The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[brightfame52]

rightglory

Christ's death does not covert a single person

Yes it does, I just showed you a verse indicating that, you ignore it to your shame 1 Pet 3:18

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Peter 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Healed here means conversion, and its a result of His stripes which is figurative for His being put to death/ bearing our sins.

Being healed is conversion !

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, there is a difference between atonement and reconciliation. God reconciled the world through the twins of salvation and judgment. It is the ultimate cure for a world gone astray. The wicked are removed, and those who fit into God's plan willfully are allowed to continue.

Atonement provided for this reconciliation, but it is, I think, something strictly for the believer. When the Scriptures say Christ died for the whole world, it is saying salvation was made available to all, whether or not they all accept it. Atonement comes to those who live by it, who embrace Christ as their Savior and Lord.

False !

 

[Rightglory]

Yes, there is a difference between atonement and reconciliation. God reconciled the world through the twins of salvation and judgment. It is the ultimate cure for a world gone astray. The wicked are removed, and those who fit into God's plan willfully are allowed to continue.

Atonement provided for this reconciliation, but it is, I think, something strictly for the believer. When the Scriptures say Christ died for the whole world, it is saying salvation was made available to all, whether or not they all accept it. Atonement comes to those who live by it, who embrace Christ as their Savior and Lord.

the salvation through faith was made available. But salvation through faith would accomplish nothing if Christ had not first defeated death.
Christ redeemed the whole world. Everything He created, He redeemed. The world fell along with Adam. Col 1:15-20 defines clearly what Christ accomplished with His resurrection. II Cor 5:18-19 says the same thing.

 

[Rightglory]

rightglory



Yes it does, I just showed you a verse indicating that, you ignore it to your shame 1 Pet 3:18

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Peter 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Healed here means conversion, and its a result of His stripes which is figurative for His being put to death/ bearing our sins.

Being healed is conversion !

I Pet 3:18 Has nothing to do with God converting individuals. What it says is Christ died for the just and the unjust. That He might bring us to God. The US in that sentence is referring to the just and the unjust. I Pet 4:2 says that we should live to the will of God. Nothing says that God is converting anyone. Vs 24 implores believers to live unto righteousness. If God converted you and it is final, then why is He imploring to to live unto righteousness. He is not doing the living for you. The unjust were healed by that death and stripes just like you. Healed is referring to the curse man had over him. This curse is described in Heb 2:14-15. We (all men) were held in bondage to Satan through the power of death. Christ defeated death, thus the victory over death, the grave. Why do you have the need to change the meaning of words? By changing the meaning you now say that all men are converted to Christ, the just and the unjust.

 

[Randy Kluth]

the salvation through faith was made available. But salvation through faith would accomplish nothing if Christ had not first defeated death.
Christ redeemed the whole world. Everything He created, He redeemed. The world fell along with Adam. Col 1:15-20 defines clearly what Christ accomplished with His resurrection. II Cor 5:18-19 says the same thing.

I would not say the lost have been redeemed!

 

[Randy Kluth]

False !

False because.....?

 

[Rightglory]

I would not say the lost have been redeemed!

What is your definition of "redeemed"?
There are many applications but the context always determines its meaning.
Christ redeemed the world, not just believers. He made the world right. He did something man could not do, overcome death.
There would be no "new heaven and new earth, there would be no hell even, no resurrection of the dead. In fact there would be no believers, at least have no eternal life which is what Paul states in I Cor 15, 17-18. Col 1:19-20 the word "reconcile" is used, justification could also be used.
It is an impossibility for Christ to ONLY redeem believers. After all He became man, a man just like every other man in His humanity. If that humanity died, just how can it touch ONLY some individuals. The only way you could explain it is that Christ actually was not human and thus could by decree declare some redeemed which makes Christ's sacrifice null and void. All that is really needed is a decree that certain humans will be saved from death. All the rest will be destroyed, However, scripture says just the opposite. Read John 6:37-40, then compare with Col 1:15-20.
The judgement against Adam was universal, unless you can show some of humanity does not die. So is Christ's work universal to overturn, correct, redeem, reconcile, justify the condemnation through Adam. This is what I Cor 15: 20-22 states very clearly.

