Does God expect us to obey the hundreds of NT commands on day one of our service to be saved?

[Bible Highlighter]

Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20
If I committed adultery, stole, bore false witness, took the Lord's name in vain etc I would have heartfelt conviction of sin. I must assume you would not. Possibly that is why you keep stressing law, you have no heartfelt conviction of sin?
Its quite obvious a person wants to follow what is in their heart

I imagine you think many false things about many. Your position is to get me to think like you in that you can sin and still be saved on some level. Already, you are claiming that it is impossible to keep God's laws. Therefore, your default position is to either live like the devil, or live by having one foot in the Kingdom and one foot in the devil's kingdom. But Jesus says you cannot serve two masters. For you will hate the one and love the other. It sounds like you prefer sin over God and His good ways. For in my study of God's Word: I believe no true Christian would ever try and convince other believers to treat God's grace as a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). It's just wrong, and evil.

 

[Behold]

. Then.. only past sins are forgiven because if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins,

God has already forgiven our sins by the "one time (Jesus) Eternal Sacrifice of Jesus for SIN"....

This is why Romans 4:8 says that God does not charge the born again with their sin.

This is why 2 Corinthians 5:19, says that God was in Christ in the World not charging us with sin (Transgressions).
This is an OFFER, based on what Christ has accomplished by His Sacrifice on the Cross.
Once this offer is received by Faith, then Jesus becomes the sin of the FORGIVEN one, and this born again one becomes "the Righteousness of God in Christ'.
This is the Divine Exchange.
Sin, is in the past, as the old man of sin, that was this person before they became a "new Creation IN CRIST", is crucified with Christ.

Paul tells the born again to esteem what is dead to be dead and do not drag it back up.
People like you, BibleHighlighter, who are not affiliated with the understanding of Redemption, always keep bring up sin, bringing up sin, after you are told by PAUL to "reckon it dead".
You dont, because your faith is in your self effort, and your Legalistic theology cannot accept God's Grace as :"the finished work of Christ on the Cross".

Your theology is..>"Yes, Christ saves us, bu then.....NEXT.....here is YOUR PART you must DO or NOT DO, so that you can be on the Cross of your own self righteousness, trying to keep yourself saved".

 

[Bible Highlighter]

All sincere christians want to follow Christ, but you cannot be righteous by obeying laws unless you obey them

The thing is that if you sin, you believe you are still saved. That is the only option in your belief system. Obedience plays no part in your salvation and so then... obedience is optional and following Jesus is optional.

Just look at poster Behold pushing his nonsense above. He just proves my point that all you guys are believing in some form of turning God's grace into a license for immorality. Whether one is justifying lots of sin or even one sin. It does not matter. The Lord cannot agree with your sin.

 

[Daydreamer]

I imagine you think many false things about many. Your position is to get me to think like you in that you can sin and still be saved on some level. Already, you are claiming that it is impossible to keep God's laws. Therefore, your default position is to either live like the devil, or live by having one foot in the Kingdom and one foot in the devil's kingdom. But Jesus says you cannot serve two masters. For you will hate the one and love the other. It sounds like you prefer sin over God and His good ways. For in my study of God's Word: I believe no true Christian would ever try and convince other believers to treat God's grace as a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). It's just wrong, and evil.

What you say has no bearing on your life
Sin is the transgression of the law 1John3:4
No true christian is happy about sin, but they are not sinless, and neither are you. To perfectly obey the letter of God's laws is beyond man. He will always need a saviour from sin

 

[Daydreamer]

The thing is that if you sin, you believe you are still saved. .

Its past my bedtime so this is my last post to you. You are not sinless yet I am sure you believe you are still saved. Try writing posts that reflect your own life, not ones that do not

 

[Behold]

The thing is that if you sin, you believe you are still saved. .

There is no sin found "in Christ", as all the born again exist "in Christ".
There is no sin found in "the temple of the Holy Spirit", and all the born again are become the "temple of the Holy Spirit".
There is no sin found in Heaven...and all the born again exist as "seated in Heavenly Places IN CHRIST"..

Where is the sin of the born again found?

"God made Jesus to be sin for us"..

