The Impassable Great Gulf in Hell: No legs to walk with

[Phoneman777]

As with the created christ believers, you rely too much on scholarship of man, and not enough on Scripture of God.

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Once again. Scripture tells the plain truth, and no amount of word-definition can change it, because then you have to show how tormented souls is not really torment.

Oh, right, as if you have mastered Greek and Hebrew and don't rely on experts, right? Don't be a hypocrite. The man is considered one of the greatest Greek scholars of our time and his books line the shelves of seminaries and Bible colleges, you can be sure of that. I even heard a Sunday preacher on the radio today quote from Weymouth's translation, a certain Rusty Tardo during his "Faithful Word Assembly" broadcast on 800 AM.

The man knows what he's talking about and he says that anyone like you who insists that the Greek words for "destroy" and "destruction" and "death" and "perish" as used to describe what happens to a Soul are to be understood to mean "maintain an everlasting but wretched existence" does WORSE than translate "black" as "white".

Understand? When you claim "the soul that sinneth shall die" means "shall eternally exist in seperation from God", Dr. Weymouth says you need to put down the Bible, resign your "Bible teacher" position, and go take some classes in Greek so that you can cease from preaching false ideas about Eternal Torment.

 

[robert derrick]

You see? I told you there's not one passage that contains the words "immortal soul" or "eternal soul" or "never dying soul to save" like in Wesley's hymn...THE TEACHING WAS DRAGGED FROM PAGANISM INTO THE CHURCH BY ROME.

"His soul was not left in hell" means "Jesus wasn't left in the tomb" because "soul" not only refers to "life" but refers to the "I", the "ego", the "self", the "whole person".

Did you ever read Genesis 2:7 KJV where is says the Soul comes into existence only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, which just stands to reason that the Soul cannot exist on moment after this union is dissolved and the Body returns to the Earth and the Spirit to God just as it was when It was sent forth?

Once plain Scripture is rejected, then not only must many other Scriptures be corrupted, but also grammar in any language.

As noted before, you not only corrupt Scripture, but you also corrupt pagan Greek spiritual theology, with difference between the tomb for the dead body and hades for the departed soul.

Not only do Christians reject your naturalized theology, but pagan Greeks would be offended at your natural man's rejection of the gods.

His soul was not left in hell means, His soul was not left in hell.

His prophecy of going to the heart of the earth, means His soul went to hell in the heart of the earth, not in a rocky tomb.

Once a soul begins to purposely make the truth of Scripture into a lie, then not only is the soul dead to Christ, but the light of Christ. that lightens every man coming into he world, goes out, and sensible intelligence is lost.

 

[robert derrick]

Oh, right, as if you have mastered Greek and Hebrew and don't rely on experts, right? Don't be a hypocrite. The man is considered one of the greatest Greek scholars of our time and his books line the shelves of seminaries and Bible colleges, you can be sure of that. I even heard a Sunday preacher on the radio today quote from Weymouth's translation, a certain Rusty Tardo during his "Faithful Word Assembly" broadcast on 800 AM.

The man knows what he's talking about and he says that anyone like you who insists that the Greek words for "destroy" and "destruction" and "death" and "perish" as used to describe what happens to a Soul are to be understood to mean "maintain an everlasting but wretched existence" does WORSE than translate "black" as "white".

He must be one of those great Greeks, that says the word was a god.

The man knows what he's talking about and he says that anyone like you who insists that the Greek words for "destroy" and "destruction" and "death" and "perish" as used to describe what happens to a Soul are to be understood to mean "maintain an everlasting but wretched existence" does WORSE than translate "black" as "white".

Oh yeah. He, The Man.

This is theological gnosticism, where learned natural knowledge of men is used to interpret scripture from their own minds. They insert their own natural thinking into Scripture, to come up with their own traditions, rather than believe simple true doctrine of Christ.

Scripture does not rely on how men define their words, but rather on how God uses them to reveal His truth: it doesn't matter how Hebrews define soul, nor how Greeks define spirit, but how God uses them to show the truth.

Ex: intellectual men love to debate over definitions of words endlessly, rather than see how God uses them, to know the truth about them:

And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Defining what the word apolluw meant to a pagan Hellene, is not necessary, since Scripture uses their word, to reveal the truth of a king of destruction and perishing, who has spiritual rule over them perishing in the bottomless pit.

In Scripture of God, them being destroyed and perishing, cannot be uncreated oblivion and non-existence, since there is a destroyer king over them being destroyed: where there is nothing, there is no thing nor them. But where there is a king over them, there can be no nothing nor none of them.

This is simple reasoning of what is written, that needs no scholarship in the language arts.

And the great Greek scholars will therefore have to change their word definition of apolluwn to fit with revealed Scriptural truth, or just reject it and make another parable out of it.

But in this case, it would be a meaningless waste of Scripture, since a parable about nothingness would be nothing at all.

God has already written all Scripture, with readiness to take the crafty int heir own craftiness. To continue at this point, to insist destruction in Scripture means uncreated nothingness, is to descend into meaningless psycho-babble of a false tradition.

And this is exactly what happens, when men set their hearts and minds to turn the truth of God into a lie, so that the common faith and light of Christ, that Christ lightens every man with coming into the world, becomes dead and senselessly blind to the truth: Simple intelligence is replaced by sophistic intellectualism.

But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Understand? When you claim "the soul that sinneth shall die" means "shall eternally exist in seperation from God",

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

 

[robert derrick]

Understand? When you claim "the soul that sinneth shall die" means "shall eternally exist in seperation from God", Dr. Weymouth says you need to put down the Bible, resign your "Bible teacher" position, and go take some classes in Greek so that you can cease from preaching false ideas about Eternal Torment.

