The One Baptism

[farouk]

I find no evidence that Peter was the first Pope

@RLT63 What the Bible believing Christians has is 'the faith once delivered to the saints' (Jude), which is revealed in Scripture, rather than a hierarchical line of men.

 

[RLT63]

I didn’t judge you. READ what I wrote.

I said that according to the Word of God – you are NO better off than the demons because YOU believe like THEY believe, per James 2:19.
You think that intellectual assent is “faith” – and that’s ALL that they have.

Faith requires cooperation and obedience – otherwise it’s just belief . . .,

You don't understand what I believe and you are judging me. It seems you don't understand what judging means.

 

[Illuminator]

@RLT63 What the Bible believing Christians has is 'the faith once delivered to the saints' (Jude), which is revealed in Scripture, rather than a hierarchical line of men.

Oh contrare, monsieur! Scripture reveals a hierarchical line of men.

Matt. 16:18; 18:18 – Jesus uses the word “ecclesia” only twice in the New Testament Scriptures, which demonstrates that Jesus intended a visible, unified, hierarchical, and authoritative Church.

Acts 20:17,28 – Paul refers to both the elders or priests (“presbyteroi”) and the bishops (“episkopoi”) of the Church. Both are ordained leaders within the hierarchical structure of the Church.

1 Cor. 12:28 – God Himself appoints the various positions of authority within the Church. As a loving Father, God gives His children the freedom and authority to act with charity and justice to bring about His work of salvation.

Eph. 4:11 – the Church is hierarchical and includes apostles, prophets, pastors, and teachers, all charged to build up the Church. The Church is not an invisible entity with an invisible foundation.

Phil. 1:1 – Paul addresses the bishops and deacons of the Church. They can all trace their unbroken lineage back to the apostles.

1 Tim. 3:1; Titus 1:7 – Christ’s Church has bishops (“episkopoi”) who are direct successors of the apostles. The bishops can trace the authority conferred upon them back to the apostles.

1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:5; James 5:14 – Christ’s Church also has elders or priests (“presbyteroi”) who serve the bishops.

1 Tim. 3:8 – Christ’s Church also has deacons (“diakonoi”). Thus, Jesus Christ’s Church has a hierarchy of authority – bishops, priests and deacons, who can all trace their lineage back to Peter and the apostles.

Exodus 28:1 and 19:6 – shows the three offices of the Old Testament priesthood
(1). high priest – Aaron (Ex. 28:1);
(2). Ministerial priests – Aaron’s sons (Ex. 19:6; 28:1); and
(3). Universal priests – Israel (Ex. 19:6).

The New Testament priesthood also has three offices:
(1) High Priest – Jesus Christ (Heb. 3:1);
(2) Ministerial priests – the ordained bishops and priests (Rom. 15:16; 1 Tim. 3:1,8; 5:17; Titus 1:7); and
(3) Universal priests – all the baptized (1 Pet. 2:5,9; Rev. 1:6).

The Biblical Church - Scripture Catholic

 

[Marymog]

No man taught me that.

Well, I am glad that no one is lying to you by teaching you that. But that means you are lying to yourself since Scripture does not say that the one true Church is everyone who is saved.

 

[Marymog]

[QUOTE="Marymog, post: 1448195, member: 7405"]Show me in Scripture where it says man is saved ONLY by hearing and believing the Gospel and I will join you in in your fight to spread the truth.

I can quote MULTIPLE passages that tell us what we must do to be saved....none of them say what you just suggested (what your men taught you).

Act 16:30

And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Act 16:31

¶
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.[/QUOTE]
Yup, there is ONE thing that Scripture tells us we must do to be saved. That is not the ONLY thing Scripture says we must do to be saved. Soooo it appears I will not be joining you and the men who you follow in your fight!

Mary

 

[RLT63]

Well, I am glad that no one is lying to you by teaching you that. But that means you are lying to yourself since Scripture does not say that the one true Church is everyone who is saved.

Scripture doesn't say "One true Church" anywhere

 

[RLT63]

Act 16:30

And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Act 16:31

¶
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Yup, there is ONE thing that Scripture tells us we must do to be saved. That is not the ONLY thing Scripture says we must do to be saved. Soooo it appears I will not be joining you and the men who you follow in your fight!

Mary[/QUOTE]
You haven't kept up with the conversation.

 

[Marymog]

I am pointing out that Paul makes his case perfectly clear on faith and works, and you are not following his teaching.

I am telling you that James, who seems to be opposed to Paul is much harder to understand than Paul.

I am hinting to you that maybe you don't understand what James is saying. Just maybe James is agreeing with Paul and the faith + works that you see James teaching is not what you think it is.

Hi Charlie......James is not opposed to Paul. They are talking about two different works.

Paul used the phrase “works of the law” six times and only within Romans and Galatians. When Paul speaks of the “works of the law,” he is referring to what we know as the six hundred and thirteen precepts of the Torah, such as Jewish prohibitions against eating pork, the mandate of circumcision, and the observance of Passover.