Its found on the Cross of Christ, where JESUS took it, died for it 2000 yrs ago, was Judged by God for it all, and rose again to prove it is true.

The born again meet God after they die as their FATHER, because Jesus has redeemed them from all their sin, and they have become "the righteousness of God, IN Christ".

 

[Behold]

Just look at poster Behold pushing his nonsense above. He just proves my point that all you guys are believing in some form of turning God's grace into a license for immorality.

Actually its Grace rejecting Cross insulting liars like you BibleHighlither, who hear "Behold" Give God and Jesus alone, all the Credit Due them for Salvation, over and over and over and over..... and you then twist that PRAISE GOD into..>"see there he is teaching License to sin".
But i would never do that, and you will never stop lying here on the forum, and not just you.
Its your ministry..... 1.) Deny the Cross....2.) Lie about Salvation and those who Teach it as God has provided it Through Christ's Blood Atonement., as ONLY THE Grace of God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What you say has no bearing on your life
Sin is the transgression of the law 1John3:4
No true christian is happy about sin, but they are not sinless, and neither are you. To perfectly obey the letter of God's laws is beyond man. He will always need a saviour from sin

Then you have not read and or believed 1 Peter 4:1-2, and Galatians 5:24.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Its past my bedtime so this is my last post to you. You are not sinless yet I am sure you believe you are still saved. Try writing posts that reflect your own life, not ones that do not

You are looking at sin from the wrong perspective. Sin does not exist in the future. Sin only exists right now in the present (if a person chooses to sin), or sin can be forgiven by Jesus and put away. The sin would have existed physically in the past but the fact that it was forgiven means that the Lord will not remember that sin no more because of the atonement.

 

[atpollard]

Romans 9 is not isolated from the rest of the book of Romans.

The whole point of Romans 9 was written with the Jew in mind in how they were trying to earn salvation by “Works Alone Salvationism” (without God's grace through Jesus Christ), and how they found favor with God based on their nationality (in that they were God's people, Israel).

Romans 9:6-8 is a refutation of the Israelites false belief of salvific nationalism.

Romans 9:9-16 is a refutation of the Israelites false belief of “Works Alone Salvationism” (without Jesus and His grace) but salvation is by him who calls upon the name of the Lord Jesus (Compare Romans 9:11 with Romans 10:13).

Romans 9:17-18 sets up the dilemma for the Israelite in being saved by God's grace and mercy on His terms. Pharaoh was hardened on God's terms in that we know that a person's heart is hardened by their own sin. For a believer who sins and hardens their heart, they can then fall into unbelief and depart from the living God (See: Hebrews 3:12-15). Sin is the breaking of the Law or commandment (1 John 3:4). The Israelite was hardening their heart against God on account of their sin or disobedience to the command to believe in Jesus (1 John 3:23).

Romans 9:19 is the Israelite complaining about how can God find fault because they believe they are doing God's will as an Israelite.

Romans 9:20 A voice answers the Israelite and criticizes the Israelite. The voice asks a question from the Israelites perspective, “Why have you made me this way [i.e. as an Israelite, a keeper of the Law]?”

When reading Romans 9:21-23, we have to keep in mind that God elects based on His foreknowledge (His future foreknowledge of what they are going to do) (1 Peter 1:1-2). The language present in this passage is reminiscent of Jeremiah 18 about how God will form the clay based upon how a nation does not hear his voice, He will turn back on the good He would do unto them. God warns Jerusalem and Judah that He frames evil against them unless they repent. Meaning, based on what we do, a person will fall into one of two categories. The resurrection of life, and the resurrection of the damned (i.e. the vessels of wrath and mercy). God will render to every man according to his deeds (See: Romans 2:6).

Romans 9:30-32 clarifies (recaps) what was being said:

“What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;” (Romans 9:30-32).

“...rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.” (Romans 11:11).

So Romans 9 is really not talking about Calvinistic Unconditional Election.

Even the word “call” used in Romans 9 in reference to God calling does not prove that God is forcing anything upon a person. For many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 22:14).