True. We do need to put away the Bible, in order to learn how not to believe in eternal torment, because it is the Bible where eternal torment is found:

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

This is a perfect example of how the unbelieving scholarly Jews of old, are emulated among great scholarly Christians today: They want the believers to stop reading from Scripture itself, and come to their schools first. Then all Christians young and old, can be naturally trained into believing what the experts want to believe about Scripture.

And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?

This is the hubris of theological men of natural learning only. They don't want ignorant schlubs to be like the Bereans, and search the Scriptures for ourselves in our own language, because men of great learning have already gone over them for us. And they would just love to show how bright they are, and what they have magically found, that no child would ever learn from just reading the Bible as written.

Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

This Scripture has two meanings: All must come to Christ as little children, without prelearned traditions by scholarly insight, and Scripture is written so plainly, that any normally learned child can read and understand it for themselves.

Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech.

Scripture is written so plainly, that the scholarly wise of the world mock it, and then hate it, when God says something they do not want to hear.

The fact is that the God of Israel and of glory, has His word written plainly in every language of man on earth, for the express purpose of not requiring children and men to become language experts, in order to know the simple first principles of the doctrine of Christ.

Which begins with the spiritual immortality of angels and souls of men, so that we have power to choose evil, rather than loving God. And that we must love God from the heart, to have everlasting life with Him in resurrected bodies, rather than having everlasting shame and torment by instead loving to make a lie and do evil:

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Once again, these Scriptures plainly speak of those that will forever be in contempt with Christ, and they will forever be shut out of the gates of New Jerusalem.

The only way for them to cease to exist outside of those gates, is if those gates cease to exist. Therefore, so long as those gates exist, so do them outside in darkness of blackness forever.

 

[DJT_47]

The great gulf may not be in hell when you consider the pertinent locations of it and it's counterpart. Hell assumed to be within the earth, but paradise, which is also the 3rd Heaven, is in a heavenly location. So, the great gulf may be between mid earth to some heavenly realm transitioning space.

 

[Phoneman777]

Once plain Scripture is rejected, then not only must many other Scriptures be corrupted, but also grammar in any language.

Yes, those who think "destroy" and "destruction" of soul and that a soul shall "pass away" and "soul that sinneth, it shall die" and "save a soul from death" refer to "maintaining an everlasting but wretched existence" absolutely reject grammar and language, as our friend Dr. Weymouth points out saying that "to translate black as white is nothing to this"....because they've first rejected the Scriptures.

As noted before, you not only corrupt Scripture, but you also corrupt pagan Greek spiritual theology, with difference between the tomb for the dead body and hades for the departed soul.

As long as you rely on the "truth" of satanic Greek theology, you will never rise above compounded delusion. Pagan errors are never the test of Biblical truth.

Not only do Christians reject your naturalized theology, but pagan Greeks would be offended at your natural man's rejection of the gods.

I consider offending pagan Greek gods a badge of honor, as any Christian would - shouldn't you? Perhaps this is the reason you wrongly characterize as "natural" my theology? Because of your affinity for pagan, satanic Greek ideas?

His soul was not left in hell means, His soul was not left in hell.

You have a problem: the "hell" in which Jesus was not left is not the fiery, burning, blazing "gehenna" but means "underworld" or "place of the dead" and that's why "hades" is at times translated "grave" - because dead people are put "under" the earth in a "grave" and when loved ones want to visit them, they go to the "place of the dead" which is a "graveyard".

Did you ever read in Revelation where "death and hades" are cast into Fire Lake? Really? Fire is cast into fire? No! It means "the grave" is going to come to an end as surely as the wicked because "there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there by any more pain".

Therefore Peter's words, "His soul was not left in hell" means "His life was not left ended in the grave".

His prophecy of going to the heart of the earth, means His soul went to hell in the heart of the earth, not in a rocky tomb. Once a soul begins to purposely make the truth of Scripture into a lie, then not only is the soul dead to Christ, but the light of Christ. that lightens every man coming into he world, goes out, and sensible intelligence is lost.

Any scholar worth his salt knows we must compare Jonah's experience to Jesus because Jesus Himself said the one was a sign of the other. Jonah says he was 3 days in "sheol" translated many times "grave" and that "the earth with her bars was about me forever". Was he in some fiery, burning, blazing chamber in the middle of the Earth?

No!

"Heart of the Earth" and "the Earth with her bars was about me forever...in sheol" refer to the same thing: dead in the grave, not some fiery, burning, blazing chamber 10,000 miles down to the Earth's core. When will you learn that the fires of hell are not yet burning, according to 2 Peter 3:9 KJV:

 

[Phoneman777]

He must be one of those great Greeks, that says the word was a god.

Look, it's not necessary to be spirit filled to know the difference between dookey and Dapper Dan - just an adequate degree of common sense.

Oh yeah. He, The Man. This is theological gnosticism, where learned natural knowledge of men is used to interpret scripture from their own minds. They insert their own natural thinking into Scripture, to come up with their own traditions, rather than believe simple true doctrine of Christ. Scripture does not rely on how men define their words, but rather on how God uses them to reveal His truth: it doesn't matter how Hebrews define soul, nor how Greeks define spirit, but how God uses them to show the truth. Ex: intellectual men love to debate over definitions of words endlessly, rather than see how God uses them, to know the truth about them:

Your constant insistence that everyone who disagrees with you is "natural minded" and by implication "not filled with the spirit" is getting ridiculous. How anyone hasn't reported you yet is beyond me.

And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. Defining what the word apolluw meant to a pagan Hellene, is not necessary, since Scripture uses their word, to reveal the truth of a king of destruction and perishing, who has spiritual rule over them perishing in the bottomless pit. In Scripture of God, them being destroyed and perishing, cannot be uncreated oblivion and non-existence, since there is a destroyer king over them being destroyed: where there is nothing, there is no thing nor them. But where there is a king over them, there can be no nothing nor none of them. This is simple reasoning of what is written, that needs no scholarship in the language arts. But in this case, it would be a meaningless waste of Scripture, since a parable about nothingness would be nothing at all.

