Saved by Faith vs Repentance and Obeying the Commandments

[Keiw]

I recently, in my study of the bible, was shown on this forum a couple verses that really helped me to accept that some sinners will be saved by faith, and others repentance and obeying the commandments in faith.

First we have the parable of the Tax Collector and Pharisee (Luke 18:9-14), where we learn that a sinner confessing to God he is a sinner with a humble heart is justified.

Second is the Parable of the Two Debtors (Luke 7:36-50) which is proceeded by the woman washing Jesus' feet with her tears. A terrible sinner that Jesus forgives or justifies with her faith and love of him.

Third is Luke 19:1-10 which is another example of Jesus bringing salvation to someone called a sinner. Christ Abides With Zacchaeus from @WalterandDebbie's bible study.

Lastly the thief on the cross, punished for his sins to death and told he will be seen in paradise. (Luke 23:39-43)

Anything else I left out? Feel free to discuss and add to this.

Jesus teaches-Matt 7:21-23-- The only ones being saved, no matter what they think or are told they did for Jesus are the ones living now to do Jesus' Fathers will over their own will. That will was summed up by Jesus in a single teaching--Man does not live by bread alone, but by EVERY utterance from God)-- To the best of their abilities.= OT-NT -years of study. It never stops. Then Jesus tells the ones who work iniquity( practice a sin)= Get away from me you who work iniquity, i must confess i never even knew you. That is judgement scenario.

The biggest problem i see in religions claiming to be christian= the blind guides assuring others-You are saved, thus they dont bother learning and applying every utterance as Jesus said man MUST live by them. That man does not know who is saved. Yet they believe him and their Jaws will be dropped by those words from Jesus at judgement.

 

[Gospel Believer]

Jesus teaches-Matt 7:21-23-- The only ones being saved, no matter what they think or are told they did for Jesus are the ones living now to do Jesus' Fathers will over their own will. That will was summed up by Jesus in a single teaching--Man does not live by bread alone, but by EVERY utterance from God)-- To the best of their abilities.= OT-NT -years of study. It never stops. Then Jesus tells the ones who work iniquity( practice a sin)= Get away from me you who work iniquity, i must confess i never even knew you. That is judgement scenario.

The biggest problem i see in religions claiming to be christian= the blind guides assuring others-You are saved, thus they dont bother learning and applying every utterance as Jesus said man MUST live by them. That man does not know who is saved. Yet they believe him and their Jaws will be dropped by those words from Jesus at judgement.

Indeed.....we MUST do “ the Will Of The Father”......The Bible That I Read says that the Will Of The Father is to “ Believe in the One that He sent”....... it appears that many do not believe In HIM, as they were told to do—- they believe in Themselves.....Themselves and their ability to somehow make themselves “ worthy “ of being Saved......The entire Point Of the Bible is to show you the impossibility of trying to Merit Heaven by your self- Righteous “ morality”......Confused and Lost Religious people spend their entire lives trying to be “ good enough” and trying to become “ worthy “ of eternal Life.....Personally, I know that I will Never Be Worthy —- I am * MADE* Worthy by my Faith in the Blood Of The Lamb......

 

[Keiw]

Indeed.....we MUST do “ the Will Of The Father”......The Bible That I Read says that the Will Of The Father is to “ Believe in the One that He sent”....... it appears that many do not believe In HIM, as they were told to do—- they believe in Themselves.....Themselves and their ability to somehow make themselves “ worthy “ of being Saved......The entire Point Of the Bible is to show you the impossibility of trying to Merit Heaven by your self- Righteous “ morality”......Confused and Lost Religious people spend their entire lives trying to be “ good enough” and trying to become “ worthy “ of eternal Life.....Personally, I know that I will Never Be Worthy —- I am * MADE* Worthy by my Faith in the Blood Of The Lamb......

