Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
You don't understand what I believe and you are judging me. It seems you don't understand what judging means.I didn’t judge you. READ what I wrote.
I said that according to the Word of God – you are NO better off than the demons because YOU believe like THEY believe, per James 2:19.
You think that intellectual assent is “faith” – and that’s ALL that they have.
Faith requires cooperation and obedience – otherwise it’s just belief . . .,
Oh contrare, monsieur! Scripture reveals a hierarchical line of men.@RLT63 What the Bible believing Christians has is 'the faith once delivered to the saints' (Jude), which is revealed in Scripture, rather than a hierarchical line of men.
Well, I am glad that no one is lying to you by teaching you that. But that means you are lying to yourself since Scripture does not say that the one true Church is everyone who is saved.No man taught me that.
Act 16:30[QUOTE="Marymog, post: 1448195, member: 7405"]Show me in Scripture where it says man is saved ONLY by hearing and believing the Gospel and I will join you in in your fight to spread the truth.
I can quote MULTIPLE passages that tell us what we must do to be saved....none of them say what you just suggested (what your men taught you).
Scripture doesn't say "One true Church" anywhereWell, I am glad that no one is lying to you by teaching you that. But that means you are lying to yourself since Scripture does not say that the one true Church is everyone who is saved.
Yup, there is ONE thing that Scripture tells us we must do to be saved. That is not the ONLY thing Scripture says we must do to be saved. Soooo it appears I will not be joining you and the men who you follow in your fight!
Hi Charlie......James is not opposed to Paul. They are talking about two different works.I am pointing out that Paul makes his case perfectly clear on faith and works, and you are not following his teaching.
I am telling you that James, who seems to be opposed to Paul is much harder to understand than Paul.
I am hinting to you that maybe you don't understand what James is saying. Just maybe James is agreeing with Paul and the faith + works that you see James teaching is not what you think it is.
I will attempt to answer your question based on what I am presuming you mean: The priest is the ruler of the local church. The bishop is the ruler over multiple churches in a diocese. The pope is the ruler over all the priests and bishops. The magisterium is the ruler over the law or teachings of the church.How many rulers do you have over you in the Catholic Church?
Good questionRLT63.....thanks for asking.And you, the men who taught you that and the Catholic Church say it is the one true Church. Where does it even say "One true Church" in the Bible?
You haven't kept up with the conversation.[/QUOTE]Yup, there is ONE thing that Scripture tells us we must do to be saved. That is not the ONLY thing Scripture says we must do to be saved. Soooo it appears I will not be joining you and the men who you follow in your fight!
Mary
...Scripture doesn't say "One true Church" anywhere
Hi Charlie......James is not opposed to Paul. They are talking about two different works.
Paul used the phrase “works of the law” six times and only within Romans and Galatians. When Paul speaks of the “works of the law,” he is referring to what we know as the six hundred and thirteen precepts of the Torah, such as Jewish prohibitions against eating pork, the mandate of circumcision, and the observance of Passover.
James lists of clothing the naked and feeding the hungry (v.15) are the same type of works that Jesus says will merit eternal life: “Inherit the kingdom prepared for you…for I was hungry and you gave me food…I was naked and you clothed me” (Matt. 25:35-36). Notice how James 2:16 then goes on to say; but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. CLEARLY James is talking about doing good works is one of the things we must do to obtain salvation because our faith without those works is dead.
So your "hint" that I possibly don't understand what James is saying or that James isn't teaching what I think he is teaching is preposterous. James is very clear on what he is saying and so is Paul. Paul and James are talking about two different works.
Respectfully, Mary
Charlie,Well, if we have to do good works in order to be saved, as you say James is referring to, then Paul and James are at odds with one another.
When Paul refers to the Law, he is referring to works, that's what Law is. Paul specifically says that if our salvation is of Grace, it is no more of works/law. Paul also makes it perfectly clear that we are saved by Grace, not of works, lest any man should boast. Paul teaches that the Grace of God in salvation is a gift, we can do nothing to earn it, nothing at all. So when we say we must do this or that to be saved, we are not listening to Paul.
Grace is something we don't deserve but are given this Grace of salvation by faith, nothing else! The only condition for salvation is faith in the finished work of Christ, His death, burial, and resurrection.
Paul goes on to tell us that if we place works/law in with Grace to be saved, we have made void our faith. In other words, salvation is by faith alone, with no works at all added to it.
If we have this faith in what Christ has done, total faith in Him and nothing else as the source of our salvation, then the Holy Spirit can work through us "to fulfill the righteousness of the Law in us," as Paul said. Christ has fulfilled the Law/the works for us to be saved, and this righteousness that Christ has earned by keeping the Law perfectly is the righteousness we receive by faith. It is the free gift we receive by the Grace of God when we place faith in Christ.
Charlie,
It's not one or the other (Paul vs James), it is both! It appears you and I don’t disagree about the primary role that faith plays. Paul teaches that justification comes by faith. If you look carefully at Paul’s writings, you will notice that he never says that our righteousness comes from faith alone—only that it comes from faith apart from works. The phrase “faith alone” occurs ONE TIME in the New Testament: in James 2:24. There the inspired apostle denies that justification is from faith alone. Paul categorically excludes works from our salvation. But what kind of works is Paul talking about? If we believe the entire Bible, we need to see how Paul’s words fit together with James’s words, because James clearly says that “a man is justified by works.” If Paul and James mean the same thing by works, then they contradict one another. I think that you would agree with me that the Bible cannot contradict itself? So therefor we must agree that Paul and James mean two different things by the word works.
I agree that the Scripture does not contradict, if it seems to we need to find out why. In this case with Paul and James, there is no contradiction, so we need to find out why it seems to be a contradiction.
So let me ask you, Mary, when Paul says that the faith for our salvation is apart from works, does that not mean faith alone?
Works have no part in your salvation, is what Paul is saying. So when we add anything other than our faith to the requirement of salvation, what have we done? Have we not made our faith void, as Paul said?
James is in total agreement with Paul! James is coming from another angle of works, he is proving that our faith will not be alone as far as PROVING our salvation. James is not saying that faith + works = salvation.
Not true. Stop gaslighting me.You haven't kept up with the conversation.
Yup, I agree, there is no contradiction. They are both talking about different works. Paul, work of the laws, and James work of good deeds.I agree that the Scripture does not contradict, if it seems to we need to find out why. In this case with Paul and James, there is no contradiction, so we need to find out why it seems to be a contradiction.
Not true. Stop gaslighting me.You haven't kept up with the conversation.
Okay that was someone else. I apologize...
I never said it did sooooooooo what's your point?