If we are talking the Law of Moses (Pentateuch), it was "taken away" (Heb 10:9); plus the Law was only to Israel (Jews).
Law vs Gospel
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God has not "cast away His people" (Rom 11:1, 2). Those among Israel that believe in God but not in Christ are still in union with God, but not in fellowship; and the rest of Israel who do not believe in God have not obtained union with Him: "Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for (Jews not believing in God); but the election hath obtained it (Jews believing in God), and the rest were blinded" (Rom 11:7).This raises the question "Are jews still God's chosen people today even though they murdered his Son?"
I think not..-
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Rom 6:16-18 Paul made obedience necessary in order to be saved/freed from sin/justified.
Each person serves either "sin unto death" (condemnation) or 'obedience unto righteousness" (saved). The Bible does not teach DISobedience unto righteousness for no one can be saved living in disobedience to God...those who obey not will be lost (2 Thess 1:8). I serve obedience unto righteousness. Which do you serve? Luther's faith onlyism denies "obedience unto righteousness" saves.
Paul further said those Romans had been.....
1- servants of unrighteousness
2- but they obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine
3- then they were freed from sin/justified
Paul puts obedience BEFORE salvation/freed from sin/justification and nowhere does Paul contradict that. Nothing in 1 Cor 15 contradicts that. Paul in 1 Cor 15:1-4 says the gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. Christ died for every man (Heb 2:9) but every man will not be saved by the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for every man will not obey Christ (Heb 5:9).
Nowhere is obedience to God's will called a work of merit....nowhere ever.
Nowhere does the BIble teach the disobedient will be saved...nowhere ever.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
The OT law of Moses was taken out of the way and replaced by the law of Christ (Gal 6:2) which is also called the gospel, the faith, the truth, the royal law, etc. Therefore the gospel nor grace is void of the law of Christ for grace does not allow the Christian to live as he pleases in sin apart from the law of Christ. If the Christian can be saved living in sin transgressing the law of Christ, then that is what is called cheap grace and Paul never taught such an idea (Rom 5:1-2). Christians are those who are dead to sin and obedience to the law of Christ is the only way one makes himself dead to sin.
Dropship
Well-Known Member
Those in Israel who believe in Jesus are Christians and therefore heaven-bound, but the rest are surely going up the spout for rejecting Jesus..
"A liar denies Jesus is the Christ, and is an antichrist" (1 John 2:22-23)
One who is born again will live for God, because He will "work in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure" (Phl 2:13). If He doesn't "work in you," you're not His!
True , yet That Transforming “ Work” does not happen overnight and it is not always taking place in ways that are obviously visible to the self- Righteous and judgmental “ Fruit inspectors”.....
And there will be “ stumbling”and set backs that may call for Chastisement .....we are involved in “ spiritual warfare” once we escape Satan’s clutches by Turning to God with our Faith in Christ Jesus....
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Jim B
Well-Known Member
What, in your opinion, is specifically, the law of Christ? It is not the gospel, which is the news, nor is it faith, which id belief and trust, it is not "the truth" which is a description of reality, it is not "the royal law", whixh si clearly a different law.
So again, what is your definition of the law of Christ?
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
There are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants of sin unto death and servants of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of our salvation we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness." Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness." Works-salvationists ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" (Romans 6:16) and simply stresses "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience which "follow" saving faith in Christ are unto righteousness, as if we are saved by works.
Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..
Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.
Amen! Plain and simple, yet there are still those who are determined to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) The "not saved by works of merit, but saved by works of obedience" argument is a bogus argument and is a distinction without a difference. Any works that are "added" to salvation through faith and stand between a person and salvation would be works of merit.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
12 - "So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling
13 - for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for His good pleasure"
From v12, those Philippian Christians were obeying God and God works in those who obey Him, not in those who disobey Him. After giving the Philippians the responsiblity to work out their own salvation, Paul then tells them why they are to work out their own salvation in v13..."for" an explanatory preposition explaining what Paul just said in v12...when they obey God, that is God working in them. Their obedience and their working out their salvation is God working in them for God is working in them that obey Him. God would not be working in them if they were disobeying God.
And God working in men is not by some miraculous means overriding man's will or apart from man's obedience to God's word. God goes not just arbitrarily, unconditionally choose certain people to work in against their will. For God does not override man's free will nor is God a respecter of person's by unconditionally, arbitrarily working in one person and not another. As v12 points out, it was those Philippians choice to obey and their choice to obey by working out their own salvation. It makes no sense to command them to work out their own salvation if God is going to do that work for them or if it were impossible for them to do it.