Yet there are 4 different Jesus' being taught in the world. Only 1 is the right one. One must have faith in the right Jesus, the bible only speaks of the right Jesus, not the other 3. All living to do Jesus Fathers will strive to live as righteous as they possibly can, Gods word is clear-Only the righteous will Possess the earth( not heaven) and reside forever upon it-Psalm 37:29, Matt 5:5= the great crowd, no man can number( Rev 7:9)--Only the little flock( Luke 12:32) = the anointed, the bride of Christ, these are numbered-144,000( Rev 14:3) are promised heaven, to rule as kings and priests on thrones alongside side of Jesus( Rev 1:6, Rev 20:6)-- i hope this helps you.

 

[Gospel Believer]

Yet there are 4 different Jesus' being taught in the world. Only 1 is the right one. One must have faith in the right Jesus, the bible only speaks of the right Jesus, not the other 3. All living to do Jesus Fathers will strive to live as righteous as they possibly can, Gods word is clear-Only the righteous will Possess the earth( not heaven) and reside forever upon it-Psalm 37:29, Matt 5:5= the great crowd, no man can number( Rev 7:9)--Only the little flock( Luke 12:32) = the anointed, the bride of Christ, these are numbered-144,000( Rev 14:3) are promised heaven, to rule as kings and priests on thrones alongside side of Jesus( Rev 1:6, Rev 20:6)-- i hope this helps you.

Yes......we must be “ Righteous”, But no man can be righteous apart from having Faith in Jesus Christ to take away their Sins......All men are born sinners and all men will die Sinners, but God will declare them just as Righteous as Jesus if they simply Believe the Gospel Found In 1Cor15:1-4......For Faith in His Son , God will IMPUTE us with His Righteousness ......Just as God took the Faith Of Abraham and “ counted it unto him as Righteousness” —— He will do the same for any Believer in His Son—— “ The Righteous shall live by Faith”

 

[DJT_47]

Steps to becoming a Christian?How about trying it the BIBLE WAY? Believe that Jesus died for your Sins and rose from the dead....that Plus Nothing .....of course, that is just Paul’s way, but what did “he” know? Check out 1Cor15:1-4..... its “Paul’s Gospel” .....it was given to Paul personally by Jesus....Come Judgement Day, it is what God is going to judge you by.....you must believe it and Trust in it to the extent that you REST in it.....To Rest in it means that you do not Add to it ( think , repenting from Sins.......avoiding willful sins.....keeping the commandments.....tithing......church attendance.....living the Sermon on the mount......persevering until the end.....imitating Jesus , etc.....). Adding to it makes you “Fall From Grace “ and you become “ Severed from Christ.....God will see you as “ Disobedient “ and guilty of “ Unbelief”....... your Doctrine is important.....strive to get it right ....act like Heaven and Hell are at stake—- they are.

Your rambling words that ssy nothing, not the bible's.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I apologize for making simple what you have made so complicated.......I am Obedient to God ...I have done His Will......and what might that be, you ask? I “Believe in the One that He sent”.... Since I have done that, everything else of importance just seems to find a way of taking care of itself.....I guess that is what happens when you become a New Creation with a New Heart —— Paul said that that was “the ONLY THING” that mattered......

Nothing complicated at all about the Bible's teaching that salvation is impossible apart from obedience to God's will. The complications occur by those who try and replace obedience with belief onlyism. Trying to force belief only into the Bible is like trying to force a square peg into a round hole.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I recently, in my study of the bible, was shown on this forum a couple verses that really helped me to accept that some sinners will be saved by faith, and others repentance and obeying the commandments in faith.

First we have the parable of the Tax Collector and Pharisee (Luke 18:9-14), where we learn that a sinner confessing to God he is a sinner with a humble heart is justified.

Second is the Parable of the Two Debtors (Luke 7:36-50) which is proceeded by the woman washing Jesus' feet with her tears. A terrible sinner that Jesus forgives or justifies with her faith and love of him.

Third is Luke 19:1-10 which is another example of Jesus bringing salvation to someone called a sinner. Christ Abides With Zacchaeus from @WalterandDebbie's bible study.

Lastly the thief on the cross, punished for his sins to death and told he will be seen in paradise. (Luke 23:39-43)

Anything else I left out? Feel free to discuss and add to this.

