Why belief in a god is an unfalsifiable claim that serves no purpose

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Romanov2488

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Like winged rabbits?
Ah, so now you see how ridiculous and obnoxious the idea of a winged rabbit is? That’s exactly how we atheists feel about God. You don’t think it’s a bit arrogant to reduce the universe to only two potential explanations as being either created by a god or completely random? There is so much to learn, for all we know, there could be some other species much more advanced than us who’s already got it figured out.
 

Romanov2488

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So that would be “NO” you cannot prove the existence of DARK MATTER to the criteria that YOU demand for proving GOD. Perhaps your criteria for proof is flawed.
I never claimed I could prove that dark matter exists. I said it would either have be a very subtle type of object such as an x ray which would require the right instrument to observe, or it would just merely be a theory like gravity is.

God is not even a subtle object, God transcends space and time which makes all arguments for God’s existence unimportant. We are literally talking about something that exists while at the same time being completely beyond our grasp, it’s silly. It’s so silly in fact, that it has caused mankind problems all throughout history. I too can go around saying there is some dragon inside my garage that cannot be seen. By you asking me to provide evidence of said dragon, I can completely circumvent all questioning and scrutiny by saying your mind is too limited to grasp the dragon in my garage.

Can you prove me wrong that they’re is a dragon in my garage? No, you cannot. Because I too, can make the same arguments and excuses that the religious make. The main difference between a claim like that and the existence of a god is that society is biased more towards one than the other. It is purely an emotionally-driven bias because the majority of people never grow up and still expect some power out there that’s high and mighty (a lot like their parents were as a child), to take care of them. God is always seen as “the father”, not as your buddy who you can share a beer with.
 
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dhh712

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You showed no evidence that you actually checked Hughy Ross's website.
So, why should I continue here.
Just a waste of time.
And there's plenty of evidence besides this one, if Romanov would bother to search it out. But, he has faith--and an amazing one at that!--in the scientists and philosophers who have convinced him that religion is illogical. Well, he will find out soon enough that that is not true.

And it is a waste of time to speak to an atheist who's mind is set against God. Maybe in time the Lord will soften his or her heart. We can pray for it. Someone apparently prayed for my heart to be softened--I was once about as hardened an atheist as he was--so it is definitely possible, as it all things with God are!

TCS Lewis’ trilemma of Jesus being either a liar, lunatic, or lord. The problem with his argument it’s that it’s a false trichotomy. There can be a fourth option and that’s that Jesus was a legend. Maybe Jesus didn’t intend to lie, he was misunderstood. Or perhaps Jesus was totally overblown by his followers to a God-like status. Or just maybe Jesus was never real to begin with.

Actually that's not what he said, or should have said if he actually did say that. He is saying that if someone does believe that the Bible is true based on that evidence of the account of Jesus' life which would be taken as verified facts given that person's belief that whatever the Bible states is factual those are indeed the only three conclusions you can make about Jesus. Because if Jesus didn't intend to lie, then he was deranged; what he says is clear so it's not misunderstood (of course you do have those unitarians who don't believe Jesus was God but we who do have over and over again provided overwhelming evidence from God's word that it is what He is saying, no need to hash that debate up all over again here); since the biblical account is believed to be factual then the second and third option is not possible either since the account is not over-blown nor was he not real to begin with. If you throw out that the Bible contains factual information in its entirety then yes you can have dozens upon dozens of ideas of what Jesus may or may not have been, there's no way it can be limited to just those three options.
 
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TheOneHeLoves

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The dichotomy of there either being a creator or no creator is a false dichotomy because we haven’t ruled out all other explanations. The argument rests safely in our ignorance of the universe.

It’s like saying, “I can’t explain the universe, science can’t explain everything, therefore God!” To me that’s very easy to do, which is inserting God into a gap in our understanding. But if we did that with everything from earthquakes to lightning, we wouldn’t be where we’re at today.

As much order as there is in this universe, there is also a lot of chaos which is why the intelligent design argument is flawed.

