When Jesus says...

[Rach1370]

How do you explain these scriptures?

Philippians 2
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

Yeah, it's always good to finish the sentence, for context if nothing else....

for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
(Philippians 2:13 ESV)

As I've said in some of my above posts...just because we have salvation in Christ, doesn't mean we sit on our butts doing nothing, or feel free to live a sinful life. But even in the process of sanctification, we have a helper...the Holy Spirit working within us. But sanctification and that process are not really what we're talking about here; we're talking about whether salvation comes through Christ alone, or if we need to chip in.
As far as the context of this verse..."work out our own salvation...."

The Philippians have obeyed (as Christ’s obeyed in v.8) in the past and should continue to do so as they work out their salvation with fear and trembling. They cannot be content with past glories but need to demonstrate their faith day by day as they nurture their relationship with God. But while God’s justice is a cause for sober living (“fear and trembling”), it is not as though Paul wants the Philippians to be anxious that they can never be good enough to merit God’s favor. Rather, it is God’s love and enabling grace that will see them through: it is God who works in you. They can rejoice in God’s empowering presence even as they work hard at living responsible Christian lives. While v.12 may seem to suggest salvation by works, it is clear that Paul rejects any such teaching (see Phil 3:2-11). In 2:12 Paul means “salvation” in terms of progressively coming to experience all of the aspects and blessings of salvation. The Philippians’ continued obedience is an inherent part of “working out” their salvation in this sense. But as v.13 demonstrates, these works are the result of God’s work within his people.We see in v.13 that even the desire (“to will”) to do what is good comes from God; but he also works in the believer to generate actual choices of the good, so that the desires result in actions.

Hebrews 11
35 Women received their dead raised to life again. And others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection.

Wow, wildly out of context...have you read the whole passage??? It's talking about how all the "old testament" saints persevered in faith, not because they knew Jesus as their personal saviour, but because of their hope in God and His promises to eventually send one. They looked ahead and saw that God was faithful, and were faithful in return. This passage has nothing to do with Christ NOT being the way to salvation alone...in fact in it's way it supports my argument. God promised a saviour, a lamb of God, a suffering servant...He who would take away the sins of the world. These OT saints have salvation because they trusted in these promises.

Hebrews 10
38 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him."
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

Mmm, and if you go to the top of this passage, we see:

Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. (Hebrews 10:19-22 ESV)

The verses you gave, are a quote from Habakkuk2:3-4, and they encourage perseverance. But again, perseverance if for the believer who is walking in his salvation....sanctification. It's not discussing whether or not salvation comes from Jesus and Him alone. The verses just above it, which I just gave, they do, however, state it. Salvation comes from the blood of Christ, and we may be assured of this.

Christ is the author of salvation. He did not win anything. He made the way that you could enter into. His sacrifice allows you to come to God to receive God's Spirit.

Christ did not win anything??? :blink:
He made "a way"...so that I could do the rest of the work?? :blink:

Really. Just imagine yourself standing in front of Christ as He hung on that cross. When He said "it is finished", just imagine yourself pipping up and saying, "no, actually, but you gave it a nice start...ta. I'll take it from here".

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. (Romans 5:1-11 ESV)

 

[aspen]

I think your most recent post is clearly stated and the most helpful for me, Rach.

 

[Prentis]

Prentis, I know you mean well, but you cannot tell someone they need an attitude adjustment without it being personal. For that matter, issue's of doctrine are very personal, because it comes down to intimate beliefs.
But when it comes down to it, I really don't give a hoot if you are attacking me or not. The real issue here is the truth of the gospel. You smile and give very nice sounding self sacrificing answers, but you do not back up your 'doctrines' with scripture, even though many different scriptures have already been given to you that disprove your idea. You very tidily miss my points and never really give a straight answer. So, I'm gonna try and boil it down a bit, and see if we get somewhere.

You claim: that the cross was just the shove across the 'salvation' line, but if we want to truly achieve it, it's up to us to reach the finish line. Biblical? No. See verses above in regards to Jesus' all perfect, all finishing work on the cross.

No, that is not what I mean. Jesus, by his death, has acquired forgiveness for all those who are humble and righteous, but also the power for those who will go there to walk as he walked. And that is the church.

1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

You claim: that by teaching that salvation is won by Christ on the cross and Him alone, that we are leading people astray into 'dangerous' doctrines. Well, you are teaching them that they may...no, need to play a part in their own salvation. Which, I wonder, is the more dangerous?? I have said that the Bible teaches we play a role in our sanctification process, a role that is often difficult; but that is not salvation (which is a free gift...again, see verses above), sanctification is the day by day, hand in hand effort with the Spirit, to put sin to death and become more Christ like.

The free gift is grace.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Yes, with this comes forgiveness, and as we see in Titus, 'being saved'. But...

[sup]27[/sup]But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. (1 Cor. 9)

Paul could be a castaway? Yes. We do have a race to run... No matter which way we put it...

[sup]21[/sup]For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. (Rom. 11)

It might be that God would not spare us? Yes.

