What does the Bible say about Grace and Good Works?

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Keturah

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@Wynona

Sorry to inform you, but Robert Gwin (who posted in this thread) is a JW (Jehovah’s Witness). If you are unfamiliar with the JW Religion, you can check out why it is unbiblical, and wrong here:

CB Thread - Reasons Why the Jehovah’s Witness Religion is False.

I hope this helps, and may the LORD bless you, Wynona.

This is so very unchristlike of you.
So what you stance ? Hmmm non -denominal.
If you are unable to contain yourself UNLESS you've been appointed the sorter of sheeps and goats, please refrain.

Your input is useless!
 

Keturah

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Grace is the unmerited favor of God in which God shows us mercy, kindness, and patience instead of the judgment that we deserve for sinning against Him. God's grace cannot be earned by our actions. Grace is based on the character of God and not on our sincerity, performance, or best efforts to keep the law. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 11:6 - "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

We are saved by grace through faith, not works, not of ourselves it is the gift of God. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Galatians 2:21 - "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

2 Timothy 1:9 - "who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity."

Yet God's grace (enabling power) operates sovereignly in the lives of believers.

1 Corinthians 15:10 - But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.

2 Corinthians 1:12 - For our proud confidence is this: the testimony of our conscience, that in holiness and godly sincerity, not in fleshly wisdom but in the grace of God, we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially toward you.

2 Corinthians 12:9 - And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age.

Very good and righteous explanation of Grace.

Now please if you wish explain works biblically also. Few understand this part.

Thank you,Dan.
 
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Keturah

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The common slogan often used by some preachers is;
"We are saved FOR good works, not BY them."

However any mention of Jewish LAW usually ruffles the feathers of many who read about it. Please remember the Bible is a Jewish book written by Jews, about Jews and for Jews. Gentiles are invited to participate in God's good news, but aren't allowed to edit it.

That includes versions of religious law that have been skewed and reinvented by the church.

For instance, many object to my statement that NO ONE CAN BE SAVED APART FROM THE LAW. They adamantly proclaim the saved are above the LAW or that the LAW has been abolished. It hasn't. (Matt 5:17) On the other hand, preachers will arise to their pulpit and declare that everyone within earshot owes a tithe of their income to the church - usually 10%. This is a statement of Levitical LAW. So answer me this - if one is saved apart from the LAW how is that person subject to the LAW with regard to tithes and offerings?

There is no mention of tithing in the NT. Indeed it is part of the hypocrisy of the post-modern neo-gnostic church that declares one's salvation is free BUT subject to religious tax (tithe) for the rest of one's natural life following the Second Birth. Which is it? One cannot quote LAW and demand payment while proclaiming freedom from the LAW at the same time.

My second point here is one that's rarely discussed - if at all.

When discussions rage concerning LAW vs. GRACE the idea is often promoted that the church is above and beyond the restrictions of the LAW. So I ask - WHICH LAW? There were two.

Jesus lived by, preached by and died by the LAW. So did all the apostles. On the other hand, we often read Biblical words and writings that oppose another law. Which LAW leads to salvation and freedom? Which law binds and cripples? Obviously there are two.

Those that are cognizant of Jewish tradition literature and history will instantly respond with the knowledge of Torah vs. Talmud. One is the LAW of grace and the other is a law of works. One leads to salvation by pointing to Christ while the other (like the majority of Church types) insists upon tradition, good works and perverse adaptations of Biblical references. Gentile traditions and ceremonies are thus substituted for God's good LAW, but are no less hypocritical and ineffective as the Talmudic law condemned by the books of the New Covenant.

In today's theology Jesus could be defined as a Karaite Jew (as am I).

In other words the true Biblical debate is Torah vs. Talmud, NOT LAW vs. GRACE.

LAW & GRACE work together unto salvation. If one has not a basic understanding of Mosaic LAW then one cannot truly understand the precepts God is teaching in it - one cannot understand how and why GRACE works in the life of the believer.

This is a subject rarely addressed by the church. It's my hope some will consider it.

He who does not live by the LAW will die by the LAW (Romans 2:12).

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Hello,
I am a gentile, no Jewish blood whatsoever so I live under grace. BTW this thread is titled grace not law vs good works !
 

