Can A Person Be a Christian And A Sinner At The Same Time ?

[Jake]

Seriously? Prentis - I am not sure if this is your youth showing or not, but not everything is 'all or nothing'. I can believe in the reality of God's presence in my life AND recognize the reality of sin in every Christian around me, including myself.

I have enjoyed reading the majority of your posts, but I think you might want to re-evaluate you understanding of the role of sin in the lives of Christians. There really is nothing more arrogant than claiming that you do not sin. It rings hollow in the ears of of people who know Christ and those who do not. If God made Christians perfect, our perfect morality and love would be reflected in our rate of divorce, and crimes committed - yet Christians are no different than the rest of the world because we still commit sins.

Why does the NT recommend confessing your sins to one another if we have no sin?

Also, don't you think it is a bit self serving to claim that any Christian who sins is simply not a Christian? It is like those signs that say

1. I am always right, if not, please refer to number 2
2. Please refer to number one.

It reminds me of the same circular reasoning that 'once saved, always saved' folks use to explain the lapsed Christian - 'obviously, they were never a Christian'.

But isn't this the problem with Christianity today, Aspen? The acceptance and the leniency of sin in us and around us. We have allowed the world to enter our churches, along with untruth, and we call it evangilizing, only disciples are not being created. There are babes in Christ who get told that it's ok to sin because, after all, we're simply humans with no divine nature and no way out, we'll always be stuck in our defeats as long as we live here. This is so contrary to what the Bible says.
We have people on this very board who teach we have two natures! NO! Believers only have ONE nature, the NEW nature, the Divine one, the One who has already overcome, so that in us we also can overcome. Are we really saying to ourselves - we are now not overcomers, we are not conqueors, we have no part in the new nature, our faith is based on what I can see.
Do you see how this is all contrary to what the Word actually says?

 

[Episkopos]

I think you are expressing a fantastic ideal. I try to see the world as it is, not as it should be. Ideals are great to strive for, however seeing reality for what it is promotes growth.

Aspen my friend...these "ideals" turned the world upside down in the first century. Many "idealists" were burned, sawn in half and thrown to Lions. But they will reign with the great Idealist...Jesus Christ.

But isn't this the problem with Christianity today, Aspen? The acceptance and the leniency of sin in us and around us. We have allowed the world to enter our churches, along with untruth, and we call it evangilizing, only disciples are not being created. There are babes in Christ who get told that it's ok to sin because, after all, we're simply humans with no divine nature and no way out, we'll always be stuck in our defeats as long as we live here. This is so contrary to what the Bible says.
We have people on this very board who teach we have two natures! NO! Believers only have ONE nature, the NEW nature, the Divine one, the One who has already overcome, so that in us we also can overcome. Are we really saying to ourselves - we are now not overcomers, we are not conqueors, we have no part in the new nature, our faith is based on what I can see.
Do you see how this is all contrary to what the Word actually says?

Hooah brother!

 

[aspen]

Aspen my friend...these "ideals" turned the world upside down in the first century. Many "idealists" were burned, sawn in half and thrown to Lions. But they will reign with the great Idealist...Jesus Christ.

Even the early Martyrs were sinners. Have you read the biography of Antony? He was the first recognized hermit who lived in the 3rd and 4th century - in Anthanasius of Alexandra's biography, he describes Antony fighting with demons (sinful urges) for the majority of the time he was a hermit. Sin was around every corner for this hermit and he fought against them using extraordinary means - throwing himself naked into thorn bushes when he had lustful thoughts. Sin was not conquered as soon as he became a Christian - he faced it everyday of his life.

It is the same way with the rest of the saints and martyrs. Therese of Lisieux struggled with doubt up until her death bed. The Catholic Church recognizes her not only as a saint, but as a Doctor of the Church. Sin is not something we need to forget about - we need to recognize it and allow Christ to root it out of our lives.

 

[Prentis]

Seriously? Prentis - I am not sure if this is your youth showing or not, but not everything is 'all or nothing'. I can believe in the reality of God's presence in my life AND recognize the reality of sin in every Christian around me, including myself.

I have enjoyed reading the majority of your posts, but I think you might want to re-evaluate you understanding of the role of sin in the lives of Christians. There really is nothing more arrogant than claiming that you do not sin. It rings hollow in the ears of of people who know Christ and those who do not. If God made Christians perfect, our perfect morality and love would be reflected in our rate of divorce, and crimes committed - yet Christians are no different than the rest of the world because we still commit sins.

Why does the NT recommend confessing your sins to one another if we have no sin?

