Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?

[Grailhunter]

He said: "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father"

What does that mean to you?

Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” John 20:28

 

[Keiw]

Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” John 20:28

Most assuredly said my Lord to Jesus and looked to heaven and said my God. Thefact is every Israelite knew 100% the Messiah has a God.( Psalm 45:7) And everyone knows God does not have a God, so its the only feasable explanation of Thomas words.

 

[Aunty Jane]

He said: "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father"

What does that mean to you?

“Like Father, like son”. Jesus so accurately reflected his Father’s personality, that to see Jesus was to see his Father, who was also his God. He is a servant of his Father, not an equal. (Acts 4:27)
There is no “God the Son” in a single passage of scripture. Jesus only ever claimed to be “the son of God”....which is not the same at all. There is no “God the Holy Spirit” in the Bible either.

After his return to heaven, in which case I assume that trinitarians believe he resumed his position as “God Almighty”....why did he refer to his Father as “my God”, four times in Revelation 3:12?

Can God have a God in heaven?
If the Jews accused him of blasphemy by merely claiming that Yahweh was his Father, imagine what they would have said if he had claimed to be God incarnate!?

John 10:33-36...
“The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself a god.” 34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified— 36 do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?”

Read in the Greek Interlinear, the Jews were not saying that Jesus claimed to be “ho theos” but simply “theos”. He only ever claimed to be “the son of God”...(i.e. the son of “ho theos) never did he claim equality with his Father, because that would have breached the first Commandment. (Exodus 20:3)

If Yahweh himself called the judges in Israel “gods” then the word “theos” doesn’t mean what trinitarians think it does.

 

[Grailhunter]

Most assuredly said my Lord to Jesus and looked to heaven and said my God. Thefact is every Israelite knew 100% the Messiah has a God.( Psalm 45:7) And everyone knows God does not have a God, so its the only feasable explanation of Thomas words.

Ya know.....real Christians do not have to explain away the scriptures or produce their own denominational Bible to change the scriptures to support their own beliefs. And there is so many Protestant denominations, but if you look at their history they splintered off of older Protestant denominations, for one reason or another. But the Jehovah's Witnesses are a relatively new denomination the seemed to pop out of nowhere. A heresy that has a very Jewish tang to it. The Jews in the day thought that Christ was a magician. And in many ways it is an attack on Christ and Christianity. They say Christ was not Divine....they say hell does not exist.....they do not celebrate Christian holidays. Like a cult they excommunicate some that leave their denomination, even their family....and what do they do to their families?

What is the Two Witness Rule within the Jehovah's Witnesses....it is the subject of intense international criticism, lawsuits and a Royal Commission, the Two Witness Rule is the Jehovah Witnesses’ interpretation of scripture that, in the absence of a confession, there must be two material witnesses to a sin for them to act on it.

Critics say the policy protects accused pedophiles, because there are rarely witnesses to sexual abuse. Perverts don't usually molest children in front of their friends and neighbors.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses Governing Body insist they “abhor sexual abuse,” do not protect pedophiles and educate followers on protecting children.

Now I have worked with professional interventionists to rescue young people from that denomination. As I have said, I do not consider the Jehovah's Witnesses as a cult but interventionists definitely consider them a cult. And one of the strangest sessions that I witnessed was with a very intelligent 10 year old...almost spooky intelligence like she had the Bible memorized. She did not have a lot of good things to say about Christ. You could tell her religious reverences focused on God the Father.

In the middle the session one the interventionists walked away and called the sheriff department. Because the little girl's conversation had turned to a discussion of having sex with her father. And she defended it as if it was a religious belief of the Jehovah's Witnesses and felt honored to get on her knees before her father.

I was not surprised of the sexual contact, just the religious element of it. Was this a personal belief of her's or an underlying belief of some in the organization....sexual perversions are a characteristic of cults.

The Sheriff listened to part of the interview and could hardly contained himself. She was speaking with pride and she told of a time when her older sister tried to run away and her father stripped her and beat her with a belt. The father was arrested just a few minutes later.

