Saved by Faith vs Repentance and Obeying the Commandments

[amigo de christo]

Well even if what you're saying is correct, then how again were the three examples in the OP saved under the old law, wouldn't they have had to offer a sin offering to get forgiveness?

There is no remission of sins without blood . The problem was that many under the old covenant
were living it up in evil and they going through the motions of offering up the sacrifices . THEY had no heart for GOD .
GOD was wore out with even their praises and their sacrfices . WHY . Cause they had no heart for GOD
it was simply all routine . THANK GOD FOR JESUS that now we have been given new hearts by which we can truly worship GOD
as HE has always desired to be worshipped . Its kinda like what has become of christanity in large today .
Many now simply live it up in sin , embrace evil , and yet go to confessions , ONLY to live it up in sin and later go back to the same
confessions . THEY have no heart for GOD . ONLY a heart for a god that serves them .
But those in CHRIST , do have a heart for GOD . FOR GOD has given them that HEART . Let us open bibles
and with a fully persauded mind and all hope in the LORD begin afresh and start learning and growing in the things o God .

 

[amigo de christo]

Anyone who has truly been worked on by God knows the only goodness they have , the only righteousness they now have
COMES FROM GOD in CHRIST JESUS .
They will correct and do so quickly yet they realize were it not for the mercies o GOD
they would not even have the desire to do His will , to do good . They know ,
Yet they are judged wrongfully by the many and yet they understand this is how it will be for them .
FOR If the world hated JESUS , the world and wordly will hate them . AND YET the LOVE of GOD compels
them to continue to warn , correct , and do all things for the sakes of others no matter the cost to them for doing so .
OH let all that has breath return to the lovely pages of those bibles whereby all would grow wise unto salvation through faith in Christ
and no longer be tossed to and fro by the deceptoins of men .

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yeah I'm getting that from people. the three examples are people that didn't obey the commandments and were saved because they looked to Jesus. They are exceptions from standard practices of salvation.

Basically Jesus taught a lot about the hell and who goes there. And these people were exceptions and noteworthy stories in the bible. So I think they are important passages to reflect on. To see what is different about these stories. I see humility, each confessing they are sinners and in need of Jesus.

Ah, okay! I have no idea why I couldn’t figure that out. I love those two parables so much. I’m probably going to spend all day in your thread! That’s a warning, lol.

 

[dev553344]

Kinda hard to argue against that position.

Yes, that is why I pray with heart for the salvation of my friends and family. I'm concerned about some of them being judgmental and selfish. Traits I also share with them, so I also pray for my own salvation too. I see my own hypocrisy sometimes and I realize that I am also in need of healing from that.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

He saves whom He wants to save.

Does God save people capriciously, with no basis? No.
Is there no rhyme or reason as to why God saves one person and not another? No.


God, Who cannot lie, has promised to save those who obey, Heb 5:9; 2 Thess 1:8; etc. Yet this does not fit with man made teachings as faith onlyism, hence the rich young man's obedience in keeping the law comes under attack in him being wrongly called 'self-righteous' for obeying. Yet obedience was necessary to his having eternal life. Jesus tells him "..... but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
If obedience to God's commands = self righteousness then it is self righteousness that saves...if thou wilt enter into life, be self righteous
Self righteousness would be how one loves Christ "If ye love me, keep my commandments (be self righteous).

It appears the OP of this thread is trying to find ways to get around obedience in becoming saved.

Obedience to God in the OT and NT has always been the basis of salvation and obedience to God is never in the Bible ever called self righteousness or a work of merit.

 

[dev553344]

I should have added Luke 19:1-10 which is another example of Jesus bringing salvation to someone called a sinner. Christ Abides With Zacchaeus from @WalterandDebbie's bible study. I'll add it to the OP!

 

[atpollard]

First we have the parable of the Tax Collector and Pharisee (Luke 18:9-14), where we learn that a sinner confessing to God he is a sinner with a humble heart is justified.

Confessing to God with a humble heart ... essentially just "throwing yourself on God's mercy" as your only hope ... is itself the ultimate act of FAITH.