I don't believe faith exists without repentence or without obedience And obedience is just not an automatic thing that we do perfectly from the start, it's a gradual process. Some sins we stop abruptly and are healed miraculously, but others remain. People actually try ti bargain with God in the beginning, "I'll give up this, this and that but I need to keep this, do this in my life ..." and so compromise ... until they realize you can't compromise with God.
Man goes his own way, then at some point on time, God opens his eyes and he turns to God.
I was taught repentance is turning to God _ away from darkness _ towards the Light. The gift of faith Is given to a persion while he is being drawn away from his ways and towards God. So faith cannot be void of repentence. Of course this process begins the journey of learning to be obedient, learning what sin is in your life and self discipleship, which is examining yourself and seeing the sin on our lives and stopping it, dying to ourselves. It is not easy and a quick thing to put
our ways to death _ suddenly. Yet we are to render our old selves dead.
We grow to hate sin when we see it in the world. Unfortunately we see it in others more than in oursleves, are quick to point it out. People go on procrastinating to address their own sins, (taking the plank out of their own eyes before trying to remove a speck in their neighbors eye). Their excuse may be, "God forgave me of my sins ... they are already taken care of"! Spiritually, that is true but we still have sin in our flesh and backslide into our old ways. "The spirit wars against the flesh."
I think there is a problem with perspective here. Sanctification is two-fold. Spiritually we are set apart, forgiven, born again, but then sanctification also works through our physical lives, attitudes, actions and behavior, transforming us onto the likeness of Christ. We need to cooperate with this process - to be Christians, loving and practicing obedience. Like a doctor practices medicine, he doesn't get it all right just because he was given a degree and a title. He makes mistakes, his abilities, hus expertise grows just like we grow spiritually.

 

[dev553344]

I don't believe faith exists without repentence or without obedience Amd obedience is just not an automatic thing that we do perfectly from the start, it's gradual.
Man goes his own way, then at some point on time, God opens his eyes and he turns to God.
I was taught repentance is turning to God _ away from darkness _ towards the Light. The gift of faith Is given to a persion while he is being drawn away from his ways and towards God. So faith cannot be void of repentence. Of course this process begins the journey of learning to be obedient, learning what sin is in your life and self discipleship, which is examining yourself and seeing the sin on our lives and stopping it, dying to ourselves. It is not easy and a quick thing to put
our ways to death _ suddenly. Yet we are to render our old selves dead.
We grow to hate sin when we see it in the world. Unfortunately we see it in others more than in oursleves, are quick to point it out. People go on procrastinating to address their own sins, (taking the plank out of their own eyes before trying to remove a speck in their neighbors eye). Their excuse may be, "God forgave me of my sins ... they are already taken care of"! Spiritually, that is true but we still have sin in our flesh and backslide into our old ways. "The spirit wars against the flesh."
I think there is a problem with perspective here. Sanctification is two-fold. Spiritually we are set apart, forgiven, born again, but then sanctification also works through our physical lives, attitudes, actions and behavior, transforming us onto the likeness of Christ. We need to cooperate with this process - to be Christians, loving and practicing obedience. Like a doctor practices medicine, he doesn't get it all right just because he was given a degree and a title. He makes mistakes, his abilities, hus expertise grows just like we grow spiritually.

I'm not sure of that. Faith brings miracles. And we know there are them that perform miracles and are told Jesus doesn't know them because they are lawless. So they have faith to do miracles but haven't repented.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I'm not sure of that. Faith brings miracles. And we know there are them that perform miracles and are told Jesus doesn't know them because they are lawless. So they have faith to do miracles but haven't repented.

Miracles happen because God is performing them - they cannot happen any other way. If it is good it is of God. Satan is behind dark supernatural events but I wouldn't call them miracles. The Antichrist will perform supernatural things, call fire from the sky, etc. But I wouldn't put that bin the category of faith or a miracle.
Likely the miracles you are referencing are those God performed with the Israelites!
Matt. 7:22, "Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?"

Those Israelites who lived by faith were saved. God did perform miracles and cast out demons through them. But these Jews who are saying "Lord, Lord ..." did not live by faith but are taking credit for those who did - just because they were Jews, and just because they were the chosen nation. They believed, like the Pharisees did, that all Jews would be saved by trying to keep the LAW. But they did not live by faith nor have a relationship with God/Jesus. Hence, Jesus says, "Away from Me, I do not know you" (meaning have a relationship with you.)
Besides, God performing miracles for all to see does not validate anyone's faith per se, it is just for God's glory. Unbelievers see and experience miracles ... but they don't have faith nor are accredited with faith because of a miracle performed.