Simply reasoning? I've never read such convoluted nonsense. What is the point you're trying to make? That a symbolic prophecy taken from the most symbolic book of Scripture requires no interpretation? Speak English, friend!

And the great Greek scholars will therefore have to change their word definition of apolluwn to fit with revealed Scriptural truth, or just reject it and make another parable out of it. God has already written all Scripture, with readiness to take the crafty int heir own craftiness. To continue at this point, to insist destruction in Scripture means uncreated nothingness, is to descend into meaningless psycho-babble of a false tradition. And this is exactly what happens, when men set their hearts and minds to turn the truth of God into a lie, so that the common faith and light of Christ, that Christ lightens every man with coming into the world, becomes dead and senselessly blind to the truth: Simple intelligence is replaced by sophistic intellectualism. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

What does any of this have to do with one of the greatest Greek scholars of the Greek language exposing your theology as fraudulent by pointing out that the strongest Greek words the Greek tongue possesses to signify annihilation are reinterpreted to mean "maintaining an everlasting but wretched existence"?

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Yes, the wicked will be "punished from the presence of the Lord" in the judgment, but there isn't a single verse that supports your false idea that "sinners will eternally exist apart from God" - that's a made up, subjective idea that finds zero Biblical support. Why?

Because the wicked suffer "everlasting destruction" aka "annihilation". Got it? They suffer everlasting destruction in Fire Lake. Wicked souls will suffer according to their sins, after which the Spirit will leave their body and return to God, their bodies shall turn to ash upon which we will tread, and these wicked souls - which exist only as a consequence of the union of the both and the breath of life - will pass out of existence.

 

[robert derrick]

You have a problem: the "hell" in which Jesus was not left is not the fiery, burning, blazing "gehenna" but means "underworld" or "place of the dead" and that's why "hades" is at times translated "grave" - because dead people are put "under" the earth in a "grave" and when loved ones want to visit them, they go to the "place of the dead" which is a "graveyard".

Therefore Peter's words, "His soul was not left in hell" means "His life was not left ended in the grave".

As I said, you corrupt Greek language in order to corrupt Scripture: Hades began as a spiritual term for the god Hades in Hellenistic paganism, where all the dead souls of men went for eternity under the rule of Hades. This is why Homer can record Odysseus speaking with the shaded soul of Achilles.

The earliest Achaeans had no graves, but practiced cremation of dead bodies, like the Romans. Their dead bodies were burned for the specific purpose of ensuring their souls went to Hades, with coins in the eyes for the Ferryman. If not, the body was left for the fowls of the air, and the soul was trapped wandering upon the earth.

The point being of course, that hades was a theologically spiritual place, not the dirt of the earth for corpses.

Later, with the increasing habit of burials and tombs, they were named mnemos memorials.

Since all Scripture is doctrinal in nature, then Hades is used for hell with souls, and only mnemos is used for graves and tombs of the dead bodies.

I don't mind you corrupting Hellenistic culture, as well as Scriptural doctrine, because it gives me a chance to bone up on old ancient studies of mine. However, I've already corrected you once in this, so I'll not be bothering to do so again.

Did you ever read in Revelation where "death and hades" are cast into Fire Lake? Really? Fire is cast into fire?

More carnal mindedness rejecting spiritual truth, because it makes no sense to the natural man.

However, since this is all about actively opposing the truth of Scripture, then the sense of any natural minded man is also lost:

A firebrand thrown into a larger fire to expand it's destruction, is common in any campfire, and was especially done in ancient times of war, to lay waste defeated cities. The allies used it in WW2 against the industrial cities of Germany, which was a firestorm strategy.

As we have seen, it's not necessary to prove doctrine of Scripture by word definitions, but to clear the air, apolluw simply meant to destroy and lay utterly waste. Some would even sow the city with salt, for nothing to grow again.

Whether it be mountains worn to dust by nature, or cities utterly destroyed by man, the elements remain, while the structures were destroyed: creation can be obliterated, but not to oblivion.

God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, with their wastedness in smoke remaining for witness of the judgment of the Lord upon the wicked.

In like manner, the old earth was perished by a flood, and yet the foundation of this earth remains today.

Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished.

And even when this earth is dissolved into elements scorched by fire, it shall still remain and flee from the face of God on His throne alone with the stars of this heaven.

So we see how natural scholarship is not to be trusted in, especially when it comes from those rejecting Scripture of God as written.

Any scholar worth his salt knows we must compare Jonah's experience to Jesus because Jesus Himself said the one was a sign of the other.

Yes, the literally time in hell by Jesus' soul, as confirmed by Scripture, was a sign to the unbelieving Jews, even as Jonas' three days in the whale's belly was a sign to the Assyrians.

And Jesus prophesied that Assyria would rise up to condemn Israel, because the Assyrians repented at the preaching of Jonas, and the Jews did not at the preaching of Jesus Christ Himself.

"Heart of the Earth" and "the Earth with her bars was about me forever...in sheol" refer to the same thing: dead in the grave, not some fiery, burning, blazing chamber 10,000 miles down to the Earth's core. When will you learn that the fires of hell are not yet burning, according to 2 Peter 3:9 KJV:

Scripture proves the Hellenic spiritual theology was not completely off the mark, but as with other myths and legends of men, the true record is revealed in Scripture.

The heart of the earth of hell for departed souls in Scripture, shows that hades was indeed in the center of the earth, as described by Hellenic theology.

It also shows Homer was not far off, in having Odysseus speak with the soul of Achilles in the underworld, even as the rich man and Abraham in hell.

Hellenism also spoke of a Paradise in hades for the blessed, that those outside could see and weep for, which is also was not far off the truth at the time, since there was Abraham's bosom of the righteous, that the those tormented in hell could see and cry out to.

