25 questions that prove that ancient Chiliasm was a different animal to modern Premil

[Truth7t7]

the Temple's destruction, was due not to Roman military superiority but to causeless hatred (sinat khinam) among the Jews (Yoma 9b). While the Romans would have won the war in any case, the Jewish civil war both hastened their victory and immensely increased the casualties. One horrendous example: In expectation of a Roman siege, Jerusalem's Jews had stockpiled a supply of dry food that could have fed the city for many years. But one of the warring Zealot factions burned the entire supply, apparently hoping that destroying this "security blanket" would compel everyone to participate in the revolt. The starvation resulting from this mad act caused suffering as great as any the Romans inflicted."

(Yoma 9b) covenantee quoting the Rabbis in the Talmud as authority, and Spiritual Israelite gives it a like, "that made my day"!

 

[Keraz]

Tell me, Keraz, do you believe that Jesus is God? A yes or no will suffice.

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, the Father. John 1:14-18
Many scriptures confirm this fact. Your attempts to make Jesus the world ruler now are gross error. Only after all the prophesied things from Revelation 6L12 to Revelation 19:10, take place, will Jesus Return and take up His reign; for the next thousand years.

Any beliefs different to this, are wrong.

The destruction of Jerusalem was a Divinely orchestrated event.

The conquest of the Jews in 70 to 135 AD, was allowed by God, just as their previous conquests were.
Note; in Ezekiel 21:14, that the Lord will allow the Jews to be conquered 3 times. 1st: the Babylonian conquest; 586 BC. Second; the Romans conquest 70-135 AD,
Third: yet to come - but prophesied to happen by the Lord Himself this next time. Zephaniah 1:1-18

 

[Truth7t7]

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, the Father. John 1:14-18
Many scriptures confirm this fact. Your attempts to make Jesus the world ruler now are gross error. Only after all the prophesied things from Revelation 6L12 to Revelation 19:10, take place, will Jesus Return and take up His reign; for the next thousand years.

Any beliefs different to this, are wrong.

The conquest of the Jews in 70 to 135 AD, was allowed by God, just as their previous conquests were.
Note; in Ezekiel 21:14, that the Lord will allow the Jews to be conquered 3 times. 1st: the Babylonian conquest; 586 BC. Second; the Romans conquest 70-135 AD,
Third: yet to come - but prophesied to happen by the Lord Himself this next time. Zephaniah 1:1-18

You subverted his question

1.) Was Jesus Christ "God" manifest in the flesh?

Yes/No, then give your explanation, waiting?

2.) Do you believe in three persons of God being the "Godhead"?

Yes/No, then give your explanation, waiting?

1 John 5:7-8KJV
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

 

[covenantee]

The conquest of the Jews in 70 to 135 AD, was allowed by God, just as their previous conquests were.

The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was a Divinely orchestrated event signaling the complete destruction of the old covenant and all associated with it, and the complete establishment of the New Covenant and all associated with it.

Notwithstanding your denial of the latter.

 

[Truth7t7]

The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was a Divinely orchestrated event signaling the complete destruction of the old covenant and all associated with it, and the complete establishment of the New Covenant and all associated with it.

Notwithstanding your denial of the latter.

The old covenant was destroyed at the Cross of Calvary, Jerusalems 70AD destruction played no part in biblical fulfillment, none

 

[Keraz]

You subverted his question

I answered it - Jesus is the Son of God.
I also believe 1 John 5:7-8 to be true.

What I do reject is the false teachings of a 'rapture to heaven' and the foolish AMill theory.
Also: your unscriptural idea of a total destruction of the world when Jesus Returns.

 

[Truth7t7]

I answered it - Jesus is the Son of God.
I also believe 1 John 5:7-8 to be true.

What I do reject is the false teachings of a 'rapture to heaven' and the foolish AMill theory.
Also: your unscriptural idea of a total destruction of the world when Jesus Returns.

"Jesus being the Son of God" didn't answer my question below, your side stepping again

As it stands you deny Jesus was "God" manifest in the flesh

1.) Was Jesus Christ "God" manifest in the flesh?

Yes/No

 

[covenantee]

The old covenant was destroyed at the Cross of Calvary, Jerusalems 70AD destruction played no part in biblical fulfillment, none

Throw your Scofield back into the round file from whence it came.

The house was left desolate in 70 AD.

In fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy.

Matthew 23:38
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Luke 13:35
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

 

[Truth7t7]

The house was left desolate in 70 AD.

In fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy.

Matthew 23:38
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Luke 13:35
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

"House" is Israel/Judah not a stone temple in Jerusalem as you suggest

The temple is denoted as being God's "Sanctuary", and it was spiritually destroyed on Calvary, the ultimate blood sacrifice once and for all, the veil was rent in the holy place "Done"!

Your reformed preterist eschatology in 70AD fulfillment fails again

Jesus Is The Lord

Ezekiel 25:3KJV
3 And say unto the Ammonites, Hear the word of the Lord God; Thus saith the Lord God; Because thou saidst, Aha, against my sanctuary, when it was profaned; and against the land of Israel, when it was desolate; and against the house of Judah, when they went into captivity;

Acts 2:36KJV
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

 

[covenantee]

"House" is Israel/Judah not a temple in Jerusalem as you suggest

Hallucinating again?

Copy/paste the word "temple" in my post.

Then take your meds.

 

[covenantee]

(Yoma 9b) covenantee quoting the Rabbis in the Talmud as authority, and Spiritual Israelite gives it a like, "that made my day"!

Yes, we're convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that you know more about Jewish history than the Jews know about Jewish history.

 

[WPM]

I answered it - Jesus is the Son of God.
I also believe 1 John 5:7-8 to be true.

What I do reject is the false teachings of a 'rapture to heaven' and the foolish AMill theory.
Also: your unscriptural idea of a total destruction of the world when Jesus Returns.

Stop avoiding! Do you believe Jesus is God? Do you believe in the deity of Christ?

 

[WPM]

There's a lot more life and study behind me than spending lots of time quoting Church Fathers, historical figures, and biblical sources. I hate getting tied down for hours looking up sources just to prove something that seems so commonly understood to me.

I've lived and breathed the Bible so long that I think, perhaps mistakenly, that other fellow Bible students will see the connection between what I'm saying and my biblical sources. But there's always room for improvement in my methodology. I do think others do deserve to see sources when they genuinely need them.

You're more difficult for me than many because you're well-studied in a number of things, understand them, and yet constantly require the sources in order to argue over them. I have to choose between spending all my time with you and spending time with many others. I usually choose many others, rather than just you. I prefer to diversify rather than get bogged down in a single subject.

But I do appreciate the time you spend, albeit I think you've catalogued a lot of your info to make it easy to copy and paste. I choose not to do that to keep my arguments fresh and not "canned."

Irenaeus believed in a spiritualized Promised Land for spiritual Israel. He taught about the Abrahamic fulfilment in Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 32:2):

"Thus, then, the promise of God, which He gave to Abraham, remains stedfast. For thus He said: “Lift up thine eyes, and look from this place where now thou art, towards the north and south, and east and west. For all the earth which thou seest, I will give to thee and to thy seed, even for ever.” And again He says, “Arise, and go through the length and breadth of the land, since I will give it unto thee;” and [yet] he did not receive an inheritance in it, not even a footstep, but was always a stranger and a pilgrim therein … He said again to him as follows: “I will give this land to thy seed, from the river of Egypt even unto the great river Euphrates.” If, then, God promised him the inheritance of the land, yet he did not receive it during all the time of his sojourn there, it must be, that together with his seed, that is, those who fear God and believe in Him, he shall receive it at the resurrection of the just. For his seed is the Church, which receives the adoption to God through the Lord."

Possessing the Promised Land in fulfilment of the Abrahamic promise is shown here to describe inheriting the new glorified earth by the glorified redeemed saints. This has nothing to do with natural ethnic Israel retaking her ancient boundaries or the reintroduction of the abolished old covenant arrangement on a millennial earth, as many modern Premillennialists promote. The children of Abraham are the redeemed Church of Jesus Christ of all nations.

"[A]s John the Baptist said: “For God is able from the stones to raise up children to Abraham.” Thus also the apostle says in the Epistle to the Galatians: “But ye, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of the promise.” And again, in the same Epistle, he plainly declares that they who have believed in Christ do receive Christ, the promise to Abraham thus saying, “The promises were spoken to Abraham, and to his seed. Now He does not say, And of seeds, as if [He spake] of many, but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” And again, confirming his former words, he says, “Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore, that they which are of faith are the children of Abraham. But the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, declared to Abraham beforehand, That in thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which are of faith shall be blessed with faithful Abraham.” Thus, then, they who are of faith shall be blessed with faithful Abraham, and these are the children of Abraham. Now God made promise of the earth to Abraham and his seed; yet neither Abraham nor his seed, that is, those who are justified by faith, do now receive any inheritance in it; but they shall receive it at the resurrection of the just. For God is true and faithful; and on this account He said, “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth” (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 32:2).

