Saved by Faith vs Repentance and Obeying the Commandments

[dev553344]

I recently, in my study of the bible, was shown on this forum a couple verses that really helped me to accept that some sinners will be saved by faith, and others repentance and obeying the commandments in faith.

First we have the parable of the Tax Collector and Pharisee (Luke 18:9-14), where we learn that a sinner confessing to God he is a sinner with a humble heart is justified.

Second is the Parable of the Two Debtors (Luke 7:36-50) which is proceeded by the woman washing Jesus' feet with her tears. A terrible sinner that Jesus forgives or justifies with her faith and love of him.

Third is Luke 19:1-10 which is another example of Jesus bringing salvation to someone called a sinner. Christ Abides With Zacchaeus from @WalterandDebbie's bible study.

Lastly the thief on the cross, punished for his sins to death and told he will be seen in paradise. (Luke 23:39-43)

Anything else I left out? Feel free to discuss and add to this.

 

[dev553344]

We know the bible is full of verses that command us to obey the laws of God including the sheep and goats scriptures. And I think we should obey the commandments and encourage others to as well. And many of these verses condemn the lawless. But I would like to know if there is more to the salvation of those that have trouble obeying the commandments.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hi,

The examples cited occurred while the OT law of Moses was still in effect, hence they cannot examples of NT gospel salvation for they occurred before the NT gospel of Christ came into effect, (Heb 9:15-17). NT gospel salvation requires one to believe (Jn 3:16) repent (Lk 13:3) confess (Matt 10:32-33) be baptized (Mk 16:15-16) to be saved. Specifically, the NT commands one to believe that God hath raised (past tense) Christ from the dead (Rom 10:9-10) and that one be baptized into the death of Christ in order to be forgiven of sins and to walk in newness of life (Rom 6:3-7; Acts 2:38) both being impossible while Christ was still alive and the OT law of Moses was still in effect per the examples cited.

 

[dev553344]

Hi,

The examples cited occurred while the OT law of Moses was still in effect, hence they cannot examples of NT gospel salvation for they occurred before the NT gospel of Christ came into effect, (Heb 9:15-17). NT gospel salvation requires one to believe (Jn 3:16) repent (Lk 13:3) confess (Matt 10:32-33) be baptized (Mk 16:15-16) to be saved. Specifically, the NT commands one to believe that God hath raised (past tense) Christ from the dead (Rom 10:9-10) and that one be baptized into the death of Christ in order to be forgiven of sins and to walk in newness of life (Rom 6:3-7; Acts 2:38). Neither of which is possible while Christ was still alive and the OT law of Moses was still in effect per the examples cited.

If the OT laws were still in effect each of the examples would have been damned to hell right?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

If the OT laws were still in effect each of the examples would have been damned to hell right?

No, people will be judged by the law under which they lived.

 

[dev553344]

No, people will be judged by the law under which they lived.

Can you cite scripture that says that?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I recently, in my study of the bible, was shown on this forum a couple verses that really helped me to accept that some sinners will be saved by faith, and others repentance and obeying the commandments in faith.

All of us today are under the NT gospel of Christ and all saved under the NT gospel will be saved the same exact way thru belief repentance confession and baptism.

 

[dev553344]

I'm going to have to disagree with you since it was Jesus that claimed the three examples were saved and one followed him after Jesus death. Jesus proclaimed the new testament and new covenant while he was alive during the three examples I cited. And John was baptizing before Jesus death. In other words Jesus already changed it before the three examples took place.

 

[Wrangler]

Anything else I left out? Feel free to discuss and add to this.

I was saved by Prevenient Grace.

THE moment of truth for me was the choice to OBEY the prompting of God's Holy Spirit, to tell a saint doing missionary work in Haiti to delay his trip. There is one thing I'd like the world to know about this.

Although people think obeying is subjugation and rules restrictive, I found it the Supreme Honor of my life to convey this message at God's urging.

I know I had the power to shun him and I shutter how my life would have devolved had I not acted righteously in faith in that moment of truth.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Can you cite scripture that says that?

