Does God expect us to obey the hundreds of NT commands on day one of our service to be saved?

[Daydreamer]

Absolutely:
The following isnt believed by people that say they are bible believing christians. It is turned around to mean all of the old covenant law, which is ridiculous for two reasons:
1) It specifically refers to the law engraved in stone, which was only the ten commandments
2) The law that is no longer applicable could not be the letter that kills for it could perfectly be obeyed

The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.


7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Many do not know how to rightly divide.
There is a difference between the 613 Laws of Moses and the Laws of Christ in the New Testament.

Christians are not under the 613 Laws of Moses or the works of the Old Law that was given to Israel and not the church.
Christians today are ignorant about how Gentile Christians were told that they do not have to keep the Law of Moses and to be circumcised to be saved (Whereby this was the heresy that Paul was fighting against when he spoke things like Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, etcetera).

Believers are initially saved by God’s grace without works.
Believers are not FIRST saved by circumcision which was a heresy that was addressed at the Jerusalem council in Acts 15 (See verse 1, verse 5, verse 24). Paul himself said if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2). Then in verse 4, Paul says if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This would be the Old Law and not the Law of Christ (Which would be a part of our faith in Jesus Christ). Romans 3:27 says boasting is excluded when it comes to the law of faith. So those who boast in Ephesians 2:9 involving works in their Initial Salvation are doing a work outside of the faith. At that time, this was the heresy of Circumcision Salvationism that said you had to be first circumcised in order to be initially saved.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Acts 13:39 says you cannot be justified by the Law of Moses.
This is the 613 Laws as a whole or package deal.
This is why Paul says we are not under the Law (i.e. the Old Law) in Romans 6:14.
However, Paul says he is not without law seeing he is under the Law of Christ (See: 1 Corinthians 9:21).
Paul is not against the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness. If he was, he would be condemning himself in being proud knowing nothing (See: 1 Timothy 6:3-4).

 

[Daydreamer]

Many do not know how to rightly divide.
There is a difference between the 613 Laws of Moses and the Laws of Christ in the New Testament.

Christians are not under the 613 Laws of Moses or the works of the Old Law that was given to Israel and not the church.
Christians today are ignorant about how Gentile Christians were told that they do not have to keep the Law of Moses and to be circumcised to be saved (Whereby this was the heresy that Paul was fighting against when he spoke things like Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, etcetera).

Believers are initially saved by God’s grace without works.
Believers are not FIRST saved by circumcision which was a heresy that was addressed at the Jerusalem council in Acts 15 (See verse 1, verse 5, verse 24). Paul himself said if you seek to be circumcise, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2). Then in verse 4, Paul says if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This would be the Old Law and not the Law of Christ (Which would be a part of our faith in Jesus Christ). Romans 3:27 says boasting is excluded when it comes to the law of faith. So those who boast in Ephesians 2:9 involving works in their Initial Salvation are doing a work outside of the faith. At that time, this was the heresy of Circumcision Salvationism that said you had to be first circumcised in order to be initially saved.

Don't you understand anything about the law. The law of sin and death was the ten commandments. According you, you must obey nine of them to remain justified before God. So it is still the law of sin cand death for you, you just cant see it

 

[Daydreamer]

Now the bible is getting twisted. paul does not say you are not under the old law, he states you are not under law. And he gives an example from one of the ten commandents as to why he had to die to the law. So as far as Paul was concerned, he was not under the law of the ten commandments. Bible highlighter believes christians are under that law(nine of them anyway), for it is part of applicable law that must be obeyed to be or remain justified before God. If only the blind could see

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Protestant Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationists have tried to say that the word “justified” in James 2:24 is non-salvific.
But the same word “justified” is used for both faith and works in the same verse.

James is saying that a faith lived out that has no works is like a dead faith (James 2:17).
A dead faith cannot save you. This is the same thing being said here in James 2:24.

If one proposes that the word “justified” in this verse is non-salvific, then they would be proposing that there is a kind of faith involving justification that is non-salvific (Which does not make any sense).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Paul never says that you are not under the laws like do not murder, to do not steal, etcetera. One is completely ignorant of the Scriptures if one believes that. Paul warns in several places that those who murder, covet, steal will not inherit the Kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21) (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

 

[Daydreamer]

You really would hope there would be at least a little understanding of what is written:
So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law/being under thew law/righteousness of obeying the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Rom7:4-6
What law is Paul talking about here?
In the next five verses he gives a personal example as to why he had to die to the law/written code/righteousness of obeying the law. He had 613 laws to choose from, this is what he wrote:
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence(confirmation of verse5). For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.(one of the ten commandments)