Article source (Inspiration):
https://mountcarmelapologetics.com/2019/07/08/a-non-calvinist-interpretation-of-romans-9/

I called that one … rewritten to “the Potter OWES the evil clay salvation.”

 

[mailmandan]

Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:24, Romans 4:5-6 are all dealing with our Initial Salvation by God's grace. Being Initially Saved by God's grace is a process of salvation without works.

From beginning "have been" (past tense, with ongoing present results) saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works. Period. Justification is not a process. Romans 5:1 - Therefore, "having been" justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

It's received like a gift (Ephesians 2:8). Gifts are received one time. This would be in our Initial Salvation.

Salvation is a gift that is received through faith. We don't work for the gift. We freely receive it. Ephesians 2:8 - For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God. (AMPC)

One is quickened and or made alive in their Initial Salvation (Ephesians 2:1). Galatians 1:6-9 is in reference to believing the gospel message we receive in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

Galatians 1:6-9 is in reference to a "different" gospel, a perverted gospel.

Yes, we continue to believe this gospel message and it is a foundational doctrine we must believe our whole lives so as to stand (relating to our salvation).

Saving faith continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. Unfortunately, there are those who may fail to hold fast to the word which Paul preached to them and end up believing in vain. (1 Corinthians 15:1-2) To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose.

But faith also includes more than just believing in Jesus as our Savior, and believing the gospel message that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and risen the third day.

Now you sound like a Roman Catholic and sure enough (here comes the works!) Compare your bolded, underlined statement above with what a Roman Catholic said to me during a similar discussion: We are saved by faith as long as you properly define "faith." Faith is not simply "believing". Faith includes: (here comes the works!) Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc.. Just like Roman Catholics, you try to "shoe horn" works "into" faith and simply call it "faith," even though it's faith "and" works.

James 2:21 says, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?” I know you said before that the word “justified” in this verse is non-salvific and that you would point to some verse like Luke 7:29 in saying that this verse is not in reference to the word “justified” being salvific. While it is true that the people justified God is not in relation to salvation, this is not the case with James 2:21. How can I prove it? Simple.

What you fail to understand (and this remains your achilles heel) is that James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Simple.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Hebrews 11:17 says, “By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,” So we see the same event here being described of Abraham offering Isaac. James 2:21 says this is being justified by works, and yet Hebrews 11:17 says that Abraham offered Isaac by FAITH. By FAITH Abraham did this. This is not the evidence of faith... but it is BY FAITH... Abraham offered up Isaac.

It was "by" or "out of" faith that Abraham offered up Isaac and this certainly was the evidence of Abraham's faith and not the origin of it. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

Romans 5:1 says that, “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God...” (Romans 5:1). Romans 5:2 says, “By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand,” (Romans 5:2). Faith is how we access God's grace. God's grace saves us (Ephesians 2:8).

Yes, Romans 5:1 says that we are justified by faith and this faith is in Christ. There is a difference between being justified "by" or "through" faith in Christ then AFTERWARDS, performing a good work "by" or "out of" faith. We have access by faith into this grace and not by faith "and works." Your stumbling block of confusion that culminates in salvation by faith "and works" is the same stumbling block of confusion that I experienced prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I called that one … rewritten to “the Potter OWES the evil clay salvation.”

Read the end of the chapter. Read the proceeding chapters and the chapters after it, too. It’s not talking about Calvinism. That was not the whole point. But of course you see Calvinism in it because that is what you want to believe (even if it is not defensible by the context).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

From beginning "have been" (past tense, with ongoing present results) saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works. Period. Justification is not a process. Romans 5:1 - Therefore, "having been" justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Salvation is a gift that is received through faith. We don't work for the gift. We freely receive it. Ephesians 2:8 - For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God. (AMPC)

Galatians 1:6-9 is in reference to a "different" gospel, a perverted gospel.

Saving faith continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. Unfortunately, there are those who may fail to hold fast to the word which Paul preached to them and end up believing in vain. (1 Corinthians 15:1-2) To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose.

Now you sound like a Roman Catholic and sure enough (here comes the works!) Compare your bolded, underlined statement above with what a Roman Catholic said to me during a similar discussion: We are saved by faith as long as you properly define "faith." Faith is not simply "believing". Faith includes: (here comes the works!) Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc.. Just like Roman Catholics, you try to "shoe horn" works "into" faith and simply call it "faith," even though it's faith "and" works.