Bible Highlighter

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This is so very unchristlike of you.
So what you stance ? Hmmm non -denominal.
If you are unable to contain yourself UNLESS you've been appointed the sorter of sheeps and goats, please refrain.

Your input is useless!
Not true. It is not unChrist like to expose error or falsehood.
Jesus rebuked false beliefs.
Jesus called the the religious elite hypocrites.
Jesus said they ignored the weightier matters of the law like love, justice, faith, and mercy (See: Matthew 23:23, and Luke 11:42).

I mean, do you even know about the Jehovah’s Witnesses and their false beliefs?
They don’t follow the Bible alone as their authority.
The Watch Tower organization is also their authority.
Anything their JW leaders says are the words of God to them.

They don’t believe you are allowed to pray to Jesus.
Well, at one point in history they temporarily allowed it briefly for a special event, but they don’t believe that today.
There are many testimonies of how JW’s destroyed or ruined the lives of others.
You can Google it to find out if you like.

But here are a couple of articles that should help you to see what is really going on.


They try to handle sex scandals inside their organization instead of reporting it to the authorities.


I hope this helps, and may the Lord Jesus Christ bless you.
 
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mailmandan

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Very good and righteous explanation of Grace.

Now please if you wish explain works biblically also. Few understand this part.

Thank you,Dan.
Salvation by works appeals to man’s pride and forms the basis of other religions, except for Biblical Christianity. The natural or unregenerate man (1 Corinthians 2:14) does not fully understand the extent of his own sinfulness and absolute need for a Savior. (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:10-12; 23; 6:23) Now although we are not saved by works in general (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) believers are created in Christ Jesus FOR/UNTO good works that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10) Good works glorify God (Matthew 5:16) and are profitable to men (Titus 3:8) yet good works are the fruit of salvation and not the root of it.

Often we find folks who misunderstand passages like James 2:24, "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only” and believe that James is saying we are accounted as righteous/saved by works, but that is false. Taken in context of the entire passage (James 2:14-24), in James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Also, in James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

So man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24) Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*
 
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According to Scripture, Christians must live under the law of Christ, not the law of Moses. Do you agree?

Romans 7:4-6
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. - Romans 7:4-6
Mosaic LAW is denied by most of the gentile church.

Whether by systemic antisemitism or by the acceptance of pagan tradition, the church now regards the LAW as something to be despised. (2 Thessalonians 2:7) This is necessary for church leaders to manipulate their congregations into following them into error. Thus the LAW is disrespected and denied. Consequently all manner of demonic doctrines have been accepted as gospel when they are not. (1 Peter 4:17-18) The ONLY way to measure the truth of an interpretation of scripture is by using the LAW of Moses as a benchmark.

Jesus lived by Mosaic LAW, known as Torah or Pentateuch as it is referred to by the Latinized church. It is this LAW that defines SIN, tells us how to approach God (personally, not by a proxy priest as the Romans do) and what manner of sacrifice for SIN is acceptable. It is Mosaic LAW that's also referred to as the LAW of GRACE because it was authored by God who handed it to Moses and the Hebrew people (the Oracle of God - Acts 7:38). Moses AND Jesus both declared it was easy to keep God's LAW (Torah).

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. - (Deuteronomy 30:11)

Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light. - Matthew 11:29-30

Please note the above quoted verses both of which affirm Mosaic LAW. Today's church preaches as a doctrine of demons that it's impossible to keep the LAW - that it's too hard or difficult.

Jesus and the apostles denied the efficacy of the law of works, also known as Talmud.

THERE ARE TWO LAWS - Torah and Talmud. Torah is the law of grace. Talmud is the law of works.

Our Lord and His apostles claimed mankind wasn't bound by the demands of Talmud. Talmud was composed by Jewish priests and scholars during the Babylonian captivity. Later committed to paper it currently numbers more than 15,000 pages. Jewish scholars spend their entire lives studying Talmud without coming to a full understanding of it's difficulty.

The LAW/Torah has NOT been abolished, replaced or otherwise negated by the ideology of the church. In Matthew 5:17 Jesus is quoted as saying He came to fulfill the LAW NOT TO ABOLISH IT. What then is the purpose of GRACE? As demonstrated on Pentecost it is given to ENABLE those who follow Christ to live lives pleasing to God BY THE LAW.

Observance of Shavuot happens 50 days after Pesach/Passover/Easter on the Jewish calendar. Shavuot observes God's gift of the LAW to Moses upon the mountain.

