Jesus was made Lord and Christ at His resurrection

[Wrangler]

So I guess I will have to ask you to state it scripturally where God accepts multiple faiths sir.

You keep incorrectly using the term faith when it is denomination. The Scriptural support abounds.

The entire ministry of Paul is a clear denomination, with a mandate to focus on the Gentiles. While he interacted little with the Apostles who actually walked with Jesus, he corrected them when he did. This indicates a stress in doctrinal divide, specifically in being a respecter of persons when eating.

Then there is Jesus rebuking the Apostles when they told another denomination to stop who were casting out demons in Jesus name even though not affiliated with Jesus, Paul or the other Apostles. Jesus said if they are not against us, they are for us. One can hardly imagine stronger endorsement for denomination than that.

 

[keithr]

The reality is that they asked if Jesus was the Son of God, and Jesus affirmed that point. That Jesus is The Son of God for the purpose of His death and resurrection of His flesh is an obvious point The Scriptures make, especially in the Book of Hebrews.

Jesus is the Son of God because he is the only-begotten son of God! He was anointed by God to be the redeemer of mankind, and that was the purpose of him being made a man and being sent to the earth, to sacrifice his soul as a substitute for Adam, and to pay the redemption price. He didn't become the Son of God for just one specific purpose, no more than God became God for a specific purpose! He is who he is.

But at the same time, the Scriptures point to Jesus as GOD The Son, and not just a man of flesh. Even in the below Scripture, Jesus is claiming He is The "I AM", one of GOD's sacred names. He did the same claim at the end of John 8 also.

Mark 14:61-62
61 But He held His peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked Him, and said unto Him, "Art Thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?"
62 And Jesus said, "I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven."

That is ridiculous! Jesus was not saying God's name, he was simply answering the question they asked (most likely responding in Aramaic, not Hebrew). If you ask me if I am a Christian and I respond with "I am", you would not assume that meant that I was saying God's name and therefore declaring that I was God. So why would you make that assumption about Jesus correctly answering a similar question? Do you also assume Paul was claiming to be God when he said, in 1 Corinthians 15:10, "But by the grace of God I am what I am"?

And the Book of Luke records that same event with His saying this...

Luke 22:67-69
67 "Art Thou the Christ? tell us." And He said unto them, "If I tell you, ye will not believe:
68 And if I also ask you, ye will not answer Me, nor let Me go.
69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God."

You left out:

(70) They all said, “Are you then the Son of God?” He said to them, “You say it, because I am.”​

Again it would not make sense to say God's name in that sentence. He was simply answering the question.

Lord Jesus told the blind scribes and Pharisees who He is, yet they refused to believe, just as the blind Pharisee types still do today...

John 8:58
58 Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

Again, Jesus is answering their questions and is not inserting God's name into a sentence. The orginal question and Jesus' response was:

(25) They said therefore to him, “Who are you?” Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning.​

(26) I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you. However he who sent me is true; and the things which I heard from him, these I say to the world.”​

(27) They didn’t understand that he spoke to them about the Father.​

Then:

(30) As he spoke these things, many believed in him.​

(31) Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, ...​

So the rest of the conversation was with those that believed him that he was God's Son. He went on to say:

(42) Therefore Jesus said to them, “If God were your father, you would love me, for I came out and have come from God. For I haven’t come of myself, but he sent me.​

So Jesus was making it clear that he was not God.

(53) Are you greater than our father, Abraham, who died? The prophets died. Who do you make yourself out to be?”​

(54) Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say that he is our God.​

(55) You have not known him, but I know him. If I said, ‘I don’t know him,’ I would be like you, a liar. But I know him, and keep his word.​

(56) Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day. He saw it, and was glad.”​

(57) The Jews therefore said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”​

(58) Jesus said to them, “Most certainly, I tell you, before Abraham came into existence, I am.”​

Jesus answered the question about whethere or not he had seen Abraham, who had died long ago, and Jesus was less than 50 years old as a man, and so he could not have seen him while he was a man. He replied, that he had been in existence before Abraham - a better translation would be "before Abraham came into existence, I have been", or "I have existed". The same Greek word eimi is translated that way in John 14:9 (WEB):

(9) Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you such a long time, and do you not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father. How do you say, ‘Show us the Father?’​

 

[Davy]

Jesus is the Son of God because he is the only-begotten son of God! He was anointed by God to be the redeemer of mankind, and that was the purpose of him being made a man and being sent to the earth, to sacrifice his soul as a substitute for Adam, and to pay the redemption price. He didn't become the Son of God for just one specific purpose, no more than God became God for a specific purpose! He is who he is.