Irenaeus refers to the Abrahamic covenant and spiritualizes it to relate to the Church, not national Israel. Abraham is presented as experiencing this promise with all the people of God throughout the ages when Jesus comes. The ironic thing is: in keeping with the early Amillennialists, the earliest Chiliasts emphasized the New Testament heavenly spiritual hope rather than the Jewish earthly carnal one, that most contemporary Premillennialists promote. They spiritualized the fulfillment of Israel's hope, relating it to the Church, the Promised Land being Christ, and, in doing so, they exposed the faulty Premil literalist Zionists hope. It is the “meek” of all nations that are the real inheritors of the Abrahamic promise.

"And again the same speaks thus: “These things saith the Lord, I will gather Israel from all nations whither they have been driven, and I shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the sons of the nations: and they shall dwell in their own land, which I gave to my servant Jacob. And they shall dwell in it in peace; and they shall build houses, and plant vineyards, and dwell in hope, when I shall cause judgment to fall among all who have dishonoured them, among those who encircle them round about; and they shall know that I am the Lord their God, and the God of their fathers.” Now I have shown a short time ago that the church is the seed of Abraham; and for this reason, that we may know that He who in the New Testament “raises up from the stones children unto Abraham,” is He who will gather, according to the Old Testament, those that shall be saved from all the nations, Jeremiah says: “Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord liveth, who led the children of Israel from the north, and from every region whither they had been driven; He will restore them to their own land which He gave to their fathers” (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 34:1).

Irenaeus teaches in Against Heresies IV. 8:1:

"And the Lord [also bears witness to him, in the first place, indeed, by raising up children to him from the stones, and making his seed as the stars of heaven, saying, “They shall come from the east and from the west, from the north and from the south, and shall recline with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;” and then again by saying to the Jews, “When ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of heaven, but you yourselves cast out.” This, then, is a clear point, that those who disallow his salvation, and frame the idea of another God besides Him who made the promise to Abraham, are outside the kingdom of God, and are disinherited from [the gift of] incorruption, setting at naught and blaspheming God, who introduces, through Jesus Christ, Abraham to the kingdom of heaven, and his seed, that is, the Church, upon which also is conferred the adoption and the inheritance promised to Abraham."

This text from Irenaeus (in Against Heresies IV. 8:1) lays bare his view in regard to the fulfilment of the Abrahamic land-promises. Irenaeus spiritualizes the whole divine pledge. He identifies it with the new glorified state that arrives at the second coming. He also carefully relates it exclusively to the redeemed of all races throughout the centuries. He anticipates an incorruptible perfect earth, not some supposed sin-curse goat-infested death-blighted future millennium as Premillennialists promote. This is not the Zionist depiction that Premillennialists promote. Quite the opposite. In fact, Irenaeus very pointedly cuts across the Christ-rejecter by saying: they “are disinherited from [the gift of] incorruption” that is approaching. The inheritance does not belong ethnic Israel, as modern-day Premillennialists assert, but to “Abraham ... and his seed, that is, the Church.” It belongs to the followers of Jesus Christ.

The “raising up children to him from the stones, and making his seed as the stars of heaven” is identified with the ingathering of Gentiles during this intra-Advent period who are going to be glorified when Jesus comes. They are said to “come from the east and from the west, from the north and from the south” (talking about the global scope of this promise) “and shall recline with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.” This is a spiritual inheritance for God’s elect to look forward to. This is classic Amillennialism, not Premillennialism, which saturates its future earth with every vestige of corruption and mortality.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Irenaeus believed in a spiritualized Promised Land for spiritual Israel. He taught about the Abrahamic fulfilment in Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 32:2):

...Possessing the Promised Land in fulfilment of the Abrahamic promise is shown here to describe inheriting the new glorified earth by the glorified redeemed saints. This has nothing to do with natural ethnic Israel retaking her ancient boundaries or the reintroduction of the abolished old covenant arrangement on a millennial earth, as many modern Premillennialists promote. The children of Abraham are the redeemed Church of Jesus Christ of all nations.

