust in your personal holiness/self performance/works as a supplemental means to receiving salvation. Your posts reek of trusting in your own righteousness and looking down on others. So Jesus merely "initially" saved you then after that you did the rest? That certainly tickles the ears and feeds the pride of man. You continue to turn sanctification into "type 2 works salvation." The moment we are saved when we believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) we are justified and sanctified.

Acts 15:7 - And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

1 Corinthians 6:11 - And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Does God expect us to obey the hundreds of New Testament commands on day one of our service to be saved (after we are saved by God’s grace)?

The charge has been claimed by Belief Alone Salvationists that you must obey all of the New Testament commands (or that you must reach a state of Sinless Perfection whereby you can never sin again) in order for salvation by obedience to be valid after you are saved by God’s grace. This is why many believe that all you have to do is just believe in Jesus for salvation or the finished work of the cross and you are good to enter the Kingdom.

I believe the Bible teaches that Sanctification is a process of living holy by the Spirit. It’s why Romans 8:13 says but if you put to death the misdeeds of the body by the Spirit you will live (i.e. live eternally). 2 Corinthians 7:1 says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. These verses would not make any sense if we were automatically perfectly obeying all of the Lord’s commands in the New Testament on day one and we could never slip up on rare occasion and break God’s commands ever again. Granted, I am not against a new believer being able to do that. I would be for the brethren doing that since day one if we had strong Christian leaders training new converts to obey in all things right away. But that’s not always the reality for everyone. The thief on the cross was saved without works. But for those who live out their faith: I believe God gives us grace and time to learn His Word and to study it so as to know His will and to learn how to obey God.

Abraham did not even fulfill the command by God to take his son’s life. Abraham did not sacrifice Isaac and yet God was telling him to do that. God was testing Abraham’s loyalty. So it’s a willingness of our heart to obey God (even when things may not even be possible to obey Him in the moment). For example: We are told to make disciples and baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost teaching them all things that Christ commanded. Can you do that on day one after you are saved? What if you are in the mountains and there is nobody but you and the other person who led you to Jesus? Again, can you know of all of what Christ commands on day one? I imagine in some circumstances you could (if you had the right teachers). But is one not saved while they are still learning of those commands and they are not obeying them yet? This is why I believe there is grace. This grace is not a license for immorality of us thinking we can willfully sin. No, no. Most certainly not. We must seek to obey God in everything. Why? Because it is a part of our faith. It is our willingness to obey that I believe God is looking at before we can learn of that command and put into action. I say this because how many of you here are obeying the great commission in baptizing others in the name of Jesus (i.e. the name (singular) that represents the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit)? That’s a command by Jesus. Are you doing it? Are you not saved because you have not done so yet? I don’t believe so. I believe God gives us grace and time to do those things He desires of us. We should pray and ask God for help to obey Him in all things.

This also does not mean that we do not have to obey God as a part of God’s plan of salvation, either. 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 says God has chosen us to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth (Which is a call of the gospel). The gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. But the CALL of the gospel is our Sanctification (living holy by the Spirit and putting away sin and learning to know how to obey God), and continuing to believe the doctrines and or truths in the Bible.

Note: I believe that if a Christian sins (like say looking upon a woman in lust, or not forgiving someone), they must confess and forsake that sin. Believers need to strive to seek to obey all of God’s commands. This is a part of living by faith. If we are not seeking to obey God as a part of the Kingdom, we are simply seeking to be our own lords and masters. God calls us to obedience and to pick up our cross and to deny ourselves. We have to count the cost and we have to be willing to give up all for the Lord Jesus. Again, this takes time for many of us to learn. There are many tests of our faith along the way. Our faith is not always a walk in the park. Jesus said, strive to enter the straight gate (Luke 13:24). So yes. We should be striving to obey the commands that come from the Lord Jesus and His followers in the New Testament. But I believe God gives us grace to get there. For grace gives us the ability to do the work (1 Corinthians 15:10).