Jesus is GOD The Son. Always has been, always will be. He was NEVER created.

The Hebrews 2:7 verse is ANSWERED by the Hebrews 2:9 verse, so you cannot just quote Hebrews 2:7 and try to ISOLATE IT away from verse 9, like you have attempted to do!

Heb 2:9
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
KJV

That means His flesh ONLY was made, NOT HIS SPIRIT which is everlasting.

 

[keithr]

Jesus is GOD The Son. Always has been, always will be. He was NEVER created.

The Hebrews 2:7 verse is ANSWERED by the Hebrews 2:9 verse, so you cannot just quote Hebrews 2:7 and try to ISOLATE IT away from verse 9, like you have attempted to do!

I never referred to Hebrews 2! However, I'll explain it to you. :) We need interpret it in context, so here's more of the passage:

Hebrews 2:5-9 (WEB):

(5) For he didn’t subject the world to come, of which we speak, to angels.​

(6) But one has somewhere testified, saying, “What is man, that you think of him? Or the son of man, that you care for him?​

(7) You made him a little lower than the angels. You crowned him with glory and honor.​

(8) You have put all things in subjection under his feet.” For in that he subjected all things to him, he left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we don’t see all things subjected to him, yet.​

(9) But we see him who has been made a little lower than the angels, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God he should taste of death for everyone.​

Paul says that God didn't subject the world to angels, but to mankind, who are made a little lower than the angels. In verses 6 to 8 he is referring to Psalms 8 (WEB):

(3) When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have ordained;​

(4) what is man, that you think of him? What is the son of man, that you care for him?​

(5) For you have made him a little lower than the angels,and crowned him with glory and honor.​

(6) You make him ruler over the works of your hands. You have put all things under his feet:​

This is saying that all of mankind have been made "a little lower than the angels". Then in Hebrews 2:9 he says that Jesus, the Son of God, had also been made a man, and we now see that because of his suffering death as a man to pay the redemption price for everyone, God has now crowned Jesus with glory and honour.

Paul continues, still talking of Jesus:

(10) For it became him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many children to glory, to make the author of their salvation perfect through sufferings.​

(11) For both he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one, for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brothers,​

(12) saying, “I will declare your name to my brothers. Among the congregation I will sing your praise.”​

(13) Again, “I will put my trust in him.” Again, “Behold, here I am with the children whom God has given me.”​

(14) Since then the children have shared in flesh and blood, he also himself in the same way partook of the same, that through death he might bring to nothing him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,​

(15) and might deliver all of them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.​

(16) For most certainly, he doesn’t give help to angels, but he gives help to the offspring of Abraham.​

(17) Therefore he was obligated in all things to be made like his brothers, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make atonement for the sins of the people.​

(18) For in that he himself has suffered being tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.​

Paul says that Jesus calls Christians brothers, and that these are children of God which God has given to him - therefore if God has given Jesus something then Jesus can't be God!

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus is GOD The Son.

What verse in Scripture says that again?

 

[Wrangler]

That means His flesh ONLY was made, NOT HIS SPIRIT which is everlasting.

No, it doesn’t mean his Spirit is everlasting at all. The whole reason Jesus had to be baptized with God’s Spirit is because Jesus did not have it before that moment.

 

[marks]

But did you know that some beth-avens (houses of vanity) teach that we each can become 'a Christ', and those false churches claim to believe in Jesus Christ?

Christ's Apostles warned us especially for these last days about false prophets and seducing spirits.

Yes, there is much heresy out there, sorry to say!

Much love!

 

[Robert Gwin]

Further evidence to consider for those who deny America is a Christian nation.

That is certainly one I deny sir. No nation on either American continent is God's Kingdom.

 

[Robert Gwin]

You keep incorrectly using the term faith when it is denomination. The Scriptural support abounds.