Observance of Pentecost happens 50 days after Easter/Passover/Pesach on the Jewish calendar. Pentecost observes God's gift of GRACE upon the assembled disciples of Christ in Jerusalem.


Shavuot and Pentecost happen on the same calendar day.

This isn't a coincidence. It's God's way of demonstrating the importance of BOTH LAW & GRACE.

The 'law of Christ' you refer to is Mosaic LAW enabled and empowered by the Holy Spirit's gift of GRACE. The 'law of works', opposed by word and deed in the gospels and epistles, are the assembled religious traditions of Jews known as Talmud. Initially these traditions were Jewish, but when gentiles seized control of the faithful assembly their priests substituted their own rules, religious regulations and pagan traditions. Today the institutional church is not much different than institutional Judaism in regard to the observance of meaningless traditions THAT CANNOT SAVE. Today the church has fallen into the same trap as the Jews it despises.

The LAW of Moses is intended to be used as a benchmark to certify the doctrines and traditions of both church and synagogue.

Unfortunately the heart of man is corrupt to the point it has rejected God's good LAW and substituted its own. For example, the church today declares that 'membership saves'. The blood of Christ, specified by the LAW as the ONLY acceptable method of salvation, is generally rejected. Jews consider their tradition to be their justification. Thus a Jew who strictly observes tradition and Talmudic law can also admit to being an atheist without any perception of illogic. In the same way, a Christian who strictly observes church tradition and church rules of membership can also admit to being an agnostic without any perception of illogic.

The preceding paragraph is the main reason I've written this long post. My purpose in magnifying the LAW is to point out the deficiencies in church dogma - where it's wrong and why. How does one know a particular interpretation of the Bible is true or false? We can know this by comparing it to the LAW - the same LAW Jesus lived by, preached about and died to fulfill.

Apart from the LAW no one can be saved.

"If you want to make God laugh, tell Him about your plans." (Woody Allen)

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

PS In today's vernacular Jesus would be classified as a Karaite Jew (as am I).
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Very good and righteous explanation of Grace.

Now please if you wish explain works biblically also. Few understand this part.

Thank you,Dan.
First, Dan is promoting a sinful TV-show called Seinfeld in his avatar (With a picture of actor Jerry Seinfeld in a mailman outfit that is in each of his posts).

According to one article:

Most episodes of Seinfeld circuitously forward two worldviews: The first is that most people are bad (and not very smart). The second is that caring about other people is absurd (and not very practical). It is the most villainous sitcom ever made, particularly since its massive audience never seemed to fully grasp what it was literally seeing. This was true from its inception. There's an episode from the first season ("Male Unbonding") in which Jerry reconsiders his lifelong friendship with a self-absorbed man he hates. The relationship is based on nostalgia; as a child, the despised man's family owned a Ping-Pong table. Jerry longs to sever this relationship and resents that the man still desires his company. "I would have been friends with Stalin if he had a Ping-Pong table," he tells George (a different self-absorbed friend Jerry actually likes). All of this is funny, because Jerry Seinfeld is funny; it's also relatable, because adolescent familiarity sometimes lasts longer than it should. But consider what this premise is really doing: It is satirizing the notion that relationships matter. It suggests that healthy friendships are disposable, and that the commitments we make to nonessential acquaintances are absurd extensions of social politeness. And this is not the subtext. This is the text.

On Seinfeld, the characters express contempt for emotion. It is the weakest quality a human can possess. This could be demonstrated in roughly half of the show's 180 episodes, but one does so overtly: In an episode titled "The Serenity Now," Jerry's thirty-minute girlfriend (ex–Full House star Lori Loughlin) pushes him to get angry, simply to see if he has the ability to express any kind of emotion in any given scenario. This is both a commentary on Seinfeld's fictional character (who doesn't empathize with anyone) and a meta-commentary on Seinfeld's technical ability as an actor (which borders on nonexistent). When the girlfriend's plan succeeds, the floodgates open. Jerry becomes an emotional wreck who cries constantly, much to his own confusion ("What is this salty discharge?" he wonders aloud). His emotional instability makes him creepy and annoying, ultimately prompting him to propose marriage to Elaine for no rational reason. By the end of the episode, his hysteria has passed. Jerry returns to his former uncaring self, and everyone (including the audience) is relieved.