I agree that the scriptures don't tell us that we'll be able to obey God's commands perfectly in this wicked world we're living in. However we are to strive hard because of our love for God to be obedient to God's commands. A person is able to choose to not murder someone or steal, etc from someone that he/she say they love. The scriptures also tell us it will not be until the thousand year reign of Jesus Christ ends, that man, human beings, will be sinless without spot or blemish and be cababe to obey God's commands perfectly without sinning. YHWH God sent his only begotten Son to mankind in the likeness of the first human being, Adam. The first Adam when God first created him was created a perfect sinless human being that was without spot or blemish. The first human being Adam didn't maintain that state of being a perfect sinless human being without spot or blemish because, he chose to be disobedient. The True God YHWH sent his only begotten Son to mankind as a perfect sinless human being who was without spot or blemish and he maintained that state of being a sinless human being who was without spot or blemish right up to when he was sacrificed, unlike the first Adam. The last Adam Jesus Christ showed that the first Adam was capable of being obedient to the True God YHWH, that the True God YHWH wasn't asking the impossible from the first human Adam. The scriptures show that the Angel that became Satan the Devil has said, regarding any human being who worships or serves the True God YHWH, that he/she does so only because the True God YHWH will give them eternal life if they do. Satan is basically saying human beings serve or worship the True God YHWH only for what they will get from him. To be clear Satan is saying that human beings serve or worship the True God only to get things like, eternal life, no sickness, no death, no hunger, etc. Job 1:10-12; Job 2:4-6 However, Jesus, like Job, showed he served or worshiped the True God YHWH because of his love for him. Right from the start in the garden called Eden, God has always wanted his creation to serve or worship him because they loved him so much they would exercise faith that he who's name is YHWH is the creator and source of all life and he alone knows what's in the best interests(good) of what he created, and what wasn't in the best interests(evil, bad) of what he created. Servants of the True God serve or worship the true God simply and only because they love him so they recognize that only the True God YHWH knows what's in his/her best interests. So although now in this wicked world that we live in, we can't live by his word perfectly, we do strive very hard, we pummel our bodies as Paul says, to stay approved by God by being obedient to the scriptures. We do this only because of our love for the True God YHWH and because of that love we have for the True God YHWH we know that when it comes to human beings, a creation that the True God YHWH has created in his image he knows best how we are to behave or act when it comes to our love for him and our love for mankind, especially our spiritual brothers and sisters among mankind.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In regards to Romans 1:5 and Romans 16:26, although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God. Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR/UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR/UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced obedience afterwards. We have access by faith into grace.. Romans 5:2 not faith "and obedience/works." We are saved through faith in Christ first, then "unto" obedience/works.

Either…

(a) You do not understand my position again on the Bible, or
(b) You forgot what I believed, or
(c) You are just copying and pasting from a digital archive (without checking what you had written).

For you implied strongly these same kind of false claims before in that I believe we are not saved by God’s grace through faith (a belief), and then we later do the work of faith (Which is just one aspect of the Sanctification Process of living holy by the Spirit).

I am not like the Church of Christ or the Catholic Church who believes you need to do a “work of faith” FIRST in order to access grace in our Initial Salvation. I believe God’s grace is the entrance gate and it is foundational. For if a believer stumbles into sin on rare occasion, they do not do a good work to be forgiven of sin, but they go to God’s grace by confessing their sin. Many Christians today just believe you are forgiven of future sin when that runs contrary to 1 John 1:9.

I believe…

#1. Initial Salvation is by God’s grace through faith (a belief) in Jesus Christ as one’s Savior (John 1:12), and believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. It can include seeking forgiveness of one’s past life of sin with the Lord Jesus as well (Romans 10:9) (Romans 10:12-13).
(This is a process of salvation without works and it is the gift of God).

#2. Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth
(Which is a call of the gospel, NOT that it is the gospel) (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14) (Romans 8:13) (Galatians 6:8-9) (Hebrews 12:14-15).
This is a secondary aspect of salvation. If it wasn’t then you can ignore, or twist the Bible verses I provided in this point.​

This is then where you start to talk about your own invented term called, “Type 2 Works Salvation” as if it has any theological merit when it doesn’t.

To obey the Lord involves doing what He says, and He has commanded us to do many things (like works).
We are created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10).
You are saying that doing what God says (like works is not a salvation issue), but it runs contrary to many things God mentions in His Holy Word of which you deny.

#1. You must deny the Parable of the Talents (Matthew 25:14-30).
#2. You must deny John the Baptist’s point about being cut down like a tree if one does not bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (Matthew 3:10, Matthew 3:8),
#3. You must deny Jesus saying, “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life” in John 5:29,
#4. You must deny Paul saying we can be worse than infidel (unbeliever) and deny the faith if we provide not for our own (1 Timothy 5:8).​

And the list goes on and on.

James 2:24 says,“You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.”

This is talking about faith lived out.

You bring up Romans 1:16 as if that is an attempt to undo that we are not to obey the Lord as a part of our salvation.

Romans 1:16-17 says,
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”

The righteousness of God is revealed not only in the Lord accounting righteousness by our believing God (in our Initial Salvation - which is also foundational) (Romans 4:3) (Genesis 15:6), and which includes our believing the the gospel message (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), but the righteousness of God is ALSO revealed from the gospel in the fact that the gospel calls believers by stating… God has chosen you to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit (Which is a process to live a holy life by the Holy Spirit) (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). For God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

Anyways, bringing up my point before about how James 2:24 is about how our faith being lived out (of which you agree with), Romans 1:17 says that the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith.