I will actually steelman your argument here and quote CS Lewis’ trilemma of Jesus being either a liar, lunatic, or lord. The problem with his argument it’s that it’s a false trichotomy. There can be a fourth option and that’s that Jesus was a legend. Maybe Jesus didn’t intend to lie, he was misunderstood. Or perhaps Jesus was totally overblown by his followers to a God-like status. Or just maybe Jesus was never real to begin with.

Many Christians make the mistake of assuming that atheists believe that the universe came from nothing and that’s how their argument of “I don’t have as much faith as an atheist” came to be. I personally don’t believe the universe came from nothing because I have no way of proving it.
The Holy Bible isn't just stories like greek mythology. No the stories are actually historical accounts that have been proven. just because you don't know history doesn't mean it didn't happen. Every religion, faith that has done research has seen that Jesus was a real person and the crucified on the cross in the manner it was stated. They just still chose whether they want to believe He is God or not. You have your choice and maybe you weren't chosen to be a child of God. You seem to be fine with that so why argue or debate.
 

farouk

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And there's plenty of evidence besides this one, if Romanov would bother to search it out. But, he has faith--and an amazing one at that!--in the scientists and philosophers who have convinced him that religion is illogical. Well, he will find out soon enough that that is not true.

And it is a waste of time to speak to an atheist who's mind is set against God. Maybe in time the Lord will soften his or her heart. We can pray for it. Someone apparently prayed for my heart to be softened--I was once about as hardened an atheist as he was--so it is definitely possible, as it all things with God are!



Actually that's not what he said, or should have said if he actually did say that. He is saying that if someone does believe that the Bible is true based on that evidence of the account of Jesus' life which would be taken as verified facts given that person's belief that whatever the Bible states is factual those are indeed the only three conclusions you can make about Jesus. Because if Jesus didn't intend to lie, then he was deranged; what he says is clear so it's not misunderstood (of course you do have those unitarians who don't believe Jesus was God but we who do have over and over again provided overwhelming evidence from God's word that it is what He is saying, no need to hash that debate up all over again here); since the biblical account is believed to be factual then the second and third option is not possible either since the account is not over-blown nor was he not real to begin with. If you throw out that the Bible contains factual information in its entirety then yes you can have dozens upon dozens of ideas of what Jesus may or may not have been, there's no way it can be limited to just those three options.
@dhh712 Your post reminds me of Hebrews 11:3...:

"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

...and of Hebrews 11:6 also:

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
 

atpollard

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God is not even a subtle object, God transcends space and time which makes all arguments for God’s existence unimportant. We are literally talking about something that exists while at the same time being completely beyond our grasp, it’s silly.
"God transcends space and time"
I agree, however "transcend" means "to be prior to, beyond, and above (the universe or material existence)". That definition precludes material existence acting on or controlling "God" but it does not preclude "God" acting on or controlling material existence. [I am simply pointing out the logical consequences of the actual definitions of YOUR chosen terms.] Once again, we return to the "GRAVITY ANALOGY" ... matter cannot "control" gravity, but gravity can control matter. Gravity transcends material existence (but not space and time).

"which makes all arguments for God’s existence unimportant."
Why? How does the transcendent nature of God make all arguments UNIMPORTANT ("lacking in importance : not important : minor, trivial")?
Questions of "First Cause" alone would seem to make arguments for and against the existence of God IMPORTANT ("marked by or indicative of significant worth or consequence"). When one adds in questions of "life after death" and "purpose/meaninglessness of human existence", the "Question of God" becomes of first importance.