We can even see how the god Hades was a corrupt version of the Scriptural truth, that reveals there is indeed a king of destruction over the bottomless pit, called Apollyon.

When will you learn that the fires of hell are not yet burning, according to 2 Peter 3:9 KJV:

When Scripture says so. Let me check:

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

All souls on earth can come to repentance, if they come to Christ with godly sorrow.

This also has nothing to do with the fires of hell not yet burning. Even as the flames of hell have nothing to do with the fire out of heaven after the millennial reign, that scorches the whole earth.

I suppose if you want to corrupt Scripture twice removed from truth, then someone can say souls in hell will have chance to repent.

However, even Catholic purgatory has enough sense to leave them burning for a season.

The natural minded theologian doesn't even have the Scriptural sense, that Catholic orthodoxy has. Which makes sense, since the natural man receives none of the spiritual things of God.

 

[robert derrick]

Your constant insistence that everyone who disagrees with you is "natural minded" and by implication "not filled with the spirit" is getting ridiculous. How anyone hasn't reported you yet is beyond me.

I show by your own words, as compared to Scripture, that you think with a natural mindedness pertaining to the immortality of the soul, and the truth of torment in hell and the lake of fire.

This is the case of many Christians in other areas of doctrine of Christ, and has been in my own case at times, and has nothing to do with speaking of one being born again or saved.

You teach the exact same theology of other natural philosophers and theologians of the past. You simply resort to petulance about being disagreed with and corrected.

As you said, it's not necessary to be spirit filled to know something, and it's not necessary to be without the spirit, to err about something. It just shows the state of mind in that particular area. I have agreed with you elsewhere, that you are not fighting against Scripture, because you don't mind believing it there.

But here, you hate the truth of a tormented hell and everlasting lake of fire, and so you come up with mortal soul natural theology to justify it.

Simple. No one is saying anything about either of us actually going there or not. Going to heaven or hell is only judged by our spiritual purity of heart, and godliness of life.

If you persist in returning to me like a moth to the flame in this matter, as I've spoken of before, then you need to get thick skin. You';ve branded me a false teacher, etc... I only care if it's true by sound argument from Scripture. I don't care one bit about your personal opinion of me and the eternal future of my immortal soul.

Simply reasoning? I've never read such convoluted nonsense. What is the point you're trying to make? That a symbolic prophecy taken from the most symbolic book of Scripture requires no interpretation? Speak English, friend!

I'm not surprised you take nearly nothing in Revelation to be literally true. There are others who say nothing at all in Revelation is literally true.

in any case, as I pointed out, if there were oblivion for destroyed souls, then there could be no possible parable about it with a king over them, that would have any use whatsoever.

And so, you not only turn revealed truth into parables, but you also promote parables about nothingness. Any sensible child knows there can be no symbolism of a king and them under a king, that applies to nothingness.

Scriptural doctrine show that apolluwn is being laid waste, with a king of destruction over the destroyed: Obliterated like dust to the earth, but not unto oblivion like nothingness.

What does any of this have to do with one of the greatest Greek scholars of the Greek language exposing your theology as fraudulent by pointing out that the strongest Greek words the Greek tongue possesses to signify annihilation are reinterpreted to mean "maintaining an everlasting but wretched existence"?

I am as unimpressed by great scholars, and even more so by great lying scholars, that corrupt scholarship, in order to corrupt Scripture.

Where are they? where are thy wise men? and let them tell thee now, and let them know what the LORD of hosts hath purposed upon Egypt.

He taketh the wise in their own craftiness: and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong.

Yes, the wicked will be "punished from the presence of the Lord" in the judgment, but there isn't a single verse that supports your false idea that "sinners will eternally exist apart from God" - that's a made up, subjective idea that finds zero Biblical support. Why?

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

We're getting to the point where repetition becomes meaningless.

I've said end of debate already once, Unless there is something entirely new from you, I'll not be responding anymore.

 

[Phoneman777]

As I said, you corrupt Greek language in order to corrupt Scripture: Hades began as a spiritual term for the god Hades in Hellenistic paganism, where all the dead souls of men went for eternity under the rule of Hades.

I'm telling you EXACTLY what Strong says - that "hades" means "place of the dead" or "grave". How is that corrupting Greek language?

This is why Homer can record Odysseus speaking with the shaded soul of Achilles. The earliest Achaeans had no graves, but practiced cremation of dead bodies, like the Romans. Their dead bodies were burned for the specific purpose of ensuring their souls went to Hades, with coins in the eyes for the Ferryman. If not, the body was left for the fowls of the air, and the soul was trapped wandering upon the earth.

What the "earliest" Greeks did is of ZERO consequence. What matters is what the word meant at the time Jesus spoke it, and according to Strongs, Vines, Thayer's, and Mr. Weymouth, it means "grave" or "place of the dead". I've never seen a more pathetic excuse for Biblical scholarship than yours, friend.

The point being of course, that hades was a theologically spiritual place, not the dirt of the earth for corpses. Later, with the increasing habit of burials and tombs, they were named mnemos memorials. Since all Scripture is doctrinal in nature, then Hades is used for hell with souls, and only mnemos is used for graves and tombs of the dead bodies. I don't mind you corrupting Hellenistic culture, as well as Scriptural doctrine, because it gives me a chance to bone up on old ancient studies of mine. However, I've already corrected you once in this, so I'll not be bothering to do so again.

"Gay" used to mean "happy" so why don't you (I presume) go around telling everyone that Jesus made you "gay"? Because the meaning of words changes over time, right or wrong?

More carnal mindedness rejecting spiritual truth, because it makes no sense to the natural man. However, since this is all about actively opposing the truth of Scripture, then the sense of any natural minded man is also lost: A firebrand thrown into a larger fire to expand it's destruction, is common in any campfire, and was especially done in ancient times of war, to lay waste defeated cities. The allies used it in WW2 against the industrial cities of Germany, which was a firestorm strategy.

