When Jesus says...

[jiggyfly]

OK Prentise, thanks for attempting to give an answer.
One thing I am learning concerning God and His kingdom is that there are many spiritual truths and realities that we, while in our fleshly bodies still wrestle or struggle with accepting and understanding.
One example is the redemptive sacrifice for mankind. When was Christ crucified? The scriptures tell us that He (the Lamb) was slain from the foundation of the world. Yet the manifestation of this event was under 2 thousand years ago.

The same is true concerning the truths and realities concerning God's work in and with us. Now the reason I used the words truths and realities are because there is a difference. The truths that the scriptures speak of concerning who we are in Christ are not untrue even though we may not see the manifestation of them, but rather they become realities to us as Father reveals them to us in various ways and we cease to struggle and accept them on a spiritual plane first, then a manifestation in the natural sometime later.

No, the wisdom we speak of is the mystery of God —his plan that was previously hidden, even though he made it for our ultimate glory before the world began
1 Cor 2:7 (NLT)


May you experience the love of Christ, though it is too great to understand fully. Then you will be made complete with all the fullness of life and power that comes from God.
20 Now all glory to God, who is able, through his mighty power at work within us, to accomplish infinitely more than we might ask or think.21 Glory to him in the church and in Christ Jesus through all generations forever and ever! Amen.
Eph 3:19-21 (NLT)

 

[Prentis]

But your last paragraph is... about rules, which are your own I must say. There is no such command in Scripture for those in Christ Jesus to live a literal "communal life", for that's the idea of asceticism. And along with the idea of asceticism is the idea of one giving up all they materially possess, which is specifically an idea from Socialism also. I thought we'd already been over that 'commune' concept applied literally when it is not Scriptural?


2 Cor 8:1-15
1 Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia;
2 How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.
3 For to their power, I bear record, yea, and beyond their power they were willing of themselves;
4 Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.
5 And this they did, not as we hoped, but first gave their own selves to the Lord, and unto us by the will of God.
6 Insomuch that we desired Titus, that as he had begun, so he would also finish in you the same grace also.
7 Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.

Paul speaking to the church at Corinth, commends the churches at Macedonia for their good example of alms giving to needy brethren. As Titus was sent to gather the gifts for distribution, Paul admonishes those at Corinth to follow that example of the brethren in Macedonia.


8 I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.

Paul then makes it clear he is not speaking by a commandment, but out of love for the brethren.


9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that ye through His poverty might be rich.
10 And herein I give my advice: for this is expedient for you, who have begun before, not only to do, but also to be forward a year ago.
11 Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have.

Is Apostle Paul saying for the brethren to literally give up all possessions like our Lord Jesus did? No. He said to perform this grace "out of that which ye have."



12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
13 For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:

Not only does Paul not... command the brethren to literally give up all possessions, he makes it clearly understood that he means for brethren that have to not be "burdened" so that "other men be eased"!

That very idea is the anti-thesis of Socialism. We could easily get into a debate of how... the lives of many on welfare today are eased while others are burdened in holding two or three jobs just to make ends meet. (Welfare is for those who need it because of a disability or not able to work, not for those who can work to live in ease.)



14 But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:
15 As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack.
(KJV)

Paul is specific about their giving out of their "abundance", not the giving of all their possessions away.

This matter of alms is between the Christian believer and Jesus Christ as to how much one gives. It is not about someone who complains of how rich another is, which one can hear Socialists doing today.

It is not asceticism in that we are not here to have as little possessions as possible... It is not socialism because everyone is NOT equal. Rather everyone fits as God decides... The focus is not carnal, but spiritual... But for the sake of the spiritual, we do whatever is necessary in the physical.

There is a difference between the coming together of the saints to be one and a carnal coming together... Of course every single coming together of people we see in the world is one according to culture, or politics, or preferences... but the coming together in the church is according to the Spirit.

The brothers coming together has nothing to do with possessions or being equal, but everything to do with being united around the Lord. To do so, sometimes it requires that a man leave things behind. It is about leaving EVERYTHING for the sake of being one with the brothers... They will know you by your . . . love for one another.

But this concept is thrown out the window nowadays for the sake of getting to live our own lives, our own way. God makes it so that we can't have it both ways. We can't keep our comfortable life designed for our own lusts, our old life, AND be a part of the body where Christ makes his dwelling, with the Father, and the Holy Spirit. Thus, just like the disciples, we need to leave behind our old life.