What you fail to understand (and this remains your achilles heel) is that James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Simple.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

It was "by" or "out of" faith that Abraham offered up Isaac and this certainly was the evidence of Abraham's faith and not the origin of it. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

Yes, Romans 5:1 says that we are justified by faith and this faith is in Christ. There is a difference between being justified "by" or "through" faith in Christ then AFTERWARDS, performing a good work "by" or "out of" faith. We have access by faith into this grace and not by faith "and works." Your stumbling block of confusion that culminates in salvation by faith "and works" is the same stumbling block of confusion that I experienced prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church.

First, you love to throw down the Catholic card all the time on this issue as if it has any merit. It doesn’t. The Catholics believe in the Trinity that does not mean the Trinity is false just because they believe in it. Even a blind squirrel can find a nut.

Second, what you done was simply cheating. You just changed the text because you don’t like what it says. At BibleGateWay, none of the many translations there say “Out of faith.” (In Hebrews 11:17).

Hebrews 11:17 - Bible Gateway

The majority of them say, “By faith…” means exactly what it means. By faith,

The English word “By” at KingJamesBibleDictionary.com does not define this word as “out of” either. They list the Easton’s Bible Dictionary and the Websters Dictionary.

King James Bible Dictionary - Reference List - by

Abraham offered Isaac. It was not by works (apart from faith).
Paul says there is the work of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3) (2 Thessalonians 1:11).
I imagine if I asked your average Christian if “the work of God” was separate from “God” they would say… “No.”
Oh, but when it comes to works, they are separate from faith. Yet, you contradict yourself and say that works come out of faith and yet the works don’t save and yet the faith does. As I pointed out to you before (of which you are unable to see), if a believer does not have works it is dead (James 2:17). This means no works and you are not saved. Therefore, works are needed as a part of the salvation equation. Even if the works were not salvific in and of themselves. It does not matter. If works are needed to show a true faith, then works are salvific too (So as to show a true faith that saves). That is why you are believing in contradiction and you don’t even know it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

From beginning "have been" (past tense, with ongoing present results) saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works. Period. Justification is not a process. Romans 5:1 - Therefore, "having been" justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Salvation is a gift that is received through faith. We don't work for the gift. We freely receive it. Ephesians 2:8 - For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God. (AMPC)

Galatians 1:6-9 is in reference to a "different" gospel, a perverted gospel.

Saving faith continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. Unfortunately, there are those who may fail to hold fast to the word which Paul preached to them and end up believing in vain. (1 Corinthians 15:1-2) To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose.

Now you sound like a Roman Catholic and sure enough (here comes the works!) Compare your bolded, underlined statement above with what a Roman Catholic said to me during a similar discussion: We are saved by faith as long as you properly define "faith." Faith is not simply "believing". Faith includes: (here comes the works!) Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc.. Just like Roman Catholics, you try to "shoe horn" works "into" faith and simply call it "faith," even though it's faith "and" works.

What you fail to understand (and this remains your achilles heel) is that James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Simple.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

It was "by" or "out of" faith that Abraham offered up Isaac and this certainly was the evidence of Abraham's faith and not the origin of it. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

Yes, Romans 5:1 says that we are justified by faith and this faith is in Christ. There is a difference between being justified "by" or "through" faith in Christ then AFTERWARDS, performing a good work "by" or "out of" faith. We have access by faith into this grace and not by faith "and works." Your stumbling block of confusion that culminates in salvation by faith "and works" is the same stumbling block of confusion that I experienced prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church.

Paul also mentions that there is an “obedience to the faith" (or obedience of faith) at the beginning and end of the book of Romans (See: Romans 1:5, Romans 16:26). Romans 6 says, “Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?” (Romans 6:16). So we have to have obedience unto righteousness. For Romans 6 also says, “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22). So our obedience unto righteousness is being servants of God and having fruit unto holiness with having the end of everlasting life. This is all a part of the obedience to the faith. There is no such thing as the disobedience of the faith. For Ephesians 5 says, “But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.” (Ephesians 5:3-6).