Now the reason I was not surprised about the incest is because if you look on the internet this a worldwide problem with the Jehovah's Witnesses....arrests and court cases.

Type this into your browser and it will bring up testimonies of past Jehovah's witnesses that were abused. Select videos.
testimonies of former jehovah's witnesses sexual molestations

 

[Keiw]

Ya know.....real Christians do not have to explain away the scriptures or produce their own denominational Bible to change the scriptures to support their own beliefs. And there is so many Protestant denominations, but if you look at their history they splintered off of older Protestant denominations, for one reason or another. But the Jehovah's Witnesses are a relatively new denomination the seemed to pop out of nowhere. A heresy that has a very Jewish tang to it. The Jews in the day thought that Christ was a magician. And in many ways it is an attack on Christ and Christianity. They say Christ was not Divine....they say hell does not exist.....they do not celebrate Christian holidays. Like a cult they excommunicate some that leave their denomination, even their family....and what do they do to their families?

What is the Two Witness Rule within the Jehovah's Witnesses....it is the subject of intense international criticism, lawsuits and a Royal Commission, the Two Witness Rule is the Jehovah Witnesses’ interpretation of scripture that, in the absence of a confession, there must be two material witnesses to a sin for them to act on it.

Critics say the policy protects accused pedophiles, because there are rarely witnesses to sexual abuse. Perverts don't usually molest children in front of their friends and neighbors.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses Governing Body insist they “abhor sexual abuse,” do not protect pedophiles and educate followers on protecting children.

Now I have worked with professional interventionists to rescue young people from that denomination. As I have said, I do not consider the Jehovah's Witnesses as a cult but interventionists definitely consider them a cult. And one of the strangest sessions that I witnessed was with a very intelligent 10 year old...almost spooky intelligence like she had the Bible memorized. She did not have a lot of good things to say about Christ. You could tell her religious reverences focused on God the Father.

In the middle the session one the interventionists walked away and called the sheriff department. Because the little girl's conversation had turned to a discussion of having sex with her father. And she defended it as if it was a religious belief of the Jehovah's Witnesses and felt honored to get on her knees before her father.

I was not surprised of the sexual contact, just the religious element of it. Was this a personal belief of her's or an underlying belief of some in the organization....sexual perversions are a characteristic of cults.

The Sheriff listened to part of the interview and could hardly contained himself. She was speaking with pride and she told of a time when her older sister tried to run away and her father stripped her and beat her with a belt. The father was arrested just a few minutes later.

Now the reason I was not surprised about the incest is because if you look on the internet this a worldwide problem with the Jehovah's Witnesses....arrests and court cases.

Type this into your browser and it will bring up testimonies of past Jehovah's witnesses that were abused. Select videos.
testimonies of former jehovah's witnesses sexual molestations

Jesus taught--Members of ones own household would be their enemies. Matt 10:36---
About disfellowshipping--Titus 1:13--Reprove with severity. 1Cor 5:9-13--do not even share a meal with one who was called brother or sister( baptized) who became unrepentent.
Gods word demands 2 witnesses to prove a matter. John 8:17) So you need to take that up with him.
The JW,s would never condone paedophiles. There are bad men every where on earth, even in Gods religion, in every religion.--Remember Judas, he isnt the only one. The Israelites fell over and over, any one can fall and practice bad.
You are listening to apostates who try to reason that its every one elses fault they were disfellowshipped instead of pointing finger at self where it belongs pointed., so to appease their own thinking look for any excuse to make crap up. I have read many apostate writings, i found lies in every one of them.

 

[Grailhunter]

Jesus taught--Members of ones own household would be their enemies. Matt 10:36---
About disfellowshipping--Titus 1:13--Reprove with severity. 1Cor 5:9-13--do not even share a meal with one who was called brother or sister( baptized) who became unrepentent.
Gods word demands 2 witnesses to prove a matter. John 8:17) So you need to take that up with him.

Again action taken by a religion against those that leave the denomination is characteristic of cults. People have the right to change what they believe and join other denominations with out harassment.

Using the scriptures to protect these people is despicable!