"We are literally talking about something that exists while at the same time being completely beyond our grasp"
Technically a half-truth. I agree that God exists (frankly, even prehistoric man acknowledged that fundamental reality in their burial rituals). It is also true that finite beings can never know everything about an infinite being (that "transcend" thing, again). However, God is not completely inscrutable. We can know about God what God has revealed about himself. Here is a short example:

Romans 1:18-21 [NASB20]
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasonings, and their senseless hearts were darkened.
  • ETERNAL POWER: First Cause tells us that SOMETHING caused the UNIVERSE to exist. From science we know: A beginning singularity of unimaginable power that caused matter to form from energy, elements to form from matter and Time-Space to expand at the speed of light. This "uncaused cause" must posses great power and it must have existed "before" the singularity event to be the cause of the event.
  • DIVINE NATURE: As mentioned previously, every culture in every location and at every time (including pre-history) has an innate understanding that death is "wrong" and that there is something beyond the "physical now". Some people groups might invent a story about an invisible realm and something after death to comfort themselves ... but all people groups without exception? As a scientist, what is more likely, a 100% correlation with a causality or "the mother of all coincidences"? The theological term is Imago Dei (Latin: "Image of God"). People are born with an innate (apriori) knowledge that God exists because we are created in His image. Atheists make a conscious choice to suppress that knowledge.
"it’s silly"
Once again, Why? Another conclusion that seems just irrational and emotional unfounded opinion that does not logically follow from the prior statement. What is SILLY ("exhibiting or indicative of a lack of common sense or sound judgment: weak in intellect: playfully lighthearted and amusing: trifling, frivolous") about "talking about something that exists while at the same time being completely beyond our grasp"? Is it "silly" to discuss the origin of life since that is currently "completely beyond our grasp"?
 

Romanov2488

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And there's plenty of evidence besides this one, if Romanov would bother to search it out. But, he has faith--and an amazing one at that!--in the scientists and philosophers who have convinced him that religion is illogical. Well, he will find out soon enough that that is not true.

And it is a waste of time to speak to an atheist who's mind is set against God. Maybe in time the Lord will soften his or her heart. We can pray for it. Someone apparently prayed for my heart to be softened--I was once about as hardened an atheist as he was--so it is definitely possible, as it all things with God are!



Actually that's not what he said, or should have said if he actually did say that. He is saying that if someone does believe that the Bible is true based on that evidence of the account of Jesus' life which would be taken as verified facts given that person's belief that whatever the Bible states is factual those are indeed the only three conclusions you can make about Jesus. Because if Jesus didn't intend to lie, then he was deranged; what he says is clear so it's not misunderstood (of course you do have those unitarians who don't believe Jesus was God but we who do have over and over again provided overwhelming evidence from God's word that it is what He is saying, no need to hash that debate up all over again here); since the biblical account is believed to be factual then the second and third option is not possible either since the account is not over-blown nor was he not real to begin with. If you throw out that the Bible contains factual information in its entirety then yes you can have dozens upon dozens of ideas of what Jesus may or may not have been, there's no way it can be limited to just those three options.
It is fallacious to assume that all atheists hate God or are hardened against God which is what I see among many Christians. I cannot be hardened against something that lacks evidence. At best, atheists are hardened against the effects or consequences of belief in a god such as homophobia, misogyny, fear mongering of a hell, etc. I can be hardened against Putin, I can be hardened against Hitler, but I cannot be hardened against a god…that would be silly.

I have thrown out the Bible as containing factual information. At best one can say that the Bible is metaphorically true, but literally false. Passing off the Bible as being on the same level as a biology book is a grave mistake. People living until 900 years old, the earth having been around for 6000 years, a flood where an ark that was built included 2 species of every animal….all of these lack evidence.
 

Behold

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saying things such as God is good or loving is also inaccurate because according to believers, we are limited humans. It’s a convenient copout because it involves an unfalsifiable claim

Only a fool would believe that the offer of God's Son for the sin of humanity, = for each and every sinner, .... is not proof of God's love.

Would you give your child's life for someone like you, Romanov2488?

God already did.
 

Romanov2488

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"God transcends space and time"
I agree, however "transcend" means "to be prior to, beyond, and above (the universe or material existence)". That definition precludes material existence acting on or controlling "God" but it does not preclude "God" acting on or controlling material existence. [I am simply pointing out the logical consequences of the actual definitions of YOUR chosen terms.] Once again, we return to the "GRAVITY ANALOGY" ... matter cannot "control" gravity, but gravity can control matter. Gravity transcends material existence (but not space and time).

