How are we saved from sin?

[Episkopos]

That's not what it means, it says love casts or throws out all fear, meaning that all fear is gone. Your little analogy about pain is not a good one when it comes to this subject. Maybe if you look at the Greek words used in the original text you will get a clearer understanding.

Maybe you could clarify your meaning?

We as Christians are called to overcome the world. This doesn't mean that we eliminate the world...only we are not affected by what is here. Do we still perceive what is in the world? Of course. We don't become blind to the world so as not to be affected by it. Rather we overcome through the faith that brings down His presence in among us. In this way our hearts are taken up with God and not the things of the world.

Somebody who lives in a dream world can no longer see the world as it is. Drugs and other intoxicants are seen as an escape from the reality of this world. But a Christian remains sober to what the world is. His means is the greater power that abides in him. Exactly like the brave man who is encouraged to overcome his fear.

 

[Vashti]

Perfect love casts out fear meaning that our love overcomes the fear in us. A brave man still fears...but his bravery is stronger than his fear.

But that anyone could say about himself that he has no fear, he need something more than just a statement ..

Because easy to talk about bravery, but when we must remain steadfast under trial, then often is missing bravery, even in little things.

2Co 10:18 esv "(18) For it is not the one who commends himself who is approved, but the one whom the Lord commends."

Better not to imitate those who say, "With our tongue we will prevail..." itc. because these are only boasts.

 

[Episkopos]

I hope you don't mind but I would like to say what I feel about it. It is not our love that case out all fear, it is our faith in Jesus' love.

When a person truely has a matured faith in Jesus there is no room left for fear. I have no fear, not because I am sinless but because Jesus loved me (and all men) enough to hang on a cross while His blood poured out as a ransom to purchase me/us. If anyone truely believes in what Jesus did for them on the cross, without doubting, there is no room for fear.

The major point is being lost here.

If a person is filled with the love of Christ...there is no room for sin. Love acts. And this love abolishes or puts to flight that which is evil. It casts it out....but first it is recognized for what it truly is. Otherwise love casts out discernment.

 

[Episkopos]

But that anyone could say about himself that he has no fear, he need something more than just a statement ..

Because easy to talk about bravery, but when we must remain steadfast under trial, then often is missing bravery, even in little things.

2Co 10:18 esv "(18) For it is not the one who commends himself who is approved, but the one whom the Lord commends."

Better not to imitate those who say, "With our tongue we will prevail..." itc. because these are only boasts.

Jesus doesn't take us out of the world...He equips us to overcome it. As we learn to trust in God and have faith...we will turn to God in every situation. The battle is the Lord's not ours! :)

 

[Episkopos]

It is important to note that a Christian will never be not tempted at times. Jesus Himself was tempted. But with the temptation comes the means of escape. So we overcome temptations by faith. The temptations themselves are not sin. By faith we cast out the temptations. We overcome them.

Same as fears. The fears come to us as temptations to become frightened. Again we are to overcome these fears and cast them out. A fear first comes to us as a temptation to fear. We need not succumb to fear. We have faith in the abiding presence of God.

 

[jiggyfly]

It is important to note that a Christian will never be not tempted at times. Jesus Himself was tempted. But with the temptation comes the means of escape. So we overcome temptations by faith. The temptations themselves are not sin. By faith we cast out the temptations. We overcome them.

Same as fears. The fears come to us as temptations to become frightened. Again we are to overcome these fears and cast them out. A fear first comes to us as a temptation to fear. We need not succumb to fear. We have faith in the abiding presence of God.

Got some scriptural support?

 

[Episkopos]

Got some scriptural support?

I actually got the ideas from the scripture! :)

For example... We are now dead to sin who are in Christ

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

And yet we endure temptations..

Jas_1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Rev_3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

So if we are dead to sin why would we be tempted?

So it is not so much that we are impervious to things like sin and fear...rather we are empowered to overcome them through the abiding keeping power of God.