Hebrews 11:6 [NASB20] And without faith it is impossible to please [Him,] for the one who comes to God must believe that He exists, and that He proves to be One who rewards those who seek Him.​

Second is the Parable of the Two Debtors (Luke 7:36-50) which is proceeded by the woman washing Jesus' feet with her tears. A terrible sinner that Jesus forgives or justifies with her faith and love of him.

Luke 7:43-50 [NASB20] ​

Simon answered and said, "I assume the one for whom he canceled the greater debt." And He said to him, "You have judged correctly." And turning toward the woman, He said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has wet My feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. You gave Me no kiss; but she has not stopped kissing My feet since the time I came in. You did not anoint My head with oil, but she anointed My feet with perfume. For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but the one who is forgiven little, loves little." And He said to her, "Your sins have been forgiven." And then those who were reclining at the table with Him began saying to themselves, "Who is this man who even forgives sins?" And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."​

Faith saved her (Jesus said so).
Her love, according to the parable told earlier, was the fruit of her debt having been canceled.
Once again, we see someone approach Jesus in UTTER HUMILITY (probably a friend of the Tax Collector)

Lastly the thief on the cross, punished for his sins to death and told he will be seen in paradise. (Luke 23:39-43)

Luke 23:36-43 [NASB20]​

The soldiers also ridiculed Him, coming up to Him, offering Him sour wine, and saying, "If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself!" Now there was also an inscription above Him, "THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS." One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!" But the other responded, and rebuking him, said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our crimes; but this man has done nothing wrong." And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!" And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."​

There is no innate merit in suffering for your own guilt.
However, when Christ was surrounded by the cries of mockers, one man dared to "stand" beside Him and speak the truth.
With literally nothing to offer but the testimony of his FAITH in Christ's MERCY ... the thief received it! (probably another friend of the Tax Collector)

I recently, in my study of the bible, was shown on this forum a couple verses that really helped me to accept that some sinners will be saved by faith, and others repentance and obeying the commandments in faith.

Respectfully, I see ALL salvation is humbly coming to Jesus in FAITH. Repentance and obeying commandments are the LOVE that flows from having been FORGIVEN MUCH ... maybe we are all "friends of that Tax Collector!"

 

[Lambano]

Obedience to God in the OT and NT has always been the basis of salvation and obedience to God is never in the Bible ever called self righteousness or a work of merit.

Oh, I don't know about that. You might want to check out what the Bible says about boasting in Romans 3:27, Romans 4:2, and Ephesians 2:8-9.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I recently, in my study of the bible, was shown on this forum a couple verses that really helped me to accept that some sinners will be saved by faith, and others repentance and obeying the commandments in faith.

First we have the parable of the Tax Collector and Pharisee (Luke 18:9-14), where we learn that a sinner confessing to God he is a sinner with a humble heart is justified.

Second is the Parable of the Two Debtors (Luke 7:36-50) which is proceeded by the woman washing Jesus' feet with her tears. A terrible sinner that Jesus forgives or justifies with her faith and love of him.

Lastly the thief on the cross, punished for his sins to death and told he will be seen in paradise. (Luke 23:39-43)

Anything else I left out? Feel free to discuss and add to this.

Even before the parable starts we are told something that helps us: 9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable:

We can pick our side very easily. We can see in the story who the bad man is. It trains us as to what God thinks is righteous. The scriptures are FOR training in righteousness.

So, we read it and pick a team, the same way David did when he was told a story by that holy man and picked a side and said something like, oh my gosh, that man should be cut to pieces, that despicable man!

But the holy man then says, David, you ARE that man. So David’s very reaction to the story condemned himself.

So, eventually (not at first but eventually) God gets us to see ourselves more accurately.
We start by seeing what righteousness is and being able to discern in the stories who is the righteous man and who isn’t.
But we cannot see self accurately. We cannot see that, when it comes to ourself, we will always put our thumb on the scale and use unequal weights between us and another. The heart is desperately wicked but who can see it?


We are so desperately wicked in our heart that we will even read the parable of the two sinners praying and then later pray the prayer of the first man but we ”clean it up” a little. We will say in prayer, oh Lord, help so and so to see what they are doing, they need you! But do you see, it is the same prayer the first man prayed.

