2 Peter 3:10 The Big Whoosh

[rwb]

Then explain why the kingdoms of earth are become His kingdoms at the 7th Trumpet.

Revelation 11:15

No one is denying the reign of Christ now. Amil deny the coming Day of the Lord, that is prophecied to start at the conclusion of the 7th Trumpet. The will of the Lord will be in earth as it is in heaven, at the 7th Trumpet.

Building a kingdom is one thing. Enjoying that kingdom is the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord that is coming when the seventh trumpet begins to sound is the last day of this Church and Gospel age. The seventh trumpet does not usher in more time on this earth that premillennialists imagine will last ONE thousand years. The sounding of the seventh trumpet is when time or opportunity to be saved on this earth shall be finished.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I find it hard to believe that one who professes to be in Christ would not know the Church in this world must endure "great tribulation" until the end of this age??? Every tribulation and trial is great for the believer who called to keep the faith even unto death!

Romans 5:3-6 (KJV) And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Ephesians 3:13 (KJV) Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

To add to what you're saying:

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I still don't understand your objection.

This is truly hopeless. It does not seem like you are trying very hard to understand what I'm saying. Regardless, I'm tired of trying. Thanks, anyway.

 

[rwb]

Yes, I don't know what your position is? I was just referring to the fact that many different opinions exist about what the "Day of the Lord" is. And this can affect one's eschatological outlook. Thank you.

I agree! IMHO the different opinions exist because Christians read the Old Testament prophets as though their prophesy only begins when Christ comes again on the final Day of the Lord, when Christ will usher in this imagined ONE thousand more literal years of time on this earth. To miss fulfillment of the prophecies of old at Pentecost is to miss the Day of the Lord that came then according to both Joel and Luke.
You're welcome!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well, think about it. You say it potentially can happen in their lifetime. But it didn't happen in their lifetime. Does that make Peter a liar? Did Peter give his readers false hope?

Of course not! It's true that it could have happened in the lifetime of any of his readers because no one knows the day or hour Jesus will come (Matt 24:36, Matt 25:13). Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it wasn't possible for it to happen by now. But, that is up to the Lord to determine when it will happen, obviously.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We agree on many things.

LOL. No, we do not.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Disagree. Christ Jesus’ Kingdom “shall be “OF this World”.

But He said it is not of this world. He never said it ever would be. You should accept what He said.

“OF” this World, “IS” expressly, a reference to “MORTAL men STILL occupying THIS World.

No, His kingdom not being of this world means that it's not a worldly kingdom. Wordly kingdoms are temporary and evil. It's similar to how Jesus said His followers are not of this world. We're in the world, but we don't follow the evil ways of this world. Neither does His kingdom.

 

[rwb]

Did the Day of the Lord come as a thief in the night in 4BC at the birth of Jesus?

You are asking if we live in the Day of the Lord, yet how do you reconcile what Peter said in 2 Peter 3? If Peter was in the Day of the Lord, he would not be looking for it to come as a thief in the night.

Once again "completed" is not the point of the NHNE. The point that you reject is Christ sitting as King on a throne in Jerusalem for a thousand years. The kingdom is full after 1,000 years and all those people are born and enjoy that completed kingdom. Then after 1,000 years, God still allows Satan to walk among all those new people on earth, and deceive them into following Satan. No one in Adam's dead corruptible flesh should understand that. But that is what God placed in His Word. We can only accept it as written.

Yes the Day of the Lord did come when the promised Messiah came to earth a man. The Day of the Lord did not come with power from above until the Spirit was poured out at Pentecost. It is through the power of the Holy Spirit that the Church on earth finds great success in proclaiming the Gospel of Christ unto all the earth, and through the Gospel the Kingdom of God in heaven is being built.

Peter with all the New Covenant writers live after the advent of Christ coming in His Day as the prophets foretell He would. So they don't look for the Day of the Lord to come, knowing it already has come, the New Covenant saints look for the final Day of the Lord that will come when the last trumpet begins to sound that time shall be no more.

The holy city, new Jerusalem is currently in heaven (Rev 21) that is from where Christ is currently ruling and reigning over His creation. The Kingdom of God in heaven will be complete when the seventh trumpet begins to sound AFTER a thousand symbolic years has ended.