It might look different on the outside from one person to another, but on the inside the price is the same, as we have to let go of our own desires and own life and put it before the Lord, with the brethren... For the Lord to use, and the benefit of the brethren.

If we are the Lord's, our lives are not our own... We cannot serve two masters, on the one hand our lusts, on the other the Lord. If we attempt to do it, we will love the flesh, and despise the Lord, because it is pleasing to our carnality, whereas serving the Lord DOESN'T!

The conclusion then is that if we wish to serve the Lord, we must be joined to the brethren, leaving everything we must leave to do so... Otherwise, we cannot be his disciples!

 

[veteran]

It is not asceticism in that we are not here to have as little possessions as possible... It is not socialism because everyone is NOT equal. Rather everyone fits as God decides... The focus is not carnal, but spiritual... But for the sake of the spiritual, we do whatever is necessary in the physical.

No Scripture foundation for that either. Nowhere that I know of is it written that all believers are called to sell everything they own to follow Christ. Nor was that for all in His Church at the time of Paul either, which that 2 Cor.8 Scripture proves.

The brothers coming together has nothing to do with possessions or being equal, but everything to do with being united around the Lord. To do so, sometimes it requires that a man leave things behind. It is about leaving EVERYTHING for the sake of being one with the brothers... They will know you by your . . . love for one another.

Leave everything? What about one's children and spouse? Don't you see a difference with the time of Christ's first coming with those He told to follow Him literally then? Paul preached that a man that doesn't take care of his family has denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel (1 Tim.5:8). But that's exactly what Socialism preaches, the breaking up of the family unit in order to give all to it. Strange that is, since our Lord Jesus did not command us to forsake home and family.

But this concept is thrown out the window nowadays for the sake of getting to live our own lives, our own way. God makes it so that we can't have it both ways. We can't keep our comfortable life designed for our own lusts, our old life, AND be a part of the body where Christ makes his dwelling, with the Father, and the Holy Spirit. Thus, just like the disciples, we need to leave behind our old life.

I think you need to come to reality and quit trying to assign ideas to God that are really your own, or of men that you've been listening to. So all Christians when they believe on Christ Jesus, should just sell everything or give it away, and live in poverty, breaking up their home and family, because that's exactly what it would do. And according to your descriptions, that means to leave the principles of Capitalism, earthly possessions, etc. Well, THAT is... the theories of Communist-Socialism, not God's Word. You might want to study what Paul taught that he preferred those who were able, to not marry, so they wouldn't have that added responsibility; but he didn't command it; it's only for those who are called in that (1 Cor.7).

If we are the Lord's, our lives are not our own... We cannot serve two masters, on the one hand our lusts, on the other the Lord. If we attempt to do it, we will love the flesh, and despise the Lord, because it is pleasing to our carnality, whereas serving the Lord DOESN'T!

So, according to what you understand from God's Word, material things are a sign of "lusts" of the flesh? I guess organizations like the Salvation Army is lusting by their flesh when they ask for money in donations to help others? What would happen to people overseas that groups like Voice Of The Martyrs helps if they took up the principles of asceticism you speak of?

The conclusion then is that if we wish to serve the Lord, we must be joined to the brethren, leaving everything we must leave to do so... Otherwise, we cannot be his disciples!

No, that's actually a principle you're requiring; for our Lord Jesus and His Apostles did not command us to a life of poverty.

 

[Prentis]

Did you read my post, veteran?

You must of because you responded part by part, but I'm asking because you're response leaves me quite confused.

"The conclusion then is that if we wish to serve the Lord, we must be joined to the brethren, leaving everything we must leave to do so... Otherwise, we cannot be his disciples!"

This is what I said. In other words, we must be WILLING to leave everything. It requires then the same death to self. But one person might not have to leave anything! They might just have to open their house to the brethren and become united with the brethren.

No, there is no rule to literally leave everything. Every person does whatever the Lord requires of them... But all must die to self, and leave behind their old lives, that they might be joined to the brethren to be the church of Christ.

 

[veteran]

Did you read my post, veteran?

You must of because you responded part by part, but I'm asking because you're response leaves me quite confused.

"The conclusion then is that if we wish to serve the Lord, we must be joined to the brethren, leaving everything we must leave to do so... Otherwise, we cannot be his disciples!"

This is what I said. In other words, we must be WILLING to leave everything. It requires then the same death to self. But one person might not have to leave anything! They might just have to open their house to the brethren and become united with the brethren.