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Of course, if people want to twist the verses to mean something other than they plainly state, undoubtedly they will

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Paul was speaking as a Pharisee in that he was under the WHOLE of the 613 Laws of Moses in Romans 7:14-24. He wanted to keep the righteous aspect of the Old Law (i.e. the moral law like do not murder, to do not steal, etc.) but he couldn’t because he was under the Old law as a WHOLE (that did not apply anymore). Romans 7 says we are to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. The oldness of the letter is the Torah or the Laws of Moses. Again, read Galatians 5:19-21, and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. Paul is saying that if one breaks the Moral Law (under the New Covenant), they will not inherit the Kingdom of God. This is in relation to a loss of salvation because in Matthew 25:34, we learn that the phrase “inherit the kingdom” is in context to salvation in the fact that they would enter God’s Kingdom by helping to poor in this life vs. those who did not do so (By which they were told to go away into everlasting punishment - Matthew 25:46).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

James 2:21 says that Abraham was justified by works by offering up Isaac.
Hebrews 11:17 says… BY FAITH… Abraham offered up Isaac.
So it’s saying the same thing. Abraham’s works were a part of his faith.
It’s how one LIVES out their faith. From faith to faith… the just will LIVE by faith.

 

[Daydreamer]

Paul was speaking as a Pharisee in that he was under the WHOLE of the 613 Laws of Moses in Romans 7:14-24. He wanted to keep the righteous aspect of the Old Law (i.e. the moral law like do not murder, to do not steal, etc.) but he couldn’t because he was under the Old law as a WHOLE (that did not apply anymore). Romans 7 says we are to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. The oldness of the letter is the Torah or the Laws of Moses. Again, read Galatians 5:19-21, and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. Paul is saying that if one breaks the Moral Law (under the New Covenant), they will not inherit the Kingdom of God. This is in relation to a loss of salvation because in Matthew 25:34, we learn that the phrase “inherit the kingdom” is in context to salvation in the fact that they would enter God’s Kingdom by helping to poor in this life vs. those who did not do so (By which they were told to go away into everlasting punishment - Matthew 25:46).

I'm afraid your understanding of the bible is extremely shallow. It is limited to reading random scriptures and only being able to rationalise according to the letter itself. Which leaves you with misguided understanding. As a Jewish believer said: The quran can be understood simply by reading the letter of it, the bible was not meant to be understood that way''. And to be honest, as you are someone that demands of others what you do not demand of yourself, scripturally speaking you will not understand what is contained in the letter of scripture. Anyway, there is no usefulness in reading your pat statements that bear no reality to your actual life, so I will put you on ignore. Goodbye

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So you want to take the gamble of your soul on a euphemism? Lost generally characterizes one not being saved in the New Testament. Just look up the word in the NT at blue letter Bible.

When speaking doctrinally yes it does. When speaking in a Jewish idiom- no it doesn't. There are dozens of literal specific passages that tell me I am saved forever! That is why my heart sings. It is not a license ot live wrong- but a joyous burden to serve Him! Knowing that when I do fail, I have already received full forgiveness eternally, and only need acknowlege my sin, to recieve pardon experientially.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Those who make false claims of lack of one’s Bible knowledge when they justify the idea that they can sin and still be saved…

(a). Do not always address all of the verses put forth to them (because they are incapable of explaining them because it refutes their false theology). If they do address any verses it usually an attempt to ignore the text by changing what it plainly says.
(b). Do not accept the plain reading of 1 Timothy 6:3-4.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

When speaking doctrinally yes it does. When speaking in a Jewish idiom- no it doesn't. There are dozens of literal specific passages that tell me I am saved forever! That is why my heart sings. It is not a license ot live wrong- but a joyous burden to serve Him! Knowing that when I do fail, I have already received full forgiveness eternally, and only need acknowlege my sin, to recieve pardon experientially.

Give me a verse that says you are saved forever, and we can read it in context. For example: Many of you love to quote John 10 in that you cannot be snatched out of His hand, but you fail to look at the context of that verse that teaches that this only applies to those sheep who FOLLOW Jesus and not lazy disobedient sheep.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I will keep this as brief as possible. I don’t like long posts. When I was 20 God got me out of what I can only describe as one of the most dire situations imaginable. When I was in that situation I promised him my life. A year later, totally and dramatically changed by God, he wanted me to keep my promise to Him. I failed to do so, to my shame. I went out with someone God showed me I should not go out with. After seven awful years we broke up. I was a shadow of the person I had been before I went out with the woman. I had been committing awful sin during that time, though I could never do so happily, I felt dreadful as I was committing it. For the next few years I just gambled and drank too much, always with a severe conscience at doing so. In the end I ended up on the streets getting drunk with others who had nowhere to live.