1Co_2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

1Pe_1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


The gospel IS the preaching of the power of God towards us.

Rom_1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

We overcome sin, the world and the devil through the power of God in us through the resurrection and a new birth in the Spirit.

2Co_6:7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,

We are not to associate with those who preach a form of gospel but deny the power that Jesus dies to provide us with.

Jesus Christ fulfills the law through US being empowered by Him to do so.

 

[RichardBurger]

The major point is being lost here.

If a person is filled with the love of Christ...there is no room for sin. Love acts. And this love abolishes or puts to flight that which is evil. It casts it out....but first it is recognized for what it truly is. Otherwise love casts out discernment.

Romans 8:15-16
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out,"Abba, Father."
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
NKJV

That is good enough for me.

2 Timothy 1:7-8
7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,
NKJV

Hebrews 13:5-6
5 Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."
6 So we may boldly say: "The Lord is my helper; I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
NKJV

 

[RichardBurger]

About what fear you say? Do you have someone so matured faith or perfect love that can say that he has no fear?

Mt 26:37-38 esv "(37) And taking with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, he began to be sorrowful and troubled. (38) Then he said to them, "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me.""

Łk 22:44 esv "(44) And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground."


Ap 1:17 esv "(17) When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last,"

I understand the easily write the has no fear, when it is sitting in the warm home surrounded by loving family ...

If a person is confident in Jesus' work on the cross there is no reason to fear. That person KNOWS where he/she will go when they die. It is called belief, faith, trust, and confidence in Jesus. Having said this I will add that when a person does not have these things there is always fear.

Most all "religious" people are seeking to produce good works in their lives to earn salvation. This is a never-ending battle that is filled only with fear, frustration and defeat. Until they accept the true gospel of Jesus Christ, they will never be able to rest in His finished work on the cross and consequently will never be able to experience the liberty of new life in Christ.

True liberty can come only in Christ. Only when we realize that we are SECURE in Him can we cease from our own works and rest in His work on the cross. This gives us a position of complete peace with God and there remains no fear.

 

[Prentis]

If a person is confident in Jesus' work on the cross there is no reason to fear. That person KNOWS where he/she will go when they die. It is called belief, faith, trust, and confidence in Jesus. Having said this I will add that when a person does not have these things there is always fear.

Most all "religious" people are seeking to produce good works in their lives to earn salvation. This is a never-ending battle that is filled only with fear, frustration and defeat. Until they accept the true gospel of Jesus Christ, they will never be able to rest in His finished work on the cross and consequently will never be able to experience the liberty of new life in Christ.

True liberty can come only in Christ. Only when we realize that we are SECURE in Him can we cease from our own works and rest in His work on the cross. This gives us a position of complete peace with God and there remains no fear.

We cease from our works not to do nothing... But to do the works prepared in advance. You're saying we are dead with Christ, but actually waiting to be really dead, and THEN we will be raised to newness of life... In the next life.

In the meantime, you advocate that we do NOTHING. But we are to die NOW, be raised to new life NOW, and do the works of the Father NOW. Otherwise you are preaching a gospel that denies the power of the cross NOW to actually put to death the flesh, and the power of the new nature to actually obey Christ. You are advocating the receiving of a 'new nature' which has no power whatsoever to overcome the old.

[sup]12[/sup] Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. [sup]13[/sup] Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. [sup]14[/sup] For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
[sup]15[/sup] What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! [sup]16[/sup] Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? [sup]17[/sup] But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, [sup]18[/sup] and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. [sup]19[/sup] I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

Being under grace should make it that sin has no dominion over you? Yes, because grace is the power to overcome. By the cross, we have access to this grace by which we must be powered to be one with him and walk as he walked.

 

[jiggyfly]

I actually got the ideas from the scripture! :)

For example... We are now dead to sin who are in Christ

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

And yet we endure temptations..

Jas_1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Rev_3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

So if we are dead to sin why would we be tempted?

So it is not so much that we are impervious to things like sin and fear...rather we are empowered to overcome them through the abiding keeping power of God.


