The One Baptism

[Marymog]

So let me ask you, Mary, when Paul says that the faith for our salvation is apart from works, does that not mean faith alone?

Charlie.....Paul says that faith for our salvation is apart from works OF THE LAW. If you are going to reference or quote Paul....quote him correctly.

yet we know that a person is justified not by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by doing the works of the law, because no one will be justified by the works of the law.

Once again, James and Paul are talking about two different works, and both are valid!! You have been taught it can only be one or the other and that is simply not true. Scripture says both so it is BOTH!!


Respectfully, Mary

 

[Marymog]

Works have no part in your salvation, is what Paul is saying. So when we add anything other than our faith to the requirement of salvation, what have we done? Have we not made our faith void, as Paul said?

Completely and utterly and provably NOT TRUE. Paul did not say that works have no part in our salvation. He said works of the LAW.....

I now see where your confusion comes in. You keep misquoting Paul and leaving out the most important word: LAW

 

[Marymog]

James is in total agreement with Paul! James is coming from another angle of works, he is proving that our faith will not be alone as far as PROVING our salvation. James is not saying that faith + works = salvation.

Not true Charlie. James literally said faith without works is dead. That means if you don't have the works....your faith is DEAD! Your faith means NOTHING. Which means faith + works = salvation. Which is what our Lord taught 2,000 years ago:

‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?’ 40 And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.’

41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[BreadOfLife]

I
co.ntrary of your claim. You just dismiss it

Then point me to the POST where you provided evidence to “refute” the fact that Peter was in charge.

I posted evidence to the contrary of your claim. You just dismiss it

Then point me to the POST where you provided evidence to “refute” the fact that Peter was in charge.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Thanks for not making this personal or being insulting

Huh??

It’s because you talk out of BOTH sides of your mouth.
I explain the efficacy of works through obedience as Scripture teaches – which YOU disagree with - then you post verses that talk about “believing” in Christ for your salvation.

I then explain that the Bible teaches that “believe” is NOT talking about a simply emotional or intellectual assent but obedience and surrender (James 2:19, Gal. 5:6, 1 Cor. 13:1-14. YOU respond by claiming that I don’t know your definition of “believe” is.

So, let’s have it, then. What is YOUR definition of “believing” in Christ for your salvation per Matt. 28:31-46, James 2:19, Gal. 5:6 and 1 Cor. 13:1-13?

 

[BreadOfLife]

I posted this definition of Catholic. Google it

You’re about as dishonest as they come here.

In post #469 – I was responding to YOUR post #456 m where you wrote, “Catholic or Roman Catholic? They all think they were the first Church.” This is a FALSE premise, aas there is NO SUCH THING as the “Roman” Catholic Church.
As I educated you in my last post – “Roman” simply refers to ONE of about TWENTY Liturgical Rites that comprise the ONE Catholic Church.

Melkites, Byzantines, Coptics, Maronites, Alexandrians, etc., are EVERY BIT as much a part of that ONE Catholic Church as Roman Catholics.
I corrected you onj this point – but you continue to double-down on this lie.

You’re wrong here because, as usual – you didn’t do your homework . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

You don't understand what I believe and you are judging me. It seems you don't understand what judging means.

Once again – I said, “ACCORDING TO THE WORD OF GOD” - you are no better off than the demons if ALL you do is “believe” in the way YOU are articulating.

You disagree with me that true faith REQUIRES our obedience - which James 2:19 explains is the same type of “faith” as the demons.

I’m not judging you – I am leaving that up with God’s WORD.
I AM judging what you say – not YOU . . .

 

[RLT63]

Once again – I said, “ACCORDING TO THE WORD OF GOD” - you are no better off than the demons if ALL you do is “believe” in the way YOU are articulating.

You disagree with me that true faith REQUIRES our obedience - which James 2:19 explains is the same type of “faith” as the demons.

I’m not judging you – I am leaving that up with God’s WORD.
I AM judging what you say – not YOU . . .

Okay. I don't see how anything good can come of arguing with you so I respect your right to believe as you choose. Have a good day.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Okay. I don't see how anything good can come of arguing with you so I respect your right to believe as you choose. Have a good day.

Not if you continue to be dishonest.
I deal with difference of opinions – but I have a ZERO tolerance for falsehoods . . .

 

[Illuminator]

Yup, I agree, there is no contradiction. They are both talking about different works. Paul, work of the laws, and James work of good deeds.
Mary

The error is using works of the law with good works interchangeably. The Bible doesn't do that. This error appears constantly in many threads.
Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 – Paul’s phrase for “works of the law” in the Greek is “ergon nomou” which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent (“hrvt ysm”) meaning “deeds of the law,” or Mosaic law.

James in James 2 does not use “ergon nomou.” He uses “ergois agathois.” Therefore, Paul’s “works of the law” and James’ “works” are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.