I'm actually pretty worried about you Prentis. If you truly think that Jesus didn't win salvation for us once and for all on the cross, as the Bible says, then I am not the one teaching a dangerous doctrine. If you think that by any particular striving on our part can earn or affect our salvation status now or in the long haul, you are dismissing and belittling the work of Christ. That is unbiblical and dangerous. The process of sanctification is long, difficult and requires a new heart of change within us every day. It's something we just couldn't do by ourselves...we require the Holy Spirit living within us helping us. And the Holy Spirit is something we receive once we have the free gift of salvation. But salvation...our justification in the eyes of God....that happens ONLY in Jesus. It was His life and death that purchased our righteousness in God's eyes. Any time you try and wiggle any act, deed or thought of ours into that process, you sully it again. The Bible is so very clear on this, and to disprove it, you're going to have to do more than present verses that 'seem' to say the opposite. You need to first disprove the ones that say it repeatedly and emphatically; and then prove that the 'opposing' verses actually do oppose it. Because my friend, no verses do oppose it. They all compliment, and if you think they don't, then it's only more proof that your own doctrine is horribly flawed.

Jesus paid the price, yes. But then is everyone saved? We know that it isn't so. Is it by giving lip service that we are saved? No.

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Does God grant forgiveness? Yes.

I'd say that "Christians" who say they are under grace, but then live and behave as they choose (obviously sinful), then they are not truly saved. Just as those who claim to be saved but behave just as the Pharisees did (trying to earn their salvation by behaving well and doing good works) are not saved.

Jesus said you would be able to tell a true Christian by their fruit. How does the person live? Is there evidence of a new heart?

I think too often people forget that good fruit can look different in different people lives. For Prentis, it may be that he is called by God to give up many worldly possessions, but for another Christian, God may be using their earthly wealth to support an important ministry. For Shep, going out and helping so many people is such a wonderful out pouring of her new heart, but something like that is just not possible for me with a chronic illness. I find that I'm called closer to home.
So often we rush to judge, but we do that based on our own needs, thoughts, convictions and abilities. We are all so different, we need to remember that probably the only thing many of us have in common is Jesus and His saving work in our lives.

I do agree with that. Physically, it doesn't all look the same... But to be a disciple we must count all as dung! Whether we keep it or not.

The rich can use unrighteous mammon (money) for a good end by filling the needs of the brethren, for example! But that is not the point. It is rather that we must indeed count everything we have as worthless compared to Christ...

Not doing this is not 'evil', it's just not something a disciple can afford.

 

[goodshepard55]

And you're totally right about that.

But that's not really the matter which Vashti has brought up. If we as Christians start trying to justify a pagan lifestyle just because we ourselves also cannot totally be free from sin in this flesh, then you'd have no righteous foundation to go to them and preach Christ Jesus.

LOL........Sugar...Jesus died for my sins...I have been free of them since I became His child...I am righteous because He gave righteousness to me freely... it is a gift from Him....Do I sin....have no idea....don't have time to sit and wonder about what I have done that might be sinful...I walk in total freedom in Christ Jesus from the sin and death of this world.....Mercy as a child of God's ...honestly why sit around worrying about sin? Did not Jesus die for that sin? Let Him off the cross in your life, give your life to Him freely to use you the way He wants....Once I let Him off the cross, and it is hard...The FREEDOM is powerful...You will feel the change within yourself...When you become aware that the Living God, Almighty Savior, the great I AM resides within you, as the Spirit of God...you kinda stop worrying about sin and start to live...cause you know the Spirit of the Most High God will give you a little check when you stray....When you realize that you are worthy to hold the Spirit of God within....You are righteous, deemed worthy, sinless...Do you think that the Spirit of the Most High God would inhabit a body full of sin? Do you think He would live in a sinful man? Ask Him yourself... He will answer....

 

[us2are1]

Yeah, it's always good to finish the sentence, for context if nothing else....

for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
(Philippians 2:13 ESV)

As I've said in some of my above posts...just because we have salvation in Christ, doesn't mean we sit on our butts doing nothing, or feel free to live a sinful life. But even in the process of sanctification, we have a helper...the Holy Spirit working within us. But sanctification and that process are not really what we're talking about here; we're talking about whether salvation comes through Christ alone, or if we need to chip in.
As far as the context of this verse..."work out our own salvation...."

It is a lot more simple than that. You have to have the Spirit of Christ or you are not His. Then If you have the Spirit of Christ then you will do the works of Christ just as all of the Apostles and the first Church did. The modern mouth service gospel that has Jesus entering into their sinful lives and stumbling around with them is not real. Man must repent, Believe the Gospel of Christ and ask Him For His Spirit and walk in It..

Romans8
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

John 14
12 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.








.

 

[Rach1370]

No, that is not what I mean. Jesus, by his death, has acquired forgiveness for all those who are humble and righteous, but also the power for those who will go there to walk as he walked. And that is the church.

1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Okay...I'm glad you don't mean that Jesus' sacrifice wasn't enough...it was worrying to believe you did!
And yes, I totally agree that God gives us the power to walk in Him. He gives us the Holy Spirit.
An author wrote this:
"The Father is intimately involved in our lives so that our circumstances train us in godliness, The Son has set us free from both the penalty and the power of sin so that we now live under the reign of grace; and the Spirit give us a new attitude to sin and a new power to change. The combined forces of the Trinity are at work in our lives to set us free and make us holy."