 

[brightfame52]

I Pet 3:18 Has nothing to do with God converting individuals. What it says is Christ died for the just and the unjust. That He might bring us to God. The US in that sentence is referring to the just and the unjust. I Pet 4:2 says that we should live to the will of God. Nothing says that God is converting anyone. Vs 24 implores believers to live unto righteousness. If God converted you and it is final, then why is He imploring to to live unto righteousness. He is not doing the living for you. The unjust were healed by that death and stripes just like you. Healed is referring to the curse man had over him. This curse is described in Heb 2:14-15. We (all men) were held in bondage to Satan through the power of death. Christ defeated death, thus the victory over death, the grave. Why do you have the need to change the meaning of words? By changing the meaning you now say that all men are converted to Christ, the just and the unjust.

Yes 1 Pet 3:18and 1 Pet 2:24 has to do with Christs death converting them He died for. His death brings us to God, thats conversion.

 

[brightfame52]

False because.....?

Read the thread, thats what I have been explaining.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Read the thread, thats what I have been explaining.

I just jumped on here, and you want me to read 19 pages of your repetition of "Purpose and accomplishment of Christ death?" It seems you're never really answering the obvious question: If Christ died for unbelievers to bring them to faith, then what about those who refuse to come to faith?

This would mean that Christ's atonement may have been for unbelievers, but was never understood to apply to unbelievers who chose to reject faith. Instead of just repeating your arguments, why don't you answer this question? I don't want to have to read through 19 pages of repetitive statements that don't really answer the question for me.

 

[Randy Kluth]

What is your definition of "redeemed"?

Redemption means, to me, to "buy back." That's pretty standard.

If Christ paid the price to buy people back, and many didn't want to be bought back, then those who reject being bought back are *not* bought back, or "redeemed."

We typically call "the redeemed" those who are saved. We don't typically apply the term "redeemed" to those who reject Christianity.

There are many applications but the context always determines its meaning.
Christ redeemed the world, not just believers.

We may be having a semantics problem. I would put it like this, to be more clear.

Christ died to redeem the whole world, those who would get saved and those who would not get saved. But his redemption never comes to apply to those who reject his offer of redemption.

I could never say "Christ redeemed the whole world" in the sense that all will get saved. Clearly, many are not going to be saved! Clearly, they are not going to be "redeemed," unless you're just talking about the act Christ did to provide this for them in case they take him up on his offer. His *offer* was made for everybody. But he obviously is not going to redeem, or *save,* everybody!

You're saying that Christ made redemption *available* for everybody.
I'm saying that Christ still cannot redeem everybody if some do not avail themselves of that offer of redemption.

Christ didn't "redeem everybody," as I understand the language. He just provided an atoning sacrifice for everybody so that they can be redeemed if they accept him as such.

For example, let's say I paid for the entire forum to go to the circus. I can say I paid for everybody to go see the circus. But I cannot say everybody will go in to see the circus.

Christ paid the price of redemption, but that doesn't mean everybody will get redeemed. When you say "everybody was redeemed," what you're really meaning to say is that Christ made the provision whether people accept him or not. Or are you saying something more?

 

[Rightglory]

Yes 1 Pet 3:18and 1 Pet 2:24 has to do with Christs death converting them He died for. His death brings us to God, thats conversion.

