The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[HIM]

Oh Yes, you just cant receive it.

You said, "Even before the elect are born into this world as sinners, they have already [by the blood of Christ] been reconciled to God, it will now be a matter of time for it to be manifested."

The Holy Writ does not say that. It is not how you think. We are for the most part all the elect. For God is longsuffering not willing any should perish but that ALL would come to repentance. That ALL men be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. To wit God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD unto Himself. He says look unto Me and be saved for He is the God of all the earth. He says, " I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die...? " But alas most won't....

 

[brightfame52]

Him

You said, "Even before the elect are born into this world as sinners, they have already [by the blood of Christ] been reconciled to God, it will now be a matter of time for it to be manifested."

Thats correct. Rom 5:10 states that

10 For if, when we were enemies[unbelievers], we were reconciled to God by the death[blood] of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

The Holy Writ does not say that. It is not how you think.

Yes its scripture truth but like I said you cannot receive it

We are for the most part all the elect.

False teaching

 

[brightfame52]

He purged away our sins and sat down !

Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

See Ps 65:3; 79:9

All for whom Christ died, they have no sins for God to charge against them, yes even before they believe, because all their sins were laid to the charge of Christ, and He bore them on His Cross 1 Pet 2:24, and having done so, He purged them away from before God's Law and Justice Heb 1:3.

Now for this to have been the case, they through His Offering, have no sins recorded against them against God's Law charged against them Col 2:14

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

For sin is the transgression of the law, and the strength of sin [its right to be called sin] is the Law 1 Cor 15:56, so hence by the purging of our sins [if He died for us], we have been totally exonerated before God, as if we never sinned, and yes this is the case before we become believers, and is the reason we become believers! Because the Just shall live by Faith ! And all for whom Christ died are declared Just , for there are sins charged against them before God's Law and Justice, they have been taken out the Way!

 

[brightfame52]

Secured Peace with God !

Rom 5:1

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

This scripture by moving a comma will read:

Therefore being justified, by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

In other words the Peace we have with God by Christ's Death is revealed to Faith !

Jesus made Peace with God for those He died for, this Peace we have nothing to do with in having it, for it was secured for us by Christ's Death / Blood Col 1:20

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

This Peace with God was made for those Christ died for through His Blood, and this while we ourselves were being enemies Rom 5:10. This legal Peace of Col 1:20 is the same as the legal reconciliation of Rom 5:10, for Reconciliation was the result of peace being accomplished by the Cross.

This Peace and Reconciliation by the Blood of Christ is not contingent on any act or behavior of men, but is solely an accomplished and established fact, that should be preached as such, hence Paul calls it the Gospel or Good News of Peace Eph 6:15

15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

For it rightly cannot be a Gospel of Peace, if its only a possibility of peace with God.

He Preached Peace unto you Eph 2:17

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.


Its not that peace is made available or has been offered you, those are words of false preachers and witnesses, however to all for whom Peace with God through Jesus Christ [His Blood] was accomplished for, God sees to it that Peace is preached unto them Rom 10:15

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Now this Peace / Reconciliation is one of the many accomplishments of the Cross Work of Jesus Christ for His Church, God's Elect World! 11

 

[HIM]

Him



Thats correct. Rom 5:10 states that

10 For if, when we were enemies[unbelievers], we were reconciled to God by the death[blood] of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.



Yes its scripture truth but like I said you cannot receive it



False teaching

The bible is as false teaching? You should stop. Because what you claim is false teaching is from the Bible and the text within

 

[brightfame52]

Shall be made Alive !

1 Cor 15:22

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

All for whom Christ died, was buried and rose again the third day in behalf of Shall be made Alive, That is receive resurrection life as Per 1 Pet 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

They shall be made alive by the New Birth and or quickening 1 Cor 15:45

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Thats why Jesus spake thusly Jn 12:24,32

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit or Life !

Jn 6:37

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

They come to Him because they have been given life.

Jesus said on another occasion this Jn 6:53

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Eating His flesh and drinking His Blood are activities of coming to Him, but if one doesn't come is evidence of no life in them, the flip said is if they do come its an evidence of Life in them ! That they have been made Alive by Christ !


32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth[His Death], will draw[by giving life] all men unto me.

11

 

[brightfame52]

Prevents them from perishing!

All those Christ died for, in the place of or in behalf of, and for their benefit, His Death kept them from perishing for their own sins ! This is clearly seen in what the High Priest uttered here by the inspiration of God Jn 11:50-51

Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

Its clearly indicated in Vs 50 that the outcome and purpose of the one man dying for that nation prevents the one's of that nation from perishing !