Those that lived under the OT law will be judged by that law as those of us today who live under the NT gospel will be judged by that NT law. Christ took the OT law out of the way replacing it with His NT (Eph 2:14-16) therefore there was a change of law (Heb 7:12). How can someone be judged by a law they do not live under? As an American citizen I am judged by American laws I live under not by Chinese laws I do not live under.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

All of us today are under the NT gospel of Christ and all saved under the NT gospel will be saved the same exact way thru belief repentance confession and baptism.

Amen !
That is the ONLY formula for salvation.

First we must HEAR the Word whether in word for word, paraphrase, an inanimate object or many ways ect ect.
Then we must BELIEVE the Word we hear as God's truth.
The Holy Spirit of God will then begin to convict or chastise us to get us to respond in faith to that which we have heard.
By REPENTANCE; a godly sorrow for the filth and sin in our lives and how unworthy we are for him to love is stirred within us.
We then CONFESS with our mouth the helplessness of our lives without God.

Then we are partakers with Christ in God under the new covenant of grace. We begin to search the scriptures with joy & hunger desiring to find his will for our life. We pray and submit all unto him that we continue in his righteousness. THIS IS THE BEGINNING OF SANCTIFICATION IN OUR DISCIPLESHIP !

 

[Charlie24]

I'm going to have to disagree with you since it was Jesus that claimed the three examples were saved and one followed him after Jesus death.

Those who were saved under the Law, when you cut to the bottom line, were saved or lost by being honest with themselves, or not!

For example, the rich young ruler asked Christ what must I do to inherit eternal life? Jesus replied, keep the commandments. Then the young man told a lie, he said that he had kept the law from his youth and up.

If the young man had been honest with himself instead of being self-righteous, he would have seen that he had not keep the Law. But those who were honest as the man in the temple who cried out, "God be merciful to me a sinner" they placed faith in the coming Messiah, and not their ability to keep the Law.

Christ stood in front of a large crowd of Jews and said, "did not Moses give you the Law, and none of you have kept it."

Paul told us that the Law was to "point to Christ." They were to be honest and admit they were not keeping the Law. This is where the Sacrificial System came into effect. They were to place their faith in the blood of the sacrifice of the animal, which represented Christ. But this could only happen if they were honest with themselves, admitting they were sinners in need of a Savior, which most would not do in their self-righteousness.

This is the reason they put Christ to death! They didn't need a Savior of the soul, they needed a Savior to release them from the bondage of the Romans. The Jews believed they were saved by the mere fact they were of the natural seed of Abraham their father. They didn't want or need the Suffering Lamb, so they thought.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I'm going to have to disagree with you since it was Jesus that claimed the three examples were saved and one followed him after Jesus death. Jesus proclaimed the new testament and new covenant while he was alive during the three examples I cited. And John was baptizing before Jesus death.

---Heb 9:16-17 makes it clear about lasts wills and testaments. A testament is only in force AFTER men are dead, not before. Hence it was impossible for Christ's NT to be in effect while He was still alive. I have a last will and testament but it will not be in effect until some point after I die. Since Christ was still alive in the cases cited in the OP, then those in the OP CANNOT be examples of NT gospel salvation that requires belief in a resurrected Christ (Rom 10:9) and being baptized into Christ's death (Rom 6)

---the NT does not teach men will be saved in different ways some by faith only some by obedience. All under the NT will be saved in a "like manner" way (Acts 15:11) which is thru belief repentance confession and baptism. There is one faith (Eph 4:4-5) that teaches one means of salvation, not many faithS that teach many contradicting ways to be saved.

---also consider as in the case with the thief and woman of Lk 7, we know when Christ was alive and "on earth" during His personal earthly ministry He had been given power/authority to forgive sins of those whom He tho't was deserving (Matt 9:6) as the thief. Christ left earth some 2000 years ago leaving behind His NT as His authority and that NT requires all under be saved in the same way thru belief, repentance confession and baptism. Hence no one today can claim to be saved as the thief for no one today can go back in time 2000 years to when Christ was "on earth" forgiving sins.