Rom. 3:29 – Paul confirms that works of the law in this case refer to the Mosaic law by rhetorically asking “Or is God the God of the Jews only?” It does not mean “good works.”

Rom. 4:9-17 – Paul provides further discussion that righteousness God seeks in us does not come from Mosaic law, but through faith. But notice that Paul also never says “faith alone.”

Paul does not separate faith, hope and love into conflicting departments. They are cardinal virtues intrinsically related. Love is faith in action, an act of the will, not a warm fuzzy. The Bible repeatedly says we hope for salvation. We are 100% infallibly guaranteed salvation after we are dead and with God, not before. That's why Paul says, "work out your salvation with fear and trembling." Philippians 2:12-13 (sanctification)

If by faith alone the Protestant means faith+hope+love, then the Catholic has no problem with "faith alone". So, it depends on how "faith alone" is defined. Justification by faith apart from hope and love is not found in the Bible. It's a man-made tradition and a heresy. Again, love is manifested by visible actions, it means doing good works soley by the grace of Christ, by cooperating with the grace He gives us in the first place. "Works righteousness" or "salvation by works" apart from the grace of Christ is called Pelagianism, a heresy condemned by the Church 1000 years before the first Protestant was born. Yet we are accused of this heresy only by hostile Bible twisting anti-Catholics who don't know any better.

It's usually the JBFA crowd that play word games with "works".

 

[Charlie24]

Charlie.....Paul says that faith for our salvation is apart from works OF THE LAW. If you are going to reference or quote Paul....quote him correctly.

yet we know that a person is justified not by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by doing the works of the law, because no one will be justified by the works of the law.

Once again, James and Paul are talking about two different works, and both are valid!! You have been taught it can only be one or the other and that is simply not true. Scripture says both so it is BOTH!!


Respectfully, Mary

Ok, to show you that Paul is speaking of any works we may credit toward salvation, look at what he says of Abraham who lived his life before the Law was given to Moses.

Rom. 4:1-4
"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."


Do you see here that Paul once again is telling us that works will cancel out Grace? Works can have nothing to do with our salvation, if it does, then that faith is made void.

Paul is saying that if we claim any works for our salvation, it is no longer Grace, but our salvation is by debt, meaning God owes us salvation. I think you know that God owes us nothing, so salvation has to be by Grace, and Grace alone.

 

[Illuminator]

Interview with Franscis Beckwith, former President of the Evangelical Theological Society:

You spent 32 years in the evangelical world. What could Catholics learn from evangelicals?

In terms of expository preaching, as well as teaching the laity, Protestant evangelicals are without peers in the Christian world.

For instance, it is not unusual for evangelical churches to host major conferences on theological issues in which leading scholars address lay audiences in order to equip them to share their faith with their neighbors, friends, etc. Works by evangelical philosophers and theologians such as [J.P.] Moreland, [Paul] Copan, and William Lane Craig, should be in the library of any serious Catholic who wants to be equipped to respond to contemporary challenges to the Christian faith.

* * *

Then I read the Council of Trent, which some Protestant friends had suggested I do. What I found was shocking. I found a document that had been nearly universally misrepresented by many Protestants, including some friends.

I do not believe, however, that the misrepresentation is the result of purposeful deception. But rather, it is the result of reading Trent with Protestant assumptions and without a charitable disposition.

For example, Trent talks about the four causes of justification, which correspond somewhat to Aristotle’s four causes. None of these causes is the work of the individual Christian. For, according to Trent, God’s grace does all the work. However, Trent does condemn “faith alone,” but what it means is mere intellectual assent without allowing God’s grace to be manifested in one’s actions and communion with the Church. This is why Trent also condemns justification by works.

I am convinced that the typical “Council of Trent” rant found on anti-Catholic websites is the Protestant equivalent of the secular urban legend that everyone prior to Columbus believed in a flat earth.

READ THE WHOLE THING

 

[RLT63]

The error is using works of the law with good works interchangeably. The Bible doesn't do that. This error appears constantly in many threads.
Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 – Paul’s phrase for “works of the law” in the Greek is “ergon nomou” which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent (“hrvt ysm”) meaning “deeds of the law,” or Mosaic law.

James in James 2 does not use “ergon nomou.” He uses “ergois agathois.” Therefore, Paul’s “works of the law” and James’ “works” are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.

Rom. 3:29 – Paul confirms that works of the law in this case refer to the Mosaic law by rhetorically asking “Or is God the God of the Jews only?” It does not mean “good works.”

Rom. 4:9-17 – Paul provides further discussion that righteousness God seeks in us does not come from Mosaic law, but through faith. But notice that Paul also never says “faith alone.”