It sums up very nicely what I believe...what do you reckon?

The free gift is grace.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Yes, with this comes forgiveness, and as we see in Titus, 'being saved'. But...

[sup]27[/sup]But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. (1 Cor. 9)

Paul could be a castaway? Yes. We do have a race to run... No matter which way we put it...

[sup]21[/sup]For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. (Rom. 11)

It might be that God would not spare us? Yes.

Jesus paid the price, yes. But then is everyone saved? We know that it isn't so. Is it by giving lip service that we are saved? No.

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Does God grant forgiveness? Yes.

I truly don't believe the Bible teaches that anyone who is saved...truly regenerated, can lose their salvation. Yes, there are passages that warn us to be stead fast, and to run the race, and to hold true. But these are all passages of warning to believers....and I believe the very warnings are a way that God hold those who are His to Him. It's like with a child....we don't wait until they've been hit by a car and then say, "oh, by the way, if you don't look where you're going, you'll die". Likewise, God does not wait to say to people who have fallen away "persist of perish"...He says it to those who believe now...."love me, stay with me, the consequences are to horrible if you don't."
So yeah, let me try and put this together. Salvation comes from having faith in Christ. Believe and be saved. But the rest of our lives are spent working to become more Christ like...and they only way we have the power to do this, is through the Holy Spirit. So in a very great way, both salvation and sanctification are a gift from God. Yes, we need to play a big part in the sanctification process...after all, we can hardly not participate in our own lives!!!

Again this author (Tim Chester)says it all so well: "Conversion (justification) is all God's work, but we have a responsibility to respond with faith and repentance. It turns out that faith and repentance are also God's work in us, his gift to us. God opens blind eyes; God grants repentance (Mark 8:18-30; 2 Corinthians 4:4-6; 2 Tim 2:25). That's why conversion is entirely and act of God's grace. But, at God's initiative and with God's help, we're involved. And it's the same with sanctification. Sanctification is God's work. But we're not passive. We have to respond with faith and repentance. Again it turns out that faith and repentance are God's work in us."

I know many people say that this 'doctrine' is a 'take, take, take' from God doctrine, that we sit back and take and demand from God, but truly it's not like that at all. Consider for a moment, the bible as a whole. What do we see happening again and again and again?? God gives. The whole Bible is a testament of what God does for us. How can we say that God is not a giver, that we need to give to Him??? Apart from our faith, trust and love, what on earth can we expect to give to Him that won't be filthy rags?? And our very love, trust and faith are a gift from Him!!!

I do agree with that. Physically, it doesn't all look the same... But to be a disciple we must count all as dung! Whether we keep it or not.

The rich can use unrighteous mammon (money) for a good end by filling the needs of the brethren, for example! But that is not the point. It is rather that we must indeed count everything we have as worthless compared to Christ...

Not doing this is not 'evil', it's just not something a disciple can afford.

I agree with this too. Christ must be more important to us than anything...even our very lives. My relationship with Jesus is the most important, precious thing in my life. I have a husband and two children whom I love dearly, but I would survive without them should God call them away. I would not survive without Jesus...I wouldn't even want to.
So yes, if we cannot cast anything and everything away if that's what we feel God is calling us to, then we have serious idolatry issues and need to repent.

 

[Rach1370]

It is a lot more simple than that. You have to have the Spirit of Christ or you are not His. Then If you have the Spirit of Christ then you will do the works of Christ just as all of the Apostles and the first Church did. The modern mouth service gospel that has Jesus entering into their sinful lives and stumbling around with them is not real. Man must repent, Believe the Gospel of Christ and ask Him For His Spirit and walk in It..

Romans8
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

John 14
12 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

Mmmm, I don't know that I have ever espoused or encouraged a 'modern mouth service gospel'. That's just as wrong as thinking we can earn it ourselves.
Your last sentence...."Man must repent, Believe the Gospel of Christ and ask Him For His Spirit and walk in It.."

Amen. I believe my point all along has been this: we receive salvation from Christ when we repent and believe, and then we walk in our faith with the Holy Spirit empowering us to do so.

 

[Vashti]

I truly don't believe the Bible teaches that anyone who is saved...truly regenerated, can lose their salvation.Yes, there are passages that warn us ...

The Bible not warn about things that are impossible, and put everything on God is just a step towards the loss of salvation, no matter whether anyone believes it or not.

The attitude of "God himself do everything" leads to the degeneration of the conscience and Christianity, and whoever does not believe the loss of salvation, it probably already lost.

The Bible encourages to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"; and further context not cancels the first part of sentence.

Word of God encourages in many places to stand, to work, to serve, to vigils, to prayer, and it can quote a really plenty of fragments, warn against carelessness, and there is no any fragment of the incentive to rest on its laurels, none fragment says "you need not try, you do not have anything to do", etc. - such theology is based on selected passages and leads to a fall.

 

[Vashti]

Question - when God makes everything himself, why so many people stray on a wide way, why the Lord said "I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able " ( Luk 13:24 ) ? if God desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth ( 1Ti 2:4 ) why not do according to what he wants ...

 

[Rach1370]

The Bible not warn about things that are impossible, and put everything on God is just a step towards the loss of salvation, no matter whether anyone believes it or not.