Then, one day I was introduced to a woman. She was in a mess, she had two children by two different men, the kids were on an at risk register, due to the youngest child’s father’s behaviour through alcohol and drugs. She had spent time as a prostitute, took drugs herself, smoked, drank to oblivion, had never worked in her life, and had many affairs. Three months later we got married. There was no ‘’grand’’ return to God by me. I had always kept praying at times, despite my general bad life, so I just prayed God would change the woman, and I left it to Him. To cut a long story short, over time the woman completely changed. She stopped drinking, drugs and smoking, the children got taken off an at risk register, she went out to work, became a Christian and got baptised. She then each week went to church. We ended up owning our own home. I have read of such dramatic changes in books, but never seen such change in a person in the flesh. Incidentally, my wife was never once told ‘’she must obey the ten commandments’’ nor was she told she could only remain saved/justified if she obeyed NT laws etc, I don’t think that would have helped change her. The point is this. Many would say, that God would just desert me after I let him down as I did, and lived as I had, but he didn’t. He blessed my wife and I wonderfully. He proved His love had not changed towards me. So your point about the prodigal son was proved true in my own life. I stand with King David ‘’I trust in God’s unfailing love forever and ever'' And that love is expressed to us under the new covenant by Christ dying for our sins at calvary

Thank you for sharing this. I hope the rest of your lives are filled with His joy and deep love for each other!

People seem to forget that it is His love that draws us. I was one that needed to be drawn by fear, but the gospel is a message of love and redemption!

If God gave us what we still deserve we would go to hell! but His mercy is beyond comprehensio and love beyond knowledge. It is this that burns my heart oserve HIm> Not to stay saved, But because II am saved forever!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Give me a verse that says you are saved forever, and we can read it in context. For example: Many of you love to quote John 10 in that you cannot be snatched out of His hand, but you fail to look at the context of that verse that teaches that this only applies to those sheep who FOLLOW Jesus and not lazy disobedient sheep.

Well you seem to forget that sheep are sheep. And we will follow Jesus. We may stray and wander at times- but that is why our good Shepherd has His rod and staff! Being saved is not merely saying a prayer- but it is a transformation!

If one is a sheep- they are saved. If one is not saved they are a goat!

But verses I am sure you are familiar with ( I paraphrase them)

We are already seated in heavenly places
We are dead amnd our lives are his with christ.
When Jesus appears we shall appear with him
We have been perfected forever.
We were elected from the foundation of the world
We are predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus
We are foreknown by God
We are already justified
We are already glorified
Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith
Jesus will complete the good work He began in us
Though we stumble- God will keep us from falling
HIs mercies are fresh and new every morning!
Yes no one can snatch us out of His hands.
we are given eternal life and will never perish!
Jesus became our sin so we would become the righteousness of Jesus.
All of our sins were paid for at teh cross. Not 99 44/100% of them.

I am sure you are familiar with these comforting verses. there are more if you wish.

But concerning sinful Christians.

1. they are living lives of misery. there is pleasure in son- but only for a season. After that it is misery for the believer until they acknowledge their sin.

2. 1 John said that some leave because they NEVER were of us.

3. Matt. 7 Jesus said many may look like sheep but they are in reality goats.

4. Parable of the wheat and tares. Teh tares look just like wheat till near the end. Only God knows.

God forbid we should sin. But if we do, we have an advocate- Jesus!
If we acknowledge our sin HE is faithful to forgive and HE will cleanse us.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well you seem to forget that sheep are sheep. And we will follow Jesus. We may stray and wander at times- but that is why our good Shepherd has His rod and staff! Being saved is not merely saying a prayer- but it is a transformation!

If one is a sheep- they are saved. If one is not saved they are a goat!

But verses I am sure you are familiar with ( I paraphrase them)

We are already seated in heavenly places
We are dead amnd our lives are his with christ.
When Jesus appears we shall appear with him
We have been perfected forever.
We were elected from the foundation of the world
We are predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus
We are foreknown by God
We are already justified
We are already glorified
Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith
Jesus will complete the good work He began in us
Though we stumble- God will keep us from falling
HIs mercies are fresh and new every morning!
Yes no one can snatch us out of His hands.
we are given eternal life and will never perish!
Jesus became our sin so we would become the righteousness of Jesus.
All of our sins were paid for at teh cross. Not 99 44/100% of them.