The statement of yours below that I've quoted is without a doubt one of the most abs urd, bizarre statements I've ever heard from one who professes to be a Christian???? If you find this nonsense in the Word of God, you should be able to provide where the verses are found from Scripture???

"Then after 1,000 years, God still allows Satan to walk among all those new people on earth, and deceive them into following Satan. No one in Adam's dead corruptible flesh should understand that. But that is what God placed in His Word. We can only accept it as written."

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't think Peter was suggesting that Pentecost was a fulfillment of Joel's prophecy.

I'm just shaking my head over here.

Acts 2:14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 “‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

This is what Peter said after the Holy Spirit came and filled many people there in Jerusalem and they began speaking in tongues and worshiping God and such and after some there were thinking that those people were drunk.

Peter said "this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel" and then he proceeded to quote Joel 2:28-32. When he said "this" he was obviously referring to what had just happened there with the Holy Spirit coming to dwell in many people there. So, how can you deny that what happened on the day of Pentecost was at least part of the fulfillment of the prophecy from Joel when Peter explicitly indicated that it was? Or are you just saying that it was not completely fulfilled at that time (which is not clear from what you said)? If so, then I would agree with that.

My view is that the prophecy began to be fulfilled at that time and has has an ongoing fufillment ever since. One of the things that Peter quoted from Joel is that all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved and that is obviously still happening today.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Day of the Lord that is coming when the seventh trumpet begins to sound is the last day of this Church and Gospel age. The seventh trumpet does not usher in more time on this earth that premillennialists imagine will last ONE thousand years. The sounding of the seventh trumpet is when time or opportunity to be saved on this earth shall be finished.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Also, the seventh trumpet signals the time when the dead will be judged.

Revelation 11:
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”...18 The nations were angry, and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small—and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

When does the judging of the dead happen? It's described here which we all agree will occur AFTER the thousand years:

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

 

[rwb]

Also, the seventh trumpet signals the time when the dead will be judged.

Revelation 11:
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”...18 The nations were angry, and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small—and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

When does the judging of the dead happen? It's described here which we all agree will occur AFTER the thousand years:

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books I were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

Total agreement! Well said!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Total agreement! Well said!

Thank you, but I didn't even say much. I think the scriptures speak for themselves.

 

[Keraz]

"Then after 1,000 years, God still allows Satan to walk among all those new people on earth, and deceive them into following Satan. No one in Adam's dead corruptible flesh should understand that. But that is what God placed in His Word. We can only accept it as written

rwb may object, but basically that is what Revelation 20:7-10 is saying. It IS Bible teaching!
However, it does not say: ALL the people will be deceived. It does say they will be a 'countless host', but after the thousand years, the worlds population will be up to the billions again.

I want to reiterate that there are two literal Days of the Lord to come.
The first will be the Lord's terrible day of fiery wrath; the event which will commence all the end time prophesied things.
Then, Jesus will Return and reign for the next thousand years.
So:
NEXT; a Day of wrath, prophesied in over 100 Bible verses. THEN the Day of glory, as described in 1 Thess 4:16, Revelation 19:11-21

 

[CadyandZoe]

You stated the NHNE takes place in "All Believer Lifetimes" Wrong

Don't pretend like you don't know of your claim made

I can see you are in attack mode. Unfortunately, I am in conversation mode. Please consider what I am saying and think about it very carefully.

Let me take you step-by-step through the story.

Take Joe for instance; he is born in to a poor family who live in Oklahoma. After he finishes 6th grade he gets a job working for the railroad. Eventually, he works his way up to engineer. One day he dies at the young age of 45. During all that time, he never experiences the NHNE. One would think, for him, the NHNE didn't come in his lifetime. But wait a minute. Joe was raised by Christian parents and Joe gave his life to Jesus Christ as a young man. At the final trumpet, Joe is raised to be with the Lord forever. At some time after the resurrection, God brings about the NHNE; that is, Joe is alive the moment when God brings about the NHNE.

Did Joe witness the inauguration of the NHNE in his lifetime? I think so. What about you?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Because (The Beast) seen in Revelation 13:5 causes The Great Tribulation, and he is in power 42 months or 3.5 years, pretty simple

You say Revelation 13:5 mentions the GT?