No, there is no rule to literally leave everything. Every person does whatever the Lord requires of them... But all must die to self, and leave behind their old lives, that they might be joined to the brethren to be the church of Christ.

Maybe you should try reading what you yourself have written Prentis, if you really didn't mean what your statements imply.

What you said that got my attention originally was this...

"For one, that means leave everything he can't bring with him to go live with the brethren... For another, it means to open up his house to the brethren. The common denominator is that those who are Christ's all give up their old life driven by their own desires to a communal life driven by the presence of God among them."

To leave everything and go live with the brethren involves the idea of asceticism; going to live at some monastery or whatnot. To open one's house up to the brethren implies turning one's own home into a what in that same sense? During the disciple's days with the Apostles, they indeed visited each other's houses, held Church in disciple's homes, etc. But they all certainly did not leave everything behind, as we can see Paul going back to Jerusalem to visit brethren per the Book of Acts. Some of the disciples went on the road to preach The Gospel and others did not.

So the real idea of leaving one's old life, the old man, to be in Christ Jesus, does not necessarily have to do with leaving one's home, family, job, nor their material possessions. Lot of Churches today have missionaries that still take The Gospel to foreign lands. Not everyone is called to do that. Some denominations require some missionary work in order to fulfill the role of ordained minister (which I think is a good thing).

 

[Prentis]

Maybe you should try reading what you yourself have written Prentis, if you really didn't mean what your statements imply.

What you said that got my attention originally was this...

"For one, that means leave everything he can't bring with him to go live with the brethren... For another, it means to open up his house to the brethren. The common denominator is that those who are Christ's all give up their old life driven by their own desires to a communal life driven by the presence of God among them."

To leave everything and go live with the brethren involves the idea of asceticism; going to live at some monastery or whatnot. To open one's house up to the brethren implies turning one's own home into a what in that same sense? During the disciple's days with the Apostles, they indeed visited each other's houses, held Church in disciple's homes, etc. But they all certainly did not leave everything behind, as we can see Paul going back to Jerusalem to visit brethren per the Book of Acts. Some of the disciples went on the road to preach The Gospel and others did not.

So the real idea of leaving one's old life, the old man, to be in Christ Jesus, does not necessarily have to do with leaving one's home, family, job, nor their material possessions. Lot of Churches today have missionaries that still take The Gospel to foreign lands. Not everyone is called to do that. Some denominations require some missionary work in order to fulfill the role of ordained minister (which I think is a good thing).

Yes, I agree; the leaving of the old life does not mean the leaving of material possessions. But to be a disciple requires to put God first the same way as the missionary does, only it does not require that you own nothing (because it's not about that).

Of course, that is for the one who wishes to be the Lord's disciple. The twelve, the seventy, the hundred and twenty probably fit into this... On the other hand, the crowd of 5 thousand doesn't, they might be believers, but not disciples.

 

[Prentis]

I am not talking about just what anyone needs to be right before God... To be a good Samaritan... Or a righteous Publican...

I am speaking of the standard of discipleship, which Jesus clearly lays out. "Unless you hate your mother, father, daughter, son, brother, sister, you cannot be my disciple". ie unless you love me more than all those things and are willing to forsake it all for the sake of my training in the body, you cannot be my disciple. You might be a righteous man... But not a saint.

Missionary might a modern word which is more difficult to pin down as to the exact definition... But disciple is clearly defined by Jesus, and it is one who leaves his life behind to be joined with the brethren and the Lord.

 

[Prentis]

Discipleship is a full time thing, not one or two hours a week. Thus the ones who wants to go through discipleship joins himself full time to the brethren and gives his whole life, 24/7, to the Lord.

A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher. (Luke 6:40)

The shared life of the discipleship is like an oven... You take a lump of dough, you put it in the oven, you turn the heat up... And you have bread! You take a disciple, you put him with others in the presence of the Lord, God turns the heat up... And you might just have a saint!

 

[Rach1370]

I didn't vote, because I think it can be dangerous to make a complete judgement call based on one verse alone. Jesus and the disciples talk a lot about what a Christian should do/be/think. I think it's only wise to take all of these together to draw a picture of what a 'disciple' should look like.

As far as all your other answers go, Prentis, some of them have worried me a little. Please correct me if I'm wrong in what I've assumed here, but too often it seems that you put emphasis on what we need to do, and what we can do with the power that God gives us.