You have a remarkable way to change words so it says what you want it to say, not what scripture is actually saying. Bringing to God is NOT conversion. Conversion is not even done by God. God calls all men to repentance II Pet 3:9, Man must choose to accept or decline that call. When one accepts, that is believes, repents, that is conversion.
By what you say from what the texts both say, is that the unjust have been converted. I Pet 3:18 also states that Christ died for sins, the sins of the world, not just sins of some. He is the just in the text. Mankind is the unjust. He suffered death and was made alive by the Spirit, meaning He was raised from death. It also speaks of going to Hades (spirits in prison) to bring light to those in prison who died before He came.
Your word "conversion" in your statement should be "redemption".
Carefully read what Rom 1:18-21 says. It tells you very clearly that God DOES NOT make believers. Every human being will receive the knowledge of God. Each will give an answer to that knowledge, call to come to Him. God does not convert anyone. Support your contention with other texts that show God converts unjust, unbelievers to faith.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You have a remarkable way to change words so it says what you want it to say, not what scripture is actually saying. Bringing to God is NOT conversion. Conversion is not even done by God. God calls all men to repentance II Pet 3:9, Man must choose to accept or decline that call. When one accepts, that is believes, repents, that is conversion.

At best these statements are questionable and at worst misleading. Language is a flexible thing and must be understood as the user of those words mean to use them.

For many that I know, "bringing to God" does mean conversion. To use your own argument, to "bring to God" is to make the Gospel known to men so that they may respond and come to God.

For many, conversion is indeed "done by God." The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, and then testifies to the righteousness of Christ that has been made available to man.

Carefully read what Rom 1:18-21 says. It tells you very clearly that God DOES NOT make believers. Every human being will receive the knowledge of God. Each will give an answer to that knowledge, call to come to Him. God does not convert anyone. Support your contention with other texts that show God converts unjust, unbelievers to faith.

Setting aside the nuances of your argument, these statements on their face seem wrong. God does in fact "make believers." He does this by declaring His word to them through the agency of Christian ministers. And then people have the opportunity to respond to the Holy Spirit. This is how God "makes believers," by giving them truth that they can respond to and believe in . This makes them "believers."

Some of the confusion of this thread appears to be a matter of semantics and confusion over language. So before entering into the theological problem, language has to be agreed on, or we will be talking past one another.

 

[Rightglory]

Redemption means, to me, to "buy back." That's pretty standard.

If Christ paid the price to buy people back, and many didn't want to be bought back, then those who reject being bought back are *not* bought back, or "redeemed."

We typically call "the redeemed" those who are saved. We don't typically apply the term "redeemed" to those who reject Christianity.

We may be having a semantics problem. I would put it like this, to be more clear.

Christ died to redeem the whole world, those who would get saved and those who would not get saved. But his redemption never comes to apply to those who reject his offer of redemption.

I could never say "Christ redeemed the whole world" in the sense that all will get saved. Clearly, many are not going to be saved! Clearly, they are not going to be "redeemed," unless you're just talking about the act Christ did to provide this for them in case they take him up on his offer. His *offer* was made for everybody. But he obviously is not going to redeem, or *save,* everybody!

You're saying that Christ made redemption *available* for everybody.
I'm saying that Christ still cannot redeem everybody if some do not avail themselves of that offer of redemption.

Christ didn't "redeem everybody," as I understand the language. He just provided an atoning sacrifice for everybody so that they can be redeemed if they accept him as such.

You are not using context to support your definitions. Redemption has nothing to do with believers in particular. Christ bought everything,. That is what Col 1:17-20 is stating emphatically. II Cor 5:18-19 is also making the same claim. The whole of I Cor 15: 12 -53, which is known as the resurrection chapter speaks of the world, all men. Believers are not addressed at all. The two summaries of the context preceding them I Cor 15: 20-22 tells you again, very emphatically that all men will be raised by His resurrection. Then you have another summary in vs52-53 explicitly states that all the dead will be raised incorruptible and immortal.

Your explanation of some rejecting the purchase makes no sense by any scriptural understanding. What Christ did is what man could not do. Christ redeemed the world so that He could call all men to repentance. It is this call that we accept or reject. His resurrection of all men makes believers possible. I Cor 15:17-18 makes this clear.