Irenaeus refers to the Abrahamic covenant and spiritualizes it to relate to the Church, not national Israel. Abraham is presented as experiencing this promise with all the people of God throughout the ages when Jesus comes. The ironic thing is: in keeping with the early Amillennialists, the earliest Chiliasts emphasized the New Testament heavenly spiritual hope rather than the Jewish earthly carnal one, that most contemporary Premillennialists promote. They spiritualized the fulfillment of Israel's hope, relating it to the Church, the Promised Land being Christ, and, in doing so, they exposed the faulty Premil literalist Zionists hope. It is the “meek” of all nations that are the real inheritors of the Abrahamic promise.

This text from Irenaeus (in Against Heresies IV. 8:1) lays bare his view in regard to the fulfilment of the Abrahamic land-promises. Irenaeus spiritualizes the whole divine pledge. He identifies it with the new glorified state that arrives at the second coming. He also carefully relates it exclusively to the redeemed of all races throughout the centuries. He anticipates an incorruptible perfect earth, not some supposed sin-curse goat-infested death-blighted future millennium as Premillennialists promote. This is not the Zionist depiction that Premillennialists promote. Quite the opposite. In fact, Irenaeus very pointedly cuts across the Christ-rejecter by saying: they “are disinherited from [the gift of] incorruption” that is approaching. The inheritance does not belong ethnic Israel, as modern-day Premillennialists assert, but to “Abraham ... and his seed, that is, the Church.” It belongs to the followers of Jesus Christ.

Again, Replacement Theology in the Early Chiliasts does not make them "Amillennialists!" I get it--you think it does. One has to wonder, Why is this so important to you, if all you want to do is spiritualize a time period of one thousand years? You certainly won't get that from the Chiliasts, even if they spiritualize the promises made to national Israel.

And no, Premillennialists do not characterize the Millennium as you claim they do. Please provide a quote from them that use the words as you do: "sin-curse goat-infested death-blighted." Or is that just the way you *wish* to characterize what they believe? It may help your position to put words into their mouths?

Justin Martyr
Dialogue Trypho--CHAPTER LXXX :

And Trypho to this replied, "I remarked to you sir, that you are very anxious to be safe in all respects, since you cling to the Scriptures. But tell me, do you really admit that this place, Jerusalem, shall be rebuilt; and do you expect your people to be gathered together, and made joyful with Christ and the patriarchs, and the prophets, both the men of our nation, and other proselytes who joined them before your Christ came? or have you given way, and admitted this in order to have the appearance of worsting us in the controversies?"

Then I answered, "I am not so miserable a fellow, Trypho, as to say one thing and think another. I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and[believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware...

CHAPTER LXXXI:

For Isaiah spoke thus concerning this space of a thousand years: 'For there shall be the new heaven and the new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, or come into their heart; but they shall find joy and gladness in it, which things I create.

CHAPTER XXXII:

And when I had ceased, Trypho said, "These and such like Scriptures, sir, compel us to wait for Him who, as Son of man, receives from the Ancient of days the everlasting kingdom. But this so-called Christ of yours was dishonorable and inglorious, so much so that the last curse contained in the law of God fell on him, for he was crucified."

Then I replied to him, "If, sirs, it were not said by the Scriptures which I have already quoted, that His form was inglorious, and His generation not declared, and that for His death the rich would suffer death, and with His stripes we should be healed, and that He would be led away like a sheep; and if I had not explained that there would be two advents of His,--one in which He was pierced by you; a second, when you shall know Him whom you have pierced, and your tribes shall mourn, each tribe by itself, the women apart, and the men apart...

CHAPTER CXX:

Observe, too, how the same promises are made to Isaac and to Jacob. For thus He speaks to Isaac: 'And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.' And to Jacob: 'And in thee and in thy seed shall all families of the earth be blessed.' He says that neither to Esau nor to Reuben, nor to any other; only to those of whom the Christ should arise, according to the dispensation, through the Virgin Mary. But if you would consider the blessing of Judah, you would perceive what I say. For the seed is divided from Jacob, and comes down through Judah, and Phares, and Jesse, and David. And this was a symbol of the fact that some of your nation would be found children of Abraham, and found, too, in the lot of Christ.

CHAPTER CXXXVI:

For you see how He now addresses the people, saying a little before: 'As the grape shall be found in the cluster, and they will say, Destroy it not, for a blessing is in it; so will I do for My servant's sake: for His sake I will not destroy them all.' And thereafter He adds: 'And I shall bring forth the seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah.' It is plain then that if He thus be angry with them, and threaten to leave very few of them, He promises to bring forth certain others, who shall dwell in His mountain.