John 3:36 (The Greek word “apeitheō” used in John 3:36 for “believeth not” (KJB) is translated as “obey not” or “disobedient” in other English bible verses. For example: 1 Peter 3:1, and 1 Peter 3:20 translates apeitheō as “obey not” or “disobedient” and it is used context to being disobedient in regards to one’s righteous conduct (Whereas John 3:36 is translated as believeth not” in the King James Bible). Some translations render the KJB’s John 3:36 “believeth not" as “obey not” in other Translations (NLT, ESV, BLB, NASB, ASV, EXB, GNT). In other words, “believeth not” is synonymous with “obey not.” In fact, you can check this Greek word for yourself and it's usage here at BlueLetterBible.

G544 - apeitheō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Galatians 1:6-9 is in reference to a "different" gospel, a perverted gospel.

Yes, I should have clarified that better. You are correct. I should have explained more clearly what this passage was about. I did not go into the depth on this passage. But it does reference the real with the fake. Paul compares this false other gospel to the real thing to begin with. It says it is not another gospel at all. It is a non-existence other gospel. But yes, this passage does reference another false gospel. We both believe the gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (in that we must believe that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and risen the third day). This gospel does save us and it continues to save us by our continuance in believing in it. Where we disagree is on 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 8:13, 2 Corinthians 7:1.

Saving faith continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. Unfortunately, there are those who may fail to hold fast to the word which Paul preached to them and end up believing in vain. (1 Corinthians 15:1-2) To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose.

If my memory serves me correctly, I think you believe that the Parable of the Sower in Luke 8:13 is in reference to fake nominal believers and not true believers. But again, those who fall away because they have no root and they believe for a while shows that they did not have root in God’s Word and therefore, they only believed genuinely for a while. They fell away from the faith. In fact, the parable says that in time of temptation they fell away. If they never were saved to begin with then they could not fall away from anything. They were growing plants and one of the plants (front he seed planted) was choked by thorns (i.e. the riches and cares of this life). You cannot choke a dead plant that has no life. The plant had life showing it was saved and had eternal life at one time.

1 Timothy 6:10 says,
“For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.”

We see that we can err from the faith by coveting after riches (for the love of money is the root of all evil).

Now you sound like a Roman Catholic and sure enough (here comes the works!) Compare your bolded, underlined statement above with what a Roman Catholic said to me during a similar discussion: We are saved by faith as long as you properly define "faith." Faith is not simply "believing". Faith includes: (here comes the works!) Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc.. Just like Roman Catholics, you try to "shoe horn" works "into" faith and simply call it "faith," even though it's faith "and" works.

I am not Catholic. What they believe repulses me because they partake of extra biblical sacraments. My belief is derived purely from the Bible itself. Take for example Romans 10:17. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. The whole of your New Testament is a part of the faith. You cannot cut out certain parts of the New Testament and say they are not a part of the faith. You have to believe ALL of it by faith. The whole Bible is to be believed by faith. If not you are being an unbeliever in the Bible. Some people reject certain books of the Bible. This would be unbelief because they are not believing those words are from God. You want to dissect out parts of the Bible like works and say that it is not a part of the faith when the whole of the New Testament is a part of the faith for us to believe in. That’s what is silly about your belief here.

What you fail to understand (and this remains your achilles heel) is that James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Simple.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

James 2:23-24 says,
“Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”

Abraham was justified by works by offering up Isaac (James 2:21). By faith Abraham offered up Isaac (Hebrews 11:17). Abraham believed God and it was imputed to him for righteousness (James 2:23). This was in regards to Abraham test of faith in offering up Isaac. Abraham believed God by offering Isaac upon the altar and it was imputed to him for righteousness. Then in verse 24, James says you see then how works is a man justified and not by faith (belief) only (or by faith alone).

In fact, the only place in the Bible that talks about faith alone is a point about how you are not supposed to have faith alone (When it comes to living out your faith).