Scripture does state that redemption has saved, past tense. But that salvation is overcoming death and sin. Now we by faith live in this world, living unto God because of what He has done for us. If all men do not get "saved" by His redemption, then Christ never became man. It is through His humanity that He saved all things, redeemed all things, justified all things Rom 3:24, Rom 5:8-1; reconciled all things Col 1:20, Rom 5:10, II Cor 5:19. . These words all have the same meaning: to make right, to correct a wrong.
God is not offering you redemption, He gave that to you, all men. What God offers is a personal relationship with Him now. Salvation through faith is the offer, and it is an ongoing journey in this life. It is not ever spoken in the past tense, only present active.

 

[Rightglory]

At best these statements are questionable and at worst misleading. Language is a flexible thing and must be understood as the user of those words mean to use them.

For many that I know, "bringing to God" does mean conversion. To use your own argument, to "bring to God" is to make the Gospel known to men so that they may respond and come to God.

For many, conversion is indeed "done by God." The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, and then testifies to the righteousness of Christ that has been made available to man.

Setting aside the nuances of your argument, these statements on their face seem wrong. God does in fact "make believers." He does this by declaring His word to them through the agency of Christian ministers. And then people have the opportunity to respond to the Holy Spirit. This is how God "makes believers," by giving them truth that they can respond to and believe in . This makes them "believers."

Some of the confusion of this thread appears to be a matter of semantics and confusion over language. So before entering into the theological problem, language has to be agreed on, or we will be talking past one another.

The whole purpose of the Holy Spirit working in this world is to bring all men to repentance. He desires that all repent. But the actual act of believing is NOT done by God. It is done by each person. It is accepting His offer of salvation through faith. If God does it, man is not the active agent and CANNOT be held accountable. Holding to that faith is also your responsibility, not the Holy Spirit's. A believer can reject that offer at any time. That is our huge problem living in a sinful world, with a still sinful nature. It is a constant battle to keep the faith. It is why confession of our sins is so important.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The whole purpose of the Holy Spirit working in this world is to bring all men to repentance. He desires that all repent. But the actual act of believing is NOT done by God. It is done by each person. It is accepting His offer of salvation through faith. If God does it, man is not the active agent and CANNOT be held accountable. Holding to that faith is also your responsibility, not the Holy Spirit's. A believer can reject that offer at any time. That is our huge problem living in a sinful world, with a still sinful nature. It is a constant battle to keep the faith. It is why confession of our sins is so important.

I quite agree, but it seems that Predestination, or the Perseverance of the Saints, ie "TULIP," has been injected into this? Understanding the language of the Bible with respect to redemption and atonement is one thing, but understanding Predestination is very much another thing.

God clearly designed Man to make free choices, and I agree with you--this is Man's domain. But the role God plays in this involves the connection between God's own spoken word and the affect it has upon those He predestined.

Let me put it this way, because I am a Predestinarian. But I also believe in Free Human Choice. Let's say God designed the world to hold 10 billion people, which He designed to reflect His image and likeness.

But then human choice entered into the equation, and Satan provided a nasty alternative to living in God's image and likeness. So Man, out of duress and temptation, chose to go in the wrong direction.

Due to the mixed nature of this choice, the choice to covet and lust and the duress imposed by Satan, Man continued to multiply, as God designed him, and produced a mixed bag of people, some choosing to repent, confessing they were weak to Satan's temptations, and others, hardening their hearts, and choosing to remain in their lust and covetousness.

Let's now say that the world has produced well over 10 billion people saved because God wanted to reach the 10 billion mark. But in order to do so, He had to delay things while Man produced children who refused to cooperate and delay reaching the 10 billion people mark.

Here is an example of predestination and free human choice. Man produces children, some of whom fit into the 10 billion preplanned people and others who refuse to do so.

God nevertheless uses all men to accomplish his goal of 10 billion people, some born to the rebels, until the full 10 billion saved mark is reached. By free human choice, some will choose for their own independent, autonomous existence. Others will subscribe to God's revealed word and become among those God, by His Word, pre-planned.