Furthermore in the case with the publican and the Pharisee. Salvation in the Bible has to do with being in a covenant relationship with God. Both these men had gone to the temple to pray indicating they were Jews living under the OT law. For Jews living under the law, all it took to be in an OT covenant relationship with God was a physical birth into a family with direct ties back to Abraham. But under the NT gospel we live under today salvation is not by physical birth/descent but by a spiritual rebirth, being born again of water and of the Spirit to put one into a NT covenant relationship with God.

 

[amigo de christo]

Amen !
That is the ONLY formula for salvation.

First we must HEAR the Word whether in word for word, paraphrase, an inanimate object or many ways ect ect.
Then we must BELIEVE the Word we hear as God's truth.
The Holy Spirit of God will then begin to convict or chastise us to get us to respond in faith to that which we have heard.
By REPENTANCE; a godly sorrow for the filth and sin in our lives and how unworthy we are for him to love is stirred within us.
We then CONFESS with our mouth the helplessness of our lives without God.

Then we are partakers with Christ in God under the new covenant of grace. We begin to search the scriptures with joy & hunger desiring to find his will for our life. We pray and submit all unto him that we continue in his righteousness. THIS IS THE BEGINNING OF SANCTIFICATION IN OUR DISCIPLESHIP !

Thats right sister lamb . WE POINT TO JESUS CHRIST as the only and absolutely only way to be saved . LIFT THOSE HANDS AND PRAISE THE KING .

 

[amigo de christo]

Amen !
That is the ONLY formula for salvation.

First we must HEAR the Word whether in word for word, paraphrase, an inanimate object or many ways ect ect.
Then we must BELIEVE the Word we hear as God's truth.
The Holy Spirit of God will then begin to convict or chastise us to get us to respond in faith to that which we have heard.
By REPENTANCE; a godly sorrow for the filth and sin in our lives and how unworthy we are for him to love is stirred within us.
We then CONFESS with our mouth the helplessness of our lives without God.

Then we are partakers with Christ in God under the new covenant of grace. We begin to search the scriptures with joy & hunger desiring to find his will for our life. We pray and submit all unto him that we continue in his righteousness. THIS IS THE BEGINNING OF SANCTIFICATION IN OUR DISCIPLESHIP !

Point to Christ to that last and final breath dear sister . IN HE ALONE is our salvation . Praise be to HIS GLORIOUS NAME . ALL else is vain
Even cornelious was very pious and did much good . YET he had to send for peter to hear words whereby he and his house could be saved .
A PRIME EXAMPLE that ONLY FAITH IN JESUS IS GONNA SAVE A SOUL . POINT to CHRIST SISTER . DO SO to the very last breath .

 

[dev553344]

Those who were saved under the Law, when you cut to the bottom line, were saved or lost by being honest with themselves, or not!

For example, the rich young ruler asked Christ what must I do to inherit eternal life? Jesus replied, keep the commandments. Then the young man told a lie, he said that he had kept the law from his youth and up.

If the young man had been honest with himself instead of being self-righteous, he would have seen that he had not keep the Law. But those who were honest as the man in the temple who cried out, "God be merciful to me a sinner" they placed faith in the coming Messiah, and not their ability to keep the Law.

Christ stood in front of a large crowd of Jews and said, "did not Moses give you the Law, and none of you have kept it."

Paul told us that the Law was to "point to Christ." They were to be honest and admit they were not keeping the Law. This is where the Sacrificial System came into effect. They were to place their faith in the blood of the sacrifice of the animal, which represented Christ. But this could only happen if they were honest with themselves, admitting they were sinners in need of a Savior, which most would not do in their self-righteousness.

This is the reason they put Christ to death! They didn't need a Savior of the soul, they needed a Savior to release them from the bondage of the Romans. The Jews believed they were saved by the mere fact they were of the natural seed of Abraham their father. They didn't want or need the Suffering Lamb, so they thought.

This is correct, the old law and the new law condemns. Jesus saves us from the law which no man has obeyed from his birth except Jesus. The "Royal Law" is love God and love neighbor which are what the old laws are established upon.

Jesus established the new testament and new covenant while alive which makes it in effect as even he stated while he was alive. So the three examples I stated in the OP are valid. John baptised people into the new covenant during Jesus' ministry.