Also, don't you think it is a bit self serving to claim that any Christian who sins is simply not a Christian? It is like those signs that say

1. I am always right, if not, please refer to number 2
2. Please refer to number one.

It reminds me of the same circular reasoning that 'once saved, always saved' folks use to explain the lapsed Christian - 'obvheiously, they were never a Christian'.

Aspen, I did not say I don't sin, and I didn't say that christians all don't sin. I said the Christian has access to the presence of God, where there is no sin. Having this then, what excuse is there for sin, because the power to overcome is there? I fall under the same category. I don't walk at that level, but if the word says it can be, I believe it, and seek to enter his rest.

What I'm trying to get across is that we need to let go of this idea that we cannot, by abiding in Christ, be as he is. It is not us, of course, but Him in us. But is that just an ideal? Or is it to be a reality, that indeed we walk in the presence of God always, and thus are free from all sin. The point is not to just 'not sin', the point is to be perfectly united with Christ, one with him, and filled with him, in whom there is no sin.

Is this possible?

Aspen, I was not making a personal attack on you, I was saying that the rationale you were using was according to sight, and not faith. Sight says sin is too much, we can't overcome completely. Faith says by Christ we can, and in him and through him we can be perfectly reconciled to God and actually stay there.

Sorry if I offended you.

 

[aspen]

Aspen, I did not say I don't sin, and I didn't say that christians all don't sin. I said the Christian has access to the presence of God, where there is no sin. Having this then, what excuse is there for sin, because the power to overcome is there? I fall under the same category. I don't walk at that level, but if the word says it can be, I believe it, and seek to enter his rest.

What I'm trying to get across is that we need to let go of this idea that we cannot, by abiding in Christ, be as he is. It is not us, of course, but Him in us. But is that just an ideal? Or is it to be a reality, that indeed we walk in the presence of God always, and thus are free from all sin. The point is not to just 'not sin', the point is to be perfectly united with Christ, one with him, and filled with him, in whom there is no sin.

Is this possible?

Aspen, I was not making a personal attack on you, I was saying that the rationale you were using was according to sight, and not faith. Sight says sin is too much, we can't overcome completely. Faith says by Christ we can, and in him and through him we can be perfectly reconciled to God and actually stay there.

Sorry if I offended you.

I am not offended at all, I am glad you clarified your position for me. I certainly agree that we have access to God during sanctification - he is our closest relationship. I am not sure I am comfortable with your sight vs. faith rationale, but that is a minor detail. Yeah, I think if we are not experiencing real changes in our character and in the way we relate to others, we need to really focus on prayer - God will take care of us and lead us home.

 

[Episkopos]

Even the early Martyrs were sinners. Have you read the biography of Antony? He was the first recognized hermit who lived in the 3rd and 4th century - in Anthanasius of Alexandra's biography, he describes Antony fighting with demons (sinful urges) for the majority of the time he was a hermit. Sin was around every corner for this hermit and he fought against them using extraordinary means - throwing himself naked into thorn bushes when he had lustful thoughts. Sin was not conquered as soon as he became a Christian - he faced it everyday of his life.

It is the same way with the rest of the saints and martyrs. Therese of Lisieux struggled with doubt up until her death bed. The Catholic Church recognizes her not only as a saint, but as a Doctor of the Church. Sin is not something we need to forget about - we need to recognize it and allow Christ to root it out of our lives.

Your few examples prove that some people tried fighting the flesh in their own strength. This does not take away from the victory and truth in Christ. It just means that people throughout history were not all victorious in Christ. Throwing yourself on branches and whipping yourself makes good copy. All the more reason to try stopping people from believing in real grace power from heaven. They think...if THESE people couldn't overcome by these extreme efforts than we should never think it is possible to obey Christ.

That is what the ruler of this world would have us to believe.

But to the one who abides in Christ is should be obvious that no human effort can overcome it's own nature. This may not be so obvious to the propagandists in the religious institutions who are aliens to the life in Christ.

 

[us2are1]

What is the difference between a Christian sinning and a Christian being a sinner ?

A "so called Christian" might know to repent from sin that leads to death but if they die in that sin they are lost. don't take the chance repent.

Hebrews 10

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

38 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him."

 

[aspen]

Your few examples prove that some people tried fighting the flesh in their own strength. This does not take away from the victory and truth in Christ. It just means that people throughout history were not all victorious in Christ. Throwing yourself on branches and whipping yourself makes good copy. All the more reason to try stopping people from believing in real grace power from heaven. They think...if THESE people couldn't overcome by these extreme efforts than we should never think it is possible to obey Christ.