The JW,s would never condone paedophiles. There are bad men every where on earth, even in Gods religion, in every religion.--Remember Judas, he isnt the only one. The Israelites fell over and over, any one can fall and practice bad.

Is this a justification! And you are right child molestation and rape occurs in and out of any denomination. But some are more well known for it than others. The Catholics have been dealing with this for centuries with no resolution in sight. And like the Catholics sexual abuse by the Jehovah's Witnesses is worldwide and has too many occurrences and witnesses that have testified in court for it not to be true. And again it has been going on for a long time. The two witnesses policy only exasperates the problem and proves there is no resolution in sight. I have never heard of a kingdom hall taking the testimony of a victim.

The mother of the child I talked about had left the Jehovah's Witnesses and divorced her husband and was ordered by court to allow the father to have here on every other weekend. And the abuse continued... She talked to the kingdom hall and they just denied it. But as it is the court accepted the testimony of a child that was so articulate and intelligent as well as the video taped discussion during the intervention. The father is serving 20 years in prison. Of course the kingdom hall protested trying to protect the perv.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I get answers from Sripture without commentary

When Jesus quoted scripture, the Jews were familiar with the verses he quoted from their perspective, yet to his apostles he still added commentary to make sure they got the point.

Well you rproblem is god has laways been a three in one god. Maybe unrevealed to most Israelis, but they had enough clues.

The Jews to this day do not worship a triune god for the same reason that Jesus never mentioned one. At that time, only the pagans had triune deities. Yahweh was different to the gods of the nations because he was “ONE”....no scripture says he is three.

The Shma- Hear O Israel Jehovah your Elohim is one Jehovah- Totally nonsensical grammar and thinking if Jehovah was only one person.

Why? He was distinguishing himself from the false gods of the nations, so why would he not emphasize that he was “ONE”?
Multiplicities of gods were a trait of false worship....never believed by the true worshippers of Yahweh.

But one here is "echad" which in Hebrew is the one used often for "compound one"

I cannot find a reference for echad in any of my research tools.
Perhaps you can tell me why...?

Elohim is plural
Adaonai is plural.

There is more than one explanation for the plural....
There is the plural of majesty...the royal “WE”.
There is also another person whom Yahweh was addressing....not a separate part of himself, but his Logos, who has been with Yahweh since creation began.

John 1:1 confirms this...."the beginning” is a meaningless term when describing an eternal Being who had no beginning and who will have no end to his existence. So “In the beginning” there, has to be the same sort of “beginning” as Genesis 1:1....there was a time when the Word (Logos) did not exist and was created by his Father, who was his begetter long before his earthly mission.

“Monogenes” (only begotten) means an only or unique child.....the son of God was his first “creation” as Jesus says in Revelation 3:14 and Paul said in Colossians 1:15.
He is God’s “firstborn” and for a time was his only child.....he then was instrumental in bringing about all creation at his Father’s side, (Proverbs 8:30-31)....but he is not and never was Yahweh.
He was the ‘construction crew’ putting the raw materials together that his Father had brought into existence....he is never once called “the Creator”. He was the fabricator....the one "through" whom all creation was made. (Colossians 1:15-17)

God said let "us" make man in "our image" We are not made in the image of God and angels

Since the “image” that God speaks about is not a physical image, (he is an invisible spirit) that has to mean that intelligent beings were created with the Creator’s qualities....his moral characteristics.

Many other OT clues, that awaited teh NT to clarify!

Clues??? Is that what you base your trinitarian beliefs on? That is circumstantial evidence which scripturally is inadmissible because there is no clear, direct statement about it.....yet there are clear direct, statements against it.

Jesus plainly stated “the Father is greater than I am”....he also said he ‘could do nothing of his own but only what the Father had taught him’....
John 5:19-20...
"Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel." (NKJV)

The apostles were in no doubt as to who was their “God” and who was their “Lord”.
1 Corinthians 8:5-6.....
"For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live..”

Clear unequivocal statements outdo “clues” as to who Yahweh is and who his son is.....the scriptures do not teach a trinity unless you squeeze meaning into verses that are easy to manipulate. English translations were written with a trinitarian viewpoint and hence skewed towards that RCC invented doctrine......as authentic as “Mary the mother of God" and "purgatory".