Source:

The Shoes,” Season 4, Episode 16

George is caught staring at his boss’ teenage daughter’s cleavage. His defense is that it was in his “field of vision.” The entire gang orchestrates a scenario for Elaine to show cleavage in front of his boss in order to demonstrate that when cleavage is visible, straight men are rendered powerless and cannot help but stare, justifying George’s ogling of a 15-year-old.


Source:

So I would not take biblical advise from a Christian who is promoting something sinful.
God never wants us to sin and or promote sin in any way.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Mosaic LAW is denied by most of the gentile church.

Whether by systemic antisemitism or by the acceptance of pagan tradition, the church now regards the LAW as something to be despised. (2 Thessalonians 2:7) This is necessary for church leaders to manipulate their congregations into following them into error. Thus the LAW is disrespected and denied. Consequently all manner of demonic doctrines have been accepted as gospel when they are not. (1 Peter 4:17-18) The ONLY way to measure the truth of an interpretation of scripture is by using the LAW of Moses as a benchmark.

Jesus lived by Mosaic LAW, known as Torah or Pentateuch as it is referred to by the Latinized church. It is this LAW that defines SIN, tells us how to approach God (personally, not by a proxy priest as the Romans do) and what manner of sacrifice for SIN is acceptable. It is Mosaic LAW that's also referred to as the LAW of GRACE because it was authored by God who handed it to Moses and the Hebrew people (the Oracle of God - Acts 7:38). Moses AND Jesus both declared it was easy to keep God's LAW (Torah).

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. - (Deuteronomy 30:11)

Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light. - Matthew 11:29-30

Please note the above quoted verses both of which affirm Mosaic LAW. Today's church preaches as a doctrine of demons that it's impossible to keep the LAW - that it's too hard or difficult.

Jesus and the apostles denied the efficacy of the law of works, also known as Talmud.

THERE ARE TWO LAWS - Torah and Talmud. Torah is the law of grace. Talmud is the law of works.

Our Lord and His apostles claimed mankind wasn't bound by the demands of Talmud. Talmud was composed by Jewish priests and scholars during the Babylonian captivity. Later committed to paper it currently numbers more than 15,000 pages. Jewish scholars spend their entire lives studying Talmud without coming to a full understanding of it's difficulty.

The LAW/Torah has NOT been abolished, replaced or otherwise negated by the ideology of the church. In Matthew 5:17 Jesus is quoted as saying He came to fulfill the LAW NOT TO ABOLISH IT. What then is the purpose of GRACE? As demonstrated on Pentecost it is given to ENABLE those who follow Christ to live lives pleasing to God BY THE LAW.

Observance of Shavuot happens 50 days after Pesach/Passover/Easter on the Jewish calendar. Shavuot observes God's gift of the LAW to Moses upon the mountain.

Observance of Pentecost happens 50 days after Easter/Passover/Pesach on the Jewish calendar. Pentecost observes God's gift of GRACE upon the assembled disciples of Christ in Jerusalem.


Shavuot and Pentecost happen on the same calendar day.

This isn't a coincidence. It's God's way of demonstrating the importance of BOTH LAW & GRACE.

The 'law of Christ' you refer to is Mosaic LAW enabled and empowered by the Holy Spirit's gift of GRACE. The 'law of works', opposed by word and deed in the gospels and epistles, are the assembled religious traditions of Jews known as Talmud. Initially these traditions were Jewish, but when gentiles seized control of the faithful assembly their priests substituted their own rules, religious regulations and pagan traditions. Today the institutional church is not much different than institutional Judaism in regard to the observance of meaningless traditions THAT CANNOT SAVE. Today the church has fallen into the same trap as the Jews it despises.

The LAW of Moses is intended to be used as a benchmark to certify the doctrines and traditions of both church and synagogue.

Unfortunately the heart of man is corrupt to the point it has rejected God's good LAW and substituted its own. For example, the church today declares that 'membership saves'. The blood of Christ, specified by the LAW as the ONLY acceptable method of salvation, is generally rejected. Jews consider their tradition to be their justification. Thus a Jew who strictly observes tradition and Talmudic law can also admit to being an atheist without any perception of illogic. In the same way, a Christian who strictly observes church tradition and church rules of membership can also admit to being an agnostic without any perception of illogic.