So God is working in the Christian by means of His word as long as the Christian allows God's word to influence how they live, (Jn 15:7; Lk 8:15,21; Jn 8:31; etc).
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
The law of Christ (Gal 6:2) is Christ's NT. And Christ's NT law is also referred to as the gospel, the truth, the faith, the doctrine of Christ, the perfect law of liberty, the royal law. And Christ's NT law must be obeyed in order to be saved.
Christ's law is not different from the truth or the faith or the gospel for all are the one and same thing for one must obey the truth (Rom 2:8) have an obedient faith (Acts 6:7) and obey the gospel (2 Thess 1:8).
Christ's law is not one thing and truth something different. Nor is faith something different from Christ's law or truth or the gospel something different from the NT law truth or fauth all are one and the same thing. There is not a multitude of different, contradicting NT laws but just one faith (Eph 4:5), THE royal law, THE faith, THE truth and THE gospel.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Rom 6:16 speaks of being a servant of "OBEDIENCE unto righteonsess" it says nothing about being a servant of faith onlyism. Obedience and faith onlyism are two completely opposite, different things. Nowhere ever does Paul say 'faith only unto righteousness'.
And you continue with the false accusation that obedience is a work of merit when it is not Hence obedience unto righteousness" is not "works based" whereby one is trying to earn salvation. Yourself, as all others here, have failed to show one example in the Bible where a person's obedience to God is called a work of merit whereby God owed that person.
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KJV Rom 10:10 believeth unto righteousness
KJV Rom 10:10 confession is made unto salvation
NIV Rom 10:10 believe and are justified
NIV Rom 19:10 profess your faith and are saved.
As I have shown before, note that the KJV and the NIV say two completely different things. The KJV correctly translate the verse whereas the NIV is a bad translation, abusing Rom 10:10 by attempting to force faith onlyism/Calvinism into the verse, that being, trying to have one justified at the moment of believing. Yet the KJV correctly translating shows tht belief is UNTO righteousness, it leads one toward righteousness but belief by itself does not save.
The NIV's bad translation would have one saved twice......saved once when one believes then saved a second time when one confesses.
But again, the KJV CORRECTLY shows confession by itself does not save but leads one toward salvation.
1) belief and confession are two forms of OBEDIENCE and salvation is impossible from obedience.
2) belief alone cannot save those who will not confess, (John 12:42 cf Mt 10:32-33) just as belief only can never save a person who refuses to repent (Rom 2:4-4) or who refuses to be baptized..refuse to save themselves by obeying in submitting to baptism...refusing baptism is refusing to receive the gospel word (Acts 2:40-41).
In similar fashion Jn 1:12 says "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" Belief by itself does not make one a child of God but belief gives one power/permission to BECOME a child of God, hence believing is UNTO salvation. For without belief repentance is impossible (Heb 6:6) confession and baptism are impossbile. Belief therefore gives one the power to yield to God in repentance, confession and baptism. One MUST use that belief to obey Christ (Heb 5:9) in repenting, confession and baptism to be saved.
Rom 10:9-10 teaches the exact opposite of faith onlyism.
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mailmandan
Well-Known Member
It's servants of sin unto death (descriptive of unbelievers) vs. servants of obedience unto righteousness (descriptive of believers). Faith onlyism (per James) is an empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works (James 2:14-24) which is not to be confused with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) God imputes righteousness apart from works.
If we were saved by acts of obedience/works which "follow" saving faith in Christ, then they most certainly would be works of merit in regards to obtaining salvation. Either the death, burial and resurrection of Christ is the all sufficient means of our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) or else our works help contribute to salvation. You can't have it both ways. I was once is a discussion with a Campbellite on a different Christian forum and he made this erroneous statement below in blue:
"It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit."
Again it's servants of obedience unto righteousness vs. servants of sin unto death. It's one or the other. Not of works, least anyone should boast. (Ephesians 2:9) If we were saved by works, then there would be room for boasting, which entails merit, but of course, there is no room for boasting. Jesus Christ receives 100% credit. We are saved by grace through faith. (Ephesians 2:8) Period.
Romans 4:4 - Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
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Confession is an expression of faith and not a work for salvation.
I often hear people (particular Campbellites) misinterpret Romans 10:9,10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is moot (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to "verbally" confess with their mouth.
Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.
1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving lip service to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.
Hmm... John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13 etc..