The New Century Version (which aligns with other translations) says:

“that it begins and ends with faith.” (Romans 1:17).​

The just shall LIVE by faith (Romans 1:17) (Romans 1:17).
What does that living by faith look like?
By faith, Noah prepared an ark to the saving of his household.
You want me to believe it was just a belief alone that was saving him but if Noah did not build that ark, he would have perished. No faith alone would have saved him.

This is why we are justified by works and not by faith alone (i.e. faith LIVED out).
James 2:24 is not referring to our Initial Salvation through faith by a belief (As I am a sure you will agree). But the point here you are missing is that you say you are saved by faith alone, and yet if the word “justified” in James 2:24 is non-salvific, then you just contradict yourself because a faith alone (without eventual deeds or works) in James 2:24 will not save you. For faith without works is dead. No eventual works in your lived out faith, and your faith is dead and thus you are not saved. This is why you need works as a part of God’s plan of salvation. To say so otherwise means you believe no works is necessary to be saved. This is the true Faith Alone position. You need to run further down the road into deeper error of Hyper Grace and or Easy Believism if you truly want to be consistent in your false belief on Faith Alone here.

In Romans 1:5, it says, “By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:”

You and or most in your camp means you will just be living a transformed life to the point where God just force changes you to a point whereby you will be obedient to the faith. But when push comes to shove, you guys also defend the idea that you can sin and still be saved on some level, too. A perfect example of this is the Gotquestions article.

They say that a believer is characterized by living a life of holiness, but then they turn around and contradict themselves and say that if a believer is backslidden into a lifestyle of sin, they are still saved. This means that they are defending the idea that the prodigal son was still saved even while he was living it up with prostitutes.

Is a backsliding Christian still saved? | GotQuestions.org

John MacArthur who promotes Lordship salvation does not really believe in living holy because he also says you can commit suicide and be saved. He also says you can take the mark of the beast and be saved. He also says that the sin unto death in 1 John 5:16 is in reference to any sin that will simply take the life of the believer home early to be with God in heaven. So he is basically saying that if a believer is stuck in sin, they can potentially be rewarded with Heaven early. But God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). So many in the Perpetual Belief Alone camp who appear to be for holiness and being fruitful are not really for that position at all. It's a Trojan horse and or a deception. For if one believes they can sin and still be saved, good works really do not matter anymore. We see this in Matthew 7:22-23. Certain believers did good works, but Jesus basically told them to depart from Him because they worked iniquity, too. It's good works mingled with doing evil works. But a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, and neither can a bad tree bring forth good fruit.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Difference in style, but same in substance - "works based false gospel" - just as I pointed out in post #112.

I did not find 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 in that article yet the article claims:

The Gospel – All of It
Those who hang out in Protestant circles probably have a quick, easy description of the gospel: That Jesus died on the cross to save us from our sins. That is not untrue – but also not the whole story. Then comes the works.

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works (and so do you)

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works

First, you made a false accusation in that I believed the same gospel message that they do. I believe the gospel message that saves us is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. The Catholic Church does not believe that. They think the gospel has more to it. I believe there is a secondary aspect of salvation that is described as a CALL of the gospel which is…. God has chosen you to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth as mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14. This secondary aspect is NOT the gospel. Yet, I am sure the Catholic Church will see some aspect of living holy as the gospel when that is not the gospel as mentioned in the Bible. Yes, the gospel can help us to live holy, but the gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

Second, you claim that I teach salvation by works and so does the Catholic Church. But the Catholic Church believes in extra biblical sacraments and or man made traditions as a part of their salvation by works package. Catholics are not following the Bible alone as their authority when it comes to this topic or issue (Whereas I do). So you attempt to play guilt by association card when they don’t even believe the Bible alone like I do. Basically, if the Bible tells me something about how works save, I believe it, unlike you.

Works For Salvation Verses (After We are Saved By God’s Grace):

1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (James 2:24).
   
   
2. “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).
   
   
3. 10 “For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:10, and Titus 1:16).
   
   
4. “And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).
   
   
5. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).
   
   
6. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
   
   
7. “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee ? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee ? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:34-46).
   
   
8. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).
   
   
9. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).
   
   
10. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” (John 15:5-6).
    
    
11. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).
    
    
12. “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:” (Hebrews 12:14).
    
    
13. “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).
    
    
14. “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:4).
    
    
15. “If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,…” (1 Timothy 6:3-4).
    
    
16. “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” (1 Timothy 5:8).
    
    
17. ”Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.” (John 8:51).
    