From the above verses it is apparent to me that Justin believed that OT Hope of Israel, or the "Jewish Hope," continued to exist despite the transfer of the Kingdom of God from Israel to the Roman State, as Jesus predicted. He believed a Jewish remnant would participate in the promises God made Abraham, even if the promise of a nation, for Justin, meant that only a remnant of Jews would succeed in becoming Christians.

As you deny Amills are Replacement Theology advocates I would argue that the Jewish remnant did, for Premills, inherit the Millennium, as promised. This is hardly Amillennial Teaching, as you claim.

And what you've several times claimed, that I haven't shown that the Prophets' promise of Israel's Restoration became the basis of Premillennial Teaching of the Millennium, you have that above, where Isaiah is quoted as the principle by which NT Millennial Teaching in part originates.

An Amill on this forum recently argued that the coming of the Son of Man to the Ancient of Days was not an eschatological revelation on earth. But here Justin presents exactly in that way, indicating that he is not in that sense an Amillennialist! I'm not sure how other Amills see this passage in Dan 7, but there is no question that Justin sees the Son of Man as appearing in Jerusalem on earth. In what way does this make Justin an "Amillennialist?"

 

[Truth7t7]

Again, Replacement Theology in the Early Chiliasts does not make them "Amillennialists!" I

A Phrase invented in the 20th Century, by followers of John N.Darby 1830's in dispensationalism

 

[Randy Kluth]

A Phrase invented in the 20th Century, by followers of John N.Darby 1830's in dispensationalism

Looks like you didn't read the entire post? I recognized the issue, which clearly either you ignored or didn't see. I said:
"As you deny Amills are Replacement Theology advocates I would argue that the Jewish remnant did, for Premills, inherit the Millennium, as promised."

Since you apparently missed it, let me explain. Even if Amills are *not* RT advocates this Church Father claimed that at least a Jewish remnant will inherit the Millennium, in accordance with promises made to Abraham and guarantees made by the Prophets of the OT. That is, we both agree that Jews are included in the Christian Hope.

But Justin believed that Hope would include a remnant of *Jews* in Jerusalem. And this fulfills the Abrahamic Promise that Israel would be included in the inheritance. The inclusion of Jews *as part of the Abrahamic Promise* is *not* Replacement Theology!

My issue with RT is not just the fact the nation of Israel is reduced to a small remnant, but also that Jews are completely excluded. Most Amills would not exclude any race or ethnicity, including the Jews. But by claiming that the Jews no longer have a basis for national restoration resting on the Abrahamic Promise indicates that Israel has been excised from the Promises, or "replaced" by Gentile (and Jewish) Christians.

Furthermore, the claim that "Israel" should be spiritualized to refer to Christianity and not to a nation that has yet to become Christian also removes Israel as a possible convert at Christ's Coming. Again, this substitutes for national Israel a Church that only limits Jewish participation to a small remnant--something less than a full nation.

However, the fact this Jewish inheritance, despite it being a small remnant of Jews, takes place in Jerusalem for Justin indicates he is not Amill in his beliefs about Israel. Premill belief is that Jews and Gentiles both obtain a Millennial inheritance *on earth* for a thousand years. This is completely apart from the issue of RT.

 

[Truth7t7]

Looks like you didn't read the entire post? I recognized the issue, which clearly either you ignored or didn't see. I said:
"As you deny Amills are Replacement Theology advocates I would argue that the Jewish remnant did, for Premills, inherit the Millennium, as promised."

Since you apparently missed it, let me explain. Even if Amills are *not* RT advocates this Church Father claimed that at least a Jewish remnant will inherit the Millennium, in accordance with promises made to Abraham and guarantees made by the Prophets of the OT. That is, we both agree that Jews are included in the Christian Hope.

But Justin believed that Hope would include a remnant of *Jews* in Jerusalem. And this fulfills the Abrahamic Promise that Israel would be included in the inheritance. The inclusion of Jews *as part of the Abrahamic Promise* is *not* Replacement Theology!

My issue with RT is not just the fact the nation of Israel is reduced to a small remnant, but also that Jews are completely excluded. Most Amills would not exclude any race or ethnicity, including the Jews. But by claiming that the Jews no longer have a basis for national restoration resting on the Abrahamic Promise indicates that Israel has been excised from the Promises, or "replaced" by Gentile (and Jewish) Christians.