 

[farouk]

A good verse to remember: "His commandments are not grievous" (1 John 5.3). In any case, the believer's obedience is not meritorious; it is rather 'the obedience of faith' and 'obedience to the faith': phrases of Paul found at the beginning and the end of Romans, the great treatise on justification by faith.

 

[Daydreamer]

Then you have not read and or believed 1 Peter 4:1-2, and Galatians 5:24.

I wrote:
''''What you say has no bearing on your life
Sin is the transgression of the law 1John3:4
No true christian is happy about sin, but they are not sinless, and neither are you. To perfectly obey the letter of God's laws is beyond man. He will always need a saviour from sin''''

You replied:
'''Then you have not read and or believed 1 Peter 4:1-2, and Galatians 5:24'''

Have a read of Christ's commands in the gospels, you believe that is applicable law don't you? Then come back and tell me you fully obey the letter of those commands. And tell me you fully obey the letter of the law regarding the inner man, the law only you and God need know you break. You need to stop making rhetorical statements based on the random literal letter that have no bearing on yours or anyone elses christianity. Learn to understand sin is spoken of in two different ways in the bible. It is not enough simply to quote the letter randomly, you have to understand the message contained in it as one cohesive whole. The letter kills because no one will ever perfectly obey that letter, and if you think that only applies to OT law that is no longer applicable under the new covenant you are wrong, for the letter of that law did not kill, it could be fully obeyed. It is the letter of the moral law you will not perfectly obey, as should be obvious where your own imperfections are concerned

 

[Daydreamer]

You are looking at sin from the wrong perspective. Sin does not exist in the future. Sin only exists right now in the present (if a person chooses to sin), or sin can be forgiven by Jesus and put away. The sin would have existed physically in the past but the fact that it was forgiven means that the Lord will not remember that sin no more because of the atonement.

Until you understand sin is spoken of in two different ways in the bible, I think it is you who has sin in the wrong perspective

 

[mailmandan]

First, you love to throw down the Catholic card all the time on this issue as if it has any merit. It doesn’t. The Catholics believe in the Trinity that does not mean the Trinity is false just because they believe in it. Even a blind squirrel can find a nut.

The Catholic card here has absolute merit in regards to "adding" works "into" faith. Regardless of what else Catholics got right, both you and Catholics have the gospel wrong.

Second, what you done was simply cheating. You just changed the text because you don’t like what it says. At BibleGateWay, none of the many translations there say “Out of faith.” (In Hebrews 11:17).

I did not change anything. To accomplish a good work "by" faith is to accomplish a good work "out of" faith. That's exactly what it means. It doesn't mean that faith "is" in essence the good work accomplished.

Hebrews 11:17 - Bible Gateway

The majority of them say, “By faith…” means exactly what it means. By faith,

The English word “By” at KingJamesBibleDictionary.com does not define this word as “out of” either. They list the Easton’s Bible Dictionary and the Websters Dictionary.

Again, to accomplish something "by" faith is to accomplish something "out of" faith. In Hebrews 11:7, we read - "By faith" (out of faith) Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Now Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith, not the origin of it. So building the ark demonstrated his faith and saved him and his family (physically) from drowning. (Hebrews 11:17) You want to change something accomplished "by" or "out of" faith into the something accomplished "is" in essence faith itself so you can justify teaching salvation by faith AND WORKS, just like Roman Catholics and Mormons and other works-salvationists.

King James Bible Dictionary - Reference List - by

Abraham offered Isaac. It was not by works (apart from faith).
Paul says there is the work of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3) (2 Thessalonians 1:11).
I imagine if I asked your average Christian if “the work of God” was separate from “God” they would say… “No.”
Oh, but when it comes to works, they are separate from faith. Yet, you contradict yourself and say that works come out of faith and yet the works don’t save and yet the faith does. As I pointed out to you before (of which you are unable to see), if a believer does not have works it is dead (James 2:17). This means no works and you are not saved. Therefore, works are needed as a part of the salvation equation. Even if the works were not salvific in and of themselves. It does not matter. If works are needed to show a true faith, then works are salvific too (So as to show a true faith that saves). That is why you are believing in contradiction and you don’t even know it.