    
18. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

Three, if you want to play the guilt by association game, your Protestant belief comes from Martin Luther who said,

“We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides... No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day" ['Let Your Sins Be Strong, from 'The Wittenberg Project;' 'The Wartburg Segment', translated by Erika Flores, from Dr. Martin Luther's Saemmtliche Schriften, Letter No. 99, 1 Aug. 1521. - Cf. Also Denifle’s Luther et Lutheranisme, Etude Faite d’apres les sources. Translation by J. Paquier (Paris, A. Picard, 1912-13), VOl. II, pg. 404].

Again, to "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL SUFFICIENT means of our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and not merely believe "mental assent" that His death, burial and resurrection "happened."

Here you go again with the false accusations of saying things I never believed or said. I never said that 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is just believing it as a set of facts that is non-salvific (a mental assent of facts that it happened without it saving us). I have always held to the view that believing the gospel message in that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen the the third day does relate to our salvation and is salvific. I just do not ignore the rest of Scripture on God’s plan of salvation like you do. Therein lies the difference between us.

 

[Taken]

Does God expect us to obey the hundreds of NT commands on day one of our service to be saved?
OP ^

Confusing Question.

An expectation of hundreds of NT commands TO BE SAVED? No.

An expectation of hundreds of NT commands AFTER BEING Saved? No.

* God requires ONE WORKS of a man......BELIEF in the Lord God.

* God requires ONE SERVICE of a man....HEARTFUL CONFESSION of the mans BELIEF in the Lord God.

It is the mans option to HEAR, READ, LEARN:
* WHAT Heartful Belief means.
* WHAT a Heartful Confession means.

Inanutshell....God GIVES, God OFFERS mankind to TAKE that which God has GIVEN. Any man WHO TAKES what God HAS GIVEN...should hear, read, learn......
WHAT exactly IS Gods TERMS, (the fine print),
BEFORE the man AGREES to TAKE Gods Offering.


1 Pet 1:
[10] Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

2 Pet 1:
[10] Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

A man WHO, has made HIS CALLING and ELECTION...thereafter HAS TWO COMMANDS...

Matt 22:
[37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[38] This is the first and great commandment.
[39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The MYSTERY...
* SHALT...love the Lord thy God
* SHALT...love mankind

SHALT, is NOT an OPTION.
SHALT, IS a FACT.

The MYSTERY uncovered...
* A man, “WHO HAS” TAKEN Gods Given, Gods Offered GIFT...
IS A MAN, WHO, has RECEIVED Gods POWER, with-IN that man.
* IT IS; (ie part of the fine print) THAT THAT man SHALT love the Lord God AND all of mankind....BY GODS POWER.

IOW....Those TWO COMMANDS ARE KEPT unto the man, BY Gods POWER “IN” a man.

^^ That man...having ACCOMPLISHED his ONE required Works, his ONE required Service...IS FOREVER WITH the Lord God Almighty. (OSAS)

* Thereafter.......ANY works a man DOES to Glorify God and His Great Name......shall be works, God rewards.
Any and All works that DO NOT glorify God, shall be burned.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Every time I hear someone say "full gospel" then here come the works! Believing the gospel is not a temporary belief that is in vain and believing the gospel does not merely "initially" save us, but ultimately saves us as well.

First, again, the gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. It's nothing more than that (Whereas before you implied I believed otherwise - which is a false accusation that you did not care to apologize about). The Sanctification of the Spirit includes works (Galatians 6:8-9), and is indeed a part of our salvation if you actually believe 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and Romans 8:13, etcetera.

Second, I am not saying that the gospel is believed once and we move on and forget about believing it again. You appeared to have missed my point. I believe we first receive the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 for salvation, and we continue to keep believing it as a part of God's plan of salvation package. We don't stop believing in the gospel for salvation anymore than we don't believe the Parable of the Sower, or 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and Romans 8:13. I am saying that when we first accept Jesus as our Savior in our Initial Salvation it will include our believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. This event of our first being saved (which includes our believing the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) exists as faith alone and not of works because we did not have to do a work to be initially saved. We were first saved by God's grace and mercy. I am making a point for the 1st aspect of salvation and I am not talking about the second aspect of salvation which includes: (a) Sanctification of the Spirit, and (b) a belief of the truth (which is continuing to believe the gospel message and believing other core important doctrines).

Actually, I bookmark many of my posts that I previously have written in alphabetical order so that I can get new posts done much quicker. I'm not on here 24/7 like some people and I don't always have much time to post. There is nothing wrong with saving pre-written responses.

The problem is that you misrepresent what I believe by your pre-written words.

LOL! That's exactly what you do but the master of overwhelming people with long winded posts in hopes that they will not reply back is LoveGodsWord from CF.

