Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
You don't have to do anything. If you're standing behind your repetitive statements, which I don't think answer the question I'm asking, then we're done.
The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?
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BTW the word healed, the greek word iaomai :
You should apply this to your theology. You seem to be denying Christ's full work, only part of it, and the part you hold to would bring no eternal life as you seem to hold that death is meaningless.
I might also add that conversion does not brlng about salvation either, unless you hold to the error of OSAS. Our personal salvation is all hinged on us, believing, keeping the faith and enduring to the end. I Pet 1:3-5.
You are correct, but your application does not apply to believers but to all men. You are dwelling on ONLY the secondary work of Christ on the Cross, that is the shedding of blood for the purpose forgiveness of sins. If Christ did not rise from the dead, This sacrifice would ONLY reconcile men to God by faith in this life. There would be no eternal existence. We would all die permanently, still held by the power of Satan. The curse of Adam would still be in force- Heb 2:14-16. Your theology does not even accept the primary work of Christ. The work that makes everything else possible. Such as belief, faith, forgiveness of sin, our resurrection, the new heaven and new earth.
You should apply this to your theology. You seem to be denying Christ's full work, only part of it, and the part you hold to would bring no eternal life as you seem to hold that death is meaningless.
I might also add that conversion does not brlng about salvation either, unless you hold to the error of OSAS. Our personal salvation is all hinged on us, believing, keeping the faith and enduring to the end. I Pet 1:3-5.
No it doesnt apply to all men, thats the ungodly teaching of universalism.. So you are being an enemy to the death of Christ, stating that it doesnt save, when you have been provided scripture that it does. May God have mercy on your wickedness !
This is where you are confused as to what scripture is teaching regarding Christ's work, which is wholly done by Christ and is effected on not just all men but the world, Mankind gets saved from death which is why and how we can even have a resurrection of the dead. God will raise all men in the resurrection ONLY because Christ defeated death. Christ restored mankind to incorruptibility and immortality, I Cor 15:52-53, This would not be possible unless Christ did what is stated in I Cor 15:20-22. Read I Cor 15:13-19. If you do not believe all men have been saved from death, your faith is futile, it is in vain. BUT Christ has been raised,....since by man came death, so by man(Christ) came the resurrection. vs 22 cannot be twisted to mean anything but that all men will be made alive. Then go back to vs 52-53.
You are using the word "salvation" ONLY to refer to salvation through faith. It is the resurrection of all men, the reconcilement of the world, that permits Christ to call all men to repentance to be saved. Pertaining to faith, no one is saved in the past tense. It is all future. It is his victory over death and sin which was the power of satan over us. Heb 2:14-15. Another text explains this in Eph 2:1-6 and scripture, puts the phrase -( by grace have ye been saved) in parenthesis. So that one does not get confused with the use of Salvation through faith in vs8.
You may be confused if you think this is in the present. It is not. It all transpires in the eschotan as the verses indicate.
You are really confused. I have said nothing in support of universalism. You are confused about scriptures teaching on the work of Christ. You conflate Christ's work and man's response to God's call to believe, repent and be saved.
I'll keep it simple for you. Just take I Cor 15, 12-22. How do you interpret what it says.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Oh, I'm not confused at all. Don't confuse a difference of opinion with "confusion!" You appear to be saying that part of the act of Christ's atonement, or redemption, has to do with raising all men from the dead. And as I've said before, I don't believe Christ died to save mankind from annihilation. When we were judged sinners, as mankind, the judgment was exile from God's Kingdom, which is spiritual death.
However, God in His mercy never intended to spiritually kill everyone--only those who reject His redemption, who do not choose to benefit from Christ's atonement for their sins. Sins put mankind outside of the Garden. Atonement preserves our hope of returning to Paradise. Annihilation was never the problem, or at the very least I don't recall God ever saying that Mankind was in danger of annihilation, or complete extermination from all existence.
It is the resurrection to immortality, which is otherwise defined as, Eternal Life, that Christ died to give those who believe and who trust in him. All will be raised, but that is not benefiting from the atonement of Christ. Benefiting from Christ's atonement is being restored into a renewed relationship with God, one that will ultimately never pass away.
I would respond to the rest of your post, but you began with an assumption I can't go along with. Christ did not die so that all will come back into existence. Mankind never ceases to exist. We only cease to be encased in physical bodies at death--not lose consciousness of our being.
Rather, Christ died for our eternal salvation, making us the recipients of Eternal Life, or eternal fellowship with God. This is a blessed state, as opposed to those who continue to exist and have separated themselves from God's eternal fellowship. They have chosen, instead, to live on their own choices, and choose God only when they see fit.