James lists of clothing the naked and feeding the hungry (v.15) are the same type of works that Jesus says will merit eternal life: “Inherit the kingdom prepared for you…for I was hungry and you gave me food…I was naked and you clothed me” (Matt. 25:35-36). Notice how James 2:16 then goes on to say; but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. CLEARLY James is talking about doing good works is one of the things we must do to obtain salvation because our faith without those works is dead.

So your "hint" that I possibly don't understand what James is saying or that James isn't teaching what I think he is teaching is preposterous. James is very clear on what he is saying and so is Paul. Paul and James are talking about two different works.

Respectfully, Mary

 

[Marymog]

How many rulers do you have over you in the Catholic Church?

I will attempt to answer your question based on what I am presuming you mean: The priest is the ruler of the local church. The bishop is the ruler over multiple churches in a diocese. The pope is the ruler over all the priests and bishops. The magisterium is the ruler over the law or teachings of the church.

Who fulfills Hebrews 13:17 and James 5:14 in your church RLT63?

Hope my answer helps and I hope you answer my question!

Mary

 

[Marymog]

And you, the men who taught you that and the Catholic Church say it is the one true Church. Where does it even say "One true Church" in the Bible?

Good questionRLT63.....thanks for asking.

The Catholic Church refers to itself as The Church. Do you have documentation backing up your allegation that it calls itself 'the one true Church'?

 

[Marymog]

Yup, there is ONE thing that Scripture tells us we must do to be saved. That is not the ONLY thing Scripture says we must do to be saved. Soooo it appears I will not be joining you and the men who you follow in your fight!

Mary

You haven't kept up with the conversation.[/QUOTE]
Not true. Stop gaslighting me.

Here is what I said: Show me in Scripture where it says man is saved ONLY by hearing and believing the Gospel.....

Your response was Acts 16:30-31.

CLEARLY that verse does not say that is the ONLY thing that we must do to be saved. Would you care to try again?

 

[Marymog]

Scripture doesn't say "One true Church" anywhere

...

I never said it did sooooooooo what's your point?

 

[Charlie24]

Hi Charlie......James is not opposed to Paul. They are talking about two different works.

Paul used the phrase “works of the law” six times and only within Romans and Galatians. When Paul speaks of the “works of the law,” he is referring to what we know as the six hundred and thirteen precepts of the Torah, such as Jewish prohibitions against eating pork, the mandate of circumcision, and the observance of Passover.

James lists of clothing the naked and feeding the hungry (v.15) are the same type of works that Jesus says will merit eternal life: “Inherit the kingdom prepared for you…for I was hungry and you gave me food…I was naked and you clothed me” (Matt. 25:35-36). Notice how James 2:16 then goes on to say; but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. CLEARLY James is talking about doing good works is one of the things we must do to obtain salvation because our faith without those works is dead.

So your "hint" that I possibly don't understand what James is saying or that James isn't teaching what I think he is teaching is preposterous. James is very clear on what he is saying and so is Paul. Paul and James are talking about two different works.

Respectfully, Mary

Well, if we have to do good works in order to be saved, as you say James is referring to, then Paul and James are at odds with one another.

When Paul refers to the Law, he is referring to works, that's what Law is. Paul specifically says that if our salvation is of Grace, it is no more of works/law. Paul also makes it perfectly clear that we are saved by Grace, not of works, lest any man should boast. Paul teaches that the Grace of God in salvation is a gift, we can do nothing to earn it, nothing at all. So when we say we must do this or that to be saved, we are not listening to Paul.

Grace is something we don't deserve but are given this Grace of salvation by faith, nothing else! The only condition for salvation is faith in the finished work of Christ, His death, burial, and resurrection.

Paul goes on to tell us that if we place works/law in with Grace to be saved, we have made void our faith. In other words, salvation is by faith alone, with no works at all added to it.

If we have this faith in what Christ has done, total faith in Him and nothing else as the source of our salvation, then the Holy Spirit can work through us "to fulfill the righteousness of the Law in us," as Paul said. Christ has fulfilled the Law/the works for us to be saved, and this righteousness that Christ has earned by keeping the Law perfectly is the righteousness we receive by faith. It is the free gift we receive by the Grace of God when we place faith in Christ.

 

[Marymog]

Well, if we have to do good works in order to be saved, as you say James is referring to, then Paul and James are at odds with one another.

When Paul refers to the Law, he is referring to works, that's what Law is. Paul specifically says that if our salvation is of Grace, it is no more of works/law. Paul also makes it perfectly clear that we are saved by Grace, not of works, lest any man should boast. Paul teaches that the Grace of God in salvation is a gift, we can do nothing to earn it, nothing at all. So when we say we must do this or that to be saved, we are not listening to Paul.

Grace is something we don't deserve but are given this Grace of salvation by faith, nothing else! The only condition for salvation is faith in the finished work of Christ, His death, burial, and resurrection.

Paul goes on to tell us that if we place works/law in with Grace to be saved, we have made void our faith. In other words, salvation is by faith alone, with no works at all added to it.