I am sure you are familiar with these comforting verses. there are more if you wish.

I asked for a verse. A specific citation in Scripture. Some of these references are clear to find and other references you made are more “wishy washy” in that it is merely speaking your own opinion. I would prefer Scriptural references because some of these sayings are not exactly taken verbatim from the Bible. So please take the time to get the actual Scriptural citations so we can discuss them.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I asked for a verse. A specific citation in Scripture. Some of these references are clear to find and other references you made are more “wishy washy” in that it is merely speaking your own opinion. I would prefer Scriptural references because some of these sayings are not exactly taken verbatim from the Bible. So please take the time to get the actual Scriptural citations so we can discuss them.

No they are all bible verses! As I said I paraphrased some for times sake to get them to you!

Colossians 3
King James Version

3 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.


If here is the conditional better translated as "Since".

Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Philippians 2:12-14
King James Version

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Hebrews 10:9-11
King James Version

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Ephesians 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 1:3-7
King James Version

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:36
King James Version

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

John 10:27-29
King James Version

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


Romans 8:28-39
King James Version

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Colossians 2:13-15
King James Version

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.


If you need more, let me know.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well you seem to forget that sheep are sheep. And we will follow Jesus. We may stray and wander at times- but that is why our good Shepherd has His rod and staff! Being saved is not merely saying a prayer- but it is a transformation!

If one is a sheep- they are saved. If one is not saved they are a goat!

In the Parable of the Sheep and Goats (in Matthew 25:31-46): We learn that those who did not help the poor in this life were told to go away into everlasting punishment. Those who did help the poor were told to inherit the Kingdom. Nothing is stated here in this Parable as to the reason why. But looking at the whole counsel of God’s Word (even the parable before it) suggests that you have to be faithful, and holy. Those who justify sin under God’s grace cannot possibly live holy because they are breaking the standard of upholding holiness to begin with. In other words, if one rejects the Bible’s teaching on how sin can destroy our soul and we don’t confess and forsake those sins (otherwise we abide in spiritual death), then one will not worry about sin and lead others into sin with the thinking that one is saved.

But verses I am sure you are familiar with ( I paraphrase them)

We are already seated in heavenly places

You allude here to Ephesians 2:6. But if you were to read the context, it is talking about our Initial Salvation in coming to Jesus for the first time in how we used to be sinners, and then we became saved by God’s grace (a process of salvation without works), and how we are created unto Christ Jesus for good works (works of faith). But the primary focus of this chapter is how we were first saved by God’s grace like it is a gift (Ephesians 2:8). Nowhere is Paul saying that you can continue to no longer have to worry about doing good works because you are saved by God’s grace. Nowhere does Paul say you can be unfruitful and still be saved here, either. Titus 1:16 would refute that idea. So would Titus 3:14.

Nothing is said whether or not this “being seated in heavenly places” is permanent.
Nothing is said whether one is actually saved the whole time while they are seated in heavenly places, either. What would I say something like this? Well, the devil was able to go before God and make his case against Job. That does mean the devil was saved just because he was in God’s Kingdom making a case against Job.

In John 8:34-35, Jesus basically says that the slave to sin will not abide in the house forever. Meaning, the slave to sin will not abide in the house of Christ forever. We see this take place in Matthew 13:41-42. The Son of Man (Jesus) will send forth His angels and they will gather out of HIS Kingdom and those who do iniquity and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire). These were the weeds or false believers. But it says that they were in HIS Kingdom. But they are going to be cast out at the end at the Judgment. So while I am not claiming this as 100% biblical fact, it is possible that those believers who were once saved by God’s grace and seated in heavenly places can then be dead spiritually later by justifying sin while still being seated in heavenly places. This will then explain why they will be cast out of Christ’s Kingdom. In either case, Ephesians 2:6 is not a good case to make that one is once saved always saved. Nothing is stated that their salvation is permanent in this verse (no matter what they do).

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You allude here to Ephesians 2:6. But if you were to read the context, it is talking about our Initial Salvation in coming to Jesus for the first time in how we used to be sinners, and then we became saved by God’s grace (a process of salvation without works), and how we are created unto Christ Jesus for good works (works of faith). But the primary focus of this chapter is how we were first saved by God’s grace like it is a gift (Ephesians 2:8). Nowhere is Paul saying that you can continue to no longer have to worry about doing good works because you are saved by God’s grace. Nowhere does Paul say you can be unfruitful and still be saved here, either. Titus 1:16 would refute that idea. So would Titus 3:14.

and I never implied otherwise!