Man was never judged sinners by God. God permitted Satan to condemn man to death. Dust to Dust, Gen 3:19. Heb 2:14-16. We sin because we are dead, fallen. Rom 5:12-19. The context is all about physical death as the result of the condemnation through Adam for his sin. I Cor 15:54-56 explains clearly the sting of death is sin. Or we sin because we are fallen creatures due to the condemnation of death.
You are very correct that God never intended to dissolve his creation including mankind Which is why He provided a means to restore His creation as it was created, to be eternal and man to attain immortality through obedience, Man failed in that work, but God promised a seed in Gen 3:15. Christ would become man to restore creation back to its original state, eternal and immortal. I Cor 15: 20-22. Those in hell will be incorruptible and immortal as well. If you believe that death is inconsequential and Christ did not save the world from death, then those who are not believers will remain in their state of mortality, death, dust to dust.
. Man was not created to be just a spirit or some bodiless soul. Christ in now in heaven with a glorified, sanctified, immortal, human body. The same that He possessed in this world at His birth, the same body He will have when He returns again. All men will be raised from physical death to put on incorruptibility and immortality. I Cor 15:52-53.
You say unbelievers will exist but you don't believe that they will have bodies as a human being in hell. They will not even be raised in the last day to stand in judgment. You have thrown out the whole chapter of I Cor 15, The resurrection of Christ gives life to all men, that is if all men have the same human body as Christ. Christ did not put on some form of a believers body as if their body is different and thus ONLY raised believers in the last day.
Immortality is NOT defined as eternal life. It is defined as a spiritual condition and does refer to believers. Those in hell will be eternal but eternal damnation.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
What??? What Bible are you reading from?
God didn't need Satan to condemn Man's act of rebellion against His word. Ours sins are against God--not Satan.
I agree and have not said anything different. I'm just explaining that physical death was the indication from God that He wanted mankind removed from Paradise, from eternal fellowship with Himself. However, that relationship can be restored if we choose to live by the redemption God provided for us through the atonement of His Son, Jesus.
We simply forfeit living our own way, which is what Adam and Eve did when they rebelled against God. We just have to forfeit that independent life, separated from God's word, to return to living exclusively in the Spirit of Christ. That way, our sins can be forgiven, as we have cast our lot with Christ, who forgives and cleanses us from every sin.
I'm not sure Man ever attempted to produce a work of redemption, but he certainly continues to do good, hoping that his sins will be forgiven. But Man never had the capacity to obtain Eternal Life--it is something only God can give.
He gave man that opportunity in the Garden of Eden to eat from the Tree of Life. But that's been taken away. By Christ's grace God can give it back to us again when we receive him.
As I said, I fully agree that all of mankind has eternal existence, and that all will be raised back into new bodies. But the Eternal Life promised us when we receive Christ is only for believers.
That is what the Bible means by "immortality"--not eternal existence, nor resurrection, but more, a resurrection to eternal fellowship with God. This is not a generic definition of "immortality," but rather, a very specific kind associated with the righteousness of Christ.
Yes, but that wasn't what the Atonement of Christ was for. That was already built into the word of God by which He created Man an eternal being. Christ's redemption is a matter of restoring a broken relationship between God and Man so that Man can once again have access to eternal Paradise.
I didn't say that at all! Where did I say that? I said that physical death removed them from this world so that they do not enjoy God's Kingdom here on earth in perpetuity. They can certainly be raised up in new bodies to live somewhere else. Where that is I don't know. It just will be outside of God's Paradise, in a place the Bible calls "Outer Darkness."
Nowhere in the Scriptures is this stated--certainly not in 1 Cor 15! The resurrection gives life only to believers, speaking of the resurrection to immortality I spoke of above. It only has to do with obtaining eternal fellowship with God, as opposed to a physical existence elsewhere, outside of God's Kingdom
I completely disagree with you. Immortality is indeed defined as Eternal Life, or eternal fellowship with the Lord. It is a spiritual condition of eternal blessedness to be enjoyed only by believers.
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Let's take it slow and easy so you might understand what scripture is actually saying. I Cor 15 vs13-14, if there is no resurrection of the dead then Christ is not risen. One would need to assume that you must of necessity believe that only some humans have died. But it clearly says all the dead, not some. Then vs 16 Paul repeats it, For if the dead do not rise then Christ is NOT risen. If he is not risen your faith is in vain. You would still be in your sins. It would be a failure of Christ if He did not raise the dead, not some or only believers who you again by necessity must believe only believers die and must be risen. vs 18 is even more precise. Even those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. Then we have the precise summary of the relation of the first Adam and the Second Adam. Christ indeed is risen, physically, this is NOT a spiritual resurrection as baptism. He is the first born of the dead, Everyone has and will die except those living when He comes again.