Ah, so…yeah, I find I want to immediately argue and defend myself here. But I can’t. That is when I become the second man.

We always pick the right team. And we think we are on that team because WE be of the seed of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Behold]

I recently, in my study of the bible, was shown on this forum a couple verses that really helped me to accept that some sinners will be saved by faith, and others repentance and obeying the commandments in faith.

First we have the parable of the Tax Collector and Pharisee (Luke 18:9-14), where we learn that a sinner confessing to God he is a sinner with a humble heart is justified.

Second is the Parable of the Two Debtors (Luke 7:36-50) which is proceeded by the woman washing Jesus' feet with her tears. A terrible sinner that Jesus forgives or justifies with her faith and love of him.

Third is Luke 19:1-10 which is another example of Jesus bringing salvation to someone called a sinner. Christ Abides With Zacchaeus from @WalterandDebbie's bible study.

Lastly the thief on the cross, punished for his sins to death and told he will be seen in paradise. (Luke 23:39-43)

Anything else I left out? Feel free to discuss and add to this.

IN the "time of the Gentiles', God only offers Salvation based on the Cross of Christ.
So, if you are trying to save yourself with commandments and good deeds, you are actually against the Cross.
Why, because you are refusing GRACE, by trying to save yourself.

A believer who is doing this, is .."FALLEN from.....GRACE".

See that?

AFter the "time of the gentiles ends", .......the "gospel of the Grace of God" ends, and the "gospel of the kingdom" replaces it.
144,000 JEWs are preaching that one, and the reason that Christian's are not preaching it, is because they have been RAPTURED.

So, in the TRIB, you have a Gospel being preached that is a 2 part situation..

1.) you have to BELIEVE in Jesus

2.) you have to endure to the end of the Tribulation.


What is the smart thing to do?

A.) BELIEVE NOW....and be born again........and you dont have to go through the Trib and the Grt Trib.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

IMO it is all in the OP.
Scripture says that to EVERY man is given a measure of FAITH, Romans 12:1-4 ( cxt) ; and that we present our bodies a LIVING SACRAFICE, holy acceptable unto God, WHICH IS YOUR REASONABLE SERVICE. Transforming by the RENEWING of our minds that we may PROVE WHAT IS THAT GOOD,AND ACCEPTABLE,AND PERFECT, WILL OF GOD.

In FAITH Hebrews 11: 1/2 (cxt), which is the substance of things HOPED FOR, the EVIDIENCE of things NOT seen we OBEY his commandments as we seek to PLEASE him in his perfect will.

We know that  IF we refuse the gift of salvation then we are NOT in or of him. The redeemed may say so, only the redeemed !

It is ALL ! Faith given by God to believe [ now we know some do NOT use the measure of faith to believe ], is repentance by our measure of faith that we ask Him for forgiveness of sin then it is obeying his commands that we please him in his will.

We all know the 3 commands Jesus gave ; love God, love others and love your brethren ( everybody however is NOT a brethern). I do not know anyone's heart, and at times not even my own, until sin is revealed...[ anger, hatred, gossip, ect ]. It is Gods final judgment that counts.

Scripture says in a couple of places those that found great favour with God were those that PLEASED HIM.
This should be our mission by faith with a contrite heart, seeking to obey him in our obedience to his word and Spirit.

The just shall live by faith, led of the Spirit of God !!!

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Just an after thought.

Great confusion in understanding the Word of God is seen among the forums.

It is not a pick & choose situation, it is life or death !

We cannot HUNT for things that please ourselves in the scriptures to justify our self righteousness but must separate from the herd and seek his will for ourselves.
Not lightly either, not for presentation of our or another's interpretation nor so we may be accepted by man.

This is not a trip the light fandango or tip toeing through the tulips dance but must be viewed as your life sentence, LIFE OR DEATH !

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Oh, I don't know about that. You might want to check out what the Bible says about boasting in Romans 3:27, Romans 4:2, and Ephesians 2:8-9.

Obedience is nothing to boast about Lk 17:7-10.

 

[Lambano]

Obedience is nothing to boast about Lk 17:7-10.