 

[brightfame52]

I just jumped on here, and you want me to read 19 pages of your repetition of "Purpose and accomplishment of Christ death?" It seems you're never really answering the obvious question: If Christ died for unbelievers to bring them to faith, then what about those who refuse to come to faith?

This would mean that Christ's atonement may have been for unbelievers, but was never understood to apply to unbelievers who chose to reject faith. Instead of just repeating your arguments, why don't you answer this question? I don't want to have to read through 19 pages of repetitive statements that don't really answer the question for me.

Then you dont want me to explain my view then. All you have to do is read my posts, thats not all 19 pages. Why should I exert more energy on you when I have been explaining my pov ?

 

[Rightglory]

I quite agree, but it seems that Predestination, or the Perseverance of the Saints, ie "TULIP," has been injected into this? Understanding the language of the Bible with respect to redemption and atonement is one thing, but understanding Predestination is very much another thing.

God clearly designed Man to make free choices, and I agree with you--this is Man's domain. But the role God plays in this involves the connection between God's own spoken word and the affect it has upon those He predestined.

Let me put it this way, because I am a Predestinarian. But I also believe in Free Human Choice. Let's say God designed the world to hold 10 billion people, which He designed to reflect His image and likeness.

But then human choice entered into the equation, and Satan provided a nasty alternative to living in God's image and likeness. So Man, out of duress and temptation, chose to go in the wrong direction.

Due to the mixed nature of this choice, the choice to covet and lust and the duress imposed by Satan, Man continued to multiply, as God designed him, and produced a mixed bag of people, some choosing to repent, confessing they were weak to Satan's temptations, and others, hardening their hearts, and choosing to remain in their lust and covetousness.

Let's now say that the world has produced well over 10 billion people saved because God wanted to reach the 10 billion mark. But in order to do so, He had to delay things while Man produced children who refused to cooperate and delay reaching the 10 billion people mark.

Here is an example of predestination and free human choice. Man produces children, some of whom fit into the 10 billion preplanned people and others who refuse to do so.

God nevertheless uses all men to accomplish his goal of 10 billion people, some born to the rebels, until the full 10 billion saved mark is reached. By free human choice, some will choose for their own independent, autonomous existence. Others will subscribe to God's revealed word and become among those God, by His Word, pre-planned.

There is no predestination in any of the comments I made. Do you believe that some men do not sin. That some men have not fallen as did Adam. If you actually believe what scripture states, then ALL MEN are fallen. All men were condemned to death through the curse upon Adam. If Christ is going to reverse the fall. bring His creation back from temporary control by Satan Heb 2:14-15, then Christ must of necessity redeem everything that came under the control of Satan. This is what I Cor 15:20-22 says. How can there be any misunderstanding of that verse. How can one change the meaning of Col 1:19-20. Do you believe in the Resurrection. Do you also believe that you as a believer by faith can resurrect yourself? How can hell exist if some men were not redeemed? You leave most of mankind in the end annihilated by death. They will never be raised to even stand in judgement. They may wish they were never born.
Christ death and resurrection is sufficient for any number of human beings that might ever live in this world. If Christ had not come, Adam's death would have been universal as well. This world would be dissolved by death permanently and forever. There would be no eternal existence, no new heaven and earth Rev 21:5. Do you believe Christ took on mankind's humanity? Your theology says he did not because you individualize His redemptive work to only believers.

 

[brightfame52]

You have a remarkable way to change words so it says what you want it to say, not what scripture is actually saying. Bringing to God is NOT conversion. Conversion is not even done by God. God calls all men to repentance II Pet 3:9, Man must choose to accept or decline that call. When one accepts, that is believes, repents, that is conversion.
By what you say from what the texts both say, is that the unjust have been converted. I Pet 3:18 also states that Christ died for sins, the sins of the world, not just sins of some. He is the just in the text. Mankind is the unjust. He suffered death and was made alive by the Spirit, meaning He was raised from death. It also speaks of going to Hades (spirits in prison) to bring light to those in prison who died before He came.
Your word "conversion" in your statement should be "redemption".
Carefully read what Rom 1:18-21 says. It tells you very clearly that God DOES NOT make believers. Every human being will receive the knowledge of God. Each will give an answer to that knowledge, call to come to Him. God does not convert anyone. Support your contention with other texts that show God converts unjust, unbelievers to faith.