Furthermore, the claim that "Israel" should be spiritualized to refer to Christianity and not to a nation that has yet to become Christian also removes Israel as a possible convert at Christ's Coming. Again, this substitutes for national Israel a Church that only limits Jewish participation to a small remnant--something less than a full nation.

However, the fact this Jewish inheritance, despite it being a small remnant of Jews, takes place in Jerusalem for Justin indicates he is not Amill in his beliefs about Israel. Premill belief is that Jews and Gentiles both obtain a Millennial inheritance *on earth* for a thousand years. This is completely apart from the issue of RT.

You used the words "Replacement Theology"

A Phrase invented in the 20th Century, by followers of John N.Darby 1830's in dispensationalism

 

[WPM]

Again, Replacement Theology in the Early Chiliasts does not make them "Amillennialists!" I get it--you think it does. One has to wonder, Why is this so important to you, if all you want to do is spiritualize a time period of one thousand years? You certainly won't get that from the Chiliasts, even if they spiritualize the promises made to national Israel.

And no, Premillennialists do not characterize the Millennium as you claim they do. Please provide a quote from them that use the words as you do: "sin-curse goat-infested death-blighted." Or is that just the way you *wish* to characterize what they believe? It may help your position to put words into their mouths?

Justin Martyr
Dialogue Trypho--CHAPTER LXXX :

And Trypho to this replied, "I remarked to you sir, that you are very anxious to be safe in all respects, since you cling to the Scriptures. But tell me, do you really admit that this place, Jerusalem, shall be rebuilt; and do you expect your people to be gathered together, and made joyful with Christ and the patriarchs, and the prophets, both the men of our nation, and other proselytes who joined them before your Christ came? or have you given way, and admitted this in order to have the appearance of worsting us in the controversies?"

Then I answered, "I am not so miserable a fellow, Trypho, as to say one thing and think another. I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and[believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware...

Justin also describes the spiritual nature of the kingdom that is approaching as spiritual and heavenly:

"[W]hen you hear that we look for a kingdom, you suppose, without making inquiry, that we speak of a human kingdom; whereas we speak of that which is with God, as appears also from the confession of their faith made by those who are charged with being Christians, though they know that death is the punishment awarded to him who so confesses. For if we looked for a human kingdom, we should also deny our Christ, that we might not be slain and we should strive to escape detection, that we might obtain what we expect. But since our thoughts are not fixed on the present, we are not concerned when men cut us off; since also death is a debt which must at all events be paid" (The First Apology of Justin, Chapter 11).

Justin did not look for an earthly temporary human kingdom on this earth when Christ comes, but a heavenly one. His words negate the whole modern-day Premillennialist expectation of a restoration of old covenant practices with natural Israel being elevated above all others nation for a thousand years. He negates the idea of mortals saturating the new earth. Justin strongly responds: “For if we looked for a human kingdom, we should also deny our Christ.”

"For the true spiritual Israel, and descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham (who in uncircumcision was approved of and blessed by God on account of his faith, and called the father of many nations), are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ" (Dialogue with Trypho, 11).

Justin explains that those in Christ are spiritual Israel and the true offspring of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Judah. The new covenant is an ongoing arrangement from the cross and man’s only hope of salvation.

"[T]here is now another covenant, and another law has gone forth from Zion. Jesus Christ circumcises all who will—as was declared above—with knives of stone; that they may be a righteous nation, a people keeping faith, holding to the truth, and maintaining peace. Come then with me, all who fear God, who wish to see the good of Jerusalem. Come, let us go to the light of the Lord; for He has liberated His people, the house of Jacob. Come, all nations; let us gather ourselves together at Jerusalem, no longer plagued by war for the sins of her people. 'For I was manifest to them that sought Me not; I was found of them that asked not for Me;' He exclaims by Isaiah: 'I said, Behold Me, unto nations which were not called by My name. I have spread out My hands all the day unto a disobedient and gainsaying people, which walked in a way that was not good, but after their own sins. It is a people that provokes Me to my face'" (Dialogue with Trypho, 24).

Jerusalem is here spiritualized and is shown to be the abode of the elect of God throughout the nations. Coming to Jerusalem is depicted as coming to “to the light of the Lord.” It is a picture of salvation.