I do this in some cases as needed, but I do strive to re-read what I had written and cater it to the individual as needed. I don't just throw a bunch of stuff at a person always in attempt for them to not reply. I want others to engage me in what I say with God's Word. Many of my responses I provide are primarily lists of verses for a person to read and examine for themselves.

The false unbiblical doctrine that you are promoting must be opposed because it is not only unbiblical but it leads men to justify sin and to be lazy in their faith and to treat sin as no more dangerous as a fluffy kitten. So Lord willing, I will reply (with the Bible), but it will take time for me to do so. So please be patient.

Typical straw man argument from works-salvationists and eternal IN-securists. I have plenty of patience and there is nothing you could say that I have not heard before. I know how you think. Prior to my conversion, I was also very hung up on performance based works salvation.

But you were not following the Bible Alone as your final Word of authority before your conversion. Thus you ran from one wrong extreme end of the spectrum to the other. I know how you think on this particular topic, and it is illogical. To say that works do not save and yet you need works to show a saving faith is at the highest point of contradiction and self-deception. Again, if you are consistent with your belief that works do not save, then you need to be like the Hyper Grace crowd and claim that no works can ever be present in your life and yet you are still saved by a belief alone in Jesus. You cannot say that works do not save, and then turn around and double speak and say that a true saving faith will always be evidenced by works. You would be secretly promoting salvation by works if you did that. The only way for you to be true to your position that salvation is not by works is to truly embrace it by doing no works and believing you are saved by faith alone (i.e. a belief alone).

So just how holy must you live "in addition" to believing the gospel in order to be saved?

You probably do not want to admit this to yourself, but your issue is not with what I believe, but your issue is with God's Word says.

Hebrews 12:14 KJB says:
“Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:”

Hebrews 12:15 NIV says:
“See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.”

For grace gives us the ability to do the work (1 Corinthians 15:10).
God's grace teaches us to live holy (Titus 2:11-12).

In other words, if the Bible is true on these verses above, then the question is not about how holy we as believers need to be.
That's the wrong attitude to have. It sounds like an attitude of somebody who does not really want to dedicate their life to Jesus and make Him their Lord and master of their life completely. God calls us to be holy as He is (1 Peter 1:16).

Paul says:
“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” (Galatians 2:20).

You must have a lot of faith in your personal holiness. Enough so to trust in your personal holiness/self performance/works as a supplemental means to receiving salvation.

Actually, I believe that God is the One who does the good work through us (Philippians 2:13). Jesus said without Him, we can do nothing (John 15:5). So any or all good works done by a believer is the work of the Lord working through them. We merely have to cooperate with the Lord working in us. But all praise and glory goes to our Lord Jesus for any good done in our lives. Also, I am not the one who invented the idea of Sanctification to live a holy life as a part of salvation (after we are saved by God's grace). That would be: 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 8:13, Galatians 6:8-9 (of which you ignore or change).

Your posts reek of trusting in your own righteousness and looking down on others.

These are false accusations. I believe God saves both in His saving grace, and in the good work He wants to do through me (under my free will cooperation). But the Lord Jesus (God) gets all the glory.

I also strive to not make it about the individual but I seek to attack the false belief instead.
Granted, if a person is accusing me falsely, I have a right to defend myself. But if one keeps to just the Scriptures on that particular belief, then I seek to take down that false belief with Scripture and I don't try to make it personal in any way.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So Jesus merely "initially" saved you then after that you did the rest? That certainly tickles the ears and feeds the pride of man. You continue to turn sanctification into "type 2 works salvation." The moment we are saved when we believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) we are justified and sanctified.

So you believe you are forever saved by a belief alone... then if that is the case... then how you live does not matter. Good works do not matter. In fact, we know this kind of belief will just lead you to doing good works mingled with evil works because this kind of belief can make a person to easily think they can sin and still be saved. For the threat of a believer not seeing good works in their life should scare them that their saving faith was not genuine (even when they thought it was), and they will have to go back and repent again and or believe on Jesus again (as if they did not do it right or something). Imagine if you tell a child that works do not save, and then you never get to see them again, and they ended up being Hyper Grace based on your words. Their blood will be on your hands because your words will lead them to conclude the Hyper Grace position that works do not save. The errors of your belief here are numerous not to mention it seeks to attack the plain reading of Scripture.