But even Stan himself gives us a clue! Satan is the great imitator and counterfeiter. IN the OT days when he established his many pagan religions, most of them has a TRIAD of head gods with the demi gods being the angels etc. Triad is a counterfeit for the biblical trinity./

I believe that the opposite is true, judging by Israel’s history and their constant defections into false worship.

The one thing that you always see in satan’s arsenal is that he lures true worshippers into what is false.... Israel was constantly taking excursions into false worship, adopting pagan ideas and practices....trying to fuse the two together to create a religion that was nothing like the original. Christendom has done the same...instead of sticking with the teachings left by Jesus, they too adopted false worship and tried to fuse it into Christian worship. That did not “Christianize” the paganism, but simply paganized the Christianity, till it too was far from the teachings that were instituted by Christ in the first century.

You only have to look at their yearly celebrations.....none of them are commanded by Jesus and the commercial system has hijacked them so that their pagan roots are so well disguised by greedy men trying to make themselves wealthy, that most people are unaware of what they are really celebrating.....
2 Corinthians 6:14-18 means nothing to them....
"14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

“I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.”


17 Therefore
“Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you.”
18 “I will be a Father to you,
And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the Lord Almighty.” (NKJV)

We have to separate from spiritually "unclean" things....or God will not accept us as his sons and daughters....

 

[Rita]

Ya know.....real Christians do not have to explain away the scriptures or produce their own denominational Bible to change the scriptures to support their own beliefs. And there is so many Protestant denominations, but if you look at their history they splintered off of older Protestant denominations, for one reason or another. But the Jehovah's Witnesses are a relatively new denomination the seemed to pop out of nowhere. A heresy that has a very Jewish tang to it. The Jews in the day thought that Christ was a magician. And in many ways it is an attack on Christ and Christianity. They say Christ was not Divine....they say hell does not exist.....they do not celebrate Christian holidays. Like a cult they excommunicate some that leave their denomination, even their family....and what do they do to their families?

Years ago read a book about JW’s , and it stated that a young man left an Adventist Church because he was not happy with them preaching about hell and a few other things. He started to write his own tracts and found that people were interested in what he had to say - so he continued. He was apparently the founder of the JW’s , if it was true then this denomination actually came from an off shoot of the Adventist Church in 1884 , originally the watch towers and tract society - it became the Jehovah witnesses in 1931.

My Ex husbands uncle was quite high up in the church and would come over and stay with us, the way he treated his wife was appalling, he never really offered to pay for anything , didn’t hold with blood transfusions but was quite happy to eat rare steak with blood oozing out of it ( never understood that ), he had also been divorced twice and left one wife here in England to go and marry someone else in the USA. Yet he was considered perfectly okay to be a leader within the church. He would preach continuously and we would always get visits from the local JWs before and after his visits.
Sad to say I had little respect for him or what he stood for, I had been a Christian for about Two years when I first met him. He would accuse me of all kinds of things. When my marriage ended because of my husbands adultery he accused me of being to blame because of Eves actions in the garden !
Oh yes, he also accused me of being of the devil because I was. Christian outside of the JW’s …..
Sorry gone off topic !

 

[Grailhunter]

Years ago read a book about JW’s , and it stated that a young man left an Adventist Church because he was not happy with them preaching about hell and a few other things. He started to write his own tracts and found that people were interested in what he had to say - so he continued. He was apparently the founder of the JW’s , if it was true then this denomination actually came from an off shoot of the Adventist Church in 1884 , originally the watch towers and tract society - it became the Jehovah witnesses in 1931.

Well the history of the Jehovah's Witness and the Watchtower is a little convoluted. But I would not say that the Jehovah's Witnesses are a variation of the Adventist church.