The word perish in Vs 50 is the greek word apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly

Its the same word used in Jn 3:16

should not perish, but have

Also the word expedient in Vs 50 is the greek word sumphero: I collect, am profitable to

I bring together, collect; I am profitable to.

properly, combine in a way that brings a profit (gain), especially by a "concurrence of circumstances" that results in benefit or advancement (M. Vincent).

This means that Christ's Death would bring together, collect all into one the Children of God or the Sheep of God as is stated in Vs 52

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

That was the benefit of His Death , the profit of His Death, it was conducive in preventing all the Children of God or Sheep of God from Perishing in their sins!

If this passage is understood spiritually it shows that Christ's Death in and of itself saves from perishing those He died in behalf of ! 11

 

[brightfame52]

That we may bear fruit unto God !

Rom 7:4

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.


Another accomplishment of the Death of Christ in the Purpose of God, is that it will cause all for whom He died and was raised from the dead for, to bring forth fruit unto God. That fruit being both faith and repentance, repentance toward God and Faith in Jesus Christ Acts 20:21

21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Both of these are but fruits of Christ's Death and Resurrection 1 Pet 1:3 !

Remember when Jesus said this Jn 12:24

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Well that is the fruit unto God Paul means here in Rom 7:4, which fruit consisteth of many men and women for whom Christ died, manifest both Faith and Repentance.


John the Baptist said to the Pharisee, questioning them about why they came to His Baptism of Repentance, but first they must bring forth fruit unto Repentance Matt 3:7-8

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducee's come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

This fruit would manifest itself in confession of sin Matt 3:6

6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

However the Pharisees and Sadducee's that John directed his words to did not consider themselves sinners as other men much like the Pharisee here Lk 18:11-12

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

You see the Pharisee did not consider those things he did works of darkness or sinful deeds of the flesh, but in reality thats what they were Jn 3:19

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Their religious deeds were nothing but dead works that needed to be repented of Heb 9:14

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? See also Isa 64:6.

Now this is how Christ Glorifies His Father, by those He died for bringing forth fruit Jn 15:8

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

And this is the end and accomplishment of the Death of Christ or the Body of Christ Rom 7:4

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

 

[brightfame52]

Did Christ's Death succeed its purpose ?

Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

If Christ by His Death or His Offering of Himself, if by it each Person, each one He died for does not become zealous of Good Works as stated here [ See also Eph 2:10], His Death's Purpose was a Failure !

The word that here is important. Its the greek conjunction ἵνα and means:

in order that, so that


for the purpose that (in order that), looking to the aim (intended result) of the verbal idea

In other words, God's intended result in Christ giving Himself and He giving His Son Jn 3:16; Rom 8:32 as in order to produce certain and specific results, those being:

To redeem those He died for from all iniquity, and to purify unto himself a specially chosen people zealous of Good Works.

If This intention did not become a Reality for all whom Christ died, His Death failed God's Intended Purpose !

Then what about people who do not end up being a person zealous of good works ? Then simply Christ was not given for that person or persons !

 

[Rightglory]

Nowhere does scripture limit reconciliation to only an "elect world". Here are the scriptures regarding the reconciliation that Christ achieved using the terms "world" and "all things", by God in Christ to Himself:

Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

2Co 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling a world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

I promised to pay attention, and you have to promise not to continually make things up. Ok?

Most of this thread to date has been about ONLY ONE aspect of Christ's atonement. You have touched on the primary one.
Both creeds, Nicene/Apostles, make two very clear statements at the end. The forgiveness of sins, AND the resurrection from the dead.
This sums up what happened in the Garden and the punishment for the sin Adam/Eve committed. The curse was death, man would return to dust Gen 3:19. Man was not created to be destroyed. Sin corrupted not just man but the world.

Verses that show this death as being primary are Rom 5:12-21, Heb 2:9, Heb 2:14-15. II Cor 5:18-19 has already been mentioned. Others, Col 1:15-20, II Tim 1:10, I John 2:2, I Tim 4:10. The summary of this primary function of redemption is given by Paul in the Resurrection chapter of I Cor 15: 12-58. There are specific texts within this chapter that clearly align with the sin of Adam and its consequences and the importance of the Second Adam to reverse the curse, I Cor 15:20-22; 52-53.
Without Christ's humanity and the resurrection all else is in vain which is what Paul says in I Cor 15:16-17.

 

[brightfame52]

Most of this thread to date has been about ONLY ONE aspect of Christ's atonement. You have touched on the primary one.
Both creeds, Nicene/Apostles, make two very clear statements at the end. The forgiveness of sins, AND the resurrection from the dead.
This sums up what happened in the Garden and the punishment for the sin Adam/Eve committed. The curse was death, man would return to dust Gen 3:19. Man was not created to be destroyed. Sin corrupted not just man but the world.