1Co_2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

1Pe_1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


The gospel IS the preaching of the power of God towards us.

Rom_1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

We overcome sin, the world and the devil through the power of God in us through the resurrection and a new birth in the Spirit.

2Co_6:7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,

We are not to associate with those who preach a form of gospel but deny the power that Jesus dies to provide us with.

Jesus Christ fulfills the law through US being empowered by Him to do so.

Really good post and I find it fascinating that you can deduce your conclusion by assembling various scriptures together yet you deny the scripture that plainly speaks about perfect love casting out all fear and try to make it mean something other than the direct intent.

Really good post and I find it fascinating that you can deduce your conclusion by assembling various scriptures together yet you deny the scripture that plainly speaks about perfect love casting out all fear and try to make it mean something other than the direct intent. seams I have strayed from the topic though so maybe we can save it for another thread.

 

[Episkopos]

Really good post and I find it fascinating that you can deduce your conclusion by assembling various scriptures together yet you deny the scripture that plainly speaks about perfect love casting out all fear and try to make it mean something other than the direct intent.

I am attempting to show a scriptural logic here.

If on the one hand we maintain that perfect love casts out all fear....due to the fulness of Christ in us, then why wouldn't His grace cast out all sin?

As long as we are going on the biblical superlatives...We can do ALL things (commanded us by God) through Christ and His empowering.

Is the bible merely a philosophical bent? Are the miracles mentioned merely word-plays?


Or is the bible testifying to something that goes much farther than the experience of so many up till this time?

If this is the case then how do we transmit a message that potentially will cause not a few to react as being impossible or going too far? Is it easy to be a follower of Christ...or is it difficult (as Jesus said it would be)?

 

[Vashti]

[sup]

If a person is confident in Jesus' work on the cross there is no reason to fear. That person KNOWS where he/she will go when they die. It is called belief, faith, trust, and confidence in Jesus. Having said this I will add that when a person does not have these things there is always fear.

Most all "religious" people are seeking to produce good works in their lives to earn salvation. This is a never-ending battle that is filled only with fear, frustration and defeat. Until they accept the true gospel of Jesus Christ, they will never be able to rest in His finished work on the cross and consequently will never be able to experience the liberty of new life in Christ.

True liberty can come only in Christ. Only when we realize that we are SECURE in Him can we cease from our own works and rest in His work on the cross. This gives us a position of complete peace with God and there remains no fear.

[/sup]

Excuse me, but I personally do not believe in a circular phrases, even theoretically correct. To speak is easy, but everyone has to do every day choices and each day makes mistakes because of weak faith, fears, wrong understanding, etc. Paul circumcised Timothy, because he had a fear of the Jews . Peter, though a Jew, "lived like a Gentile and not like a Jew", but he forced the Gentiles to live like Jews, because he had a fear of the Jews.

Christians every day they go on a compromise for fear of different things - lose their job, expose yourself to the trouble, for fear of rejection, etc. And "in your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood" (r 12:4).

Do not tell you have anything that others do not have until you're approved.

"The rest in His finished work on the cross" does not absolve anyone of responsibility.

"Most all "religious" people are seeking to produce good works in their lives" - where did you see it? People today sleeps on benches, listening to the sea of rubbish from pulpits. In the churches flourishing ecumenism and sectarianism, but can not be seen any protests. Everyone sleeps, most important that was nice, where are good works which you speak?

However I know many people, "believers" who are depraved because of the false concept of grace. In vain to expect from them integrity, promise keeping, justice, etc. because they are not applicable it, because they are "under grace" ...

 

[Episkopos]

However I know many people, "believers" who are depraved because of the false concept of grace. In vain to expect from them integrity, promise keeping, justice, etc. because they are not applicable it, because they are "under grace"

The "emperor's new clothes" of righteousness! ;)

 

[jiggyfly]

I am attempting to show a scriptural logic here.