"which makes all arguments for God’s existence unimportant."
Why? How does the transcendent nature of God make all arguments UNIMPORTANT ("lacking in importance : not important : minor, trivial")?
Questions of "First Cause" alone would seem to make arguments for and against the existence of God IMPORTANT ("marked by or indicative of significant worth or consequence"). When one adds in questions of "life after death" and "purpose/meaninglessness of human existence", the "Question of God" becomes of first importance.

"We are literally talking about something that exists while at the same time being completely beyond our grasp"
Technically a half-truth. I agree that God exists (frankly, even prehistoric man acknowledged that fundamental reality in their burial rituals). It is also true that finite beings can never know everything about an infinite being (that "transcend" thing, again). However, God is not completely inscrutable. We can know about God what God has revealed about himself. Here is a short example:

Romans 1:18-21 [NASB20]
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasonings, and their senseless hearts were darkened.
  • ETERNAL POWER: First Cause tells us that SOMETHING caused the UNIVERSE to exist. From science we know: A beginning singularity of unimaginable power that caused matter to form from energy, elements to form from matter and Time-Space to expand at the speed of light. This "uncaused cause" must posses great power and it must have existed "before" the singularity event to be the cause of the event.
  • DIVINE NATURE: As mentioned previously, every culture in every location and at every time (including pre-history) has an innate understanding that death is "wrong" and that there is something beyond the "physical now". Some people groups might invent a story about an invisible realm and something after death to comfort themselves ... but all people groups without exception? As a scientist, what is more likely, a 100% correlation with a causality or "the mother of all coincidences"? The theological term is Imago Dei (Latin: "Image of God"). People are born with an innate (apriori) knowledge that God exists because we are created in His image. Atheists make a conscious choice to suppress that knowledge.
"it’s silly"
Once again, Why? Another conclusion that seems just irrational and emotional unfounded opinion that does not logically follow from the prior statement. What is SILLY ("exhibiting or indicative of a lack of common sense or sound judgment: weak in intellect: playfully lighthearted and amusing: trifling, frivolous") about "talking about something that exists while at the same time being completely beyond our grasp"? Is it "silly" to discuss the origin of life since that is currently "completely beyond our grasp"?
There is a difference between discussing the origin of life, and making unfalsifiable claims without evidence about the origin of life. If religions were to say, “A god may have created the universe…” I would have no issue with it because it would be agnostic. But religions are not playful and lighthearted, they are dogmatic and exclusive, which is what makes them religions. It is literally looking for a black cat in a room that isn’t there and then claiming you found it.

Since God is transcendent, it’s impossible to know anything about that god. God speaking to us “to get to know him” in the form of the Bible flies in the face of his transcendent nature. Is God transcendent or immanent?

And regarding your comparison using gravity…gravity is a theory.
 
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Romanov2488

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Only a fool would believe that the offer of God's Son for the sin of humanity, = for each and every sinner, .... is not proof of God's love.

Would you give your child's life for someone like you, Romanov2488?

God already did.
The point of that was that believers contradict themselves by saying that God is beyond our grasp and at the same time turning around and defining God as loving, a father, etc.

Now when something bad happens in the life of a believer, you would be hard pressed to hear them say that whatever happened is due to God’s love…but now that God works in “mysterious ways”.

For example, say someone loses their ability to walk. Do you think they’re going to say, “God loves me, that is why I can no longer walk.”? Of course not. Instead they’re more inclined to say, “It’s ok if I can no longer walk, because one day I’ll be walking with God.” They will do anything in their power to avoid stripping God of his loving nature with rationalizations for all other tragedies.

A girl survived a plane crash while everyone else died. Believers will say, “She was saved by the hand of God!” I would say, “What was God doing with his other hand?”
 