That is what the ruler of this world would have us to believe.

But to the one who abides in Christ is should be obvious that no human effort can overcome it's own nature. This may not be so obvious to the propagandists in the religious institutions who are aliens to the life in Christ.

So in your eyes, they must not have been real Christians, right? I declare! you've got yourself an airtight, circular argument here......just don't read too much church history or expose your self to too many Christians....

 

[us2are1]

Your few examples prove that some people tried fighting the flesh in their own strength. This does not take away from the victory and truth in Christ. It just means that people throughout history were not all victorious in Christ. Throwing yourself on branches and whipping yourself makes good copy. All the more reason to try stopping people from believing in real grace power from heaven. They think...if THESE people couldn't overcome by these extreme efforts than we should never think it is possible to obey Christ.

That is what the ruler of this world would have us to believe.

But to the one who abides in Christ is should be obvious that no human effort can overcome it's own nature. This may not be so obvious to the propagandists in the religious institutions who are aliens to the life in Christ.

It is true that human efforts can not overcome anything lasting. Only the Spirit of God can overcome as our example, Christ, taught us and showed us. So everyone who has eyes to see and ears to hear "the way to this cure is by asking God for His Spirit". Don't stop asking as He will take you ever deeper. Day by day and week by week.

 

[Prentis]

So in your eyes, they must not have been real Christians, right? I declare! you've got yourself an airtight, circular argument here......just don't read too much church history or expose your self to too many Christians....

I think you're reading something into what he is saying the he isn't actually saying... the question is not whether or not they were christians... The question is what we should get to; the victorious life in Christ Jesus...

 

[Episkopos]

So in your eyes, they must not have been real Christians, right? I declare! you've got yourself an airtight, circular argument here......just don't read too much church history or expose your self to too many Christians....

I could select any number of test cases to prove anything. There have been billions of people who have been born and died. You chose an example of someone who didn't understand the latin bible (he was probably forbidden from reading it) and tried to reach Christ or sinlessness by his own efforts.

This is what a propagandist does. Hitler suceeded in indoctrinating a whole nation that the Jews were subhuman by selective film clips chosen to support his arguments. This was termed...."proof!"

How are you methods different than that?

 

[Jake]

When we see, read or hear about another person's sin, we jusify ourselves in the sins we commit by pointing our fingers and saying - see, another sinner just like me, I must be doing ok because I'm just like a person who was "declared a saint" by a religious institution. The lengths a human will take to justify themselves is bind-boggling.

 

[Episkopos]

When we see, read or hear about another person's sin, we jusify ourselves in the sins we commit by pointing our fingers and saying - see, another sinner just like me, I must be doing ok because I'm just like a person who was "declared a saint" by a religious institution. The lengths a human will take to justify themselves is bind-boggling.

Yes...then they will point a finger at you and call you self-righteous for daring to point it out!!!

 

[aspen]

I could select any number of test cases to prove anything. There have been billions of people who have been born and died. You chose an example of someone who didn't understand the latin bible (he was probably forbidden from reading it) and tried to reach Christ or sinlessness by his own efforts.

This is what a propagandist does. Hitler suceeded in indoctrinating a whole nation that the Jews were subhuman by selective film clips chosen to support his arguments. This was termed...."proof!"

How are you methods different than that?

So you are comparing me to Hitler now? Is there any length you will not go to in order to defend your pet doctrine? You have no idea if Antony was literate or not AND all people who were literate read Latin - it was the language of literacy. Some Protestants incorrectly believe that Roman Catholics kept the Bible in Latin to kept it from the common person - the fact is, if you could read, you read in Latin for 1500 years of church history.

 

[Episkopos]

So you are comparing me to Hitler now? Is there any length you will not go to in order to defend your pet doctrine? You have no idea if Antony was literate or not AND all people who were literate read Latin - it was the language of literacy. Some Protestants incorrectly believe that Roman Catholics kept the Bible in Latin to kept it from the common person - the fact is, if you could read, you read in Latin for 1500 years of church history.

LOL...In Adam we are all sinners....just like Hitler. We may hate the comparison because we like to justify ourselves as follows...I may be a sinner but at least I'm not like THAT guy....just like the Pharisee said to God about the "evil" tax collector.

So our outrage obcures the truth about the Adamic nature. We need not compare...a fallen nature is a fallen nature.

It is really a tired argument. This "pet doctrine" of victory in Christ through the power of God is supported on every page of the bible by the "idealist" truth.

We see things how we are ourselves. If we are in Christ we see the truth...if we are in Adam we see as men do....each having a pet doctrine that supports their own case.