You speak of this treasure as though the believer already had it... It's a done deal, right?
Not. Paul, who most likely walked at a higher functioning level in the Spirit than anyone here does considered himself to not have attained... He STILL counted all things dung to attain Christ... including what he did for Christ yesterday!
You made a first step to follow? Good for you... What are you doing today? What are you doing NOW to give yourself to the service of the Lord?

The focus IS on the YOU, because God will hold his end, but you must hold yours. There is no question as to whether God will give himself to save us, but the question is will we give ourselves that he might save us?

This last part really concerns me. We are told again and again in scripture that NOTHING we can do will ever, could ever, play a part in our salvation. You speak of certainty of God's 'holding up' His end, and that we too, need to as well, to meet Him in the middle, as it were. This is an unBiblical idea. Salvation is God's. He's the author, the producer, the director and the actor. We are merely the grateful audience.

And the people are abiding. God saved them from the current corruption, that they might walk in newness of life... Now they must be faithful to the end... As it says, "he who perseveres to the end, he shall be saved"... And if they do, they will spend eternity ruling and reigning with Christ.

Again, you speak of the outcome of our own behaviour, that God gave them that push along the road of salvation, but it's up to us to continue to earn it. I'm sorry, but this is just wrong. It's works based salvation just stated a little differently.

You take a disciple, you put him with others in the presence of the Lord, God turns the heat up... And you might just have a saint!

God is not just an observer that sometimes throws in an influencing factor in our walk. When grace redeems us, it is the Holy Spirit, the third member of the Trinity, that renews our hearts and convicts us of our ongoing sin. It is this power, God's power in our life, that allows us to become more sanctified, more Christ like. Even with our new heart, it's not something we are able to do ourselves. We may have all the desire in the world to be better, but without God working within us, we have not a chance. It's not our power, it's all His, and He works in the way He chooses.


The whole Bible is a story about Jesus. Everything in scripture points to Jesus; His coming, His work, His redeeming grace, His return in glory. It's about how He came to rescue and save His people. And while all that is so totally amazing, the real point is not in our salvation. It's what our salvation points to. God's glory. He saves us not because He needs us, but because He loves us, and because our redemption shows His marvellous and perfect glory. We do not become saved just so we can get out of hell; although that's a good outcome! We do not receive grace so we can 'maximise all that we can be', and use the Spirit's power to become 'more', although in God's wonderful grace that's what we can spend our life doing...becoming more like Jesus. Our salvation, our changed hearts, our new lives lived in Christ...none of it is about us...it's about Him! It's about being able to praise and glorify Him for the just, perfect, holy God that He is. If at any time our lives become more about us, about how we're living, what we must do to be a 'better Christian', what the tick box list is to be a 'real disciple', then we are taking the focus off God. If we do what we are made to do...to worship and love God and make much of His glory, and look that full in the face every day, then He will work within us and we will grow more Christ like. Again, it's not about us and what we do, it's what He does for us. He saves us, and then He works in us, making us more like His Son.
By saying this I'm in no way implying that once we've 'said the prayer' we can go on our merry way and that no responsibility falls to us in how we live. I'm saying that if we, every day, seek God first, in all things; if we love Him wildly and immerse ourselves in prayer and reading of His word and in repenting of our sins; our relationship with Him will grow. If we trust in Him in all circumstances, well, He'll walk with us faithfully in our sanctification.

 

[aspen]

Luke 14
[sup]27[/sup] And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.

What do you think?

You never bothered to explain what it means to bear the burden of your cross OR become Christ's disciple.

 

[Prentis]

I didn't vote, because I think it can be dangerous to make a complete judgement call based on one verse alone. Jesus and the disciples talk a lot about what a Christian should do/be/think. I think it's only wise to take all of these together to draw a picture of what a 'disciple' should look like.

As far as all your other answers go, Prentis, some of them have worried me a little. Please correct me if I'm wrong in what I've assumed here, but too often it seems that you put emphasis on what we need to do, and what we can do with the power that God gives us.





This last part really concerns me. We are told again and again in scripture that NOTHING we can do will ever, could ever, play a part in our salvation. You speak of certainty of God's 'holding up' His end, and that we too, need to as well, to meet Him in the middle, as it were. This is an unBiblical idea. Salvation is God's. He's the author, the producer, the director and the actor. We are merely the grateful audience.



Again, you speak of the outcome of our own behaviour, that God gave them that push along the road of salvation, but it's up to us to continue to earn it. I'm sorry, but this is just wrong. It's works based salvation just stated a little differently.