The preceding paragraph is the main reason I've written this long post. My purpose in magnifying the LAW is to point out the deficiencies in church dogma - where it's wrong and why. How does one know a particular interpretation of the Bible is true or false? We can know this by comparing it to the LAW - the same LAW Jesus lived by, preached about and died to fulfill.

Apart from the LAW no one can be saved.

"If you want to make God laugh, tell Him about your plans." (Woody Allen)

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

PS In today's vernacular Jesus would be classified as a Karaite Jew (as am I).
Paul says if you seek to be justified by the Law you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). Christians are to serve in newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (Romans 7:6). We cannot be justified by the Law of Moses (Acts 13:39). Gentile Christians were told that they did not have to keep the Law of Moses (See: Acts 15:5, Acts 15:24-29). Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So Christians are not under the 613 Laws of Moses (even though certain moral laws have been repeated or carried over into the New Covenant - like: Do not steal, do not covet, do not murder, etcetera - which is fulfilled if we obey in the New Covenant way of loving our neighbor - Romans 13:8-10). We are to love the brethren, and love our enemies. We are to obey God in our loving actions in helping the poor, preaching the gospel, providing for our own, etcetera. This is done from a pure heart of love (1 Corinthians 13).
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Romans 11:6 - "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
@Keturah

Second, while I care for Dan‘s soul as a human being, and I am commanded by God to love Him, I do not love his belief when it comes to this topic. So I respectfully disagree with Dan on his interpretations on grace verses (particularly this one verse above).

Romans 9-11 is dealing with unsaved Israel (As a nation) because they rejected Jesus Christ as their Messiah. So Romans 11:6 is speaking to the unsaved Jew who was keeping the 613 Laws of Moses (and they overemphasized the obedience of the Law at the expense of God’s grace - See: the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee in Luke 18:9-14 where Jesus rebukes the Pharisee for not doing what the Tax Collector had done). Read these chapters for yourself to confirm this for yourself.

At the Jerusalem council in Acts 15, we read about how Gentile Christians were being deceived into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved. Circumcision is a part of the laws of Moses (Which was a practice that pre-dated back to Abraham’s time). For if a person thought they had to be circumcised to be initially saved, they would be making the Law or works the entrance gate to salvation, and the foundation of their salvation. This is why Paul was saying… if it is works it is no more of grace because Christians are initially saved by God’s grace (Which is a process of salvation that is without works) Because we are saved initially by His grace and mercy and by a belief alone in the gospel message (Which is in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 that says that we believe that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and risen the third day - which is for our salvation). Paul himself addressed the problem of those who thought they had to be circumcised to be saved in Galatians 5:2 when he said that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing, and then in verse 4 he says if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This would be the Old Law because circumcision was a part of the Laws of Moses and not a part of the Laws given to us by Christ and His followers. Romans 7:6 says we are to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. The oldness of the letter is the Torah or the 613 Laws of Moses. So in Romans 11:6, Paul was referring to…

#1. Our Initial Salvation by God’s grace (Which is a process of salvation without works), and:​
#2. How we are not saved by the works of the 613 Laws of Moses (as a whole even though certain laws have been carried over or repeated into the Laws that come from Christ and His followers in the New Testament).​
#3. Works ALONE Salvationism that did not include God’s grace whatsoever (Because of the problem of those who thought they had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved).​

How do I know that works are required later as a part of our Sanctification involving our salvation (After we are saved by God’s grace)?

Works For Salvation Verses
(After We are Saved By God’s Grace):

  1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (James 2:24).
  2. “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).
  3. 10 “For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:10, and Titus 1:16).
  4. “And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).
  5. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).
  6. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
  7. “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee ? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee ? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:34-46).
  8. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).
  9. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).
  10. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” (John 15:5-6).
  11. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).
  12. “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:” (Hebrews 12:14).
  13. “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).
  14. “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:4).
  15. “If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,…” (1 Timothy 6:3-4).
  16. “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” (1 Timothy 5:8).
  17. ”Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.” (John 8:51).
  18. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).
  19. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.” (Titus 3:8). When was the last time you heard a sermon on good works? We are to affirm these things constantly according to Titus 3:8. “And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.” (Titus 3:14). We are to learn to maintain good works so that we are not unfruitful. Which leads into the next group of verses (involving the point on being unfruitful or unprofitable).
(Continued in next post):
 
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Bible Highlighter

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#20. “His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21). Then he which had received the one talent came and said,… ”And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:” (Matthew 25:24a-26). “And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).
 