Acts 15:7 - And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Of all the chapters you need to pay attention in... this is the big one that you miss.
If you read Acts 15:1, Acts 15:5, and Acts 15:24, you will realize that there a certain sect of Jews who thought they had to be circumcised to be initially saved and to keep the Law of Moses (i.e. the 613 Laws of Moses). If you were to keep this in the back of your mind as you read Paul, then a lot of what he says will begin to make more sense (Especially when Paul sprinkles in those mysterious phrases on circumcision). Galatians 5:2 says that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. So Paul was fighting against the heresy of those who thought they had to FIRST be circumcised in order to be initially saved. So when Paul condemns the law or works in a generic sense pay attention to which Law Paul is referring to in context. You will find that Paul condemns the OLD Law, and not the New Covenant laws of Jesus Christ. For if Paul condemned the laws of Christ, he would have been proud knowing nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Anyways, Acts 15:7 is merely contrasting the problem of circumcision for initial salvation vs. first being saved by God's grace through faith (Which is a process of salvation without works). It's not claiming that you have a blanket ban of forgiveness and so now you don't need to worry about doing anything for the Lord or not worry about living in some kind of sin. If you are forgiven of future sin, then how you live really does not matter. Talk of works being evidence of your faith would be pointless then and it would only seek to confuse the issue if one really and truly believes works do not save.

 

[dhh712]

Does God expect us to obey the hundreds of New Testament commands on day one of our service to be saved (after we are saved by God’s grace)?

The charge has been claimed by Belief Alone Salvationists that you must obey all of the New Testament commands (or that you must reach a state of Sinless Perfection whereby you can never sin again) in order for salvation by obedience to be valid after you are saved by God’s grace. This is why many believe that all you have to do is just believe in Jesus for salvation or the finished work of the cross and you are good to enter the Kingdom.

I believe the Bible teaches that Sanctification is a process of living holy by the Spirit. It’s why Romans 8:13 says but if you put to death the misdeeds of the body by the Spirit you will live (i.e. live eternally). 2 Corinthians 7:1 says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. These verses would not make any sense if we were automatically perfectly obeying all of the Lord’s commands in the New Testament on day one and we could never slip up on rare occasion and break God’s commands ever again. Granted, I am not against a new believer being able to do that. I would be for the brethren doing that since day one if we had strong Christian leaders training new converts to obey in all things right away. But that’s not always the reality for everyone. The thief on the cross was saved without works. But for those who live out their faith: I believe God gives us grace and time to learn His Word and to study it so as to know His will and to learn how to obey God.

Abraham did not even fulfill the command by God to take his son’s life. Abraham did not sacrifice Isaac and yet God was telling him to do that. God was testing Abraham’s loyalty. So it’s a willingness of our heart to obey God (even when things may not even be possible to obey Him in the moment). For example: We are told to make disciples and baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost teaching them all things that Christ commanded. Can you do that on day one after you are saved? What if you are in the mountains and there is nobody but you and the other person who led you to Jesus? Again, can you know of all of what Christ commands on day one? I imagine in some circumstances you could (if you had the right teachers). But is one not saved while they are still learning of those commands and they are not obeying them yet? This is why I believe there is grace. This grace is not a license for immorality of us thinking we can willfully sin. No, no. Most certainly not. We must seek to obey God in everything. Why? Because it is a part of our faith. It is our willingness to obey that I believe God is looking at before we can learn of that command and put into action. I say this because how many of you here are obeying the great commission in baptizing others in the name of Jesus (i.e. the name (singular) that represents the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit)? That’s a command by Jesus. Are you doing it? Are you not saved because you have not done so yet? I don’t believe so. I believe God gives us grace and time to do those things He desires of us. We should pray and ask God for help to obey Him in all things.

This also does not mean that we do not have to obey God as a part of God’s plan of salvation, either. 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 says God has chosen us to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth (Which is a call of the gospel). The gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. But the CALL of the gospel is our Sanctification (living holy by the Spirit and putting away sin and learning to know how to obey God), and continuing to believe the doctrines and or truths in the Bible.

Note: I believe that if a Christian sins (like say looking upon a woman in lust, or not forgiving someone), they must confess and forsake that sin. Believers need to strive to seek to obey all of God’s commands. This is a part of living by faith. If we are not seeking to obey God as a part of the Kingdom, we are simply seeking to be our own lords and masters. God calls us to obedience and to pick up our cross and to deny ourselves. We have to count the cost and we have to be willing to give up all for the Lord Jesus. Again, this takes time for many of us to learn. There are many tests of our faith along the way. Our faith is not always a walk in the park. Jesus said, strive to enter the straight gate (Luke 13:24). So yes. We should be striving to obey the commands that come from the Lord Jesus and His followers in the New Testament. But I believe God gives us grace to get there. For grace gives us the ability to do the work (1 Corinthians 15:10).

I couldn't have said it any better. Your words here reflect my idea of the life of a Christian I think exactly. There actually is a middle ground between the lawlessness which typically goes along with the idea of once saved always saved and the shallowness which holiness is regarded in the idea of sinless perfection. In the New Testament, the Christian life is described as a fight, a race. A believer who was actually a long way in their sanctification would never, never describe themselves as such because they realize it is not of their own doing, but as God has revealed (I believe it is in Philippians), it is Christ working in us (so, proof number one that the sanctification process is not as far as they see it in their own eyes: lack of knowledge of scripture).