If on the one hand we maintain that perfect love casts out all fear....due to the fulness of Christ in us, then why wouldn't His grace cast out all sin?

As long as we are going on the biblical superlatives...We can do ALL things (commanded us by God) through Christ and His empowering.

Is the bible merely a philosophical bent? Are the miracles mentioned merely word-plays?


Or is the bible testifying to something that goes much farther than the experience of so many up till this time?

If this is the case then how do we transmit a message that potentially will cause not a few to react as being impossible or going too far? Is it easy to be a follower of Christ...or is it difficult (as Jesus said it would be)?

Well look to the scriptures, I personally cannot find anywhere the scriptures state that sin is cast out, but if you do please post it.

 

[Episkopos]

Well look to the scriptures, I personally cannot find anywhere the scriptures state that sin is cast out, but if you do please post it.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Since we are under the power of grace, we cannot sin. John says it many different ways...but the lesson is lost because we tend to look at our lack instead of God's provision. So we miss the import of the gospel and neglect to be empowered to do what few realize we CAN do in Christ.

Sin is overcome! Jesus speaks of the rewards of those who overcome (through His grace) in Revelation in His letter to the churches.

We must look at the reality not just words.

Sin is abolished, overcome, etc...We are set free from sin, we expose sin, sin no longer rules us or has dominion over us..etc

The lesson is obvious BUT very hard to grasp unless we become as children in the ways of the world. Jesus said we needed to be converted and be as little children in order to enter the kingdom. When we trust in the word instead of our previous experience then we are able to grasp the meaning of the word.

Going by our previous experience in this world is only good to be able to continue to grow in the ways of the world. To advance with God we must forsake this way and replace it by faith. We walk by faith and not by sight.

We must break with the world and the limitations of the flesh and move into the provision of God by faith.

We cannot measure the biblical standard against ourselves but rather we measure ourselves against the biblical standard.

Under the law we sin and are then forgiven...sin and then forgiven...etc...But under grace we are forgiven and then EMPOWERED to NOT sin.

 

[Episkopos]

Here is a very difficult concept to grasp...

If we still sin, then we are not yet under grace, but still stuck under the law.

 

[jiggyfly]

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Since we are under the power of grace, we cannot sin. John says it many different ways...but the lesson is lost because we tend to look at our lack instead of God's provision. So we miss the import of the gospel and neglect to be empowered to do what few realize we CAN do in Christ.

Sin is overcome! Jesus speaks of the rewards of those who overcome (through His grace) in Revelation in His letter to the churches.

We must look at the reality not just words.

Sin is abolished, overcome, etc...We are set free from sin, we expose sin, sin no longer rules us or has dominion over us..etc

The lesson is obvious BUT very hard to grasp unless we become as children in the ways of the world. Jesus said we needed to be converted and be as little children in order to enter the kingdom. When we trust in the word instead of our previous experience then we are able to grasp the meaning of the word.

Going by our previous experience in this world is only good to be able to continue to grow in the ways of the world. To advance with God we must forsake this way and replace it by faith. We walk by faith and not by sight.

We must break with the world and the limitations of the flesh and move into the provision of God by faith.

We cannot measure the biblical standard against ourselves but rather we measure ourselves against the biblical standard.

Under the law we sin and are then forgiven...sin and then forgiven...etc...But under grace we are forgiven and then EMPOWERED to NOT sin.

Sorry but I still don't see anything about sin being cast out.

 

[Episkopos]

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

His life in us sets us free from sin. If we live in His life we cannot sin. Sin is outside His life. It is death. The soul that sins...it shall die.

Sorry but I still don't see anything about sin being cast out.

All that is not of faith is sin..
Gal_4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

The old man is meant to be cast off so we can put on the new man. The old man is the sin factory of death.

Rom_13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Sin is meant to be cast out..off...whatever! :)

 

[elysian]

Here is a very difficult concept to grasp...

If we still sin, then we are not yet under grace, but still stuck under the law.

So you're saying nobody's under grace?