"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.” (John 10:28-30 ESV)

The attitude of "God himself do everything" leads to the degeneration of the conscience and Christianity, and whoever does not believe the loss of salvation, it probably already lost.

So, your opinion is that other people opinions are foolish? So, should I take your opinion, or take scriptures?

yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. (Galatians 2:16 ESV)

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.(Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV)

The Bible encourages to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"; and further context not cancels the first part of sentence.

Context is everything for biblical exegesis! If it were not for context, you could make the Bible say anything you wanted it to! You could make it say that it is a good and godly thing to cook your food over dung! If you don't take the above verse in context of where and why it was written, you miss the point of the writer!

Word of God encourages in many places to stand, to work, to serve, to vigils, to prayer, and it can quote a really plenty of fragments, warn against carelessness, and there is no any fragment of the incentive to rest on its laurels, none fragment says "you need not try, you do not have anything to do", etc. - such theology is based on selected passages and leads to a fall.

I have never said we can sit on our butts and do nothing! Man, do you guys even read my posts????

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10 ESV)

Yes, we have work to do! Yes, life as a disciple is hard. But, we do not work alone, and we do not work for our own sakes. The Spirit empowers us to good works for other people and for the glory of God.

Question - when God makes everything himself, why so many people stray on a wide way, why the Lord said "I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able " ( Luk 13:24 ) ? if God desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth ( 1Ti 2:4 ) why not do according to what he wants ...

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
(Ephesians 1:3-14 ESV)

Why are not all people saved? Because that's how God wills it. And as He's God, He pretty much gets to do what He wants and it's still perfect and wonderful.

 

[aspen]

I have never said we can sit on our butts and do nothing! Man, do you guys even read my posts????

Maddening, isn't it? I feel your pain! You are making sense, Rach and I appreciate what you are saying. Although now I am going to have to knock off cooking with dung.....

 

[Rach1370]

Maddening, isn't it? I feel your pain! You are making sense, Rach and I appreciate what you are saying. Although now I am going to have to knock off cooking with dung.....

Teehee! Yeah, it was just the craziest thing I could think of at that moment within the bible...there's plenty more I suspect, but that one was a pretty weird request from God!

All I've been trying to say is that despite our need to obey God and live as He wants us to, it's all God. God calls us, saves us, renews us and works in us so that we may live for Him and obey Him. We aren't passive, by any means, but it's all His power and grace, none of ours.

God saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, (2 Timothy 1:9 ESV)

 

[veteran]

Prentis, I know you mean well, but you cannot tell someone they need an attitude adjustment without it being personal. For that matter, issue's of doctrine are very personal, because it comes down to intimate beliefs. But when it comes down to it, I really don't give a hoot if you are attacking me or not. The real issue here is the truth of the gospel. You smile and give very nice sounding self sacrificing answers, but you do not back up your 'doctrines' with scripture, even though many different scriptures have already been given to you that disprove your idea. You very tidily miss my points and never really give a straight answer. So, I'm gonna try and boil it down a bit, and see if we get somewhere. You claim: that the cross was just the shove across the 'salvation' line, but if we want to truly achieve it, it's up to us to reach the finish line. Biblical? No. See verses above in regards to Jesus' all perfect, all finishing work on the cross. You claim: that by teaching that salvation is won by Christ on the cross and Him alone, that we are leading people astray into 'dangerous' doctrines. Well, you are teaching them that they may...no, need to play a part in their own salvation. Which, I wonder, is the more dangerous?? I have said that the Bible teaches we play a role in our sanctification process, a role that is often difficult; but that is not salvation (which is a free gift...again, see verses above), sanctification is the day by day, hand in hand effort with the Spirit, to put sin to death and become more Christ like. I'm actually pretty worried about you Prentis. If you truly think that Jesus didn't win salvation for us once and for all on the cross, as the Bible says, then I am not the one teaching a dangerous doctrine. If you think that by any particular striving on our part can earn or affect our salvation status now or in the long haul, you are dismissing and belittling the work of Christ. That is unbiblical and dangerous. The process of sanctification is long, difficult and requires a new heart of change within us every day. It's something we just couldn't do by ourselves...we require the Holy Spirit living within us helping us. And the Holy Spirit is something we receive once we have the free gift of salvation. But salvation...our justification in the eyes of God....that happens ONLY in Jesus. It was His life and death that purchased our righteousness in God's eyes. Any time you try and wiggle any act, deed or thought of ours into that process, you sully it again. The Bible is so very clear on this, and to disprove it, you're going to have to do more than present verses that 'seem' to say the opposite. You need to first disprove the ones that say it repeatedly and emphatically; and then prove that the 'opposing' verses actually do oppose it. Because my friend, no verses do oppose it. They all compliment, and if you think they don't, then it's only more proof that your own doctrine is horribly flawed. I'd say that "Christians" who say they are under grace, but then live and behave as they choose (obviously sinful), then they are not truly saved. Just as those who claim to be saved but behave just as the Pharisees did (trying to earn their salvation by behaving well and doing good works) are not saved. Jesus said you would be able to tell a true Christian by their fruit. How does the person live? Is there evidence of a new heart? I think too often people forget that good fruit can look different in different people lives. For Prentis, it may be that he is called by God to give up many worldly possessions, but for another Christian, God may be using their earthly wealth to support an important ministry. For Shep, going out and helping so many people is such a wonderful out pouring of her new heart, but something like that is just not possible for me with a chronic illness. I find that I'm called closer to home. So often we rush to judge, but we do that based on our own needs, thoughts, convictions and abilities. We are all so different, we need to remember that probably the only thing many of us have in common is Jesus and His saving work in our lives.