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atpollard

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"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to." -C.S. Lewis​

Mere Christianity (Book II, Part 3. THE SHOCKING ALTERNATIVE, last paragraph)
 

atpollard

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It is literally looking for a black cat in a room that isn’t there and then claiming you found it.
Am I the only one that sees the irony of a man standing in a room full of people that claim to have already found the "black cat" and insisting that HE ALONE is correct that "the room" containing the black cat "isn't there!" so there is no black cat.

Perhaps if you were less certain that there was no room, you might get off your "seat of the mockers" and actually LOOK for the room. If you look for the room, you might find the room and improve your chances of finding the cat in the room.

As long as you sit in the corner screaming "THERE IS NO ROOM!", you will never find the black cat.

Psalm 14:1
Only fools say in their hearts,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt, and their actions are evil;
not one of them does good!
 

Charlie24

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The point of that was that believers contradict themselves by saying that God is beyond our grasp and at the same time turning around and defining God as loving, a father, etc.

Now when something bad happens in the life of a believer, you would be hard pressed to hear them say that whatever happened is due to God’s love…but now that God works in “mysterious ways”.

For example, say someone loses their ability to walk. Do you think they’re going to say, “God loves me, that is why I can no longer walk.”? Of course not. Instead they’re more inclined to say, “It’s ok if I can no longer walk, because one day I’ll be walking with God.” They will do anything in their power to avoid stripping God of his loving nature with rationalizations for all other tragedies.

A girl survived a plane crash while everyone else died. Believers will say, “She was saved by the hand of God!” I would say, “What was God doing with his other hand?”
God has called man by faith, that is not going to change.

Why bother yourself arguing with believers when you know our faith is in things that can't be seen with the eye?

Unlike you, when we heard the Gospel we believed it, the proof of believing is in the heart of man, it's spiritual.

We don't expect you to understand that, in fact, you can't understand that, the Gospel had no effect on you.

If you are not effected by the fact that Christ came to this world in order to save us from our sin, then there is no hope for you.

So why argue something you have chosen to ignore?
 

farouk

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Am I the only one that sees the irony of a man standing in a room full of people that claim to have already found the "black cat" and insisting that HE ALONE is correct that "the room" containing the black cat "isn't there!" so there is no black cat.

Perhaps if you were less certain that there was no room, you might get off your "seat of the mockers" and actually LOOK for the room. If you look for the room, you might find the room and improve your chances of finding the cat in the room.

As long as you sit in the corner screaming "THERE IS NO ROOM!", you will never find the black cat.

Psalm 14:1
Only fools say in their hearts,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt, and their actions are evil;
not one of them does good!
@atpollard
Hebrews 11:6 comes to mind:

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
 
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Romanov2488

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Am I the only one that sees the irony of a man standing in a room full of people that claim to have already found the "black cat" and insisting that HE ALONE is correct that "the room" containing the black cat "isn't there!" so there is no black cat.

Perhaps if you were less certain that there was no room, you might get off your "seat of the mockers" and actually LOOK for the room. If you look for the room, you might find the room and improve your chances of finding the cat in the room.

As long as you sit in the corner screaming "THERE IS NO ROOM!", you will never find the black cat.

Psalm 14:1
Only fools say in their hearts,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt, and their actions are evil;
not one of them does good!
Moving the goal posts and strawmanning. I never said there was no room, and I said there is no cat because those claiming to have found it have failed to provide the evidence for it. You failing to provide evidence of the black cat does not mean that I am correct and that you are wrong, that’s a deflection. It is the religious that have an issue with providing evidence to substantiate their claims. They have scrambled and scrambled for millennia in doing so, yet have always came up short. If there was truly so much overwhelming evidence, then there wouldn’t be so many nonbelievers. So what to do next? Blame the nonbelievers themselves for not accepting the “evidence”, essentially ad hominem. Arguments such as “atheists don’t see the evidence because their criteria for it is flawed” is more strawmanning at the believer’s convenience for failing to provide evidence.

If I say that there is a dragon in my garage, most believers would ask me for evidence. That demonstrates that they know what evidence means in the conventional sense. But when it comes to their own religion, they choose to be dishonest in holding their own god to the same criteria of proof by either resorting to ad hominems pertaining to nonbelievers, moving the goalposts as to what evidence really “is”, etc.
 