 

[dev553344]

Miracles happen because God is performing them - they cannot happen any other way. If it is good it is of God. Satan is behind dark supernatural events but I wouldn't call them miracles. The Antichrist will perform supernatural things, call fire from the sky, etc. But I wouldn't put that bin the category of faith or a miracle.
Likely the miracles you are referencing are those God performed with the Israelites!
Matt. 7:22, "Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?"

Those Israelites who lived by faith were saved. God did perform miracles and cast out demons through them. But these Jews who are saying "Lord, Lord ..." did not live by faith but are taking credit for those who did - just because they were Jews, and just because they were the chosen nation. They believed, like the Pharisees did, that all Jews would be saved by trying to keep the LAW. But they did not live by faith nor have a relationship with God/Jesus. Hence, Jesus says, "Away from Me, I do not know you" (meaning have a relationship with you.)
Besides, God performing miracles for all to see does not validate anyone's faith per se, it is just for God's glory. Unbelievers see and experience miracles ... but they don't have faith nor are accredited with faith because of a miracle performed.

Thanks for the info. Perhaps your right. Don't really know.

 

[Keiw]

Yes......we must be “ Righteous”, But no man can be righteous apart from having Faith in Jesus Christ to take away their Sins......All men are born sinners and all men will die Sinners, but God will declare them just as Righteous as Jesus if they simply Believe the Gospel Found In 1Cor15:1-4......For Faith in His Son , God will IMPUTE us with His Righteousness ......Just as God took the Faith Of Abraham and “ counted it unto him as Righteousness” —— He will do the same for any Believer in His Son—— “ The Righteous shall live by Faith”

And Jesus teaches the opposite--Matt 7:21-23--Only those living ( now) to do Jesus Fathers will get to enter his kingdom( be saved)
At judgement, to any who practice a sin( work iniquity) Jesus will tell them--Get away from me you who work iniquity, i must confess i never even knew you. No matter what they think they did for Jesus.
Faith in the real Jesus. But they still must repent and turn around to get sin blotted out( Acts 3:19)

 

[Earburner]

John's baptism was not a baptism into the death of Christ and John's baptism was replaced by the baptism of the great commission per Mk 16:15-16; Matt 28:19,20 which is a baptism into the death of Christ. Therefore John's baptism is not the baptism the NT requires of us today, that being, a baptism into the death of Christ.

Though John's baptism is not the baptism the NT gospel requires into the death of Christ, John's baptism was "for the remission of sins" Mk 1:4. So those baptized with John's baptism would have had all their sins remitted when Christ died on the cross shedding His blood (Heb 9:22). But the NT requires a belief in the death and resurrection of Christ (Rom 10:9) and a baptism into the death of Christ (Rom 6) neither of which were possible for those cases cited in the OP.

Yes, most do not understand the difference in the use of the word repentance (Greek-metanoia and metanoeo). One form of the word describes repenting from sin, but the other describes repenting towards the Lord, having a change in mind. One is about salvation, the other is not.

 

[farouk]

I am sorry I have to speak in specifics as to children.
 ANY denomination or teacher, preacher ect that's teachings make one feel good about themselves and DOES NOT make you want to climb higher is against God.

That can be done by tv, internet, books, studies, commentaries, colleges, church & denom hoping. This causes confusion & chaos.

We are to be steadfast in our faith of God not of selves.
The Word of God specifically states where we go wrong, how to get back to rightness, and how to hold onto all we receive from God.

@L3astAm0ngManyB13ss3d 1Corinthians 15:58 is all about steadfastness..........with a sound doctrinal basis in Christ..........

 

[Gospel Believer]

Yes, most do not understand the difference in the use of the word repentance (Greek-metanoia and metanoeo). One form of the word describes repenting from sin, but the other describes repenting towards the Lord, having a change in mind. One is about salvation, the other is not.