Wish I could have found those words at the time.

 

[jiggyfly]

LOL........Sugar...Jesus died for my sins...I have been free of them since I became His child...I am righteous because He gave righteousness to me freely... it is a gift from Him....Do I sin....have no idea....don't have time to sit and wonder about what I have done that might be sinful...I walk in total freedom in Christ Jesus from the sin and death of this world.....Mercy as a child of God's ...honestly why sit around worrying about sin? Did not Jesus die for that sin? Let Him off the cross in your life, give your life to Him freely to use you the way He wants....Once I let Him off the cross, and it is hard...The FREEDOM is powerful...You will feel the change within yourself...When you become aware that the Living God, Almighty Savior, the great I AM resides within you, as the Spirit of God...you kinda stop worrying about sin and start to live...cause you know the Spirit of the Most High God will give you a little check when you stray....When you realize that you are worthy to hold the Spirit of God within....You are righteous, deemed worthy, sinless...Do you think that the Spirit of the Most High God would inhabit a body full of sin? Do you think He would live in a sinful man? Ask Him yourself... He will answer....

Good post Shep, lot's of passion too.
Paul said pretty much the same thing as you here in his letter to the believers at Colossi.

19 For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ,20 and through him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of Christ’s blood on the cross.
21 This includes you who were once far away from God. You were his enemies, separated from him by your evil thoughts and actions.22 Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body. As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.23 But you must continue to believe this truth and stand firmly in it. Don’t drift away from the assurance you received when you heard the Good News. The Good News has been preached all over the world, and I, Paul, have been appointed as God’s servant to proclaim it.
Col 1:19-23 (NLT)



Paul went on to say,

6 And now, just as you accepted Christ Jesus as your Lord, you must continue to follow him.7 Let your roots grow down into him, and let your lives be built on him. Then your faith will grow strong in the truth you were taught, and you will overflow with thankfulness.8 Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ.9 For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. 10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.11 When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision—the cutting away of your sinful nature. 12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead.13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins.14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross.15 In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross.​

16 So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths.17 For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality.18 Don’t let anyone condemn you by insisting on pious self-denial or the worship of angels, saying they have had visions about these things. Their sinful minds have made them proud,19 and they are not connected to Christ, the head of the body. For he holds the whole body together with its joints and ligaments, and it grows as God nourishes it.20 You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the spiritual powers of this world. So why do you keep on following the rules of the world, such as,21 “Don’t handle! Don’t taste! Don’t touch!”?22 Such rules are mere human teachings about things that deteriorate as we use them.23 These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, pious self-denial, and severe bodily discipline. But they provide no help in conquering a person’s evil desires.​

Col 2:6-23 (NLT)

When we start saying that we must do good works and focus on weather we have any sin, in order to maintain our position with Father, we are no longer trusting in Christ work at the cross.

 

[Vashti]

"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.” (John 10:28-30 ESV)

Rom 11:20 esv "(20) That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear."

1Co 9:27 esv "(27) But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."

Heb 6:4-6 esv "(4) For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, (5) and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, (6) and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt."

Heb 10:29 bw "o ileż sroższej kary, sądzicie, godzien będzie ten, kto Syna Bożego podeptał i zbezcześcił krew przymierza, przez którą został uświęcony, i znieważył Ducha łaski!"

Heb 10:29 esv "(29) How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?"

1Ti 1:19 esv "(19) holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith,"

1Ti 6:20-21 esv "(20) O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you. Avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called "knowledge," (21) for by professing it some have swerved from the faith. Grace be with you."

2Ti 2:12 esv "(12) if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;"

2Pe 2:20 esv "(20) For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first."

The Bible not warn about things that are impossible, and put everything on God is just a step towards the loss of salvation, no matter whether anyone believes it or not.
See the entire Scripture, if you like a context, rather than on specific pieces that fit you to your assumptions.

The Bible encourages to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"; and further context not cancels the first part of sentence.

Context is everything for biblical exegesis! If it were not for context, you could make the Bible say anything you wanted it to! You could make it say that it is a good and godly thing to cook your food over dung! If you don't take the above verse in context of where and why it was written, you miss the point of the writer!

I said that the context does not annul the first part of the sentence, so I do not know why you write me odes about the validity of the context. I shall not invalidate the context, but context does not invalidate the first part of the sentence, as it is written with fear and trembling work out salvation, so we have to do.

I have never said we can sit on our butts and do nothing! Man, do you guys even read my posts????

If you think that we have to do - so act and so encourages others and not hit in the chest, that God himself will do everything ...

Why are not all people saved? Because that's how God wills it. And as He's God, He pretty much gets to do what He wants and it's still perfect and wonderful.