All the ways of men are right in their own eyes. What I am not seeing is the humility that should go with the argumentation that we are all defeated because of our origins in Adam.

I see no consistency here at all.

 

[aspen]

LOL...In Adam we are all sinners....just like Hitler. We may hate the comparison because we like to justify ourselves as follows...I may be a sinner but at least I'm not like THAT guy....just like the Pharisee said to God about the "evil" tax collector.

So our outrage obcures the truth about the Adamic nature. We need not compare...a fallen nature is a fallen nature.

It is really a tired argument. This "pet doctrine" of victory in Christ through the power of God is supported on every page of the bible by the "idealist" truth.

We see things how we are ourselves. If we are in Christ we see the truth...if we are in Adam we see as men do....each having a pet doctrine that supports their own case.

All the ways of men are right in their own eyes. What I am not seeing is the humility that should go with the argumentation that we are all defeated because of our origins in Adam.

I see no consistency here at all.

How does comparing everyone you decide is not really a Christian, to Hitler, while declaring yourself perfect help spread the gospel of humility and love? We are called to be humble servants to the people of the world, not people in denial of our own faults, living in a fantasy world and calling it victory in Christ. True victory in Christ is peace, not lofty denial.

 

[Episkopos]

How does comparing everyone you decide is not really a Christian, to Hitler, while declaring yourself perfect help spread the gospel of humility and love? We are called to be humble servants to the people of the world, not people in denial of our own faults, living in a fantasy world and calling it victory in Christ. True victory in Christ is peace, not lofty denial.

You are just labelling things based on your own perception. The truth is objective. There are two natures...the Adamic and the divine nature in Christ.

If you are in the Adamic nature...you are dead in your sins.

If you are in Christ you are alive in the righteousness of God.

Rather than wiggle out of the ramifications of this reality...start comparing yourself to the truth in the word. Then we can talk. There are any number of millions of people who call themselves Christians all the while living in the Adamic nature. Entire religions are based on this.

 

[aspen]

You are just labelling things based on your own perception. The truth is objective. There are two natures...the Adamic and the divine nature in Christ.

If you are in the Adamic nature...you are dead in your sins.

If you are in Christ you are alive in the righteousness of God.

Rather than wiggle out of the ramifications of this reality...start comparing yourself to the truth in the word. Then we can talk. There are any number of millions of people who call themselves Christians all the while living in the Adamic nature. Entire religions are based on this.

You are right, truth is objective, but our opinions on truth are not. We still carry both characters and it requires us to resist the pull of the Old Man through surrender to Christ - in other words, picking up our cross and following Christ.

You are not my superior in Christ, Episkopos. We are perfectly qualified to talk with each others as equals. right now. All the people you are talking about, who call themselves Christians, are in the process of being wooed by the Holy Spirit - where you see arrogance and hypocrisy, I see Christ's beginnings of a good work, which the NT tells will be completed in God's own time.

 

[Episkopos]

You are right, truth is objective, but our opinions on truth are not. We still carry both characters and it requires us to resist the pull of the Old Man through surrender to Christ - in other words, picking up our cross and following Christ.

You are not my superior in Christ, Episkopos. We are perfectly qualified to talk with each others as equals. right now. All the people you are talking about, who call themselves Christians, are in the process of being wooed by the Holy Spirit - where you see arrogance and hypocrisy, I see Christ's beginnings of a good work, which the NT tells will be completed in God's own time.

We are on a good track if we have not railed against the truth as many seem to do with impunity on this forum. We are called to exhort rebuke and correct with all sound doctrine from the word. We all have copies of the bible. That is the beginning point of our conversation.

As musicians can communicate based on music theory...let's say...we are playing in e flat major!!!. Musicians can then quickly tell if the player knows music and his instrument. It takes only a few seconds to ascertain this.

the same is true with spiritual things....regarding the truth...by how one reads the bible..or twists it's meaning.

We cannot judge a person's walk on this forum since we are not with the person.

So our chats are limited to the shared experience of reading the bible and our experiences with God and others.

So if you resort to "theories" that are outside the bible..we have no ground to communicate on.

If a violinist says he's playing in the key of raspberries...no one will understand what he is talking about. He may be showing that he has no real grasp of music at all.

So I appeal to you to use actual verses with actual practical applications and ramifications based on that word. If you fall short of the word...then be humble and teachable. If you don't know what e flat minor means...you can always ask.

 

[jiggyfly]

Can A Person Be a Christian And A Sinner At The Same Time ?

This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 1Tim.1:15