False. According to the Campbellite 4 step plan of salvation: 1. Believe 2. Repent 3. Confess 4. Get water baptized then finally saved after all 4 steps are completed in that order. So what happened to water baptism in Romans 10:9,10? Believe and confess are chronologically together unto salvation, yet water baptism follows, so salvation precedes water baptism, even according to your 4 step 'so called' gospel plan.
There is a difference between the obedient act of choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16; Romans 1:16) with the word of faith being in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER (Romans 10:8) and multiple acts of obedience/works which "follow."
CONTINUED..
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
In regards to John 12:42, we do not know the real condition of these "believing" rulers' hearts (mere mental assent belief James 2:19) or (trust and reliance saving belief John 3:16), but we do know that they loved men's praises (v. 43) more than God's. The unwillingness of the chief rulers to confess Christ in this isolated situation may throw doubt on the complete genuineness of their faith or did they simply have a weak moment in this isolated situation in front of the Pharisees? Does this mean they did not confess Christ to others?
The Apostle Peter at one point failed to confess Jesus before men (John 18:17-27), but after the Holy Spirit was given, he was a different man who boldly confessed Him. (Acts 4:8-13) We know that Peter was saved even though he had a weak moment and the same may be true for these chief rulers as well. Does the text specifically say that they were saved or not saved? If the chief rulers truly believed (trusted in Jesus Christ for salvation) even though they had a weak moment, then they are saved, but if their lack of confession was the result of a lack of genuine belief, then they are not saved. (John 3:18)
In regards to Matthew 10:32-33, in context, this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples continued to speak about Him in every city they visited. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like the Pharisees), I will deny him before my Father in heaven.
Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust in Him as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him. (John 3:15,16,18; 10:9; 14:6)
The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Jesus three times (Luke 22:56-62) but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisess and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:21-23, but lack saving faith in Christ) will be denied by Christ before the Father.
In regards to John 1:12, those who receive Him are given the right to become (which means they actually do become) children of God, those who believe in His name. As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - Here it is more the notion of privilege or right. To become (genesqai). Second aorist middle of ginomai, to become what they were not before.
Belief gives power to become a child of God now and not later, after one accomplishes a check list of works.
Repentance actually "precedes" belief/faith unto salvation. (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21) Apart from saving belief/faith in Christ, belief is merely mental assent, repentance is merely moral self-reformation, confession is merely lip service and baptism is merely a bath.
You have it backwards. Repentance (change of mind) precedes (new direction of this change of mind) saving belief/faith in Christ.
Obeying your false gospel (which is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics) is not obeying Christ. You are simply obeying your church.
Romans 10:9,10 teaches the exact opposite of salvation by water baptism and since confession with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together, faith in Christ alone for salvation still stands. Not to be confused with your faith onlyism per James, which is an empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Amen! The gospel that Paul taught is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of our salvation.
The gospel is a message of grace that is to be received through faith. (Acts 15:7-9; Ephesians 3:1-12) The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works (including water baptism) to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:24-28) No supplements needed.
Yet sadly, there are those who still insist on "adding" works to the gospel, which is a "different" gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9) The god of this world has blinded the minds of those who DON'T BELIEVE the gospel. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4)
A genuine Christian will always allow God to "work" in him, because that's what God is doing; causing him to do "will and do His good pleasure"!
The Jews who believe in God (Jn 14:1) but not in Jesus will believe in Christ when they see Him during the millennium, but it will be too late for them to inherit sonship. They will be on the new earth and continue to be a people of God, but not children of God; the children of God will inherit the new heaven.Those in Israel who believe in Jesus are Christians and therefore heaven-bound, but the rest are surely going up the spout for rejecting Jesus..
"A liar denies Jesus is the Christ, and is an antichrist" (1 John 2:22-23)
This concept is not taught but I believe is true. "If they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graff them in again; How much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?; Blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in; And so all Israel shall be saved; As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes; For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."
(Rom 11:23-26, 28, 29).
It must be realized that God would not abandon Israel but rather save them, after dealing with them for 4000 years; and considering the Bible is 90% Jewish.
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Behold
Well-Known Member
God made redemption = as the Cross of Christ.
This is God on the Cross, having become one of us, virgin born under to law, giving His BLOOD and LIFE to save and redeem all of us from the curse of the law, the power of sin, and eternal judgement.
There is our Redemption...There is our REDEEMER.
2 Corinthians 5:19
ITS JESUS.
Jesus is : Salvation.
Accept NO substitute.
Amen, the Son of God on the Cross! God sent Him and He came; and this is a Covenant of Redemption which is between the Father and the Son, and believers in Christ receive of its benefits (salvation).
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