You did not answer the question. You quote lines that you like, but they do not explain your theology. If people are marionettes in the hands of God, who alone makes them all, why do not we all saved.

Act 17:30 esv "(30) The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,"

 

[goodshepard55]

Thanks jiggyfly...I really use to worry if I was good enough, if I was doing enough, if the sins I was committing were just to bad for Him to love me, I worried if anyone cared about me, for I was flawed, sinful, hurtful to others, condemned others for not believing the same as I did...then He brought me to Australia, away from all I hold dear, away from the hell and damnation preaching I was getting at home...away from the lies of being so sinful, that useless I just curled up and died, that He would never love me enough to let me in heaven...away from the feelings of shame over the sexual abuse as a child, then having the Pastor tell us in church that if you had ever had sex outside of marriage you were already on the doorstep of hell...

One day the Lord brought a woman across my path that pretty much had the same thing happen to her...she was angry, withdrawn, had so many brick built in front of her...no one could be her friend...the same as me...the Lord told me that day.."That is you sitting there in that chair, look at her, she is you."..of course I denied that...strongly..I told Him I was friendly, loving, caring..."Yes, you are all those things, to others but not to yourself"..He clearly said to me...I told Him that I was only protecting myself from the hurt others could inflict on me, I knew how people could hurt, been there, done that..and was working hard for Him to love me, to show Him I was good enough to get into Heaven...He kinda said very clearly.."You know I died for them too,let me off that cross, for I died for their sins as much as your sins. You are as white as snow"...That broke me right then and there...I cried for all the years I believed the lies of well meaning Pastors trying to frighten the young people in church to save themselves for marriage..I cried for the pain I had caused others in my self righteous,using twisted scriptures to inflict pain on others, I cried for all the times I refused to let people close enough to me to see me as I really was..I cried for all the control I had used to keep my Lord at arms length, and for not letting Him off my cross...I love people, but I use to cause them pain or use scriptures to condemn them to keep them away from me...for in my eyes I was a sinful, dirty person not deserving of any love...But that day..He showed me His love, He showed me that when the Father looks at us all He sees is His Son, for we are clothed in His majesty, His purity, His holiness...We are pure as snow...He changed me that day, He mended the heart of a child, He made me stronger, and opened my eyes to see His truth...For in Him, I am everything He is, in Him I am sinless, in Him I carry all the power and authority He carried, in Him I can do all things..so freedom is the most precious gift of all, for in Him I am free to be me...He carries me, He loves me, He is my righteousness..

Love you jiggyfly...be blessed, for in Him you are everything He is...

 

[mjrhealth]

Luke 14
[sup]27[/sup] And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.

What do you think?

Getting back on topic, yes it does, there are those who will be saved though faith, there will be those who are saved in the tribulation , but there are those called to higher things, for them this line is there life, What price are you willing to pay to be a disciple, loss of home, family, friends, cast out of church for being different, loss of job,much time on ones knees crying out to Jesus for you know He is the only way. So yes this line is relevant more so then many are aware.

In His Love

 

[Rach1370]

LOL........Sugar...Jesus died for my sins...I have been free of them since I became His child...I am righteous because He gave righteousness to me freely... it is a gift from Him....Do I sin....have no idea....don't have time to sit and wonder about what I have done that might be sinful...I walk in total freedom in Christ Jesus from the sin and death of this world.....Mercy as a child of God's ...honestly why sit around worrying about sin? Did not Jesus die for that sin? Let Him off the cross in your life, give your life to Him freely to use you the way He wants....Once I let Him off the cross, and it is hard...The FREEDOM is powerful...You will feel the change within yourself...When you become aware that the Living God, Almighty Savior, the great I AM resides within you, as the Spirit of God...you kinda stop worrying about sin and start to live...cause you know the Spirit of the Most High God will give you a little check when you stray....When you realize that you are worthy to hold the Spirit of God within....You are righteous, deemed worthy, sinless...Do you think that the Spirit of the Most High God would inhabit a body full of sin? Do you think He would live in a sinful man? Ask Him yourself... He will answer....

Hey Shep...can I just ask a question? If you never stop to think about your sin, how do you repent of any of it?? Repenting of our sins and then moving away from them is the way we grow closer to and more like Christ.
I would have to say, yes, Jesus did die for my sins, and that therefore makes them bad enough to take note of them, and the great price they cost, and repent fully of them, every day.

 

[jiggyfly]

Thanks jiggyfly...I really use to worry if I was good enough, if I was doing enough, if the sins I was committing were just to bad for Him to love me, I worried if anyone cared about me, for I was flawed, sinful, hurtful to others, condemned others for not believing the same as I did...then He brought me to Australia, away from all I hold dear, away from the hell and damnation preaching I was getting at home...away from the lies of being so sinful, that useless I just curled up and died, that He would never love me enough to let me in heaven...away from the feelings of shame over the sexual abuse as a child, then having the Pastor tell us in church that if you had ever had sex outside of marriage you were already on the doorstep of hell...