"I wish, sirs, to learn from you what is the force of the name Israel… The name Israel signifies this, A man who overcomes power; for Isra is a man overcoming, and El is power. And that Christ would act so when He became man was foretold by the mystery of Jacob's wrestling with Him who appeared to him, in that He ministered to the will of the Father, yet nevertheless is God, in that He is the first-begotten of all creatures. For when He became man, as I previously remarked, the devil came to Him—i.e., that power which is called the serpent and Satan—tempting Him, and striving to effect His downfall by asking Him to worship him. But He destroyed and overthrew the devil, having proved him to be wicked, in that he asked to be worshipped as God, contrary to the Scripture; who is an apostate from the will of God … But you, having understood none of this, and not being prepared to understand, since you are the children of Jacob after the fleshly seed, expect that you shall be assuredly saved. But that you deceive yourselves in such matters, I have proved by many words" (Dialogue with Trypho, 125).

"Jacob was called Israel; and Israel has been demonstrated to be the Christ, who is, and is called, Jesus" (Dialogue with Trypho, 134).

"As, therefore, Christ is the Israel and the Jacob, even so we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race. … understand, therefore, that the seed of Jacob now referred to is something else, and not, as may be supposed, spoken of your people (the Jewish people) … there are two seeds of Judah, and two races, as there are two houses of Jacob: the one begotten by blood and flesh, the other by faith and the Spirit" (Dialogue with Trypho, 135).

The early Church fathers believed that old covenant national theocratic Israel is long-finished through the introduction of the new covenant – which is focused on all nations equally. In their estimation the Church is true Israel, spiritual Jews, the children of promise, Abraham’s seed. Race is no longer a benefit, simply grace. All nations can encounter Christ today and be spiritually circumcised. This is all classic Amillennial theology.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Justin also describes the spiritual nature of the kingdom that is approaching as spiritual and heavenly:..

Justin did not look for an earthly temporary human kingdom on this earth when Christ comes, but a heavenly one...

Justin explains that those in Christ are spiritual Israel and the true offspring of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Judah. The new covenant is an ongoing arrangement from the cross and man’s only hope of salvation....

Jerusalem is here spiritualized and is shown to be the abode of the elect of God throughout the nations. Coming to Jerusalem is depicted as coming to “to the light of the Lord.” It is a picture of salvation.

The early Church fathers believed that old covenant national theocratic Israel is long-finished through the introduction of the new covenant – which is focused on all nations equally. In their estimation the Church is true Israel, spiritual Jews, the children of promise, Abraham’s seed. Race is no longer a benefit, simply grace. All nations can encounter Christ today and be spiritually circumcised. This is all classic Amillennial theology.

All Christians believe in the New Covenant, and believe that the Abrahamic Promises are fulfilled in people who follow that New Covenant, both Jew and non-Jew. You prove nothing in this! We agree that Israel and the nations are fulfilled not in the Old Covenant of Law, which applied only to Israel, but rather, in the New Covenant of Christ.

This has nothing to do with whether God's promises are still to be literally fulfilled in the Jewish race and in the nation of Israel. It has nothing to do with your sense of Jerusalem being a purely "spiritual city" in heaven!

You completely bypass the fact that Justin saw Jerusalem as an *earthly reality.* By spiritualizing it as a heavenly reality he did not render Jerusalem *non-earthly!* On the contrary, he views Jerusalem as still earthly, and yet enhanced by its new Christian definition.

Justin saw, as Paul did, a joining of non-Jewish nationals to the spiritualized Israeli nation. Israel did not lose its literal value, as such, for Justin. It just excluded those who failed to live by God's laws, and were thus, cut off, as even the Law indicated. He was reducing the definition of "Israel" to include only Christians in its ultimate form.

Furthermore, "Spiritual Israel" becomes, for Justin, a "nation" of many nations not because it ceased to refer to a literal nationality or race, but because the promises made to Abraham concerned a single people consisting of Abraham's faith, and yet expressed in both literal Israel and many nations. So "Spiritual Israel" did not, for Justin, cease to consist of Natural Israel along with Many Nations. When they have Christian Faith they all become part of "Spiritual Israel" for Justin. But Israel does not stop being literal Israel, assuming we're speaking of Jews with Christian faith.

At this point let me say that Justin's definition of "Spiritual Israel" leans in the direction of Replacement Theology, which I disagree with. However, he does not go so far as to discount Jewish inclusion in this promised Salvation, nor does he go as far as some Amills who may wish to believe the end of the Old Covenant ended literal Israel's hope in the Abrahamic Covenant.