For since by man came death, by man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. We will again have our physical bodies, our souls and bodies will be reunited in the eschaton.
Then move to vs 52. at the trumpet the dead will be raised. not some, not just believers but all that have died.
They will be raised incorruptible. To be eternal whether eternal life or eternal damnation, death will cease to exist, The mortal, which is all men, must put on immortality. vs 56 says the opposite of what you have stated. You state that we sin and are separated from God which you call spiritual death. But vs 56 says that sin it the result of death, not the other way around. It is all about physical death. Christ becoming man to save mankind from the curse, the condemnation of death to Adam. physical death.
All the other many texts I have cited all say the very same thing.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Fine, let's look at it carefully...
1 Cor 15.12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
All this says is that God raises the dead. Nothing here about Christ enabling people to rise from the dead en masse, except for the purpose of experiencing resurrection to new bodies. Specifically, Christ is doing something in particular for *believers.* He will give them a special kind of resurrection to immortality.
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the first fruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.
This is speaking of "those who belong" to Christ. They will bear the image of Christ, the "heavenly man." The fact all men are raised from the dead does not mean all men will bear the image of the heavenly man!
54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
This is not speaking of "all men," but rather of the kind of "immortality" that befits those who are raised up to bear the image of the man of heaven, Christ. They are to be distinguished from those who have rejected Christ and are to be raised up and condemned by the death of Christ, for having rejected him like those who had him crucified. They will be raised up to face eternal judgment, and not to bear the image of the heavenly man, nor to put on immortality as such, bearing the image of Christ.
I did state that our Sin would have led us to spiritual death, had there been no atonement for our Sin. But there was, and Christ provided it. So we physically died, but we did not die spiritually.
The passage does *not* say that Sin is the result of Death. Rather, Death is the judgment for Sin. Physical death removes us from God's Kingdom on this earth. We can only be restored, physically, by a resurrection to immortality such that we bear the image of Christ. Christ died and rose again so that those who believe in and trust in him can be raised up from the dead and permanently restored to the Kingdom of God on this earth.
Those who reject Christ will indeed be raised up again. But they will be raised up for judgment, and then permanently separated from this world by an eternal fire that permanently removes them to Outer Darkness, wherever that is. There they will serve God in a different way, but will not enjoy the pleasures of God's presence, the joy of righteousness, and the eternal blessings which we have through Christ.
You have a very disconnected explanation. You change the meaning of words to fit some prescribed view that is not present. You want all dead to only mean some dead. Your view leaves Christ not able to save to the utmost all that have died because of Adam. No place does this context separate believers from unbelievers. In fact, your view does exactly what Paul states in vs 18. Even those IN Christ WILL PERISH because you do not believe Christ assumed our humanity which makes all men the very same in nature. He assumed our human nature, if Christ arose from the dead, then by necessity must all men. Man is of the earth, made from the earth which is why scripture makes it plain that the world suffered the same judgement, death, thus Christ redeemed, reconciled justified the world to Himself. Which is why we can speak of a new heaven and a new earth.
You also twisted the meaning of I Cor 15: 56. It is not speaking of what you call spiritual death, but the death that resulted from Adam's sin.
Col 1:17-20, There is NO distinction here between believers and others. Christ reconciled all things that are in Him. All things consists in Christ.
You feel the need to change the meaning of incorruptibility and immortality. Those in hell will not die a physical death again, that is the meaning of incorruptibility.
Those in hell will also be immortal, meaning that they will not be mortal, able to die physically again. Their status in hell is eternal, forever as human beings.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
That is just how I read it. I italicized the words emphasizing that Paul was focusing on the saved, and not on *all men.* Of course, all men are assumed to be raised from the dead, but the righteous are dealt with separately and with focus.
I don't believe in Universal Salvation. The fact all rise from the dead does not mean all get saved. Some are raised to face judgment. Others, who Paul emphasizes, experience the reward of the righteous, and are raised immortal. They receive Eternal Life, as opposed to just eternal existence, which all men have by virtue of their having been created by God for this.
Sorry, I italicized where the focus is exclusively on believers. Paul had no reason to speak to unbelievers, since they don't believe.
Do you just make things up? Where did I say Christ did not assume our humanity? Please quote that, if you will? I'm sure I didn't because I don't believe that. I do believe that Christ was fully man, and I've already stated that.