God is not just an observer that sometimes throws in an influencing factor in our walk. When grace redeems us, it is the Holy Spirit, the third member of the Trinity, that renews our hearts and convicts us of our ongoing sin. It is this power, God's power in our life, that allows us to become more sanctified, more Christ like. Even with our new heart, it's not something we are able to do ourselves. We may have all the desire in the world to be better, but without God working within us, we have not a chance. It's not our power, it's all His, and He works in the way He chooses.


The whole Bible is a story about Jesus. Everything in scripture points to Jesus; His coming, His work, His redeeming grace, His return in glory. It's about how He came to rescue and save His people. And while all that is so totally amazing, the real point is not in our salvation. It's what our salvation points to. God's glory. He saves us not because He needs us, but because He loves us, and because our redemption shows His marvellous and perfect glory. We do not become saved just so we can get out of hell; although that's a good outcome! We do not receive grace so we can 'maximise all that we can be', and use the Spirit's power to become 'more', although in God's wonderful grace that's what we can spend our life doing...becoming more like Jesus. Our salvation, our changed hearts, our new lives lived in Christ...none of it is about us...it's about Him! It's about being able to praise and glorify Him for the just, perfect, holy God that He is. If at any time our lives become more about us, about how we're living, what we must do to be a 'better Christian', what the tick box list is to be a 'real disciple', then we are taking the focus off God. If we do what we are made to do...to worship and love God and make much of His glory, and look that full in the face every day, then He will work within us and we will grow more Christ like. Again, it's not about us and what we do, it's what He does for us. He saves us, and then He works in us, making us more like His Son.
By saying this I'm in no way implying that once we've 'said the prayer' we can go on our merry way and that no responsibility falls to us in how we live. I'm saying that if we, every day, seek God first, in all things; if we love Him wildly and immerse ourselves in prayer and reading of His word and in repenting of our sins; our relationship with Him will grow. If we trust in Him in all circumstances, well, He'll walk with us faithfully in our sanctification.

This is not about Salvation.

This is about growing and attaining the full stature of Christ. This cannot be done without paying the price! Paul is said to have died a few times... Stoned, and brought back to life. He gave his whole life for the sake of being one with Christ.

You never bothered to explain what it means to bear the burden of your cross OR become Christ's disciple.

Being Christ's disciple means leaving all to be with him. We become like children, who dont want to go home, because they love being with their friend... Only now there is depth!

God himself provides the training... I might have a hard time with a brother and his way of being... God uses it to shape my character! Then again, God will use what we give him... One who devotes himself greatly will reap of the spirit more abundantly.

That's bearing your cross, being a disciple.... It's following him and doing HIS will even when it doesn't go to our advantage. Isn't that what Jesus did when he carried his cross?



The funny thing that happens is that the moment someone speaks up about what WE ought to do, people don't like it and say 'stop focusing on us'. We prefer seeing what God can do for us... But the sacrificial life is the one that looks at what it can give, not what it can receive! Could it be that our attitude is wrong?

 

[aspen]

This is not about Salvation.

This is about growing and attaining the full stature of Christ. This cannot be done without paying the price! Paul is said to have died a few times... Stoned, and brought back to life. He gave his whole life for the sake of being one with Christ.



Being Christ's disciple means leaving all to be with him. We become like children, who dont want to go home, because they love being with their friend... Only now there is depth!

God himself provides the training... I might have a hard time with a brother and his way of being... God uses it to shape my character! Then again, God will use what we give him... One who devotes himself greatly will reap of the spirit more abundantly.

That's bearing your cross, being a disciple.... It's following him and doing HIS will even when it doesn't go to our advantage. Isn't that what Jesus did when he carried his cross?



The funny thing that happens is that the moment someone speaks up about what WE ought to do, people don't like it and say 'stop focusing on us'. We prefer seeing what God can do for us... But the sacrificial life is the one that looks at what it can give, not what it can receive! Could it be that our attitude is wrong?

This is not about Salvation.

This is about growing and attaining the full stature of Christ. This cannot be done without paying the price! Paul is said to have died a few times... Stoned, and brought back to life. He gave his whole life for the sake of being one with Christ.



Being Christ's disciple means leaving all to be with him. We become like children, who dont want to go home, because they love being with their friend... Only now there is depth!

God himself provides the training... I might have a hard time with a brother and his way of being... God uses it to shape my character! Then again, God will use what we give him... One who devotes himself greatly will reap of the spirit more abundantly.