My Ex husbands uncle was quite high up in the church and would come over and stay with us, the way he treated his wife was appalling, he never really offered to pay for anything , didn’t hold with blood transfusions but was quite happy to eat rare steak with blood oozing out of it ( never understood that ), he had also been divorced twice and left one wife here in England to go and marry someone else in the USA. Yet he was considered perfectly okay to be a leader within the church. He would preach continuously and we would always get visits from the local JWs before and after his visits.
Sad to say I had little respect for him or what he stood for, I had been a Christian for about Two years when I first met him. He would accuse me of all kinds of things. When my marriage ended because of my husbands adultery he accused me of being to blame because of Eves actions in the garden !
Oh yes, he also accused me of being of the devil because I was. Christian outside of the JW’s …..
Sorry gone off topic !

Well there is a certain amount of humor there. LOL They are kind of in your face kind of people. I have had a few physical encounters with them. They are challenging but cowards, once you have them by the throat they settle down quickly. Of course they are not the only ones that think that their way is the only way. And they are not all moral, if they believe there is no hell they can live their lives and do what they want and the worse that can happen is to die.....oblivion.

In their religion it does not matter if you are Jehovah's Witness or a pagan either way the punishment is the same.....oblivion. They believe bad people or destroyed, erased, oblivion.....not conscience of anything.

When they come to the door I do not invite them in the house....pretty much treat them like vampires.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Years ago read a book about JW’s , and it stated that a young man left an Adventist Church because he was not happy with them preaching about hell and a few other things. He started to write his own tracts and found that people were interested in what he had to say - so he continued. He was apparently the founder of the JW’s , if it was true then this denomination actually came from an off shoot of the Adventist Church in 1884 , originally the watch towers and tract society - it became the Jehovah witnesses in 1931.

My Ex husbands uncle was quite high up in the church and would come over and stay with us, the way he treated his wife was appalling, he never really offered to pay for anything , didn’t hold with blood transfusions but was quite happy to eat rare steak with blood oozing out of it ( never understood that ), he had also been divorced twice and left one wife here in England to go and marry someone else in the USA. Yet he was considered perfectly okay to be a leader within the church. He would preach continuously and we would always get visits from the local JWs before and after his visits.
Sad to say I had little respect for him or what he stood for, I had been a Christian for about Two years when I first met him. He would accuse me of all kinds of things. When my marriage ended because of my husbands adultery he accused me of being to blame because of Eves actions in the garden !
Oh yes, he also accused me of being of the devil because I was. Christian outside of the JW’s …..
Sorry gone off topic !

Rita, I am really sorry if you had a bad experience with one man who sounds like he was not a good example of what we teach....yet when its close to home, things can be misconstrued and misunderstood. Since I don't have the other side of this story, (and I am assuming it was a long time ago) I will reserve judgment. But let me assure you that those who do not live the truth that Jesus taught, regardless of the label they wear, will not get past the front door of the Kingdom. The one thing that God hates intensely is hypocrisy. Jesus castigated the Pharisees for that reason...pretending to be the pious teachers of God's word when their actions spoke louder than their words. (Matthew 23)

 

[Rita]

Hi Grailhunter
I don’t think I said that the JWs were adventists, just that one man was not happy with some of the teaching and decided to leave and then produce tracts of his own, which became popular. I have no idea what was in those tracts. My point was that they developed from someone leaving a denomination.
Rita

 

[Rita]

Aunty Jane
It was a very long time ago and my conclusions were not just defined from my encounters with this member of my husbands family. Right from an early start in my Christian life I tested things - his words impacted me , so it sparked a questioning time.
Our communications spanned many years and
It ultimately led me to ‘ look into ‘ things for myself.

 

[Grailhunter]

and it stated that a young man left an Adventist Church because he was not happy with them preaching about hell and a few other things.

Oh no you did not....you said....and it stated that a young man left an Adventist Church because he was not happy with them preaching about hell and a few other things.....so it is not like Jehovah's Witnesses splintered off that denomination. It pretty much was the brain child of Charles Taze Russell.

 

[Rita]

Oh no you did not....you said....and it stated that a young man left an Adventist Church because he was not happy with them preaching about hell and a few other things.....so it is not like Jehovah's Witnesses splintered off that denomination. It pretty much was the brain child of Charles Taze Russell.