Eternally Grateful

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what does the bible say about grace and works?

Romans 11:6

And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Romans 4:4

Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

it is simple. it is one or the other.. it can not be both.

there are two ways to heaven

1. works
2. grace

for those who are trying by works. God has set the standard required.. Good luck in exceeding that standard
 

Keturah

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First, Dan is promoting a sinful TV-show called Seinfeld in his avatar (With a picture of actor Jerry Seinfeld in a mailman outfit that is in each of his posts).

According to one article:

Most episodes of Seinfeld circuitously forward two worldviews: The first is that most people are bad (and not very smart). The second is that caring about other people is absurd (and not very practical). It is the most villainous sitcom ever made, particularly since its massive audience never seemed to fully grasp what it was literally seeing. This was true from its inception. There's an episode from the first season ("Male Unbonding") in which Jerry reconsiders his lifelong friendship with a self-absorbed man he hates. The relationship is based on nostalgia; as a child, the despised man's family owned a Ping-Pong table. Jerry longs to sever this relationship and resents that the man still desires his company. "I would have been friends with Stalin if he had a Ping-Pong table," he tells George (a different self-absorbed friend Jerry actually likes). All of this is funny, because Jerry Seinfeld is funny; it's also relatable, because adolescent familiarity sometimes lasts longer than it should. But consider what this premise is really doing: It is satirizing the notion that relationships matter. It suggests that healthy friendships are disposable, and that the commitments we make to nonessential acquaintances are absurd extensions of social politeness. And this is not the subtext. This is the text.

On Seinfeld, the characters express contempt for emotion. It is the weakest quality a human can possess. This could be demonstrated in roughly half of the show's 180 episodes, but one does so overtly: In an episode titled "The Serenity Now," Jerry's thirty-minute girlfriend (ex–Full House star Lori Loughlin) pushes him to get angry, simply to see if he has the ability to express any kind of emotion in any given scenario. This is both a commentary on Seinfeld's fictional character (who doesn't empathize with anyone) and a meta-commentary on Seinfeld's technical ability as an actor (which borders on nonexistent). When the girlfriend's plan succeeds, the floodgates open. Jerry becomes an emotional wreck who cries constantly, much to his own confusion ("What is this salty discharge?" he wonders aloud). His emotional instability makes him creepy and annoying, ultimately prompting him to propose marriage to Elaine for no rational reason. By the end of the episode, his hysteria has passed. Jerry returns to his former uncaring self, and everyone (including the audience) is relieved.

Source:

The Shoes,” Season 4, Episode 16

George is caught staring at his boss’ teenage daughter’s cleavage. His defense is that it was in his “field of vision.” The entire gang orchestrates a scenario for Elaine to show cleavage in front of his boss in order to demonstrate that when cleavage is visible, straight men are rendered powerless and cannot help but stare, justifying George’s ogling of a 15-year-old.


Source:

So I would not take biblical advise from a Christian who is promoting something sinful.
God never wants us to sin and or promote sin in any way.
Whoa, whoa you are much worse than I really thought mister. Full of hate, arrogance and anger.
Have you met the saviour ?
Have you been born again ?

If the answer is yes, then you have LOST your first love. Please ask for forgiveness and stop attacking folks. Yes it is an attack on Dan not what he said but Dan for having that as his avatar opposed to grace that he shared. You need a leash or reign BH!
 

Keturah

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@Keturah

Second, while I care for Dan‘s soul as a human being, and I am commanded by God to love Him, I do not love his belief when it comes to this topic. So I respectfully disagree with Dan on his interpretations on grace verses (particularly this one verse above).

Romans 9-11 is dealing with unsaved Israel (As a nation) because they rejected Jesus Christ as their Messiah. So Romans 11:6 is speaking to the unsaved Jew who was keeping the 613 Laws of Moses (and they overemphasized the obedience of the Law at the expense of God’s grace - See: the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee in Luke 18:9-14 where Jesus rebukes the Pharisee for not doing what the Tax Collector had done). Read these chapters for yourself to confirm this for yourself.