Paul does not separate faith, hope and love into conflicting departments. They are cardinal virtues intrinsically related. Love is faith in action, an act of the will, not a warm fuzzy. The Bible repeatedly says we hope for salvation. We are 100% infallibly guaranteed salvation after we are dead and with God, not before. That's why Paul says, "work out your salvation with fear and trembling." Philippians 2:12-13 (sanctification)

If by faith alone the Protestant means faith+hope+love, then the Catholic has no problem with "faith alone". So, it depends on how "faith alone" is defined. Justification by faith apart from hope and love is not found in the Bible. It's a man-made tradition and a heresy. Again, love is manifested by visible actions, it means doing good works soley by the grace of Christ, by cooperating with the grace He gives us in the first place. "Works righteousness" or "salvation by works" apart from the grace of Christ is called Pelagianism, a heresy condemned by the Church 1000 years before the first Protestant was born. Yet we are accused of this heresy only by hostile Bible twisting anti-Catholics who don't know any better.

It's usually the JBFA crowd that play word games with "works".

It's more than just saying the right words and mentally believing. I think we agree about that.

 

[RLT63]

Not if you continue to be dishonest.
I deal with difference of opinions – but I have a ZERO tolerance for falsehoods . . .

Okay well we have a difference of opinion.

 

[Illuminator]

Ok, to show you that Paul is speaking of any works we may credit toward salvation,

Yes, if you mean works of the law, wrong if you mean good works.

look at what he says of Abraham who lived his life before the Law was given to Moses.

Rom. 4:1-4
"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."

Your conclusion is the definition of "works of the law" which has nothing to do with Abraham, because the law, as you said, didn't exist at the time of Abraham.

Do you see here that Paul once again is telling us that works will cancel out Grace?

Nonsense. Paul says no such thing.

Works can have nothing to do with our salvation, if it does, then that faith is made void.

James 2:27, faith without (good) works (not with works of the law) IS DEAD. Deal with it.

Paul is saying that if we claim any works for our salvation, it is no longer Grace, but our salvation is by debt, meaning God owes us salvation. I think you know that God owes us nothing, so salvation has to be by Grace, and Grace alone.

Yes, that has always been Catholic teaching the reformers borrowed from us and pretended they discovered it.

If anyone asserts that we can, by our natural powers, think as we ought, or choose any good pertaining to the salvation of eternal life . . . without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . . he is misled by a heretical spirit . . . [goes on to cite Jn 15:5, 2 Cor 3:5]​

The Second Council of Orange (529 A.D.) That's over 1000 years before Luther's nail job. Yet the myth of "works salvation" rages on.

Second Orange again:

The reward given for good works is not won by reason of actions which precede grace, but grace, which is unmerited, precedes actions in order that they may be accomplished meritoriously.​

Yet the myth of "works salvation" rages on.

Likewise, the ecumenical Council of Trent (1545-63): Chapter 5, Decree on Justification:

. . . Man . . . is not able, by his own free-will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight.​

Canon I on Justification:

If anyone saith that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.​

Yet the myth of "works salvation" rages on.

The existence of a measure of human free will in order for man to cooperate with God’s grace does not reduce inevitably and necessarily to Semi-Pelagianism, as Luther, Calvin, and present-day Calvinists wrongly charge. The Catholic view is a third way. Our “meritorious actions” are always necessarily preceded and caused and crowned and bathed in God’s enabling grace. But this doesn’t wipe out our cooperation, which is not intrinsically meritorious in the sense that it derives from us and not God .

. . . . The Catholic Church was right in maintaining against Luther, at the Council of Trent, that heaven is merited by our good works, because this is the clear teaching of revelation. “We have shown that according to Holy Scripture the Christian can actually merit heaven for himself by his good works. But we must realize that these works have to be performed in the state of grace and with a good intention . . .[/QUOTE]

source

 

[RLT63]

Once again – I said, “ACCORDING TO THE WORD OF GOD” - you are no better off than the demons if ALL you do is “believe” in the way YOU are articulating.

You disagree with me that true faith REQUIRES our obedience - which James 2:19 explains is the same type of “faith” as the demons.

I’m not judging you – I am leaving that up with God’s WORD.
I AM judging what you say – not YOU . . .

It's more than just saying the right words and mentally believing.

 

[Charlie24]

Yes, if you mean works of the law, wrong if you mean good works.
Your conclusion is the definition of "works of the law" which has nothing to do with Abraham, because the law, as you said, didn't exist at the time of Abraham.
Nonsense. Paul says no such thing.
James 2:27, faith without (good) works (not with works of the law) IS DEAD. Deal with it.
Yes, that has always been Catholic teaching the reformers borrowed from us and pretended they discovered it.

If anyone asserts that we can, by our natural powers, think as we ought, or choose any good pertaining to the salvation of eternal life . . . without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . . he is misled by a heretical spirit . . . [goes on to cite Jn 15:5, 2 Cor 3:5]​

The Second Council of Orange (529 A.D.) That's over 1000 years before Luther's nail job. Yet the myth of "works salvation" rages on.