Behold

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The point of that was that believers contradict themselves by saying that God is beyond our grasp

You are misinformed by people who are fake believers.
Lots of those around...

Here is what a believer will tell you.

Jesus said...."if you've SEEN ME, you've seen the Father".

'I and my Father are ONE".

The born again, refer to God as DADDY. "abba".... and Daddy is not some "out there cosmic force field"..
He is not some spiritual unobtainium.....
"Daddy" lives inside all the born again, and He's just like Jesus, and Jesus is the same as God.

So, when we read about Jesus, the deeds, the love, the compassion, the mercy, the sacrifice of the Cross of Christ, we SEE GOD clearly.
 

atpollard

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I never said there was no room
Really?

It is literally looking for a black cat in a room that isn’t there and then claiming you found it.

We found the "cat" (God the Son, Jesus the Christ) and you claim "the room isn't there" (any "god" is unknowable and no more reality than a "winged rabbit" or a "dragon in your garage"). If you were willing to seek the room (a god) then you might find the cat (Jesus the Christ). Since you refuse to even believe in the possibility of a room (a god), you have no hope of discovering the cat (God the Son). Fortunately for you:

Matthew 19:25-26 [NLT]
The disciples were astounded. "Then who in the world can be saved?" they asked.
Jesus looked at them intently and said, "Humanly speaking, it is impossible. But with God everything is possible."
 

farouk

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Really?



We found the "cat" (God the Son, Jesus the Christ) and you claim "the room isn't there" (any "god" is unknowable and no more reality than a "winged rabbit" or a "dragon in your garage"). If you were willing to seek the room (a god) then you might find the cat (Jesus the Christ). Since you refuse to even believe in the possibility of a room (a god), you have no hope of discovering the cat (God the Son). Fortunately for you:

Matthew 19:25-26 [NLT]
The disciples were astounded. "Then who in the world can be saved?" they asked.
Jesus looked at them intently and said, "Humanly speaking, it is impossible. But with God everything is possible."
@atpollard Good quote there. I'm also reminded of the B B Warfield quote about things in the Old Testament not seen until the light of the New Testament is shed on them, but they were there all the time...........
 

Romanov2488

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Really?



We found the "cat" (God the Son, Jesus the Christ) and you claim "the room isn't there" (any "god" is unknowable and no more reality than a "winged rabbit" or a "dragon in your garage"). If you were willing to seek the room (a god) then you might find the cat (Jesus the Christ). Since you refuse to even believe in the possibility of a room (a god), you have no hope of discovering the cat (God the Son). Fortunately for you:

Matthew 19:25-26 [NLT]
The disciples were astounded. "Then who in the world can be saved?" they asked.
Jesus looked at them intently and said, "Humanly speaking, it is impossible. But with God everything is possible."
I meant that the black cat isn’t there, not the room itself.
1668619087896.jpeg
 

ScottA

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Feb 24, 2011
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You would be pointing to the top shelf because you actually know the winged rabbit is there and have seen it. But in this context, you have never seen a winged rabbit just like God can’t be seen.

Or simply replace winged rabbit with all the other deities and gods of other religions. Same idea, just different names and labels. Shiva, Shakti, spirits in Shinto, Allah. None of those have been seen and the evidence is lacking. A believer would agree with me that there is no evidence of the Muslim god, but they would not say the same about their Christian god. After all, they’re both transcendent and can’t be seen. If one is to be consistent in their logic, they would say the same about both.
Again you are wrong. You have no way of knowing if I have seen a winged rabbit or God. Your statement is without evidence and only based on your assumption--it's you projecting your own ignorance.

The fact is I have seen God.

As for evidence, again you show your ignorance. It doesn't work that way. Only those who are born of the evidence (God) can know it; and in order to be born of God one must be conceived, a two part union of which you apparently have not stepped up to. That much is evident.