Your "firebrand" is a separate thing from the larger fire into which you throw it. However, how in blue blazes do you expect to cast "hellfire" into "hellfire"? My goodness, if practicing weak scholarship was a paying job, you'd be a millionaire.

As we have seen, it's not necessary to prove doctrine of Scripture by word definitions, but to clear the air, apolluw simply meant to destroy and lay utterly waste. Some would even sow the city with salt, for nothing to grow again. Whether it be mountains worn to dust by nature, or cities utterly destroyed by man, the elements remain, while the structures were destroyed: creation can be obliterated, but not to oblivion.

Maybe your "god" can't annihilate things from existence, but my God says He will do exactly that:

>He says of Satan, "...never shalt thou be aka exist anymore".
>He says of the wicked, "they shall be as though they had not been aka had not existed.
>He says "yet a little while and the wicked shall not be aka shall not exist.
>He says He will "destroy both body and soul in hell".

It's embarrassingly easy to pick apart your arguments, friend, but I must in order to preserve others from your satanic error of "innate immortality of the soul".

Immortality belongs to God alone - does that pertain to God's "body"? No, because He has no body - it pertains to His entire being....so why do you keep insisting the immortality He grants to those who "seek for immortality" pertains only to their body? No, friend, God will grant immortality to their entire being, which means at present there is absolutely nothing immortal about any of us.

God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, with their wastedness in smoke remaining for witness of the judgment of the Lord upon the wicked. In like manner, the old earth was perished by a flood, and yet the foundation of this earth remains today. Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished. And even when this earth is dissolved into elements scorched by fire, it shall still remain and flee from the face of God on His throne alone with the stars of this heaven.

"...for the former things are passed away." I'm curious to know how much gun powder and lemon juice you squeeze out on your Bible to make "pass away" mean "maintain an everlasting but wretched existence".

So we see how natural scholarship is not to be trusted in, especially when it comes from those rejecting Scripture of God as written.

I agree, Laodicea must pray for the "eyesalve" of spiritual discernment.

Yes, the literally time in hell by Jesus' soul, as confirmed by Scripture, was a sign to the unbelieving Jews, even as Jonas' three days in the whale's belly was a sign to the Assyrians. And Jesus prophesied that Assyria would rise up to condemn Israel, because the Assyrians repented at the preaching of Jonas, and the Jews did not at the preaching of Jesus Christ Himself.

Again, Jesus compared His coming "heart of the Earth" experience with Jonah's "the earth with her bars was about me forever...in Sheol" experience. Did Jonah travel 10,000 miles down to the Earth's fiery core? No, he merely took a 3 day ride on a sardine submarine 10,000 miles above the "heart of the Earth".

Scripture proves the Hellenic spiritual theology was not completely off the mark, but as with other myths and legends of men, the true record is revealed in Scripture. The heart of the earth of hell for departed souls in Scripture, shows that hades was indeed in the center of the earth, as described by Hellenic theology.

There you go again, defending Greek theology and making it Biblical theology. I've shown you numerous times and ways that Jesus didn't go anywhere except a tomb dug into the Earth.

It also shows Homer was not far off, in having Odysseus speak with the soul of Achilles in the underworld, even as the rich man and Abraham in hell.

I'm sure Satan is well pleased at your insistence his pagan deceptions are getting your stamp of approval...but God most assuredly is not pleased.

Hellenism also spoke of a Paradise in hades for the blessed, that those outside could see and weep for, which is also was not far off the truth at the time, since there was Abraham's bosom of the righteous, that the those tormented in hell could see and cry out to.

Good gravy, the Bible is clear that "paradise" is not down here it's up there. Ask me to show you the verses.

All souls on earth can come to repentance, if they come to Christ with godly sorrow.

Absolutely.

This also has nothing to do with the fires of hell not yet burning. Even as the flames of hell have nothing to do with the fire out of heaven after the millennial reign, that scorches the whole earth.

Your Gospel of Inconsistency seems to have unlimited editions. If the wicked are burning right now, what else but hellfire is burning them? Ask any of your "immortal soul" crowd members if the wicked are now suffering in the flames of hellfire and they'll tell you exactly that.

The natural minded theologian doesn't even have the Scriptural sense, that Catholic orthodoxy has.

Catholic doctrine is sensible? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

 

[Phoneman777]

I'm telling you EXACTLY what Strong says - that "hades" means "place of the dead" or "grave". How is that corrupting Greek language?

What the "earliest" Greeks did is of ZERO consequence. What matters is what the word meant at the time Jesus spoke it, and according to Strongs, Vines, Thayer's, and Mr. Weymouth, it means "grave" or "place of the dead". I've never seen a more pathetic excuse for Biblical scholarship than yours, friend.

"Gay" used to mean "happy" so why don't you (I presume) go around telling everyone that Jesus made you "gay"? Because the meaning of words changes over time, right or wrong?

Your "firebrand" is a separate thing from the larger fire into which you throw it. However, how in blue blazes do you expect to cast "hellfire" into "hellfire"? My goodness, if practicing weak scholarship was a paying job, you'd be a millionaire.

Maybe your "god" can't annihilate things from existence, but my God says He will do exactly that:

>He says of Satan, "...never shalt thou be aka exist anymore".
>He says of the wicked, "they shall be as though they had not been aka had not existed.
>He says "yet a little while and the wicked shall not be aka shall not exist.
>He says He will "destroy both body and soul in hell".

It's embarrassingly easy to pick apart your arguments, friend, but I must in order to preserve others from your satanic error of "innate immortality of the soul".

Immortality belongs to God alone - does that pertain to God's "body"? No, because He has no body - it pertains to His entire being....so why do you keep insisting the immortality He grants to those who "seek for immortality" pertains only to their body? No, friend, God will grant immortality to their entire being, which means at present there is absolutely nothing immortal about any of us.