 

[CadyandZoe]

All the dead will be resurrected on the last day at the second coming (The End) as you have been show several times

So if believers are resurrected on the last day, won't they be alive on the last day to witness the inauguration of the NHNE?

 

[CadyandZoe]

eternal
aion; a space of time, an age

Right. Also, I refer to eternal life as "aionic" life because not only does it last a really, really long time, but it has a unique and special quality about it. Perfect love, perfect righteousness, perfect goodness.

 

[Timtofly]

The abomination of desolation spoken by Daniel began when Christ came and His people rejected Him, and their house was left unto them desolate. (Mt 23:38) Jerusalem and the Temple was the holy place unto God. And the destruction in AD 70 was written to be an example for Christ's Church as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the earth. AOD according to Daniel came to the nation when the promised Messiah was cut off. The cross, the ultimate betrayal by Daniel's people, the leaders of the Jews ceased to be the holy people unto God.

Daniel 9:26-27 (KJV) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This warning of AOD is written for His disciples, the Church on earth as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the earth. The same thing that happened to the nation of Israel can happen to the Church. The Church too can reject Christ. This is clear from all the warnings in Scripture. When the Church rejects Christ it too has become an abomination unto God and the result is the Church becomes a desolation without light and life, a church in name only, just as Jerusalem is today. Just as the holy people, city and temple had the light of God taken from them, so too Christ warns His Church on earth that we too can fall when we reject our first love which is rejection of Christ. Unlike the Jews of old who refused to repent, the Church on earth is called again and again to repent and do what we are called for, build the Kingdom that is through the love of Christ.

Revelation 2:4-5 (KJV) Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Desolation is not the same thing as abomination. Your opinion is not correct. After the Cross, there was no Holy place on earth to set up the Abomination of desolation.

Yes the house of Jacob was left desolate. That is why there has been no AoD fulfilled.

It can only be fulfilled, when a new Holy place is placed on earth, for there to be an AoD placed in that Holy Place.

The 42 months in Revelation 11 and 13 is not the Great Tribulation. It is the AoD. The Great Tribulation is the first 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders.

Only after the 7th Trumpet starts to sound, declaring the Great Tribulation is over, can there be an AoD. No one can say how long the Great Tribulation will last. There is no time frame for the Trumpets and Thunders.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Sorry but that is simply hog wash. Luke could not have been any more clear about fulfillment of Joel's prophetic words of the Day of the Lord coming at Pentecost. You agree there is a partial fulfillment with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, but then deny the Day of the Lord Luke quotes from the prophet Joel is the Day of the Lord he foretells would come???? Either the Day of the Lord came at Pentecost as the prophet Joel foretells or it did not.

Clarity is in the eye of the beholder. We have all experienced this. We, myself included, think our own interpretation is clearly taught in the scripture. And we should always think so until proven otherwise. I get that. I'm simply relating my own point of view for you to consider. If it isn't convincing then don't change your mind simply because I said it.

With regard to Peter's statement, bear in mind that HE doesn't say the prophecy was fulfilled. We are reading that into his words. What he actually says is, "this is that" drawing a comparison between them. Now, your interpretation of the Acts passage is certainly possible, taken by itself. But once we go and look at Joel ourselves, we find significant details that Peter left out. This invites us to think a bit more about what Peter was getting at.

All flesh! Meaning salvation is unto "whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord", not only Jews, but people of every nation on earth.

This is true in a general way as Paul has said. "Whosoever" refers to all those, whether Jew or Gentile who call upon the name of the Lord. This is a true statement.

Nonetheless, Joel's prophecy is concerned with those Jews who make the trip to Jerusalem to call upon the name of the Lord, not in regarding salvation from sin, but in regard to deliverance from death -- whether death should come from starvation or incineration.

That moment will be a test of faith for the people of Israel, who live during that time. Those who have faith will come to Jerusalem when the Lord Calls. Those who don't have faith will stay behind. Those who stay behind will die; those who come to Jerusalem will survive.

 

[CadyandZoe]

This Is A Prime Example Why Your Claims Aren't Taken Seriously

The (Two Witnesses) bring God's judgment upon (The Beast) and wicked world through ",Plagues", a far cry from your claims of witnessing to Israel "Big Smiles"!

Revelation 11:6 & 10KJV
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

In the book of Revelation, the word "earth" refers to the nation of Israel.