Rach, understand this is not an attack on your person AT ALL. :) I am speaking of the doctrine, and the doctrine results in lawlessness. Because some have the right heart, they still do right though they believe this doctrine... But teaching it is dangerous!
Prentis, I know you mean well, but you cannot tell someone they need an attitude adjustment without it being personal. For that matter, issue's of doctrine are very personal, because it comes down to intimate beliefs.
But when it comes down to it, I really don't give a hoot if you are attacking me or not. The real issue here is the truth of the gospel. You smile and give very nice sounding self sacrificing answers, but you do not back up your 'doctrines' with scripture, even though many different scriptures have already been given to you that disprove your idea. You very tidily miss my points and never really give a straight answer. So, I'm gonna try and boil it down a bit, and see if we get somewhere.
You claim: that the cross was just the shove across the 'salvation' line, but if we want to truly achieve it, it's up to us to reach the finish line. Biblical? No. See verses above in regards to Jesus' all perfect, all finishing work on the cross.
You claim: that by teaching that salvation is won by Christ on the cross and Him alone, that we are leading people astray into 'dangerous' doctrines. Well, you are teaching them that they may...no, need to play a part in their own salvation. Which, I wonder, is the more dangerous?? I have said that the Bible teaches we play a role in our sanctification process, a role that is often difficult; but that is not salvation (which is a free gift...again, see verses above), sanctification is the day by day, hand in hand effort with the Spirit, to put sin to death and become more Christ like.
I'm actually pretty worried about you Prentis. If you truly think that Jesus didn't win salvation for us once and for all on the cross, as the Bible says, then I am not the one teaching a dangerous doctrine. If you think that by any particular striving on our part can earn or affect our salvation status now or in the long haul, you are dismissing and belittling the work of Christ. That is unbiblical and dangerous. The process of sanctification is long, difficult and requires a new heart of change within us every day. It's something we just couldn't do by ourselves...we require the Holy Spirit living within us helping us. And the Holy Spirit is something we receive once we have the free gift of salvation. But salvation...our justification in the eyes of God....that happens ONLY in Jesus. It was His life and death that purchased our righteousness in God's eyes. Any time you try and wiggle any act, deed or thought of ours into that process, you sully it again. The Bible is so very clear on this, and to disprove it, you're going to have to do more than present verses that 'seem' to say the opposite. You need to first disprove the ones that say it repeatedly and emphatically; and then prove that the 'opposing' verses actually do oppose it. Because my friend, no verses do oppose it. They all compliment, and if you think they don't, then it's only more proof that your own doctrine is horribly flawed.
I think Vashti is saying she has seen 'Christians' who consider that they are saved and not responsible for their sins (they say 'under grace') are not even just, and fair, which many pagans are. They do less then the pagans, and justify themselves in it.
She is not justifying this, just trying to call it as it is.
We are called to do MORE than pagans, because we have greater power available to us, the new nature. They love the ones who loves them, we are called to love all... For example.
I'd say that "Christians" who say they are under grace, but then live and behave as they choose (obviously sinful), then they are not truly saved. Just as those who claim to be saved but behave just as the Pharisees did (trying to earn their salvation by behaving well and doing good works) are not saved.
Jesus said you would be able to tell a true Christian by their fruit. How does the person live? Is there evidence of a new heart?
I think too often people forget that good fruit can look different in different people lives. For Prentis, it may be that he is called by God to give up many worldly possessions, but for another Christian, God may be using their earthly wealth to support an important ministry. For Shep, going out and helping so many people is such a wonderful out pouring of her new heart, but something like that is just not possible for me with a chronic illness. I find that I'm called closer to home.
So often we rush to judge, but we do that based on our own needs, thoughts, convictions and abilities. We are all so different, we need to remember that probably the only thing many of us have in common is Jesus and His saving work in our lives.