"...for the former things are passed away." I'm curious to know how much gun powder and lemon juice you squeeze out on your Bible to make "pass away" mean "maintain an everlasting but wretched existence".

I agree, Laodicea must pray for the "eyesalve" of spiritual discernment.

Again, Jesus compared His coming "heart of the Earth" experience with Jonah's "the earth with her bars was about me forever...in Sheol" experience. Did Jonah travel 10,000 miles down to the Earth's fiery core? No, he merely took a 3 day ride on a sardine submarine 10,000 miles above the "heart of the Earth".

There you go again, defending Greek theology and making it Biblical theology. I've shown you numerous times and ways that Jesus didn't go anywhere except a tomb dug into the Earth.

I'm sure Satan is well pleased at your insistence his pagan deceptions are getting your stamp of approval...but God most assuredly is not pleased.

Good gravy, the Bible is clear that "paradise" is not down here it's up there. Ask me to show you the verses.

Absolutely.

Your Gospel of Inconsistency seems to have unlimited editions. If the wicked are burning right now, what else but hellfire is burning them? Ask any of your "immortal soul" crowd members if the wicked are now suffering in the flames of hellfire and they'll tell you exactly that.

Catholic doctrine is sensible? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

You're free to carry on with your unique ideas of:

>"disembodied soul bodies"
>"God alone hath immortality" means "everyone has immortality"
>Abraham's literal bosom is many miles tall and wide to accommodate all the dead dearly departed saints
>"the dead know not anything" means "the dead know everything"
>souls exist after the body and spirit separate though Genesis says this union is how a soul begins and exists
>Greek mythology is the basis for Biblical reasoning

I'm sure I offered an adequate amount of rebuttal for anyone reading your errors to avoid seduction by it so now it's my hope God will open your eyes to them. Shalom!

 

[robert derrick]

I'm telling you EXACTLY what Strong says - that "hades" means "place of the dead" or "grave". How is that corrupting Greek language?

I don't care what Strong says. I went to the source long ago, and I know where to go to refresh my memory.

What the "earliest" Greeks did is of ZERO consequence. What matters is what the word meant at the time Jesus spoke it, and according to Strongs, Vines, Thayer's, and Mr. Weymouth, it means "grave" or "place of the dead". I've never seen a more pathetic excuse for Biblical scholarship than yours, friend.

This from the lover of great Greek scholars, that are purposely lying about Hellenistic language and culture, in order to pervert Scripture.

You don't mind going back to earliest Hebrew culture to try and teach your doctrine, and now earliest Hellenes are anathema.

A hallmark of false doctrine is inconsistency on the part of the teacher.

What matters is what the word meant at the time Jesus spoke it,

True. This is why Jesus and the apostles speak of hades as hell, and not the burial place of dead bodies.

Scripture is showing where Greek spiritual theology is true and false. It also corrects the natural minded Sadducees, who say there is neither soul, nor spirit, nor hell of torment, but only the dust and graves of the earth.

"Gay" used to mean "happy" so why don't you (I presume) go around telling everyone that Jesus made you "gay"? Because the meaning of words changes over time, right or wrong?

It still does with many people, because it does in Scripture. Which is why hades still means hell to many people, because it does in Scripture.

Hades was only the grave to natural minded Greeks, as well as Christians, that are natural minded while holding to mortal soul theology, which began among Christians, that also rejected a hell of torment. Maybe they were Greeks too.

Your "firebrand" is a separate thing from the larger fire into which you throw it. However, how in blue blazes do you expect to cast "hellfire" into "hellfire"?

I don't. You do, because now you openly change Scripture, rather than just make it a parable.

Hell is cast into the lake of fire, and so the flames of hell are cast into the lake of fire, like firebrands into a fiery lake.

Simple. And it's more interesting knowledge of truth in Scripture, that I can thank you for, since it neatly corrects your error.

Maybe your "god" can't annihilate things from existence, but my God says He will do exactly that:

The reason you don't report me, is because you've crossed whatever line you think is crossed. It's just that you're too churlish to receive it in kind.

>He says of Satan, "...never shalt thou be aka exist anymore".
>He says of the wicked, "they shall be as though they had not been aka had not existed.
>He says "yet a little while and the wicked shall not be aka shall not exist.

I've already corrected your reading of these. You can go back and look, if you want to respond to them. After one or two times, I stop repeating myself to those not listening.

>He says He will "destroy both body and soul in hell".

Correct, which proves the body and soul are not always one and the same, since Jesus says not to fear them that can kill the body only, and not the soul. We are only to fear the Lord, that can destroy both body and soul in hell.

Why would anyone fear the Lord, if they believe they wink out of existence, and wouldn't feel, think, or know anything, much less that they ever were in the first place?

Removing the flames of hell is therefore Scripturally shown to be done by them, that remove the fear of the Lord.

Which of course, make sense.

It's embarrassingly easy to pick apart your arguments, friend, but I must in order to preserve others from your satanic error of "innate immortality of the soul".

No, you do it, because all your have is intellectual stimulation, when arguing your teaching. You enjoy twisting Scripture, and the words of others alike. You get a thrill out of it, like the other gnostics teaching a created christ.

Immortality belongs to God alone - does that pertain to God's "body"? No, because He has no body - it pertains to His entire being....so why do you keep insisting the immortality He grants to those who "seek for immortality" pertains only to their body? No, friend, God will grant immortality to their entire being, which means at present there is absolutely nothing immortal about any of us.

"...for the former things are passed away." I'm curious to know how much gun powder and lemon juice you squeeze out on your Bible to make "pass away" mean "maintain an everlasting but wretched existence".

Which is why I don't continue repeating myself, to those who will not hear any correction, but only continue citing their own learned mantra. I don't argue just for argument sake. It's a waste of time and effort.