We know that at Jesus' 1st Coming, most of Israel rejected Christianity. So Israel is being viewed by both Paul and Justin in her ideal form, as her call to eventually become a godly nation once again. Justin merely expanded his notion of the nation "Israel" to include Gentile Christians along with Jewish Christians, as the Abrahamic Promise indicated. The point is, "Israel" didn't stop referring to literal physical Israel for Justin, nor did it exclude Jewish People. It was just reduced to Christian Jews, and it was expanded to include other nationalities.

You may very well agree with this? But do you believe that the Abrahamic Promises were being literally fulfilled in Natural Israel, when they will turn to Christianity? No. But Justin apparently felt that a Jewish remnant does maintain hope in such a future reality, though it is less clear that this will result in anything more than Jewish inclusion, as a racial group, in the international Church.

When we read the blessings and curses of the Law, we note that it implied that Israel will at times, as a nation, obey and be blessed, while at other times disobey and be cursed. This has nothing to do with obtaining Salvation under the Law.

Many get sidetracked by the thought that this has to do with individual Salvation--it does not! It has to do with God promising to bless *nations* that obey His laws.

So even though Israel experiences disobedience in the current NT era, it does not imply that individual Jews do not retain these promises of Christian obedience. Neither does it imply that Israel, as a nation, cannot return again to obedience and to blessing. However, if individual Salvation remains active for the individual Jew that embraces Christianity, then God's promises to Israel is still being literally fulfilled for literal Jews!

My main point is that Justin, despite these "spiritual" and "heavenly" references to earthly realities, did not mean by this that they are fulfilled as such as non-earthly entities. I believe it is quite the contrary, since he believed in a literal thousand year Kingdom in earthly Jerusalem. All of your references to "heavenly" or "spiritual" Jerusalem does not successfully refute this!

Nor does Justin's reference to a "spiritualized Israel" mean that God's promises to Abraham were not literally being fulfilled *on earth* through a literal remnant of Israel and through the joining of non-Jewish nationals. On the contrary, his "spiritualized" sense of "Israel" retained its earthly grounding--these things were merely enhanced by their identification with Christianity and the New Covenant.

That is, the literal meaning of Jerusalem and Israel was not being changed substantially with respect to their earthly grounding. Rather, they were simply being reduced to things that fit God's spiritual qualifications as Christian realities. Literal Jews and other nations were to be literally fulfilled in this "Spiritual Israel" in the thousand year Kingdom, though in a sense they already exist. Clearly, for Justin, they are not yet completely fulfilled, and will require a future development. This is *not* Amillennialism!

And if Justin referred to literal Jews, and to literal Israel, despite its "spiritual qualifications and the inclusion of Gentiles with it," then the fulfillment of such in a literal earthly Jerusalem makes more sense.

It is "heavenly" in the sense it is not yet here. It is "spiritual" in the sense it must be Christian. And it is on earth in the sense it must literally fulfill God's promises to Abraham. There must be a literal Jewish People, a literal Israel, and this literal Israel must have joined with it many other Christian nations. Justin's use of the term "Spiritual Israel" to include less than a full Israeli nation and the inclusion of many other nations does not in the least remove his sense of their literal fulfillment on earth. He simply loses faith that these ethnicities can become successful national entities, since Israel had failed at that.

If so, all this must take place *on earth,* because it has not yet been fulfilled in the eyes of Justin. That's why he promises a future Millennial Kingdom, replete with these earthly realities. His "spiritualized" version of "Israel," therefore, is hardly Amillennial, as you propose. On the contrary, the Abrahamic Promises retain their original values. It only introduces the necessity of Christian fulfillment.

Incidentally, you did not provide any quotations from the Church Fathers indicating their view of the Millennium is "goat infested," as you indicated? Why?

 

[Keraz]

Thanks, NWRandy, you write very sensible and lucid posts.
However: you and many people still seem to think that the Jewish State of Israel, is the only Israel in the world.
This belief denies and discounts the over 160 Bible Prophesies that state the two entities: The House of Judah and the House of Israel. The real Israel being the Northern ten Tribes, still scattered among the nations.
The fact of their continued separation, is proved by how the Promises to them when they do re-join, as per Ezekiel 37:15-28, have not yet been fulfilled.
Only after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath has cleansed the holy Land, will both Houses go there to live, as Jeremiah 50:4-5 says will happen.