Again, the accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In regards to 1 Thessalonians 1:3, notice the words "work of" faith, "labor of" love and "patience of" hope. These are the practical outworking of the Thessalonians' conversion. The "work" the Thessalonians do is a result or consequence of their faith. So too their "labor" flows from love and their "endurance" comes from hope. Work "of" faith does not mean that faith in essence is the work accomplished or that we are saved by works that are produced "out of" faith. Their work is a result or consequence "of" their faith. The work done is "of" faith or done "out of" faith. Faith was already established at conversion and then the work "followed" as a result or consequence "of" faith. I've heard works-salvationists try to turn work "of" faith into this work "is" faith and end up making no distinction between faith and works that follow as a result of faith. The end result of course is salvation by faith AND WORKS which is your desired goal.

In 2 Thessalonians 1:11, you also try to turn work "of" faith into this work "is" faith which results in works righteousness. Other translations says: your work produced by faith (CSB) every action stemming from your trust (CJB) help you do everything your faith produces (GW) works done by faith (MEV) everything your faith produces (NOG) perform the works that come from your faith (NCV) every desire for goodness and your every deed prompted by faith (NIV) accomplish all the good things your faith prompts you to do (NLT) The work of God is not God Himself.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works as you teach. You said yourself that works are salvic, but that is not what the Bible teaches. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). Now James' concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In regards to James 2:17, faith by itself that is not accompanied by works demonstrates that it's not authentic faith. So "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That's like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) The equation is not salvation by faith and works. The equation is man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet authentic faith is substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24) Plain and simple. So works are not salvic too. When are you finally going to realize that? It's absolutely critical that you do realize it! Your salvation depends on it.

 

[mailmandan]

Paul also mentions that there is an “obedience to the faith" (or obedience of faith) at the beginning and end of the book of Romans (See: Romans 1:5, Romans 16:26).

In regards to Romans 1:5 and Romans 16:26, although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God. Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR/UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR/UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced obedience afterwards. We have access by faith into grace.. Romans 5:2 not faith "and obedience/works." We are saved through faith in Christ first, then "unto" obedience/works.

Romans 6 says, “Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?” (Romans 6:16). So we have to have obedience unto righteousness. For Romans 6 also says, “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

Works-salvationists typically ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" (Romans 6:16) and simply stress "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience which "follow" faith are unto righteousness, as if we are saved by works. Unbelievers are not slaves of obedience unto righteousness no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works.

There is a contrast here between servants/slaves. There are only two kinds of servants/slaves in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants/slaves of sin unto death, or servants/slaves of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."

Before they obeyed that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16), they had been slaves to sin. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by FAITH." "Obeying the gospel" and "obeying that form of doctrine" in these passages is really a synonym for BELIEVING the gospel. Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

*Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

*Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.

So our obedience unto righteousness is being servants of God and having fruit unto holiness with having the end of everlasting life. This is all a part of the obedience to the faith.

That is eisegesis on your part that culminates in salvation by works.

There is no such thing as the disobedience of the faith. For Ephesians 5 says, “But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.” (Ephesians 5:3-6).

Children of God are not the children of disobedience. (Ephesians 2:1-5) You seem to have more faith in your performance/obedience/works to save you than you do in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ to save you. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) This is really all about YOU. You are a SELF PROMOTER.

John 3:36 (The Greek word “apeitheō” used in John 3:36 for “believeth not” (KJB) is translated as “obey not” or “disobedient” in other English bible verses. For example: 1 Peter 3:1, and 1 Peter 3:20 translates apeitheō as “obey not” or “disobedient” and it is used context to being disobedient in regards to one’s righteous conduct (Whereas John 3:36 is translated as believeth not” in the King James Bible). Some translations render the KJB’s John 3:36 “believeth not" as “obey not” in other Translations (NLT, ESV, BLB, NASB, ASV, EXB, GNT). In other words, “believeth not” is synonymous with “obey not.” In fact, you can check this Greek word for yourself and it's usage here at BlueLetterBible.

G544 - apeitheō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

I often hear works-salvationists quote John 3:36 in the NASB and "stress" the word "obey" to imply that we are saved by obedience/works. In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which follows believing in the Son, but obey by choosing to believe in the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the CSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.