If we have this faith in what Christ has done, total faith in Him and nothing else as the source of our salvation, then the Holy Spirit can work through us "to fulfill the righteousness of the Law in us," as Paul said. Christ has fulfilled the Law/the works for us to be saved, and this righteousness that Christ has earned by keeping the Law perfectly is the righteousness we receive by faith. It is the free gift we receive by the Grace of God when we place faith in Christ.

Charlie,

It's not one or the other (Paul vs James), it is both! It appears you and I don’t disagree about the primary role that faith plays. Paul teaches that justification comes by faith. If you look carefully at Paul’s writings, you will notice that he never says that our righteousness comes from faith alone—only that it comes from faith apart from works. The phrase “faith alone” occurs ONE TIME in the New Testament: in James 2:24. There the inspired apostle denies that justification is from faith alone. Paul categorically excludes works from our salvation. But what kind of works is Paul talking about? If we believe the entire Bible, we need to see how Paul’s words fit together with James’s words, because James clearly says that “a man is justified by works.” If Paul and James mean the same thing by works, then they contradict one another. I think that you would agree with me that the Bible cannot contradict itself? So therefor we must agree that Paul and James mean two different things by the word works.

 

[Charlie24]

Charlie,

It's not one or the other (Paul vs James), it is both! It appears you and I don’t disagree about the primary role that faith plays. Paul teaches that justification comes by faith. If you look carefully at Paul’s writings, you will notice that he never says that our righteousness comes from faith alone—only that it comes from faith apart from works. The phrase “faith alone” occurs ONE TIME in the New Testament: in James 2:24. There the inspired apostle denies that justification is from faith alone. Paul categorically excludes works from our salvation. But what kind of works is Paul talking about? If we believe the entire Bible, we need to see how Paul’s words fit together with James’s words, because James clearly says that “a man is justified by works.” If Paul and James mean the same thing by works, then they contradict one another. I think that you would agree with me that the Bible cannot contradict itself? So therefor we must agree that Paul and James mean two different things by the word works.

I agree that the Scripture does not contradict, if it seems to we need to find out why. In this case with Paul and James, there is no contradiction, so we need to find out why it seems to be a contradiction.

So let me ask you, Mary, when Paul says that the faith for our salvation is apart from works, does that not mean faith alone?

Works have no part in your salvation, is what Paul is saying. So when we add anything other than our faith to the requirement of salvation, what have we done? Have we not made our faith void, as Paul said?

James is in total agreement with Paul! James is coming from another angle of works, he is proving that our faith will not be alone as far as PROVING our salvation. James is not saying that faith + works = salvation.

 

[Charlie24]

I agree that the Scripture does not contradict, if it seems to we need to find out why. In this case with Paul and James, there is no contradiction, so we need to find out why it seems to be a contradiction.

So let me ask you, Mary, when Paul says that the faith for our salvation is apart from works, does that not mean faith alone?

Works have no part in your salvation, is what Paul is saying. So when we add anything other than our faith to the requirement of salvation, what have we done? Have we not made our faith void, as Paul said?

James is in total agreement with Paul! James is coming from another angle of works, he is proving that our faith will not be alone as far as PROVING our salvation. James is not saying that faith + works = salvation.

Will get back with you later this afternoon, Mary. My Mom is in the hospital again and I need to take her some things.

 

[RLT63]

You haven't kept up with the conversation.

Not true. Stop gaslighting me.

Here is what I said: Show me in Scripture where it says man is saved ONLY by hearing and believing the Gospel.....

Your response was Acts 16:30-31.

CLEARLY that verse does not say that is the ONLY thing that we must do to be saved. Would you care to try again?[/QUOTE]
Yeah. They were also baptized. Look I don't want to argue with you about your religion. I'm sorry if I came off that way. Someone else pushed my buttons and I responded in kind. I don't usually have conversations this way. You have your beliefs and I respect that. I don't want to be disrespectful of someone else's beliefs.

 

[Marymog]

I agree that the Scripture does not contradict, if it seems to we need to find out why. In this case with Paul and James, there is no contradiction, so we need to find out why it seems to be a contradiction.

Yup, I agree, there is no contradiction. They are both talking about different works. Paul, work of the laws, and James work of good deeds.

Mary

 

[RLT63]

You haven't kept up with the conversation.

Not true. Stop gaslighting me.

Here is what I said: Show me in Scripture where it says man is saved ONLY by hearing and believing the Gospel.....

Your response was Acts 16:30-31.

CLEARLY that verse does not say that is the ONLY thing that we must do to be saved. Would you care to try again?[/QUOTE]
Yeah. They were also baptized. Look I don't want to argue with you about your religion. I'm sorry if I came off that way. Someone else pushed my buttons and I responded in kind. I don't usually have conversations this way. You have your beliefs and I respect that. I don't want to be disrespectful of someone else's beliefs.

 

[RLT63]

...

I never said it did sooooooooo what's your point?

Okay that was someone else. I apologize