So which is which .....what type of Repentance is Mandatory for Salvation?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I recently, in my study of the bible, was shown on this forum a couple verses that really helped me to accept that some sinners will be saved by faith, and others repentance and obeying the commandments in faith.

First we have the parable of the Tax Collector and Pharisee (Luke 18:9-14), where we learn that a sinner confessing to God he is a sinner with a humble heart is justified.

Second is the Parable of the Two Debtors (Luke 7:36-50) which is proceeded by the woman washing Jesus' feet with her tears. A terrible sinner that Jesus forgives or justifies with her faith and love of him.

Third is Luke 19:1-10 which is another example of Jesus bringing salvation to someone called a sinner. Christ Abides With Zacchaeus from @WalterandDebbie's bible study.

Lastly the thief on the cross, punished for his sins to death and told he will be seen in paradise. (Luke 23:39-43)

Anything else I left out? Feel free to discuss and add to this.

God wants us to be perfect as Jesus commanded us to be, but it takes many steps and levels of obedience. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the spoken word to you by God. Hearing is merely the first step towards faith. Hearing about Jesus is what brings us to repentance, and repentance allows us to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit without which we don't belong to Christ. We MUST become born again of the Spirit and that is after faith. Look what Peter says if you miss the following steps of maturing in the Spirit.

2 Peter 1:5-11
5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

So which is which .....what type of Repentance is Mandatory for Salvation?

It is not repentance for one sin, but repentance for our recognition that we are slaves to sin and can never be like Christ on our own. We MUST be born again of the Holy Spirit. That true desire to become like Christ, and not merely using Christ as a ticket to heaven, is true repentance. The second is selfish and has nothing to do with loving Christ at all, but just yourself and fear of hell.

 

[farouk]

It is not repentance for one sin, but repentance for our recognition that we are slaves to sin and can never be like Christ on our own. We MUST be born again of the Holy Spirit. That true desire to become like Christ, and not merely using Christ as a ticket to heaven, is true repentance. The second is selfish and has nothing to do with loving Christ at all, but just yourself and fear of hell.

Hi @1stCenturyLady John 3 about the new birth is a marvellous passage.

Paul speaks in Romans about 'obedience to the faith' and 'the obedience of faith': it's not meritorious, but rather it's the outworking of the new birth by the Spirit indwelling us, as we follow the Lord.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Hi @1stCenturyLady John 3 about the new birth is a marvellous passage.

Paul speaks in Romans about 'obedience to the faith' and 'the obedience of faith': it's not meritorious, but rather it's the outworking of the new birth by the Spirit indwelling us, as we follow the Lord.

Yes, farouk, we cannot save ourselves like the Old Testament saints did through loving God and obedience to Him as Noah did, and then after the Ten Commandments were given. That was all they had, and their obedience was imputed to them as righteousness until Jesus came and cleansed all those sins that God had previously overlooked, allowing them to be raised with Christ at His resurrection. We must see the difference between Romans 3, 4 and 5 which is Old Testament, and chapter 6 and 8 which is how the New Covenant works. But there are whole denominations that live on the old "imputed" righteousness, instead of the Holy Spirit. In fact, many don't even talk about the Spirit because they cannot relate to Him. They also twist a doctrine that says that obedience somehow doesn't have anything to do with faith, so all they can do is talk the talk, but find no relevance to walking the walk. Only those who have been born again and then keep themselves, purifying themselves will succeed in the Christian walk, 1 John 3:3 and 1 John 5:18 - purify ourselves and keeping ourselves. That is done by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit and never quenching Him with the common false doctrines that have infiltrated the Church, and because of your use of the word "meritorious" which applied to the Old Testament, you have become mistaken in your responsibility now too. Study Romans 6-8. Remember that Romans 7:14-25 is about those who ONLY HAD the Ten Commandments, but NOT the Spirit of Christ who takes away the desire to sin. In Romans 7 start at verse 5 - Romans 8:2.

Therefore Romans 7: does NOT apply to a Christian who is dead to sin.

Romans 7:20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

Sin does not dwell in a Christian, farouk. That is the carnal nature that Paul calls "the flesh."

Romans 8:8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.