One day the Lord brought a woman across my path that pretty much had the same thing happen to her...she was angry, withdrawn, had so many brick built in front of her...no one could be her friend...the same as me...the Lord told me that day.."That is you sitting there in that chair, look at her, she is you."..of course I denied that...strongly..I told Him I was friendly, loving, caring..."Yes, you are all those things, to others but not to yourself"..He clearly said to me...I told Him that I was only protecting myself from the hurt others could inflict on me, I knew how people could hurt, been there, done that..and was working hard for Him to love me, to show Him I was good enough to get into Heaven...He kinda said very clearly.."You know I died for them too,let me off that cross, for I died for their sins as much as your sins. You are as white as snow"...That broke me right then and there...I cried for all the years I believed the lies of well meaning Pastors trying to frighten the young people in church to save themselves for marriage..I cried for the pain I had caused others in my self righteous,using twisted scriptures to inflict pain on others, I cried for all the times I refused to let people close enough to me to see me as I really was..I cried for all the control I had used to keep my Lord at arms length, and for not letting Him off my cross...I love people, but I use to cause them pain or use scriptures to condemn them to keep them away from me...for in my eyes I was a sinful, dirty person not deserving of any love...But that day..He showed me His love, He showed me that when the Father looks at us all He sees is His Son, for we are clothed in His majesty, His purity, His holiness...We are pure as snow...He changed me that day, He mended the heart of a child, He made me stronger, and opened my eyes to see His truth...For in Him, I am everything He is, in Him I am sinless, in Him I carry all the power and authority He carried, in Him I can do all things..so freedom is the most precious gift of all, for in Him I am free to be me...He carries me, He loves me, He is my righteousness..

Love you jiggyfly...be blessed, for in Him you are everything He is...

Yes indeed Shep, just like Paul said in Romans 8:31-39 , I am also convinced that nothing can separate me from His love, not hell,not sin, not even I can separate myself from His love.
I tried for several years after my mother died from cancer but God's love is irresistible.

God is at peace with everything in heaven and earth because of Christ's work at the cross. But it is we who are not at peace with Him when we wrestle this truth by trying to justify ourselves with religious good works. Self wants to be a part of this redemption. But God has made no place for self in His kingdom, self has been denied any rights by God and we must stop wrestling with Him on this stop allowing self to control us and just submit to HolySpirit. Self is not dead but we must become dead to self in the same manner as we have become dead to the Law.

Hey Shep...can I just ask a question? If you never stop to think about your sin, how do you repent of any of it?? Repenting of our sins and then moving away from them is the way we grow closer to and more like Christ.
I would have to say, yes, Jesus did die for my sins, and that therefore makes them bad enough to take note of them, and the great price they cost, and repent fully of them, every day.

Got a question for you Rach. What does "repent" mean to you? Can you show the context of scripture where you are getting "repent" from? Thanks.

 

[Rach1370]

First, forgive me but I'm having trouble understanding some of your questions...is English perhaps not your first language?? Anyway, if I don't answer fully or properly, it isn't because I'm dodging the issue...okay??

Rom 11:20 esv "(20) That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear."

Yes, but faith itself is a gift from God. We receive the very thing we need to hold to God, from God.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV)

When we see that every part of salvation comes from God, we cannot boast or become proud...how can we, it's nothing that we've done.
I know the above Romans verse also touches on election and assurance of salvation, but as this topic is specifically whether or not salvation is solely from God, I won't discuss it just here.

1Co 9:27 esv "(27) But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."

This passage touches on how a Christian should live...the sanctification process, which we are very much involved in. But I do not see it proving that salvation comes through God work and our own as well.
As Christians we strive each day, through the power of the Holy Spirit to resist sin and to put active sin to death. This means we are not perfect. The life of a Christian will see us stumble; but the test of true salvation is whether one stays down and turns his face away from the Lord, or if they repent of it, and ask the Holy Spirit to help them back up. Paul here is rightly saying that he strives towards godliness, that he doesn't wish to become a hypocrite in his preaching...but he also says:

For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. (Romans 7:18-20 ESV)

Paul knows he is not perfect. And perfection is the only thing capable of 'earning' salvation. Salvation comes from the Lord only, and the Holy Spirit gives us the new desire to do what is good. Paul always got back up after he stumbled, proving that his regeneration and new heart was true.

Heb 6:4-6 esv "(4) For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, (5) and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, (6) and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt."

Okay...it seems you are wanting to discuss assurance of salvation....In regards to this passge, some see it, mistakenly, as evidence that those who 'have' salvation need to work to keep it.
Most argue, however, that although the above mentioned people may have participated fully in the Christian covenantal community (where they experienced enlightened instruction in the Word of God, where they saw public repentance occur, and where the Holy Spirit was at work in powerful ways), when such people do “fall away” it is clear that they are not true Christians because they have not made a true, saving response to the gospel, resulting in genuine faith, love, and perseverance. Significantly, they are like land that received much rain but bore no good fruit, only “thorns and thistles” (v. 8). They may have participated outwardly in the Christian community and they even may have shared in the blessings of Christian fellowship; but, like the seed that fell on rocky ground in the parable of the sower, “they have no root” (Mark 4:17) and they “fall away” when faced with persecution. Another view is that the warnings are addressed to true believers, and though they will never completely fall away, the warnings are still the means that God uses to challenge them to persevere in their faith and so to preserve those whom the Lord has chosen.
But either way, we must consider the many passages that tell us we cannot loose our salvation...