That's bearing your cross, being a disciple.... It's following him and doing HIS will even when it doesn't go to our advantage. Isn't that what Jesus did when he carried his cross?



The funny thing that happens is that the moment someone speaks up about what WE ought to do, people don't like it and say 'stop focusing on us'. We prefer seeing what God can do for us... But the sacrificial life is the one that looks at what it can give, not what it can receive! Could it be that our attitude is wrong?

Ok so you are talking about sanctification. I pretty much agree with you - I just think the burden part is what life throws at us. Instead of letting all the troubles in life get to us, we are called to carry them on our journey to redemption.

I also tend to think that the treasures that we accumulate in Heaven are the people we will spend eternity with.

 

[Prentis]

I also tend to think that the treasures that we accumulate in Heaven are the people we will spend eternity with.

I agree... The disciples spend this life with the brothers, and will spend the next also, in the presence of God.

For the disciple, it is all about the Lord. All are looking to the Lord... Together! Ultimately, they spend eternity together because they have the same heart... And we spend it with Christ, which is what the disciples all actually desire.

Their love for each other that goes beyond their love for their neighbor because they see Christ in one other... Christ is their first love, above all and anything else.

Will we drop everything to be part of such a life?

 

[Rach1370]

This is not about Salvation.

This is about growing and attaining the full stature of Christ. This cannot be done without paying the price! Paul is said to have died a few times... Stoned, and brought back to life. He gave his whole life for the sake of being one with Christ.

No, it's not about salvation, because that is something we receive as a free gift from Christ. A gift, definably, cannot be earned, in any way. We know this, not just because of the term 'free gift', but because scripture tells us we cannot earn salvation at all in any way. As far as us needing to 'pay a price', no, we do not need to pay any price, that was done on the cross. When Christ said "it is finished" he did not mean "I've done my part, now it's up to you guys".
I don't know if Paul died a few times or not...he was certainly beaten up pretty badly on several occasions! And yes, he spent his life living for Christ, in an inspiring way. But you will note in his teachings, that he doesn't call all people to live the life he did. He encourages people to work hard in their jobs, to be good parents and spouses, to be good stewards. He does not demand them to give up all for Christ, just in all, to live for Christ. See the difference?

The funny thing that happens is that the moment someone speaks up about what WE ought to do, people don't like it and say 'stop focusing on us'. We prefer seeing what God can do for us... But the sacrificial life is the one that looks at what it can give, not what it can receive! Could it be that our attitude is wrong?

To some extent you are right, it is wrong to constantly seek what you can get from others. But in the context of biblical grace, you are wrong. In fact your above argument is a false dichotomy...it's not just a case of 'if we take from God we're nothing but selfish takers'. Grace and salvation is what God offered us, not what we have demanded from Him. It is not a bad thing to accept these things from Him, in fact we are told it's a sin to deny Him.
The big difference in Christianity, the thing that separates it from other religions is exactly this. Other religions ask "what do I need to do to appease my god?", while Christianity is all about what God has done for us. Is that then the end of the line? We sit back and enjoy the ride, secure in our salvation?? No truly regenerated person would or should have that attitude. Why? Because the truly born again Christian has received a new heart and a helper. That helper? God Himself. The Holy Spirit now lives within us, and we have promises from God as to the purpose of this.
The Holy Spirit empowers us. He gives us new life (being born again of the Spirit - John 3:6-7; 6:63). He gives power for service...Jesus Himself was anointed with the Spirit, and overcame the temptations of Satan with the power of the Spirit. We are told in the gospels that His many miracles are done due to the Spirit (Luke 4:36,40-41; John 3:34-35; John 1:32; Acts 10:38). The Spirit empowers Christians to serve...giving various gifts that help us serve others and God better (1 Cor 12:11). The Spirit empowers our prayer lives, making them effective (Rom 8:26, Eph 2:18).
On and on it goes, the Spirit is constantly active in our lives and I could give hundreds of verses to back that up.
But what we're talking about here is the need to change, to grow towards Christ, yeah? Well, the Spirit does that too. And that's not me having a bad attitude, and doing nothing but holding out my hand because I demand more and more for myself like a selfish child. I get all this from scripture.