The entire ministry of Paul is a clear denomination, with a mandate to focus on the Gentiles. While he interacted little with the Apostles who actually walked with Jesus, he corrected them when he did. This indicates a stress in doctrinal divide, specifically in being a respecter of persons when eating.

Then there is Jesus rebuking the Apostles when they told another denomination to stop who were casting out demons in Jesus name even though not affiliated with Jesus, Paul or the other Apostles. Jesus said if they are not against us, they are for us. One can hardly imagine stronger endorsement for denomination than that.

In your eyes sir Eph 4:5. Faith, denomination, church, religion, beliefs, etc all synonyms that apply sir.

There is one group of people that belong to God, they are identified in Scripture, or God has no right to judge those who are of a particular denomination that does not teach His ways, simple as that. You can debate this truth to eternity if you want Wrangler, but it is a simple fact as Eph 4:5 states.

 

[Wrangler]

That is certainly one I deny sir. No nation on either American continent is God's Kingdom.

Then you live in denial. Throughout this conversation you keep changing the subject. In this case from ‘Christian nation’ to ‘God's Kingdom.’

 

[Wrangler]

In your eyes sir Eph 4:5. Faith, denomination, church, religion, beliefs, etc all synonyms that apply sir.

That’s where we disagree. Have a good day.

 

[Davy]

That verse doesn't say anything in relation to Jesus' resurrection; it just says that it was God who made Jesus to be our Lord, and made Jesus the Messiah, i.e. it was God who anointed Jesus to become our saviour and our king. Just prior to this, in Acts 2:31, Peter said:

OK then, let's SEE the anti-Biblical garbage you have been spewing out of your mouth.

In your post #26 where you claimed to Derrick that Peter was not speaking about Jesus' resurrection in Acts 2, you show GROSS BIBLICAL IGNORANCE...

In Acts 2:31-32 Christ having been raised from the dead is EXACTLY the subject Peter is speaking there to remnants of the "house of Israel" out of those nations, on Pentecost.

So is it your business here to flat DENY BIBLE SCRIPTURE? Looks like it so far.

 

[Davy]

That doesn't answer Robert's question. To give more context to the verses that you quoted, Jesus had just said:

(6) Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me.​

(7) If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on, you know him, and have seen him.”​

meaning that Jesus' character was just like God's, so having known Jesus they also knew what kind of a person God is. The Greek word that's translated as 'know', ginosko, means, according to the Online Bible Greek Lexicon:

1) to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel​

1a) to become known​

2) to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of​

2a) to understand​

2b) to know​

3) Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman​

4) to become acquainted with, to know​

The Greek word translated as 'seen', horao, means, according to the Online Bible Greek Lexicon:

1) to see with the eyes​

2) to see with the mind, to perceive, know​

3) to see, i.e. become acquainted with by experience, to experience ​

4) to see, to look to​

4a) to take heed, beware​

4b) to care for, pay heed to​

5) I was seen, showed myself, appeared​

So by getting to know Jesus they had also perceived and experienced what God is like - loving, kind, compassionate, merciful and just.

Jesus then went on to say:

(10) Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works.​

(11) Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me; or else believe me for the very works’ sake.​

(12) Most certainly I tell you, he who believes in me, the works that I do, he will do also; and he will do greater works than these, because I am going to my Father.​

(13) Whatever you will ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.​

They had come to know God because it was God, Jesus' Father, who was speaking and working through His Son Jesus.

I think this is the answer that Robert was expecting:

John 17:1-8

(1) Jesus said these things, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said, “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may also glorify you;​

(2) even as you gave him authority over all flesh, so he will give eternal life to all whom you have given him.​

(3) This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.​

(4) I glorified you on the earth. I have accomplished the work which you have given me to do.​

(5) Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.​

(6) I revealed your name to the people whom you have given me out of the world. They were yours, and you have given them to me. They have kept your word.​

(7) Now they have known that all things whatever you have given me are from you,​

(8) for the words which you have given me I have given to them, and they received them, and knew for sure that I came from you, and they have believed that you sent me.​

NONE of those above verses address the REAL verses that YOU CANNOT REMOVE, but obviously would like to...

Revelation 1:8-11 - Jesus declares Himself as Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, the first and the last. This is the SAME declaration by The Father in Isaiah 41:4, Isaiah 44:6; Isaiah 48:12.