Also, the believer whom God has conformed more closely to himself than others who are further back in this process, the remaining corruption within themselves (even if it is a very small amount) would be very great in his or her own eyes and God himself can abide no sin, none at all--all of it, even the smallest amount--is an abomination to him. The remaining imperfection would cause them to feel still very far from God (Paul described himself as "chief amongst sinners"; I believe we can all pretty much come to an agreement that the Lord had sanctified this servant of his to a really high degree in his life. I don't feel I am going way out on a limb to say that if any of us had the walk with the Lord which Paul had we would think to ourselves, "If I could live like that, I would feel that I'm like just about perfect". But Paul himself didn't feel that way or regard himself in that way).

Thank you for expressing in a Biblically accurate way the struggle against sin in the life of a Christian.

... Good works do not matter ...

That good works do not matter at all can not be a position held by any Bible-believing Christian (not that that is your position). God has prepared good works for us to act out here in this life. While we are still living here as believers, the Lord has a purpose here for us and that is to glorify him. If we are indeed believers that should entail serving the Lord by showing others his love for as Jesus said, "If you love me, obey my commandments". Such works, though they do nothing by the way of earning our salvation, are proof to ourselves and to others (in one of the epistles, the apostle says, "I will show you my faith by my works") that we are in fact children of God and not of the devil.

 

[mailmandan]

Either…

(a) You do not understand my position again on the Bible, or
(b) You forgot what I believed, or
(c) You are just copying and pasting from a digital archive (without checking what you had written).

For you implied strongly these same kind of false claims before in that I believe we are not saved by God’s grace through faith (a belief), and then we later do the work of faith (Which is just one aspect of the Sanctification Process of living holy by the Spirit).

It's not a false claim that you believe we are merely "initially" saved through faith then after that we are ultimately saved by personal holiness/self performance/works/type 2 works salvation.

I am not like the Church of Christ or the Catholic Church who believes you need to do a “work of faith” FIRST in order to access grace in our Initial Salvation. I believe God’s grace is the entrance gate and it is foundational. For if a believer stumbles into sin on rare occasion, they do not do a good work to be forgiven of sin, but they go to God’s grace by confessing their sin. Many Christians today just believe you are forgiven of future sin when that runs contrary to 1 John 1:9.

Your belief system is different in style from the Church of Christ and the Catholic Church but in the end it's still the same in substance - "works based" false gospel. While they are front and back door works salvation. You are back door only works salvation. Either way, Christ is not the ALL SUFFICIENT means of our salvation and is rendered an IN-sufficient Savior.

In regards to 1 John 1:9, notice that - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (vs. 9) is IN CONTRAST TO - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (vs. 8) and - If we say that we have not sinned, (past tense) we make him a liar, and his word is not in us (vs. 10).

Some people misunderstand verse 9 to mean that we "must confess each and every sin that we commit as we commit them" (keep a specific inventory) as an "additional requirement" to "remain cleansed" and "if we forget a sin we are toast!" Believers speak the same/acknowledge/agree with God's perspective about their sins and have a settled recognition and acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness.

I believe…

#1. Initial Salvation is by God’s grace through faith (a belief) in Jesus Christ as one’s Savior (John 1:12), and believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. It can include seeking forgiveness of one’s past life of sin with the Lord Jesus as well (Romans 10:9) (Romans 10:12-13).
(This is a process of salvation without works and it is the gift of God).

#2. Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth
(Which is a call of the gospel, NOT that it is the gospel) (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14) (Romans 8:13) (Galatians 6:8-9) (Hebrews 12:14-15).
This is a secondary aspect of salvation. If it wasn’t then you can ignore, or twist the Bible verses I provided in this point.​

This is then where you start to talk about your own invented term called, “Type 2 Works Salvation” as if it has any theological merit when it doesn’t.

Your belief system is flawed and it's you who has twisted these verses above to support "type 2 works salvation." In regards to 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, as I already explained before, those who receive salvation are justified and sanctified. (Acts 26:18; 1 Corinthians 6:11) Nothing there about "type 2 works salvation" as you teach.

In regards to Romans 8:13, how about some context: Romans 8:5 - For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. (CONTRAST BETWEEN BELIEVERS AND UNBELIEVERS)

In regards to Galatians 6:8-9, the one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sowing to his own corrupt, sinful nature which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life. In opposition to corruption, eternal life is produced by the Holy Spirit in those who put their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone (from beginning to end) for salvation.