Again, Jesus compared His coming "heart of the Earth" experience with Jonah's "the earth with her bars was about me forever...in Sheol" experience. Did Jonah travel 10,000 miles down to the Earth's fiery core? No, he merely took a 3 day ride on a sardine submarine 10,000 miles above the "heart of the Earth".

Actually, Jesus concludes the dispute over whether Jonas was actually in hell, or just imagined it, while He was in the whale's belly.

He was in the whale's belly only, while Jesus would go into hell in the heart of the earth, by the Spirit to preach to all them imprisoned there. The rich man heard His gospel as well as Abraham.

Those making a parable out of Jesus' prophecy, must therefore also make a parable out of Jonas in the whale's belly.

He also shows how the Hellenic spiritual theology of hades with souls was correct, in being in the center of the earth.

There you go again, defending Greek theology and making it Biblical theology. I've shown you numerous times and ways that Jesus didn't go anywhere except a tomb dug into the Earth.

Not every thing man believed without Scripture to confirm it, was false. They were simply groping in darkness, rather than knowing for certain by the true Light of Christ.

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Paul quoted Hellenism, when it was true and useful for teaching doctrine of Christ.

You could do the same with ancient Hebrew culture, if you weren't using the natural minded ones to do it.

I'm sure Satan is well pleased at your insistence his pagan deceptions are getting your stamp of approval...but God most assuredly is not pleased.

The devil is the one who perverted the truth, that men believed, by surrounding it with erroneous myth and tradition.

He does so in order to muddy the waters of true Scripture, and cause natural minded people to conclude the Bible is only another version of other myths and legends, or is just parables rather than true revelation of Christ.

He does the same with the Jews and Christians, that prefer their own traditions around Scripture, rather than Scripture itself.

Some of these are Mariology, born with sin nature, created christs, mortal souls, Jesus Christ came in spirit only in the form of a man, etc...

 

[robert derrick]

Good gravy, the Bible is clear that "paradise" is not down here it's up there. Ask me to show you the verses.

While it is interesting to see your interpretations of Scripture, I don't need to.

The tree of life in the paradise of God, is being eaten freely by them overcoming in the world, even as Jesus overcame in the days of His flesh. We are spiritually seated in heavenly places doing so, while living righteously in the flesh.

If you are not eating of that spiritual fruit promised to the saints in Christ Jesus, then that is your problem by your own faith alone.

If that is the case, then I do not say that would specifically be due to your natural minded theology of mortal souls, but it could be.

In any case, the tree of life is free for any that believe and do the will of God, in the spirit and in the flesh.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

I eat of it and Him any and all times I desire to do so.

I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

Jesus' spiritual flesh and blood are His faith and obedience to Him.

We open the door to the Son and Word of God, whenever we obey Him, whether in doctrine or deed.

Your Gospel of Inconsistency seems to have unlimited editions. If the wicked are burning right now, what else but hellfire is burning them? Ask any of your "immortal soul" crowd members if the wicked are now suffering in the flames of hellfire and they'll tell you exactly that.

The Scripture you quoted had nothing to do with hell nor the lake of fire. For some reason you think it does.

Scripture speaks of the tormenting flames of hell, and many people therefore speak of hellfire in many ways. I don't see any problem with that.

Catholic doctrine is sensible? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

The Catholics hold to many truths of Scripture, especially about the trinity of the Godhead, and confess Jesus as Savior, Lord, and God. They have enough spiritual understanding to also know the soul is made immortal in the image of God, and the body is only mortal flesh and blood.

Also, be careful about speaking of the Catholics like you do with me. They do report people like you.

And if you weren't such an interesting fount of error in your natural theology, then I hope they don't do so.

But, alas, I can see you may be running out of new things to correct.

 

[robert derrick]

You're free to carry on with your unique ideas of:

>"disembodied soul bodies"
>"God alone hath immortality" means "everyone has immortality"
>Abraham's literal bosom is many miles tall and wide to accommodate all the dead dearly departed saints
>"the dead know not anything" means "the dead know everything"
>souls exist after the body and spirit separate though Genesis says this union is how a soul begins and exists
>Greek mythology is the basis for Biblical reasoning

I'm sure I offered an adequate amount of rebuttal for anyone reading your errors to avoid seduction by it so now it's my hope God will open your eyes to them. Shalom!

As I said, you only must corrupt Scripture to teach your mortal soul natural theology, but you must also corrupt what others say about it.

Which is no surprise. If someone is willing to change the words of God, whom they can't see, why would they not do so with the words of those they can see?

Shalom!

Ah, so you are a wanna be Hebrew of old. You need to listen to David, and not the natural minded ones that argued against David.

I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

That's the soul of a man, not his natural born body of flesh, that the soul is wrapped with in the womb of a woman, like a saddling cloth for a babe.

For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

 

[amigo de christo]

Oh, right, as if you have mastered Greek and Hebrew and don't rely on experts, right? Don't be a hypocrite. The man is considered one of the greatest Greek scholars of our time and his books line the shelves of seminaries and Bible colleges, you can be sure of that. I even heard a Sunday preacher on the radio today quote from Weymouth's translation, a certain Rusty Tardo during his "Faithful Word Assembly" broadcast on 800 AM.

The man knows what he's talking about and he says that anyone like you who insists that the Greek words for "destroy" and "destruction" and "death" and "perish" as used to describe what happens to a Soul are to be understood to mean "maintain an everlasting but wretched existence" does WORSE than translate "black" as "white".

Understand? When you claim "the soul that sinneth shall die" means "shall eternally exist in seperation from God", Dr. Weymouth says you need to put down the Bible, resign your "Bible teacher" position, and go take some classes in Greek so that you can cease from preaching false ideas about Eternal Torment.