Yes and it was Russell who left the Adventist church. I see what you are saying , although It sounded as if he didn’t totally disagree with everything the taught, only certain things. Sadly we don’t know what was in the original tracts , and as we know teaching can change. So it may well have contained some of the teaching from the Adventist’s that he agreed with, which would mean it was an off shoot that then completely went a separate way over time
Rita

 

[Ronald Nolette]

verse 4 proves my point. If God didnt make the name Jesus above other names he would be equal to the angels---one cannot reason it any different.
No the angels did not worship him, they bowed in obesiance to Gods appointed king. Its the same Greek word used for worship to God. Jesus has a God. God does not have a God.

No

YOu say it proves your point only because you havew been indoctrinated to think that way. There is nothing in Scripture that sayd Jesus name was equal to angelic names. It could be just as much an inferior name- Scripture doesn't say. You are guessing.

And remember teh name Jesus is God the Sons name since His humanity!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

When Jesus quoted scripture, the Jews were familiar with the verses he quoted from their perspective, yet to his apostles he still added commentary to make sure they got the point.

Well Jesus is infalliblew, the Watchtower or any man made organization is not.

The Jews to this day do not worship a triune god for the same reason that Jesus never mentioned one. At that time, only the pagans had triune deities. Yahweh was different to the gods of the nations because he was “ONE”....no scripture says he is three.

Correct. and there is still a veil over their eyes at the reading of Moses.

Why? He was distinguishing himself from the false gods of the nations, so why would he not emphasize that he was “ONE”?
Multiplicities of gods were a trait of false worship....never believed by the true worshippers of Yahweh.

Incorrect. Teh triads that were common in those ancient days were "three" separate gods with three separate natures. YHWH was saying something very different. Grammatically this sentence is nonsensical unless.

I cannot find a reference for echad in any of my research tools.
Perhaps you can tell me why...?

I cannot explain why your tools do not have them

There is more than one explanation for the plural....
There is the plural of majesty...the royal “WE”.
There is also another person whom Yahweh was addressing....not a separate part of himself, but his Logos, who has been with Yahweh since creation began.

And the way the WT uses plurality of majesty is a lie!

Man is made in YHWH"S image. YOu bel;ieve Jesus was Michael prior ot His birth and the angles are not in the image of God. so that is a falsehood.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

John 1:1 confirms this...."the beginning” is a meaningless term when describing an eternal Being who had no beginning and who will have no end to his existence. So “In the beginning” there, has to be the same sort of “beginning” as Genesis 1:1....there was a time when the Word (Logos) did not exist and was created by his Father, who was his begetter long before his earthly mission.

Wrong again. En arche en hos Logos does not mean Jesus was created. The second en is a verb in the imperfect and means that the Word in the beginning already had continual constant existence. We would say perpetual.

The beginning is speaking of the physical universe.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.

I know the Watchtower has added to Gods Word by falsely adding the Word "other" but it does not appear in the manuscripts at all. It was inserted to support their false doctrine that Jesus is a created being.

Now

“Monogenes” (only begotten) means an only or unique child.....the son of God was his first “creation” as Jesus says in Revelation 3:14 and Paul said in Colossians 1:15.
He is God’s “firstborn” and for a time was his only child.....he then was instrumental in bringing about all creation at his Father’s side, (Proverbs 8:30-31)....but he is not and never was Yahweh.
He was the ‘construction crew’ putting the raw materials together that his Father had brought into existence....he is never once called “the Creator”. He was the fabricator....the one "through" whom all creation was made. (Colossians 1:15-17)

the human part of Jesus is the only begotten child of the Father! This part is true

But monogenes does not mean unique!

And sorry as it says in God's Word and not the Watchtower word-

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Adding the word other brings damnation to the Watchtower! It is not in Scripture and should not appear in anyones writings who claims to love God!

Yes Jesus is Gods firstborn- but firstborn also had another common usage in Jesus' day that the Watchtower ignores- it means heir! The firstborn were heirs to their Fathers wealth. When people spoke in those days and used the term "first-born" it was understood they were the heir!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Clues??? Is that what you base your trinitarian beliefs on? That is circumstantial evidence which scripturally is inadmissible because there is no clear, direct statement about it.....yet there are clear direct, statements against it.