 

[amigo de christo]

CHOOSE YE THIS DAY whom ye shall serve . THE WORDS of CHRIST shall be the judge of all men on the last day .
THEY WILL BE LIFE TO THOSE WHO EMBRACED HIM , but a death sentence to those who denied HIM . THAT IS A FACT .
SO while there is time we better be pointing to CHRIST and it had better be the BIBILICAL ONE TOO , cause any other jesus aint gonna save .

 

[dev553344]

---Heb 9:16-17 makes it clear about lasts wills and testaments. A testament is only in force AFTER men are dead, not before. Hence it was impossible for Christ's NT to be in effect while He was still alive. I have a last will and testament but it will not be in effect until some point after I die. Since Christ was still alive in the cases cited in the OP, then those in the OP CANNOT be examples of NT gospel salvation that requires belief in a resurrected Christ (Rom 10:9) and being baptized into Christ's death (Rom 6)

---the NT does not teach men will be saved in different ways some by faith only some by obedience. All under the NT will be saved in a "like manner" way (Acts 15:11) which is thru belief repentance confession and baptism. There is one faith (Eph 4:4-5) that teaches one means of salvation, not many faithS that teach many contradicting ways to be saved.

---also consider as in the case with the thief and woman of Lk 7, we know when Christ was alive and "on earth" during His personal earthly ministry He had been given power/authority to forgive sins of those whom He tho't was deserving (Matt 9:6) as the thief. Christ left earth some 2000 years ago leaving behind His NT as His authority and that NT requires all under be saved in the same way thru belief, repentance confession and baptism. Hence no one today can claim to be saved as the thief for no one today can go back in time 2000 years to when Christ was "on earth" forgiving sins.

Furthermore in the case with the publican and the Pharisee. Salvation in the Bible has to do with being in a covenant relationship with God. Both these men had gone to the temple to pray indicating they were Jews living under the OT law. For Jews living under the law, all it took to be in an OT covenant relationship with God was a physical birth into a family with direct ties back to Abraham. But under the NT gospel we live under today salvation is not by physical birth/descent but by a spiritual rebirth, being born again of water and of the Spirit to put one into a NT covenant relationship with God.

Heb 9:16-17 speaks of the death of Jesus. We are baptized into his death. John was baptizing before his death. Think about it. Jesus was also baptized to fullfill all righeousness. Wouldn't he be under the old law under your ideas?

Jesus also preached to the spirits in prison when he went to hell. They died in Noah's flood. Why preach to them if it wasn't to save them via the new testament. Why waist his time then?

 

[dev553344]

@Ernest T. Bass , question... read Romans 6:4-6:​

​

4 When we were baptized into his death, we were placed into the tomb with him. As Christ was brought back from death to life by the glorious power of the Father, so we, too, should live a new kind of life. 5 If we’ve become united with him in a death like his, certainly we will also be united with him when we come back to life as he did. 6 We know that the person we used to be was crucified with him to put an end to sin in our bodies. Because of this we are no longer slaves to sin.​

​

So is everyone John Baptized had no effect in your view.​

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

This is correct,

No, it's not correct. If we go back and look at the context in Matt 19 and Mark 10, nowhere does it say the rich young man lied to Christ or that Christ accused him of lying or condemned him for blatantly lying to Christ's face nor was he accused of "self-righteous" works.

The man asked Christ "what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?"
Christ did NOT tell him to do nothing but have faith only but said "Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother."

Jesus was telling him to keep God's commands to which the man replied "Master, all these have I observed from my youth."

AGAIN, Jesus did not reply by calling him a lair or condemning him for lying, but upon hearing that the man kept the commands the context says Jesus "loved him". Jesus loved him because he kept God's commands thereby making this young man an example of one of high morals and integrity. Jesus would not have loved him for lying.

Jesus then says "One thing thou lackest". The logical implication of this is that keeping God's commands is part of inheriting eternal life. Therefore had he not been keeping God's commands, that is, had he been disobeying God's commands he would have been lacking in more areas than just one.