As I said, all men rise from the dead because God created all of us in the image of God for eternal existence. That does not mean that if we don't obey God we will receive Eternal Life. You equate Eternal Existence with Immortality, and you equate Immortality with Resurrection from the Dead as if all men who rise from the dead will experience Immortality in the sense of having eternal fellowship with God.
But as I said, the way Paul uses the word "Immortality," he is referring to a special kind of indestructible, eternal existence in which believers put on Christ and obtain his special resurrection unto righteousness, such that we bear the image of the heavenly man, ie Christ
I didn't "twist" anything--I just gave you my version of the same. I could just as easily say *you* twist it, but where is that going to get us?
I didn't say 1 Cor 15.56 is speaking of "Spiritual Death." What I said is that Man's Sin was destined to lead to Spiritual Death unless he makes use of the Atonement of Christ.
1 Cor 15.56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
I'd like to point out 2 things here. 1) Paul is specifically referring to *believers,* who have the "victory." 2) It is saying that Sin is a "sting," such as like a bee sting. Once we disobey God's word to our conscience, we separate ourselves from God and suffer a "sting." And this, in turn, leads to separation from God in this world, or mortal death. If we do not avail ourselves of the atonement of Christ, this separation will lead to Spiritual Death, or eternal separation from God.
I'm not changing anything. You're failing to see the context in which Paul applies these words. He is specifically and explicitly applying them to the reward of believers when they rise from the dead, when they become immortal. It is obviously different from the resurrection unbelievers experience, and Paul is not at all referring to them in this.
Again, Hell itself is dissolved and thrown into the Lake of Fire, along with all of the unbelievers who have forsaken God's Kingdom. They will live in Outer Darkness, outside of God's Eternal Kingdom.
Again, you are applying these terms in a very general way. Paul is applying them very specifically to *believers,* not at all meaning to exclude unbelievers from the sense in which you apply immortality and incorruptibility. Again, Paul is applying these terms specifically to believers in the sense that when they are raised from the dead, they will eternally put on the image of the man from heaven, namely Christ.
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RG
False Teaching. Mankind isn't saved from death. Some of mankind will go into the second death Rev 20:6,14
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
And they had no part in the first resurrection.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
False Teaching. Mankind isn't saved from death. Some of mankind will go into the second death Rev 20:6,14
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
And they had no part in the first resurrection.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
You have stated that Christs death doesnt save. Thats a false teaching, you have been provided scripture stating that by His Stripes, we were healed, that is those He died for. Now healed means Salvation... Then you lie and say everyone is healed by Christs death, scripture doesnt teach that, thats universalism. 1 Peter is limited to Gods elect, not all mankind.
I just have to agree to disagree. You have some different views of who Christ is and what He accomplished. I do have some questions though based on your view. Do you believe man was created mortal? I ask this because your view constantly separates different kinds of men, believers and unbelievers as if once someone believes their human nature changes. In fact you stated that
Your view, in my mind, questions why you believe Christ needed to be raised from the dead when it has no effect. Actually a blood sacrifice to be sufficient does not require a resurrection.
You said, " Once we disobey God's word to our conscience, we separate ourselves from God and suffer a "sting." And this, in turn, leads to separation from God in this world, or mortal death.'
This is an amazing statement. So if people sin and do not accept Christ, then that sin (sting) leads to mortal death. I don't know of anyone so dying., except Adam. But I know that all men, since Adam, believers and unbeliever, suffer mortal death in this life. So does that mean all believers fall away in this life because all men die a mortal death?
You said, "Again, you are applying these terms in a very general way. Paul is applying them very specifically to *believers,* not at all meaning to exclude unbelievers from the sense in which you apply immortality and incorruptibility. Again, Paul is applying these terms specifically to unbelievers (sic, I think you mean believers) in the sense that when they are raised from the dead, they will eternally put in the image of the man from heaven, namely Christ."
From what scripture says about Christ becoming man, assuming our very human nature, and restoring that nature, you make the statement that there must of necessity be two different human natures. There is the human nature, as I mentioned above seems to change when one becomes a believer, but another human nature that unbelievers have who will not experience what Christ accomplished by assuming our human nature.
Do you hold to the view of limited atonement?
By the way universal salvation for me is a heresy as it has been through Christianity from the beginning.
Your reading comprehension is not good. I actually stated that Christ saved man twice. First by His resurrection from mortal, physical death and then believers will be saved from the second death which is a spiritual death, not a mortal death.
The first resurrection for the believer is baptism. A person is immersed into water his sinful nature dies, and then is raised to a new life in Christ. Rom 6 is called the baptism chapter.