John 8:58 - Jesus calls Himself The "I AM", one of God's sacred names. And He purposefully did that, because the context there was His declaration that He saw Abraham back in Old Testament times. That was the context of His answer. And that is why those unbelieving Jews tried to stone Him there, because He pointed to Himself as God by declaring that, "Before Abraham was, I AM."

Matthew 1:21-23 - JESUS is declared as the Child of the Isaiah prophecy that would be born of a virgin. And one of His titles we are told is "Emmanuel" from that Isaiah 7 prophecy, which according to Matthew 1:23 means "God with us". That SEALS the Divinity of Jesus of Nazareth, The Christ.

Isaiah 9:6 - Declares The Son, the Child of Isaiah 7:14, as "The mighty God" and as "The everlasting Father".

Isa 9:6
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
KJV

Thus the unbelieving JEWS have NO EXCUSE. That Jesus of Nazareth IS THE CHRIST, THE IMMANUEL, AND THE CHILD AND SON of Isaiah 9:6, has NO defeat, not in spirit, not in words, and certainly not by unbelievers having sneaked into a Christian forum!

 

[keithr]

In your post #26 where you claimed to Derrick that Peter was not speaking about Jesus' resurrection in Acts 2, you show GROSS BIBLICAL IGNORANCE...

In Acts 2:31-32 Christ having been raised from the dead is EXACTLY the subject Peter is speaking there to remnants of the "house of Israel" out of those nations, on Pentecost.

Acts 2:36

(36) “Let all the house of Israel therefore know certainly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”​

I wrote that the verse that Robert quoted (verse 36) "doesn't say anything in relation to Jesus' resurrection". The subject of his post was that Jesus was made Christ when he was resurrected, but just because Peter spoke those words after Jesus' resurrection, that doesn't mean that God made Jesus the Christ when he resurrected him. Verses 30 - 32 say:

(30) Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, he would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,​

(31) he foreseeing this spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that his soul wasn’t left in Hades, and his flesh didn’t see decay.​

(32) This Jesus God raised up, to which we all are witnesses.​

These verses indicates that Jesus was the Christ before he was raised to life again.

(33) Being therefore exalted by the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this, which you now see and hear.​

(34) For David didn’t ascend into the heavens, but he says himself, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit by my right hand,​

(35) until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”’​

(36) “Let all the house of Israel therefore know certainly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”​

Peter was making the point that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit was proof that Jesus had been resurrected, and that during his ministry he had indeed been the Christ, as Jesus had claimed, and that God had now exalted Jesus to to be King - to sit on David's throne.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Then you live in denial. Throughout this conversation you keep changing the subject. In this case from ‘Christian nation’ to ‘God's Kingdom.’

You used the term Christian sir, which applies it to a religious nature, or in other words to God. And as I stated no nation on either American continent is God's Kingdom Wrangler, in fact when God's Kingdom comes, all those nations will cease to exist. Rev 16:14-16; Dan 2:44

 

[Robert Gwin]

That’s where we disagree. Have a good day.

That is great, now you define what the term "one faith" means in Eph 4:5. I say it is referring to another synonym of God's people the Way (Acts 9:2), what do you say it is referring to Wrangler?

 

[keithr]

NONE of those above verses address the REAL verses that YOU CANNOT REMOVE, but obviously would like to...

Are you suggesting that John 17:3, where Jesus says that the Father is the only true God, is not a real verse?!

Revelation 1:8-11 - Jesus declares Himself as Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, the first and the last. This is the SAME declaration by The Father in Isaiah 41:4, Isaiah 44:6; Isaiah 48:12.

You are assuming that Jesus said that in Revelation 1:8. However, it is actually God saying it:

WEB:

(8) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, ” says the Lord God,“who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”​

TLV:

(8) “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says Adonai Elohim, “Who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty!”​

Only God, YHWH, is almighty. Jesus will always be subservient to God - 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 (WEB):

(24) Then the end comes, when he [Jesus] will deliver up the Kingdom to God, even the Father; when he will have abolished all rule and all authority and power.​

(25) For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.​

(26) The last enemy that will be abolished is death.​

(27) For, “He put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when he says, “All things are put in subjection”, it is evident that he is excepted who subjected all things to him.​

(28) When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.​

John 8:58 - Jesus calls Himself The "I AM", one of God's sacred names.