Verses that show this death as being primary are Rom 5:12-21, Heb 2:9, Heb 2:14-15. II Cor 5:18-19 has already been mentioned. Others, Col 1:15-20, II Tim 1:10, I John 2:2, I Tim 4:10. The summary of this primary function of redemption is given by Paul in the Resurrection chapter of I Cor 15: 12-58. There are specific texts within this chapter that clearly align with the sin of Adam and its consequences and the importance of the Second Adam to reverse the curse, I Cor 15:20-22; 52-53.
Without Christ's humanity and the resurrection all else is in vain which is what Paul says in I Cor 15:16-17.

Do you believe that Christs death ensures/accomplished the salvation of everyone He died for ? Yes or No

 

[Rightglory]

Do you believe that Christs death ensures/accomplished the salvation of everyone He died for ? Yes or No

The word "salvation is used in context because it means different things in scripture.
If you mean did Christ through His humanity, death and resurrection save, redeem, all those who are human beings from death, then the answer is Yes.
If you mean salvation through faith, then No.
The texts that I cited clearly shows that all men die. They all die because of the condemnation, or curse of death to Adam for his sin. All men will rise on the last day, no exceptions. All men will have immortality, I Cor 15:52-53. Where they will spend that eternal existance will depend on their own choice to believe or not to believe in Christ. Scripture is quite clear on both.

 

[atpollard]

Where they will spend that eternal existance will depend on their own choice to believe or not to believe in Christ. Scripture is quite clear on both.

• [Genesis 3:8 NKJV] 8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
• [John 3:19-21 NKJV] 19 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 "But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
• [Romans 3:10-11 NKJV] 10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
• [Ephesians 2:4-10 NKJV] 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
• [Philippians 2:13 NKJV] 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for [His] good pleasure.

Scripture is clear all hide from God (and why) and God does the work of saving (outside and inside).

 

[Rightglory]

• [Genesis 3:8 NKJV] 8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
• [John 3:19-21 NKJV] 19 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 "But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
• [Romans 3:10-11 NKJV] 10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
• [Ephesians 2:4-10 NKJV] 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
• [Philippians 2:13 NKJV] 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for [His] good pleasure.

Scripture is clear all hide from God (and why) and God does the work of saving (outside and inside).

I'm not sure just what you are refuting, or at least I am assuming you are trying to refute what I stated. I agree fully with the citations given. Although I'm not sure just what you mean by your statement.

 

[atpollard]

I'm not sure just what you are refuting, or at least I am assuming you are trying to refute what I stated. I agree fully with the citations given. Although I'm not sure just what you mean by your statement.

I was "respectfully disagreeing" with your view that an individual's eternal destiny depends on the will of each individual. The verses were not intended to refute your position as much as they were intended to outline with a broad brush support for my conclusion at the bottom.

Breaking it down:

Starting with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8), every man and every woman has ultimately chosen sin and, because we have chosen sin, we all naturally flee from God (John 3:19-20) and hide. This applies to EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION (Romans 3:10-11).​

... "BUT GOD": The most powerful words in the Bible. Our salvation does NOT depend on people that will unfailingly make the wrong choice and flee from God and hide from God to suddenly choose to act contrary to our nature by the power of our 'free but fallen will'. No, our deeds are done in God (John 3:21) not in us. While we are dead, God makes us alive (Ephesians 2:5). God gives us salvation and faith and grace all tied up in a bow as a gift that is NOT of us, but of God (Ephesians 2:8-9), making us HIS WORKMANSHIP (Ephesians 2:10). However God does far more than carry us to the starting line (justification, salvation), God empowers us from within and without all the way past the finish line (sanctification, glorification) by working IN US to WILL and ON US to DO according to His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).​

That is Soli Deo Gloria ... "To God Alone Glory!"

 

[brightfame52]

rightglory

The word "salvation is used in context because it means different things in scripture.
If you mean did Christ through His humanity, death and resurrection save, redeem, all those who are human beings from death, then the answer is Yes.
If you mean salvation through faith, then No.

Thats what I mean, because Christs death secured and applies everything to save and convert them He died for. By His death He brings them He died for to God in a conversion experience 1 Pet 3:18

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Thats Salvation, they come to God by Him Heb 7:25

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

 

[360watt]

You guys all know the same titled thread is on christianchat.com forums in bible discussion? Wonder which site had it first? Guess it's fine having the same topic on both, but it's a little weird.

 

[Rightglory]

I was "respectfully disagreeing" with your view that an individual's eternal destiny depends on the will of each individual. The verses were not intended to refute your position as much as they were intended to outline with a broad brush support for my conclusion at the bottom.