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
(John 10:27-29 ESV)

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
(John 6:39-40 ESV)

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6 ESV)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:3-5 ESV)

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? (Romans 8:35 ESV)

For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39 ESV)

Heb 10:29 esv "(29) How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?"

The verses above this one give us more insight to what the author of Hebrews is talking about:

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. (Hebrews 10:26-27 ESV)

The author here refers especially to people within the Christian community, who have thus heard the truth. The fact that they “go on sinning deliberately even after receiving knowledge of the truth” indicates that the people in view are not (and never were) genuine believers; that is, these are people who have never genuinely embraced the gospel in a way that has resulted in a life of faith, obedience, and the bearing of fruit.

Then in verse 29 he talks about such rejection of the knowledge of the truth (10:26) through willful disobedience is tantamount to trampling upon God’s Son, reckoning his blood to be defiled, and insulting the Spirit who has offered such grace; the one who does this deserves eternal judgment (v. 27). Some have argued that the statement by which he was sanctified (Gk. hagiazō, “set apart,” “sanctify”) indicates that the person in view here was a true believer. Given the immediate context, it seems most likely that “he was sanctified” should be understood in the sense of someone who had been “set apart” or identified as an active participant in the Christian community of believers, but who has subsequently committed apostasy by renouncing his identification with other believers, by denying the “knowledge of the truth” that he had heard, and by repudiating the work and the person of Christ himself. Such a person’s apostasy is thus evidence that his identification with the Christian community was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.

1Ti 1:19 esv "(19) holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith,"

This represents a singular pronoun in Greek and refers to a good conscience. The false teachers, rejecting their consciences, plowed ahead in their sin. shipwreck of their faith. This most likely refers to the false teachers who claimed to be believers but had fallen away from the faith they initially professed, thereby showing they were never truly converted (They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.(1 John 2:19 ESV))

2Pe 2:20 esv "(20) For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first."

It would have been better for these false teachers never to have escaped the world in the first place, than to follow in the path of the knowledge of … Christ only to abandon that path and return to a life of sin and darkness. One reason it is better not to have known about the holy commandment is that those who turn away after falsely confessing the Christian faith will not be inclined to consider Christ again. Another reason is that their knowledge and experience of the Christian life makes them more accountable before God

The Bible not warn about things that are impossible, and put everything on God is just a step towards the loss of salvation, no matter whether anyone believes it or not.
See the entire Scripture, if you like a context, rather than on specific pieces that fit you to your assumptions.

If we cannot "put everything on God", then what on earth has the bible been about? And I don't mean this in a way that allows us to deny responsibility for our own sins and our choices.
In the beginning God...created and gave. He gave Noah a way out of destruction. He gave the people of Israel freedom from Egypt, and He gave them food and water in the desert. He gave and gave through out the OT, until finally He gave His Son. He gives the gift of grace and the gift of the Holy Spirit. It's not a case of us demanding all from God, it's a case of God offering all...and to reject it is in fact a sin.
Assumptions they are not...reference...the Bible.

I said that the context does not annul the first part of the sentence, so I do not know why you write me odes about the validity of the context. I shall not invalidate the context, but context does not invalidate the first part of the sentence, as it is written with fear and trembling work out salvation, so we have to do.

Yes, but when other scriptures outright tell us that salvation is ONLY a gift from God, that anything we ourselves offer up to Him are filthy rags and dog puke, can you really hold to your interpetation of this verse? Can you really believe that after stating so strongly that our works do nothing to help in our own salvation, the Bible will then turn around and say that, oh wait, you do need to have a hand in your salvation after all. If the Bible condradicts itself so radically, then we cannot believe that it is all truth. I do believe it to be truth, I believe it to be God's word. So when He tells me that salvation is a free gift from Him, that my works and righteousness are meaningless, that only Jesus' works, life and righteousness are meaninful and that by dying in my place He has given me His worthiness, I believe Him, and am thankful.

If you think that we have to do - so act and so encourages others and not hit in the chest, that God himself will do everything ...

God Himself tells us that He will do everything...because that's the only way things will get done perfectly. He still calls us to obey, to repent and to walk with the Spirit in becoming more Christ like...but the Bible clearly tells us that Salvation, faith, grace...all that...it comes from Him.

You did not answer the question. You quote lines that you like, but they do not explain your theology. If people are marionettes in the hands of God, who alone makes them all, why do not we all saved.

Act 17:30 esv "(30) The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,"

Those "lines" are God's own words...I kinda like them.
The 'times of ignorance' is actually refering to the old covenant...you know, the one based on works....that didn't turn out so well for them did it?
The one huge mistake everyone makes when they want to know why God choses some and not others, is to assume that God is or should be, under human rules. God is not human. He is not flawed, and He has no need to bow to our "it's not fair" whinning. He does everything for His glory, as is His right...he is perfect, holy, good, just. He is the only one who is deserving of glory. So if He chooses some and not others, we can assume it's done for His glory, and praise it.
I don't really need to answer your or any one elses questions about it...it's not up to me to prove how God works. God has given us as much information that we need...it's called the Bible, and it's a brillant book...especially if we read it how we supposed to...with God's glory in mind.