At the Jerusalem council in Acts 15, we read about how Gentile Christians were being deceived into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved. Circumcision is a part of the laws of Moses (Which was a practice that pre-dated back to Abraham’s time). For if a person thought they had to be circumcised to be initially saved, they would be making the Law or works the entrance gate to salvation, and the foundation of their salvation. This is why Paul was saying… if it is works it is no more of grace because Christians are initially saved by God’s grace (Which is a process of salvation that is without works) Because we are saved initially by His grace and mercy and by a belief alone in the gospel message (Which is in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 that says that we believe that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and risen the third day - which is for our salvation). Paul himself addressed the problem of those who thought they had to be circumcised to be saved in Galatians 5:2 when he said that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing, and then in verse 4 he says if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This would be the Old Law because circumcision was a part of the Laws of Moses and not a part of the Laws given to us by Christ and His followers. Romans 7:6 says we are to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. The oldness of the letter is the Torah or the 613 Laws of Moses. So in Romans 11:6, Paul was referring to…

#1. Our Initial Salvation by God’s grace (Which is a process of salvation without works), and:​
#2. How we are not saved by the works of the 613 Laws of Moses (as a whole even though certain laws have been carried over or repeated into the Laws that come from Christ and His followers in the New Testament).​
#3. Works ALONE Salvationism that did not include God’s grace whatsoever (Because of the problem of those who thought they had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved).​

How do I know that works are required later as a part of our Sanctification involving our salvation (After we are saved by God’s grace)?

Works For Salvation Verses
(After We are Saved By God’s Grace):

  1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (James 2:24).
  2. “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).
  3. 10 “For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:10, and Titus 1:16).
  4. “And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).
  5. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).
  6. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
  7. “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee ? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee ? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:34-46).
  8. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).
  9. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).
  10. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” (John 15:5-6).
  11. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).
  12. “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:” (Hebrews 12:14).
  13. “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).
  14. “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:4).
  15. “If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,…” (1 Timothy 6:3-4).
  16. “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” (1 Timothy 5:8).
  17. ”Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.” (John 8:51).
  18. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).
  19. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.” (Titus 3:8). When was the last time you heard a sermon on good works? We are to affirm these things constantly according to Titus 3:8. “And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.” (Titus 3:14). We are to learn to maintain good works so that we are not unfruitful. Which leads into the next group of verses (involving the point on being unfruitful or unprofitable).
(Continued in next post):


You are a false twister of the gospel command to love for if that post was in love , I'm a stone and Jesus needs to raise stones up as Abraham's children.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Whoa, whoa you are much worse than I really thought mister. Full of hate, arrogance and anger.
Have you met the saviour ?
Have you been born again ?

If the answer is yes, then you have LOST your first love. Please ask for forgiveness and stop attacking folks. Yes it is an attack on Dan not what he said but Dan for having that as his avatar opposed to grace that he shared. You need a leash or reign BH!
amen

when people have lost an argument, they resort to trying to attack the other person.. try to discredit them.. that is what happens with legalism.. they get to the point they have no argument, so they resort to character attacks..

Dan is actually a mailman.. that is why he uses that avatar. he is not promoting Seinfeld, He is promoting his line of work.

Bible highlighter can't get out of his own way.
 

Keturah

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Not true. It is not unChrist like to expose error or falsehood.
Jesus rebuked false beliefs.
Jesus called the the religious elite hypocrites.
Jesus said they ignored the weightier matters of the law like love, justice, faith, and mercy (See: Matthew 23:23, and Luke 11:42).

I mean, do you even know about the Jehovah’s Witnesses and their false beliefs?
They don’t follow the Bible alone as their authority.
The Watch Tower organization is also their authority.
Anything their JW leaders says are the words of God to them.

They don’t believe you are allowed to pray to Jesus.
Well, at one point in history they temporarily allowed it briefly for a special event, but they don’t believe that today.
There are many testimonies of how JW’s destroyed or ruined the lives of others.
You can Google it to find out if you like.

But here are a couple of articles that should help you to see what is really going on.


They try to handle sex scandals inside their organization instead of reporting it to the authorities.


I hope this helps, and may the Lord Jesus Christ bless you.

I know about other gospels,other faiths and other beliefs but Jesus said to let the tares and wheat grow together and in the final harvest he will do the reaping. The false one always is trying to take over where God planted. This started in heaven.

Your commission is to share the gospel in the fields and be a sower not a reaper.