This is true. Which is probably why Jesus told us that when, for example, we give to the poor, we should do so quietly. (Matthew 6:1-4) I suppose we should likewise be quiet about our not murdering, not stealing, not craving material things, not fooling around with that girl at work, ...

But then there's the little matter of what goes on inside our hearts.

I see this same argument over and over.

There's the question, WHY should we obey? To save ourselves? That's what I keep hearing.

I think I see a glimpse of something better.

 

[Lambano]

Devin, another set of verses along the lines of, "inasmuch as you have done this for the least of these my brothers and sisters has done it for Me" for you...

40 “He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me. 41 He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward. 42 And whoever in the name of a disciple gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water to drink, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward.” (Matthew 10:40-42)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I recently, in my study of the bible, was shown on this forum a couple verses that really helped me to accept that some sinners will be saved by faith, and others repentance and obeying the commandments in faith.

So when you say this above, the confusion I had was some saved through trust versus some saved through trust who then actually begin to obey through that trust. They are the same thing to me, just at different times. The apostle said, it is only those who trust who actually DO (begin to) obey.

In the parable, the second man, (who was previously the first man at some point), begins to actually obey and grow in righteousness. Because to see and admit the truth, God says that is to have done the right thing. He justified the one sinner and did not justify the other sinner.

A friend of mine says, “but righteousness is a moving target.” And I can see that. A parent is pleased in the beginning if their baby just eats and poops regularly. But what pleases the parent changes. The target gets moved. What previously pleased the parent changes and now what will please him is to master potty training. This shows what my friend says.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

I personally believe our faith should be transparent, what have I got to hide; God sees ALL

Scriptures tells us to know those among you who walk by the Word. In contrast it says to MARK those who walk contrary to the Word.

Everything is about our choices. Know this every choice carries a consequence also !

 

[L.A.M.B.]

So when you say this above, the confusion I had was some saved through trust versus some saved through trust who then actually begin to obey through that trust. They are the same thing to me, just at different times. The apostle said, it is only those who trust who actually DO (begin to) obey.

In the parable, the second man, (who was previously the first man at some point), begins to actually obey and grow in righteousness. Because to see and admit the truth, God says that is to have done the right thing. He justified the one sinner and did not justify the other sinner.

A friend of mine says, “but righteousness is a moving target.” And I can see that. A parent is pleased in the beginning if their baby just eats and poops regularly. But what pleases the parent changes. The target gets moved. What previously pleased the parent changes and now what will please him is to master potty training. This shows what my friend says.

I disagree with your analogy.
God DOES NOT CHANGE, NEITHER THE THINGS HE REQUIRES!

The target moves bc our focus moves. We cannot hit something we cannot see.

Only in continuing to look upon God and his word can we stay on target by the leading of his Spirit !

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Devin, another set of verses along the lines of, "inasmuch as you have done this for the least of these my brothers and sisters has done it for Me" for you...

40 “He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me. 41 He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward. 42 And whoever in the name of a disciple gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water to drink, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward.” (Matthew 10:40)

Bravo! Bravo!

A picture begins to emerge that gives us a sneaking suspicion that the doctrines lead us to a judging that we better stop doing, because there are some things that have been left out. Whole parables that have not been factored in.
at the point we begin to even vaguely see it, we sit in a stunned silence and say, we were WARNED about judging those outside and we have DONE the thing we were warned not to…we have condemned men to fire who God appears not to and have claimed a glorious outcome for ourselves, despite HEARING that we will be judged as we have judged.
But then, we are filled with such warmth and we whisper, see? I KNEW He was far more merciful than men portrayed Him to be. I KNEW it!

Another parable is the one who was thrown into prison until he paid the last farthing. What is that prison…where is it? It’s something other than either hell or the lake. What is this prison? And exactly how long will a man stay in it? Weeks? Months? Possibly a thousand years?

 

[dev553344]

I disagree with your analogy.
God DOES NOT CHANGE, NEITHER THE THINGS HE REQUIRES!

The target moves bc our focus moves. We cannot hit something we cannot see.

Only in continuing to look upon God and his word can we stay on target by the leading of his Spirit !

It's important to hear the word daily thru scripture study. And the Spirit guides me. The bible brings to remembrance the things I have already learned.