People who deny their baptism is the same as one who never was baptised and had no part in the first resurrection.
And hell is separation form God, a second death, a spiritual one.
You teaching a false message. The death of Christ for His Sheep, it saved them, healed them, converted them to God 1 Pet 3:18
18 For Christ also hath once suffered[Died] for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
His being put to death once, for those He died, Gods Sheep, it brings them to God, which is conversion
1 Pet 2:24-25
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. But I'm not fine with your saying I have "different views of who Christ is." I hold to biblical authority and to the creeds. This is *who Christ is!*
You are here entering into a semantics difficulty. "Mortal" means different things depending on the context. It can mean simply the ability to die. It can also refer to human degradation by sin, making it destined for death.
Adam was created capable of dying, though only if he sinned. At the point he had not yet sinned, he was not, in a sense, "mortal." But neither was he "immortal," or fixed as an innocent being. He had the capacity to fall from innocence and into what we often refer to as a state of "mortality." All men die because all men have a Sin Nature. Therefore, all of mankind are mortal.
There is the fallen nature of Man, and the regenerate nature of Man when he lives under the control of God's Word. When mankind lives autonomously, he may at times choose to obey or cooperate with God's Word. But inasmuch as he is in charge, his nature is fallen and is degenerate. But when men not just occasionally cooperate with God's Word and chose instead to commit their entire life to the authority of Christ they will reflect a new nature, consistent with that choice.
Yes, the nature of fallen Man and the nature of Christian men are very different, one led by the corrupt flesh, and the other led by the Spirit of God. One produces the fruit of selfish Man, whereas the other produces the fruits of the Spirit. I should think you know this?
I never said Christ's resurrection had no effect. He represented God's view of Man universally, as condemned to death as autonomous men and saved by grace for those who cast themselves upon the mercy of Christ. Those who unite with Christ spiritually benefit from his virtues as well as from his salvation, or grace. Those who reject his grace face the sin by which Christ was rejected.
All will, like Christ, be raised from the dead. But some will be raised to judgment for having rejected Christ, and some will be raised to immortality in the sense that their fellowship with God will become inviolable and indestructible.
This is what "immortality" means in context--not just eternal existence, nor the inability to die, but rather, inability to be separated from the virtuous and blessed life of Christ. Paul is speaking of a technical application of "immortality" to believers in the sense of inability to die *spiritually.*
I'm not making an "amazing statement." I'm stating what the Scriptures state, namely that Sin has caused and continues to cause all men to be subject to mortality, or death. We already have a Sin Nature, and thus are mortal and subject to death. But we continue to sin, having that Sin Nature, confirming the original sentence, that being sinners we must physically die.
Yes, thanks for the correction. Paul is applying "immortality" and "resurrection" in a special way to believers, and not to unbelievers. Even though unbelievers I agree will never suffer extinction, and in that sense become "immortal," that is not the way Paul is applying the term "immortal." He is speaking of a spiritual relationship with God, a relationship that when originally broken led to the physical death of all men.
So for unregenerate, unsaved Man there will be eternal existence spiritually separated from the life and virtues of Christ, which we call "spiritual death." But for regenerate, saved Man there will be immortality and resurrection to the new life of the Spirit, comprising an eternal, unbreakable relationship with God.
As I said above, I hold to the biblical view that the regenerate nature of the Christian is different from the unregenerate nature of the unbeliever. Yielding not just part of our life, but our whole life to Christ yields a new nature, made after the image of Christ.
As such, I do believe that atonement suffices only for the believers in terms of giving them this new nature. How can a sacrifice of atonement reconcile people who do not make use of that atonement, who do not repent of their sins and who therefore do not actually obtain forgiveness?
But Christ did make atonement *for the whole world* in the sense that it made grace available for all men. It just isn't effective in changing their lives or in giving them an eternal relationship with God if they don't make use of it and repent of their autonomous living.
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Where have I ever stated that Christ's death doesn't save?
You have provided no text(s) that stated that healed means conversion. Even a dictionary as a christian meaning does not define conversion as being healed.
I explained what the Bible teaches and it clearly states that Christ in His humanity and by His resurrection did indeed save mankind, the world even from death. Death is mortal death. That is why Christ needed to be raised from the dead, because He possessed our human nature and raised it to life.
What I stated is not Universalism. You aught to study these false teaching so you know what you are talking about.
You need to show by texts, not your opinion of them, that clearly state God died only for the elect.
Here are some texts that say otherwise, Heb 2:10, I John 2:2, John 3:16-17, Rom 5:18, II Cor 5:18-19, Col 1:19-20.
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