This is an attack against Robert not his beliefs, separate these when you defend you own beliefs !
 
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Keturah

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Salvation by works appeals to man’s pride and forms the basis of other religions, except for Biblical Christianity. The natural or unregenerate man (1 Corinthians 2:14) does not fully understand the extent of his own sinfulness and absolute need for a Savior. (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:10-12; 23; 6:23) Now although we are not saved by works in general (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) believers are created in Christ Jesus FOR/UNTO good works that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10) Good works glorify God (Matthew 5:16) and are profitable to men (Titus 3:8) yet good works are the fruit of salvation and not the root of it.

Often we find folks who misunderstand passages like James 2:24, "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only” and believe that James is saying we are accounted as righteous/saved by works, but that is false. Taken in context of the entire passage (James 2:14-24), in James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Also, in James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

So man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24) Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*
Amen, Brother Dan, so glad to see your faith. I'll look for you on the other side of this life.


Bountiful blessings to your house !
 

Bible Highlighter

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what does the bible say about grace and works?

Romans 11:6

And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Romans 4:4

Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
Both sets of verses above here are talking about the problem of Circumcision done for salvation (Which would be Works ALONE Salvationism without God’s grace in our Initial Salvation). See Acts 15:1, Acts 15:5, Acts 15:24, Galatians 5:2, Romans 2:25-29, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, and Galatians 2:3. It’s not saying that works of faith are not required as a part of entering the kingdom AFTER we are saved by God’s grace (See again my list of verses in Post #30).

Romans 3:27 says that boasting is excluded when it comes to the law of faith.
Boasting is the kind of works we see done in Ephesians 2:9 (Which would be man directed works and not works that we are created unto Christ Jesus to do - Ephesians 2:10). The works in verse 9 are different than the works in verse 10 in Ephesians 2.

Paul was also talking about how we are saved initially in these verses, as well. He was not saying you can refuse to ever do works of faith as a part of Sanctification. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says that God has chosen us to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit, and a belief of the truth (Which is a call of the gospel - verse 14).


2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
Right, not according to OUR works, but according to his own purpose and grace. So works are still required. We are created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:9). If one is unfruitful, they will be cast forth like a branch and burned (John 15:4-6).


it is simple. it is one or the other.. it can not be both.

there are two ways to heaven

1. works
2. grace

for those who are trying by works. God has set the standard required.. Good luck in exceeding that standard
No actual verse or Scripture says this.
It’s not one or the other. It’s both.

We are first saved by God’s grace initially (Which is a process of salvation without works) (Ephesians 2:8-9), AND THEN…
We enter the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth (Which God has chosen us to salvation through) (See again 2 Thessalonians 2:13). Sanctification involves well doing (i.e. good works) see Galatians 6:8-9.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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I know about other gospels,other faiths and other beliefs but Jesus said to let the tares and wheat grow together and in the final harvest he will do the reaping. The false one always is trying to take over where God planted. This started in heaven.

Your commission is to share the gospel in the fields and be a shower not a reaper.

This is an attack against Robert not his beliefs, separate these when you defend you own beliefs !
No. It does not mean you cannot expose or correct others who are in error. 2 Timothy 3:16 says all Scripture is profitable for correction.
In 1 Corinthians 5, Paul tells the Corinthian believers to kick out a fornicating Christian amongst them.
So Jesus is referring to how we are not to pull up the weeds as in reference to physically stopping them (by the use of physical force). We don’t kill our opponents or silence them permanently whereby they can never speak elsewhere. We don’t put muzzles on them, and or prevent them from writing ever again. We don’t take their life to stop them.
 

Bible Highlighter

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You are a false twister of the gospel command to love for if that post was in love , I'm a stone and Jesus needs to raise stones up as Abraham's children.
So you are doing the very thing that you condemn me for. I thought we as Christians are not allowed to judge other Christians according to your previously stated belief. In any event, I believe the gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. But there is also a CALL of the gospel, too. My guess is that you have no clue as to what the “call of the gospel” is. The call of the gospel is mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:14, and it is defined for us in 2 Thessalonians 2:13. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen you to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit, and a belief of the truth. That’s the call of the gospel. Are you heeding that call? All of us Christians should be heeding this call.

Read very slowly in prayer Galatians 6:8-9 in the King James Bible. It will shock you. It will tell you something that you have never been taught at church or by popular grace teachers.