And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. (2 Corinthians 3:18 ESV)

But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:13 ESV)

So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. (Romans 8:12-13 ESV)

for I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance, (Philippians 1:19 ESV)

But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. (Romans 6:22 ESV)

and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. (Colossians 3:10 ESV)

On and on it goes. Do we need to act hand in hand with the Spirit as He sanctifies us? You bet, to do otherwise is to 'grieve the Holy Spirit'. It is our job to walk the right path, reading the Bible and praying to bring us always closer to God. But any hope of real and lasting change; that is from the Spirit, not our own striving. Our sanctification is a life long process, and yes, we need to give time, thought and effort into our lives; how we behave, think and act. But even while we're doing that, it should never be about us. It should always be about Jesus, what He did and continues to do for us. We respond through grateful thanks, not a selfish need for more. And the Bible tells us that the more we focus on Jesus, the more we strive to give glory to God and show His glory, the more the Spirit will work within us.

 

[aspen]

Hey Rach,

I think Prentis is right on this one. The Bible is clear about Justification being a free gift, but not Sanctification. We are not completely worthless and dependent on Grace when it comes to loving others like Christ call us to. Even the very act of consent is a work on our part. After Justification (salvation within Protestant doctrine), we are called to pick up our cross and follow Him - Jesus doesn't say lay down and take a nap while I pick up your cross and throw you over my shoulder so that you can follow me. I think we have go way too far in empathizing Grace over our need to participate in our sanctification.

Now, I want to be clear that I am not espousing Catholic doctrine in my above statement - Catholicism does not believe you can separate faith and works. Also justification and sanctification are both involved in redemption and salvation.

 

[Rach1370]

Hey Rach,

I think Prentis is right on this one. The Bible is clear about Justification being a free gift, but not Sanctification. We are not completely worthless and dependent on Grace when it comes to loving others like Christ call us to. Even the very act of consent is a work on our part. After Justification (salvation within Protestant doctrine), we are called to pick up our cross and follow Him - Jesus doesn't say lay down and take a nap while I pick up your cross and throw you over my shoulder so that you can follow me. I think we have go way too far in empathizing Grace over our need to participate in our sanctification.

Now, I want to be clear that I am not espousing Catholic doctrine in my above statement - Catholicism does not believe you can separate faith and works. Also justification and sanctification are both involved in redemption and salvation.

Oh, I don't think sanctification is a free gift, but I definitely think (and think there's enough scripture about it to back my idea) that it's only by the Spirit working within us that we have any hope of moving forward.
Even having been renewed at our conversion (justification) we still aren't capable of growing more like Christ just because we want to. We may have the desires, but our sin nature will always be a stumbling block. It's only through the help of the Spirit that we can slowly, but steadily put one foot in front of the other and move towards Jesus.
I believe this process to be hard...I think it's naive of us to think it won't be. We need to be willing to listen to the Spirit guiding us, willing to repent and go forth, doing as He asks. But we don't move forward on our own desires or knowledge that it has to be done. Even should we succeed on our own, it is only religious foolishness like the Pharisees...and that is not truly becoming more like Christ, is it?

 

[Prentis]

God has not offered the free pass so many claim he has. He has made a way...

The whole idea we can 'own' salvation doesn't make sense... It is the Lord's! We try to save ourselves when we use verses in the Bible to declare ourselves justified. What about all the verses that say things that would condemn us? We tend to write them off.

It's not about growing because WE want to. It's about growing because we are SUBMITTED to him. Otherwise we are still doing our own thing!

This only further demonstrates the reason for this lack of unity; everyone is indeed doing their own thing. If I don't feel like growing today, I just want to take a day off and have a break, Lord, is that fine and dandy? Or should I be submitted to the Lord and say 'whatever you ask, Lord'?

Is God our servant there to cater to our needs, or are we the servants of God, ready to obey him at every word?

The difference is crucial.

 

[aspen]

He cooks and serves the banquet, but we have to eat it.

Also Rach, God's Grace is the only reason we are allowed to exist at all - it is not restricted to salvation.

 

[prism]

God is the 'first mover' in sanctification whereas Prentis leaves me with the impression that God will act only if man acts first.

But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
(1Co 15:10)

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
(Php 2:12-13)

See Who is the initiator (first mover) every step along the Way?

 

[Rach1370]

God has not offered the free pass so many claim he has. He has made a way...

One, I have never said that assurance of salvation equals being free to live as sinners. True regeneration (which will guard against just that) happens when we receive salvation...which is a free gift. This is not up for debate, unless you feel like arguing with scripture. "Free gift".....free...as in, without charge. Gift...as in....something given voluntarily without payment in return.