Ye trust in men . Trust in GOD . i dont need them so called greek scholars . GOD can give me the understanding
of what HE inspired . Those men , many of them died and bled for us to get the bible .
Todays so called greek scholars suffer nothing and do as they do for the praise of men .
I AINT HEEDING any of them . OPEN the KJV and read . ITS FINE . The HOLY GHOST gives a lamb
understanding as we have need of it . THESE clowns who think they so wise and know so much greek
and then come along and try and tell us the KJV is corrupt or that we need them to help us understand it ,
I WONT HEED A ONE OF THEM . If you even notice it seems they always use they greek
to justify they own teaching . YEAH , RUN FROM THEM and learn that bible FOR YOU .

 

[amigo de christo]

SO what greek scholar do you suggest we sit under .
The adventist one
or prosperity gospel one
or the JW one
or Catholic one
or emergent one
or liberal one
or nar one
Or maybe the OSAS greek scholar .
FOLKS take note . THEY ALL CLAIM TO KNOW GREEK and yet they all SAY THE GREEK MEANS what they SAY IT MEANS
and their greek seems to contradict one another as well .
OOPS .
NOPE . OPEN that lovely KJV bible and just learn for yourselves . AND PS if you dont know some of the older
english , I GOT TWO OLD DICTIONARIES and will be more than happy to show you what a word means . FLEE THESE SO CALLLED
scholars . THEY KNOW NOTHING but how to decieve

 

[Phoneman777]

I don't care what Strong says. I went to the source long ago, and I know where to go to refresh my memory.

I've already informed you that meanings of words change over time, and we must accept what Jesus' words in Luke 16b meant at the time He spoke them, not impose an ancient meaning some devil worshiping pagan assigned centuries earlier. That's what Strong does, as well as Vine, Thayer, Weymouth, Jamieson Fawcett Brown, Henry, Clarke, etc.

Gay used to mean "happy" - do you go around preaching the love of Jesus made you gay? Why not? ;)

 

[Phoneman777]

While it is interesting to see your interpretations of Scripture, I don't need to.

The tree of life in the paradise of God, is being eaten freely by them overcoming in the world, even as Jesus overcame in the days of His flesh. We are spiritually seated in heavenly places doing so, while living righteously in the flesh.

If you are not eating of that spiritual fruit promised to the saints in Christ Jesus, then that is your problem by your own faith alone.

If that is the case, then I do not say that would specifically be due to your natural minded theology of mortal souls, but it could be.

In any case, the tree of life is free for any that believe and do the will of God, in the spirit and in the flesh.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

I eat of it and Him any and all times I desire to do so.

I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

Jesus' spiritual flesh and blood are His faith and obedience to Him.

We open the door to the Son and Word of God, whenever we obey Him, whether in doctrine or deed.


The Scripture you quoted had nothing to do with hell nor the lake of fire. For some reason you think it does.

Scripture speaks of the tormenting flames of hell, and many people therefore speak of hellfire in many ways. I don't see any problem with that.




The Catholics hold to many truths of Scripture, especially about the trinity of the Godhead, and confess Jesus as Savior, Lord, and God. They have enough spiritual understanding to also know the soul is made immortal in the image of God, and the body is only mortal flesh and blood.

Also, be careful about speaking of the Catholics like you do with me. They do report people like you.

And if you weren't such an interesting fount of error in your natural theology, then I hope they don't do so.

But, alas, I can see you may be running out of new things to correct.

So, do you agree that Paradise is up, not down?

 

[Phoneman777]

Ye trust in men . Trust in GOD . i dont need them so called greek scholars . GOD can give me the understanding
of what HE inspired . Those men , many of them died and bled for us to get the bible .
Todays so called greek scholars suffer nothing and do as they do for the praise of men .
I AINT HEEDING any of them . OPEN the KJV and read . ITS FINE . The HOLY GHOST gives a lamb
understanding as we have need of it . THESE clowns who think they so wise and know so much greek
and then come along and try and tell us the KJV is corrupt or that we need them to help us understand it ,
I WONT HEED A ONE OF THEM . If you even notice it seems they always use they greek
to justify they own teaching . YEAH , RUN FROM THEM and learn that bible FOR YOU

I'm not sure you're aware that the reason your KJV Bible is found so abundantly everywhere is due to the God-ordained Protestant Reformation which was a movement started by men who studiously compared the accurate Greek New Testament MSS carried West from the Byzantian Empire in Palestine (when Islam overran the area) with the corrupt Latin MSS of the Roman catholic church. The Textus Receptus NT was compiled from these pure Byzantian Greek MSS and is why it and all Bibles translated from it (including the KJV) contain what God intended for His people to read and to bear. The "new versions" including the NKJV are all translated from a later rival to the Textus Receptus, the corrupt "Critical Text" which is about as reliable as Dominion voting machines.

It is by comparing these languages that God-fearing men were able to expose the unBiblical errors of the papacy, and is why millions broke away from "the Whore of Babylon" and took their place among the Protestants who hold to "sola Scriptura", "sola Christi", "solo gracia".

 

[amigo de christo]

I'm not sure you're aware that the reason your KJV Bible is found so abundantly everywhere is due to the God-ordained Protestant Reformation which was a movement started by men who studiously compared the accurate Greek New Testament MSS carried West from the Byzantian Empire in Palestine (when Islam overran the area) with the corrupt Latin MSS of the Roman catholic church. The Textus Receptus NT was compiled from these pure Byzantian Greek MSS and is why it and all Bibles translated from it (including the KJV) contain what God intended for His people to read and to bear. The "new versions" including the NKJV are all translated from a later rival to the Textus Receptus, the corrupt "Critical Text" which is about as reliable as Dominion voting machines.

It is by comparing these languages that God-fearing men were able to expose the unBiblical errors of the papacy, and is why millions broke away from "the Whore of Babylon" and took their place among the Protestants who hold to "sola Scriptura", "sola Christi", "solo gracia".

I am speaking in terms of the more modern scholars not the true scholars .