Jesus doesn't call himself "I am". I've covered that so I won't repeat it.

And He purposefully did that, because the context there was His declaration that He saw Abraham back in Old Testament times. That was the context of His answer. And that is why those unbelieving Jews tried to stone Him there, because He pointed to Himself as God by declaring that, "Before Abraham was, I AM."

How does Jesus saying that he was alive back in Abraham's lifetime imply that he was God? Don't you believe Jesus when he said that he was alive and with God before the Earth was created? John 17:5,24 (WEB):

(5) Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.​

(24) Father, I desire that they also whom you have given me be with me where I am, that they may see my glory, which you have given me, for you loved me before the foundation of the world.​

Matthew 1:21-23 - JESUS is declared as the Child of the Isaiah prophecy that would be born of a virgin. And one of His titles we are told is "Emmanuel" from that Isaiah 7 prophecy, which according to Matthew 1:23 means "God with us". That SEALS the Divinity of Jesus of Nazareth, The Christ.

Isaiah 7:14 says that God will give a sign, not that God will become a sign. It says the child's name, not his title, will be Emmanuel. A name doesn't define who a person is. God declared the child's name would be Emmanuel to indicate that God was going to work through Jesus for the benefit of the Jews (and all mankind). God doesn't need to be present in the form of a man to be with us:

1Kings 8:57

(57) May Yahweh our God be with us, as he was with our fathers. Let him not leave us or forsake us;​

2 Chronicles 32:8

(8) An arm of flesh is with him, but Yahweh our God is with us to help us and to fight our battles.” The people rested themselves on the words of Hezekiah king of Judah.​

God was in Jesus, speaking and working through him, but Jesus was not God.

Hebrews 9:24

(24) For Christ hasn’t entered into holy places made with hands, which are representations of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;​

Jesus is now in the presence of God - he isn't God!

Isaiah 9:6 - Declares The Son, the Child of Isaiah 7:14, as "The mighty God" and as "The everlasting Father".

Isa 9:6
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
KJV

Thus the unbelieving JEWS have NO EXCUSE. That Jesus of Nazareth IS THE CHRIST, THE IMMANUEL, AND THE CHILD AND SON of Isaiah 9:6, has NO defeat, not in spirit, not in words, and certainly not by unbelievers having sneaked into a Christian forum!

As Isaiah 9:6 says, God gives us a son. That only-begottten son of God, Jesus, is not God, but God gives us His son because He loves us - John 3:16 (WEB):

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.​

God's son will be the King over God's kingdom; he is a mighty God - but not the one and only almighty God YHWH; Jesus gives everlasting life to all mankind who will believe and obey, so he is the father of everlasting life - the Hebrew for "everlasting father" is literally translated as "father of eternity".

If you remove the Trinity tinted spectacles then you might understand what the Scriptures actually say, rather than having to twist them and misinterpret them to fit the man-made doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[Wrangler]

That is great, now you define what the term "one faith" means in Eph 4:5. I say it is referring to another synonym of God's people the Way (Acts 9:2), what do you say it is referring to Wrangler?

Your world view does not allow a rational answer to the question. Our conversation ends with your denying the difference between faith and denomination. Make a blessed day.

 

[Davy]

Are you suggesting that John 17:3, where Jesus says that the Father is the only true God, is not a real verse?!

You'll say anything to AVOID THOSE SCRIPTURES I POSTED that declare Jesus as God. And because of that, you ARE NOT TO BE TRUSTED IN GOD'S WORD.

So go fish, you DECEIVER.

 

[keithr]

You'll say anything to AVOID THOSE SCRIPTURES I POSTED that declare Jesus as God. And because of that, you ARE NOT TO BE TRUSTED IN GOD'S WORD.

So go fish, you DECEIVER.

I have read again your posts and my posts, and as far as I can see I have addressed all the verses that you have quoted. I have not ignored any of them. On the other hand, you have not addressed all of the verses that I have quoted. What did Jesus say? "Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but don’t consider the beam that is in your own eye?" (Matthew 7:3).