Again being brought to God is conversion, see men had apostacied from God and went their own way, Isa 53:6

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

But Jesus death returns the sheep that went astray to God, thats conversion 1 Pet 2:24-25

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

BTW the word healed, the greek word iaomai :

1. o cure, heal
2. to make whole
   1. to free from errors and sins, to bring about (one's) salvation

It brings about ones salvation as in conversion. Christs death is the primary catalyst that causes them He died for to live unto righteousness, which is Faith in Christ our Righteousness.

Its very wicked to deny the saving efficacy of the Death of Christ friend.

 

[Randy Kluth]

There is no predestination in any of the comments I made.

Yes, but Predestination is historically where this kind of argument originated. So regardless of your own intent, the argument is there in the minds of many, if not subconsciously in your own.

Do you believe that some men do not sin.

Of course not. We're all born with the Sin Nature. You used "men," plural, so you were not referring to Christ.

That some men have not fallen as did Adam. If you actually believe what scripture states, then ALL MEN are fallen. All men were condemned to death through the curse upon Adam. If Christ is going to reverse the fall. bring His creation back from temporary control by Satan Heb 2:14-15, then Christ must of necessity redeem everything that came under the control of Satan.

So you're using the word with the semantics difficulty I was describing. God is "reversing the effects of sin on this planet," but the language to express that is misleading if you're saying that "all men have been redeemed."

This is what I Cor 15:20-22 says. How can there be any misunderstanding of that verse. How can one change the meaning of Col 1:19-20. Do you believe in the Resurrection. Do you also believe that you as a believer by faith can resurrect yourself? How can hell exist if some men were not redeemed? You leave most of mankind in the end annihilated by death.

Are you assuming that Christ's redemption of all mankind means that all of mankind will get saved? Do you think that the opposite of "annihilation," that all are resurrected, means that all will get saved?

I don't harbor any illusions about what 1 Cor 15 means. And I of course would agree with Colossians 1, as with any of the Scriptures. I don't know what this has to do with "self-resurrection?" Only God can raise people from the dead, obviously.

They will never be raised to even stand in judgement. They may wish they were never born.
Christ death and resurrection is sufficient for any number of human beings that might ever live in this world. If Christ had not come, Adam's death would have been universal as well. This world would be dissolved by death permanently and forever. There would be no eternal existence, no new heaven and earth Rev 21:5. Do you believe Christ took on mankind's humanity? Your theology says he did not because you individualize His redemptive work to only believers.

No, I do believe in the Deity of Christ and in his full humanity, in accordance with biblical theology and the creeds. Individualizing Salvation to those of Faith alone is precisely what the Bible teaches. It does not teach we get saved by our "Unbelief!"

You use the word "death" as of its refers to non-existence. It doesn't, biblically. "Death," rather, refers to a state of separation from life in the present world--it is separation from God's abundant, blessed life, a life of righteousness and peace and joy.

Using "death" as "non-existence" was never in mind in the Bible. Death just meant a cessation from existence in our current mortal bodies, and not the termination of our spiritual existence.

So the real question is: where will our spirits spend eternity, in God's Kingdom or in Outer Darkness? Hell itself is to be dissolved, so the place unbelievers will reside forever will simply be outside of God's holy city, and probably outside of the planet itself--don't really know.

Christ's redemption does not benefit those who will be lost. It was provided for them, but if they don't take him up on the offer they have made their decision to reject redemption. The act of redemption was done. Becoming redeemed only happens when one chooses to embrace it.