Breaking it down:

Starting with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8), every man and every woman has ultimately chosen sin and, because we have chosen sin, we all naturally flee from God (John 3:19-20) and hide. This applies to EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION (Romans 3:10-11).​

... "BUT GOD": The most powerful words in the Bible. Our salvation does NOT depend on people that will unfailingly make the wrong choice and flee from God and hide from God to suddenly choose to act contrary to our nature by the power of our 'free but fallen will'. No, our deeds are done in God (John 3:21) not in us. While we are dead, God makes us alive (Ephesians 2:5). God gives us salvation and faith and grace all tied up in a bow as a gift that is NOT of us, but of God (Ephesians 2:8-9), making us HIS WORKMANSHIP (Ephesians 2:10). However God does far more than carry us to the starting line (justification, salvation), God empowers us from within and without all the way past the finish line (sanctification, glorification) by working IN US to WILL and ON US to DO according to His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).​

That is Soli Deo Gloria ... "To God Alone Glory!"

Most of what you interpret is misconstrued from the texts.
Man was created with a free will. A will that is independent from God. If otherwise, God becomes the initiator of Adam's sin. Christ came to reverse the condemnation of man. He gave all men life. Not a single human being will be destroyed. Man was not created to be destroyed. God, through Christ now makes man responsible for his actions. This is why His Blood forgives our sin. By your explanation there is no need for a Blood sacrifice or forgiveness since you have God the controller of all of man's actions.
We are saved through faith. That faith is a conscious decision and every human being will make a choice of either believing and remaining faithful, or not believing. Paul makes this very clear in Rom 1:15-18, Rom 2:6-8. The Holy Spirit now calls all men to repentance. Every single human being will make a choice and be judged accordingly. II Pet 3:9
You used John3:21, but you should have left it in context with the verses from John 3:16-21. Says nothing that God causes you to believe. You believe, then what you do should be to God. You explanation turns the meaning of the verse completely opposite from what it says.
Eph 2:5 is referencing the resurrection of Christ. All men are dead in trespasses but because of His great love raised us up, Christ is the first fruit of that resurrection. If we were not given victory over death then faith is all in vain. Heb 2:14-15 makes this very clear. Satan held the power of death over creation until Christ came to redeem this world and mankind. Col 1:17-20. There is nothing excluded from His redemptive work. That verb in vs 5 is past these. "Saved" Christ accomplished this by his resurrection. Whether you believe or not is all up to you. The Holy Spirit is knocking on ones door. He cannot open it, only you can. If is was up to Christ He would save all men and there would be no hell, for He loves all men and desires that all be saved.

 

[Rightglory]

rightglory


Thats what I mean, because Christs death secured and applies everything to save and convert them He died for. By His death He brings them He died for to God in a conversion experience 1 Pet 3:18

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Thats Salvation, they come to God by Him Heb 7:25

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Christ's death does not covert a single person. His death gave life, Immortality to the world. That is why scripture speaks of a resurrection of the dead. There will be a resurrection in the last day and all men will be raised to face judgement. Conversion is a choice a person makes through the calling of the Holy Spirit. He calls all men to repentance, II Pet 3:9.
Heb 7:25 does not address the idea that God does the saving. The Holy Spirit calls all men to repentance. If He actually saved them then why does he need to make intercession for us. Your theology is not consistent with scripture.
Take you explanation of I Peter 3:18. If what you say is true, then since Christ died for all men he also converts all men.
You seem not to believe in a resurrection. You want to bypass the most important aspect if His redemptive work. Read I Cor 15:12 to the end. Believers are not mentioned directly in that whole section. It addresses the resurrection and that the resurrection of Christ make it possible to speak about believers. If Christ had not been raised, all is in vain, Vs 17. Then read very carefully the vs 20-22.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Rom 5:11

11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

The Atonement of Christ has reconciled the elect world to God. It secured and ensured for it [ the elect world] every spiritual blessing needed to live unto God and for His Glory through Jesus Christ.

Even before the elect are born into this world as sinners, they have already [by the blood of Christ] been reconciled to God, it will now be a matter of time for it to be manifested.

The atonement accomplished the complete salvation for all whom it was offered for, that is the death of Christ. It provides them Faith, repentance, sanctification, redemption, and every needful spiritual blessing to convert them to God, and remain secured forever.

Yes, there is a difference between atonement and reconciliation. God reconciled the world through the twins of salvation and judgment. It is the ultimate cure for a world gone astray. The wicked are removed, and those who fit into God's plan willfully are allowed to continue.

Atonement provided for this reconciliation, but it is, I think, something strictly for the believer. When the Scriptures say Christ died for the whole world, it is saying salvation was made available to all, whether or not they all accept it. Atonement comes to those who live by it, who embrace Christ as their Savior and Lord.