Jesus plainly stated “the Father is greater than I am”....he also said he ‘could do nothing of his own but only what the Father had taught him’....
John 5:19-20...
"Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel." (NKJV)

The apostles were in no doubt as to who was their “God” and who was their “Lord”.
1 Corinthians 8:5-6.....
"For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live..”

Clear unequivocal statements outdo “clues” as to who Yahweh is and who his son is.....the scriptures do not teach a trinity unless you squeeze meaning into verses that are easy to manipulate. English translations were written with a trinitarian viewpoint and hence skewed towards that RCC invented doctrine......as authentic as “Mary the mother of God" and "purgatory".

Sorry, but biblical clues are things that were only alluded to in the OT that were explained in the New!

Jesus is called god, is equal to God and seeing Jesus is seeing god. He existed as God prior to becoming human. I am simply quoting fact of the bible.

And what JW's commonly do is confuse Jesus position with His nature.

Teh Father is above all! He is th emost exalted!
then comes Jesus and then the Holy Spirit.

But while the Father is greater in position and authority He is not more God as to essence or nature as the Son and Spirit!

They are all equally god though do not have the same authority.

Just like a family. Teh father, Mother, and children all hold different ranks of authority in a home, they are all equally human.

Jesus was known to be God the son long before teh RCC became. But if you have the manuscript evidence to back up your mouth with its claims that English translations are skewed- I am more than willing to see teh evidence.

Otherwise it is just verbal methane.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Continued From No.1054

if they believe there is no hell they can live their lives and do what they want and the
worse that can happen is to die.....oblivion. In their religion it does not matter if you are
Jehovah's Witness or a pagan either way the punishment is the same.....oblivion. They
believe bad people or destroyed, erased, oblivion.....not conscience of
anything.

There's a spiritual term in JW jargon called "life force". This element of a
sentient being's existence doesn't expire at death; and can be transferred
from one form to an entirely different form.

For example in the JW religion, Michael the archangel's life force was
transferred to Mary's ovum so an angel could come into the world as a man;
and then later when his human form passed away on the cross, Michael's life
force was returned to its angel form so he could be his old self again.

Life force isn't nondescript, viz: when Michael's life force was transferred to
Mary's ovum, he retained the continuity of his individuality.

Now, it seems reasonable to me that if angels exist by means of life force,
then humans probably do too. That suggests the possibility that a human's
life force can be transferred to a different form in a manner similar to
transferring an angel's life force to a different form.

That helps lend some credibility to the story told at Luke 16:19-31. All three
of the men in that story are deceased, yet there they are; fully conscious in
the afterlife.

• Ecc 12:7 . . Then the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be
and the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it.

The million-dollar question is: What comes next for a Jehovah's Witness' life
force when it gets back in God's hands?
_

 

[Grailhunter]

.
Continued From No.1054


There's a spiritual term in JW jargon called "life force". This element of a
sentient being's existence doesn't expire at death; and can be transferred
from one form to an entirely different form.

For example in the JW religion, Michael the archangel's life force was
transferred to Mary's ovum so an angel could come into the world as a man;
and then later when his human form passed away on the cross, Michael's life
force was returned to its angel form so he could be his old self again.

Life force isn't nondescript, viz: when Michael's life force was transferred to
Mary's ovum, he retained the continuity of his individuality.

Now, it seems reasonable to me that if angels exist by means of life force,
then humans probably do too. That suggests the possibility that a human's
life force can be transferred to a different form in a manner similar to
transferring an angel's life force to a different form.

That helps lend some credibility to the story told at Luke 16:19-31. All three
of the men in that story are deceased, yet there they are; fully conscious in
the afterlife.

• Ecc 12:7 . . Then the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be
and the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it.

The million-dollar question is: What comes next for a Jehovah's Witness' life
force when it gets back in God's hands?
_

Very interesting. Sounds a little sci-fi. The plight of the soul....