Second Orange again:

The reward given for good works is not won by reason of actions which precede grace, but grace, which is unmerited, precedes actions in order that they may be accomplished meritoriously.​

Yet the myth of "works salvation" rages on.

Likewise, the ecumenical Council of Trent (1545-63): Chapter 5, Decree on Justification:

. . . Man . . . is not able, by his own free-will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight.​

Canon I on Justification:

If anyone saith that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.​

Yet the myth of "works salvation" rages on.

The existence of a measure of human free will in order for man to cooperate with God’s grace does not reduce inevitably and necessarily to Semi-Pelagianism, as Luther, Calvin, and present-day Calvinists wrongly charge. The Catholic view is a third way. Our “meritorious actions” are always necessarily preceded and caused and crowned and bathed in God’s enabling grace. But this doesn’t wipe out our cooperation, which is not intrinsically meritorious in the sense that it derives from us and not God .

. . . . The Catholic Church was right in maintaining against Luther, at the Council of Trent, that heaven is merited by our good works, because this is the clear teaching of revelation. “We have shown that according to Holy Scripture the Christian can actually merit heaven for himself by his good works. But we must realize that these works have to be performed in the state of grace and with a good intention . . .

source[/QUOTE]

OK, if it is the good works of the Catholics that they enter into heaven, then let the Catholic stand on that foundation when they meet Christ.

I will stand on my faith alone in Christ for my salvation, with my works a gift to Christ.

 

[Charlie24]

Yes, if you mean works of the law, wrong if you mean good works.
Your conclusion is the definition of "works of the law" which has nothing to do with Abraham, because the law, as you said, didn't exist at the time of Abraham.
Nonsense. Paul says no such thing.
James 2:27, faith without (good) works (not with works of the law) IS DEAD. Deal with it.
Yes, that has always been Catholic teaching the reformers borrowed from us and pretended they discovered it.

If anyone asserts that we can, by our natural powers, think as we ought, or choose any good pertaining to the salvation of eternal life . . . without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . . he is misled by a heretical spirit . . . [goes on to cite Jn 15:5, 2 Cor 3:5]​

The Second Council of Orange (529 A.D.) That's over 1000 years before Luther's nail job. Yet the myth of "works salvation" rages on.

Second Orange again:

The reward given for good works is not won by reason of actions which precede grace, but grace, which is unmerited, precedes actions in order that they may be accomplished meritoriously.​

Yet the myth of "works salvation" rages on.

Likewise, the ecumenical Council of Trent (1545-63): Chapter 5, Decree on Justification:

. . . Man . . . is not able, by his own free-will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight.​

Canon I on Justification:

If anyone saith that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.​

Yet the myth of "works salvation" rages on.

The existence of a measure of human free will in order for man to cooperate with God’s grace does not reduce inevitably and necessarily to Semi-Pelagianism, as Luther, Calvin, and present-day Calvinists wrongly charge. The Catholic view is a third way. Our “meritorious actions” are always necessarily preceded and caused and crowned and bathed in God’s enabling grace. But this doesn’t wipe out our cooperation, which is not intrinsically meritorious in the sense that it derives from us and not God .

. . . . The Catholic Church was right in maintaining against Luther, at the Council of Trent, that heaven is merited by our good works, because this is the clear teaching of revelation. “We have shown that according to Holy Scripture the Christian can actually merit heaven for himself by his good works. But we must realize that these works have to be performed in the state of grace and with a good intention . . .

source[/QUOTE]

Matt. 7:21-23
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

What is the will of the Father for man?

John 6:40
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Have I not shown you that your works will not get you into heaven? Have I not shown you that Grace through faith in what Christ has done for us is the only way to heaven?

Believing in your works to enter heaven is Iniquity, it is sin, and no one who attempts this will see the Kingdom of God!

 

[RLT63]

source

OK, if it is the good works of the Catholics that they enter into heaven, then let the Catholic stand on that foundation when they meet Christ.

I will stand on my faith alone in Christ for my salvation, with my works a gift to Christ.[/QUOTE]
Isaiah says our works are as filthy rags. Isaiah 64:6

 

[Charlie24]

OK, if it is the good works of the Catholics that they enter into heaven, then let the Catholic stand on that foundation when they meet Christ.

I will stand on my faith alone in Christ for my salvation, with my works a gift to Christ.

Isaiah says our works are as filthy rags. Isaiah 64:6[/QUOTE]

That is true! But it is through love for what Christ has done for us that we do His work, not that we will be saved.

Paul said that we will receive rewards for our works, if they pass the test of fire.

I believe those rewards are in the form of crowns, the crowns that the 24 elders, when they seen the Lamb, fell on their faces and cast their crowns at His feet. I hope to do the same, if my works pass the test of fire.