In regards to Hebrews 12:14, the NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. (Hebrews 12:14). To be sanctified is to be "set apart/made holy." Without justification, there is no sanctification. So this verse is not teaching that if you are not "holy enough" (in of yourself) then you won't see the Lord as you so desperately and self righteously want to believe about yourself personally. In regards to Hebrews 12:15, the KJV reads - Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God.. After applying eisegesis to this verse, works-salvationists and eternal IN-securists would interpret it to mean such a person was saved by grace through faith, but then later failed and lost their salvation. Yet other translations bring out a clearer message. The NASB reads - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God.. The NIV reads - See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God.. The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God. Never saved.

CONTINUED..

 

[mailmandan]

To obey the Lord involves doing what He says, and He has commanded us to do many things (like works).
We are created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10).
You are saying that doing what God says (like works is not a salvation issue), but it runs contrary to many things God mentions in His Holy Word of which you deny.

We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

#1. You must deny the Parable of the Talents (Matthew 25:14-30).
#2. You must deny John the Baptist’s point about being cut down like a tree if one does not bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (Matthew 3:10, Matthew 3:8),
#3. You must deny Jesus saying, “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life” in John 5:29,
#4. You must deny Paul saying we can be worse than infidel (unbeliever) and deny the faith if we provide not for our own (1 Timothy 5:8).

I don't deny the proper interpretation of these verses above. I only deny your 'eisegesis.'

And the list goes on and on.

Yes, the list of your 'misinterpreted' verses does go on and on.

James 2:24 says,“You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.”

This is talking about faith lived out.

You see that a man is justified (shown to be righteous) by works, and not by (and empty profession of faith/dead) faith that remains alone (barren of works - James 2:14). You fail to understand that James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came through faith.

You bring up Romans 1:16 as if that is an attempt to undo that we are not to obey the Lord as a part of our salvation.

So how much obedience/works does it take? The act of obedience that saves is choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16) yet I see that you believe in your works (and not in Christ alone) for salvation, which is NOT a part of the gospel.

Romans 1:16-17 says,
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”

To live by faith has nothing to do with salvation by works.

The righteousness of God is revealed not only in the Lord accounting righteousness by our believing God (in our Initial Salvation - which is also foundational) (Romans 4:3) (Genesis 15:6), and which includes our believing the the gospel message (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), but the righteousness of God is ALSO revealed from the gospel in the fact that the gospel calls believers by stating… God has chosen you to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit (Which is a process to live a holy life by the Holy Spirit) (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).

Same old broken record of eisegesis that culminates in "type 2 works salvation." Sigh..

For God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

In Titus 2:11-12, the grace of God that brings salvation has "appeared to all men" (yet that does not mean that all men will accept God's gift of eternal life through faith). God's grace is unmerited and brings salvation through faith (Ephesians 2:8) and in Titus 2:11-12, the "grace of God" also teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously and godly in the present age. Nothing there about salvation by works.

This is why we are justified by works and not by faith alone (i.e. faith LIVED out).

We are justified (shown to be righteous) by works and not by (an empty profession of faith/dead) faith (that remains) alone (barren of works - James 2:14). Not to be confused with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Let that sink in.

James 2:24 is not referring to our Initial Salvation through faith by a belief (As I am a sure you will agree). But the point here you are missing is that you say you are saved by faith alone, and yet if the word “justified” in James 2:24 is non-salvific, then you just contradict yourself because a faith alone (without eventual deeds or works)

If justified by works were salvic and James is saying that we are justified (accounted as righteous) by works, then he contradicts Paul in Romans 4:2-3 who clearly stated that James was not justified by works and that Abraham believed God and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness. I do not contradict myself at all. You just don't understand the difference between and empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" (barren of works - James 2:14) and faith that trusts in Christ "alone" for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6) Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

in James 2:24 will not save you. For faith without works is dead. No eventual works in your lived out faith, and your faith is dead and thus you are not saved.

Works will not save you. All James is simply saying is that if someone merely says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) James is not saying that a dead faith produces works in order to become a living faith. That's like saying that a dead tree produces fruit in order to become a living tree. Something that is dead cannot produce anything. You put the cart before the horse.

This is why you need works as a part of God’s plan of salvation.

Works are the fruit of salvation and not the means of salvation.

To say so otherwise means you believe no works is necessary to be saved.

We are saved by faith apart from the merit of works, yet authentic faith does not remain apart from the presence of works.

This is the true Faith Alone position. You need to run further down the road into deeper error of Hyper Grace and or Easy Believism if you truly want to be consistent in your false belief on Faith Alone here.

You just don't get it because you obviously have not yet placed your faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Your hands are full of your works and you will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith. You are trapped on a hamster wheel of works salvation. Sigh..