For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. (Romans 5:17-18 ESV)

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Romans 6:23 ESV)

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:11-14 ESV)

The whole idea we can 'own' salvation doesn't make sense... It is the Lord's! We try to save ourselves when we use verses in the Bible to declare ourselves justified. What about all the verses that say things that would condemn us? We tend to write them off.

Okay. Again, I've never said I 'owned' salvation...that's just ridiculous...that would mean I was the author of salvation. But why on earth do you say it's wrong for me to use scripture to back up my point??? The Bible does say that we are justified in Christ. You are doing the exact same thing you've accused me of above, only opposite. You are ignoring all the verses that say that Jesus won salvation for us on the cross.

And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (Hebrews 10:10 ESV)

He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. (Hebrews 7:27 ESV)

he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. (Hebrews 9:12-15 ESV)

When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. (John 19:30 ESV)

It's not about growing because WE want to. It's about growing because we are SUBMITTED to him. Otherwise we are still doing our own thing!

I never said it's "about growing because WE want to", although we should want to, but for Christ, never for our own gain. In fact, I've never said anything even slightly ^^^^^ like that. My whole point is that we need to do everything we do for God. For His honour and glory, for His work to continue in our lives and others, for His gospel.

This only further demonstrates the reason for this lack of unity; everyone is indeed doing their own thing. If I don't feel like growing today, I just want to take a day off and have a break, Lord, is that fine and dandy? Or should I be submitted to the Lord and say 'whatever you ask, Lord'?

Again, you seem to be reading into things I just didn't say. Have I ever said we need to have a holiday from following God? My point has been we have the Holy Spirit within us helping us in our walk...that's kind of hard to separate from for a day. I've been talking about unity in God. You seem to badly want to grow in godliness, and my point is this: by focusing totally on God, we will find ourselves walking that way. You seem to be advocating works based salvation, just worded slightly differently. You emphasise our part in salvation: " the question is will we give ourselves that he might save us?". I know from previous conversations that you feel that the work on the cross was just the nudge over the starting line, it's up to us to get to the end. My friend, that is just not what the Bible teaches. Jesus won salvation on the cross. Full stop. Nothing we can do will earn of affect our salvation, in fact it is ridiculous and demeaning to Christ to think we can.


For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
(Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV)

On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (Matthew 7:22-23 ESV)

Sadly, those who think 'doing' something, anything, will stand them in good stead, they are in for a sad shock. The only actions that are worth anything are Jesus' actions on the cross. That is the only thing that will earn salvation...there is nothing we can or need to, add.

There is much debate about Paul and James contradicting themselves, but it is just not so:

So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. (James 2:17-18 ESV)

Clearly we can see that works alone are nothing, but works that grow from a true faith are God glorifying, and so precious. Can those works save us? Nope, but a regenerated heart can do many wonderful works for Christ, not for us.

The Bible tells us why, after we have been saved, we do good works. It is not to be saved, or have anything to do with our own salvation...

In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 5:16 ESV)

It's because doing God's work, showing kindness and love; will give glory to God. That's what we're about...praising and honouring Him; giving glory to Him.

Is God our servant there to cater to our needs, or are we the servants of God, ready to obey him at every word?

The difference is crucial.

Indeed the difference is crucial, but I have never claimed that God is my servant in that context. Of course Jesus Himself did actually say that...that he had come to 'serve'. But the point I believe you're trying to make is that it is wrong to feel entitled, to demand things from God. I have never even hinted at that.
Okay, here's the thing, you seem to feel happy to suggest that I need an attitude adjustment, that I'm getting it wrong, that I'm ignoring scripture and even using scripture to prove a wrong point; but I have yet to see you use scripture to back up your thoughts. How about it?

He cooks and serves the banquet, but we have to eat it.

Also Rach, God's Grace is the only reason we are allowed to exist at all - it is not restricted to salvation.

Yes, but the Bible tells us that man, left to himself, would never, ever, seek God. So, in your analogy, it's like people don't have an appetite...they don't even realise they're hungry. It's only when God gives them knowledge of this hunger, let's them know why they're starving to death, that they come to the table.
I know that we only exist by God's grace, that this life is not just about what we get from God. But our salvation from God is not about us. His wonderful grace ultimately shows His glory...and that's what it's about. So in becoming saved it's not an issue of self, it's an issue of that new life showing God's true self and the praise that comes from that. So ultimately it should never be about us...should never be about 'needing to be a better Christian' or 'I'm saved so I can rest on Christ' or 'I'm saved from hell'. All those things are true in their own way, and all are things to rejoice in, but really it all comes down to being able to make much of God.