Doctrinal Clarity or vagueness?

[Episkopos]

More made up conjecture. More imaginings.

There were no free samples given in the parable. The parable isn't about salvation. Not in the slightest. It isn't about grace.

They all had oil, some had a lamp full, some had a lamp full and an extra flask. Everybody's lamp went out in the story, because they became drowsy and went to sleep. When they were awakened with a shout, the five who had an extra flask were able to replenish their lamps, while those with no extra oil were told to go to market and buy some.

You think the oil is grace? You think the five wise ones bought grace? --by paying all they have to obtain it?

That's a new gospel, friend.

That's the real gospel you have neither heard nor understood..

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. Heb. 4:16

The cost to approach that throne of grace is all we have and are. We are to BUY eye salve so that we might see. But spiritual things are foolishness to the masses. How they be understood?

 

[Wrangler]

More made up conjecture. More imaginings ... That's a new gospel, friend.

He keeps doubling down, rationalizing how he could be right, rather than humbly admit his own vagueness, ambiguity and mistatements.

It is a stunning and ongoing display of hubris. The likes of which I have never seen before.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Sort of starts looking like religion is similar to diet pills…lose all the weight you want without any excercising at all! Lose weight without ever having to leave your recliner! Eat all the junk food you want and be the envy of your friends! Continue doing all the things you enjoy that made you fat and lose weight while doing it!

Two months later: but I’m the same as I was before taking the pills! I even GAINED 10 pounds more!

Well, you must have done something wrong…did you get up out of your recliner at any point…?!

 

[Mr E]

He keeps doubling down, rationalizing how he could be right, rather than humbly admit his own vagueness, ambiguity and mistatements.

It is a stunning and ongoing display of hubris. The likes of which I have never seen before.

That's my whole point. It's become a little embarrassing for him.

Now I'm told that I've "never heard nor understood the real gospel."


He's arrogant and proudly proclaims ignorance without awareness that it's ignorance, which makes it ignorance of the worst kind. Jesus encountered these kinds of teachers often.

It's not about grace, Jean. The parable is about power. The power to light a lamp. If you don't understand this, you could ask-- but perhaps you are too proud.

 

[Mr E]

That's the real gospel you have neither heard nor understood..

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. Heb. 4:16

The cost to approach that throne of grace is all we have and are. We are to BUY eye salve so that we might see. But spiritual things are foolishness to the masses. How they be understood?

Thanks for your expert opinion. I will file it where I file similar expert opinions.

Let me ask you..... if the oil represents God's grace (free samples, you say) did God run out of grace for five?

 

[Wrangler]

It's not about grace, Jean. The parable is about power. The power to light a lamp.

And it's about the virtue of prudence of the human being. Specifically, be prepared, be prepared to endure.

The parable is not about God but the folly of human's to not prepare, in contrast to those who do.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Let me ask you..... if the oil represents God's grace (free samples, you say) did God run out of grace for five?

I don’t remember what you teach that the oil is.
Maybe you could explain the parable along the lines of like, the field represents this and the soil represents that and the seed is such and such?

You seem to be quite sure of what it DOESNT mean but…do you teach it’s just a vague…“be prepared” but with no clarity on how? Because if He meant by all of those words, “be prepared” He could have saved Himself some time and breath…we all expect painful and unnecessary wordiness from me but we don’t expect it from Jesus…

You seem to be championing one part of the title of the thread? Vagueness?

 

[-Phil]

"God has not given US<. (the born again), the SPIRIT of FEAR">

He has given US, (the born again),= but of power and of love and of a sound mind.."

A sound mind is to have the right understanding of God's Grace.
To exit there, in your BELIEF.
This is a "sound mind". as this is were you find peace, joy, and power to live Holy.

God doesn’t, and couldn’t possibly, give anything to the born again.
Fear is just an emotion. Like hate, anger or disappointment. It’s just how thoughts feel.

 

[Wrangler]

Maybe you could explain the parable along the lines of like, the field represents this and the soil represents that and the seed is such and such?

No way would I do that. It's an invitation to complicate the simple.

You seem to be quite sure of what it DOESNT mean but…do you teach it’s just a vague…“be prepared” but with no clarity on how?

"Be prepared" is not vague in the slightest.

The point of the parable is not about HOW. Seek such clarity elsewhere if the story it not clear enough; the wise virgins brought extra oil, the foolish virgins did not. What is unclear about that?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Lol. What IS the oil? Where do they buy it? How do they pay for it? Surely not with US dollars, right? How much is needed so one doesn’t run out? Why do men say you are given enough oil and yet some of them ran out of it?

You seem to know this man has it all wrong and I will listen if you explain, but the only thing you seem to have explained so far is that this man has it all wrong…

Gird up your loins and explain it to us. We are listening.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

All I’m hearing from these two men is…hasnt God spoken to us too? Has He only spoken to this man?
Okay, so feed His sheep then.

 

[Mr E]

I don’t remember what you teach that the oil is.
Maybe you could explain the parable along the lines of like, the field represents this and the soil represents that and the seed is such and such?

You seem to be quite sure of what it DOESNT mean but…do you teach it’s just a vague…“be prepared” but with no clarity on how? Because if He meant by all of those words, “be prepared” He could have saved Himself some time and breath…we all expect painful and unnecessary wordiness from me but we don’t expect it from Jesus…

You seem to be championing one part of the title of the thread? Vagueness?

If you consider the context of the parable, as well as those he told preceding this particular story it's clearly about one principle offered through several examples. Go back to Matthew 24 to the beginning of the conversation he was having with his disciples.

Now as Jesus was going out of the temple courts and walking away, his disciples came to show him the temple buildings....

That sets the scene in Jerusalem, leaving the temple courts. And he tells them, prophesying-

“Do you see all these things? I tell you the truth, not one stone will be left on another. All will be torn down!”

Imagine being one of his disciples (rather than a disciple of someone like Episkopos here) and hearing that. The disciples ponder what he told them and ask the obvious question--- "When?"

As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, his disciples came to him privately and said, “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

Then the story goes on and he gives example after example of what the end of the age will be like, what the kingdom of heaven is like and what his coming will be like. The parable of the virgins speaks of those who became drowsy and who have fallen asleep before his coming.

To understand what he is talking about, read beginning in Rev 2. It's all about those who have fallen asleep and it references the lamps.

To understand the lamps and the oil that supplies them, read Zechariah 4.

If after reading all that, you still don't understand---? Ask. Just don't ask Jean.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

If you consider the context of the parable, as well as those he told preceding this particular story it's clearly about one principle offered through several examples. Go back to Matthew 24 to the beginning of the conversation he was having with his disciples.

Now as Jesus was going out of the temple courts and walking away, his disciples came to show him the temple buildings....

That sets the scene in Jerusalem, leaving the temple courts. And he tells them, prophesying-

“Do you see all these things? I tell you the truth, not one stone will be left on another. All will be torn down!”

Imagine being one of his disciples (rather than a disciple of someone like Episkopos here) and hearing that. The disciples ponder what he told them and ask the obvious question--- "When?"

As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, his disciples came to him privately and said, “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

Then the story goes on and he gives example after example of what the end of the age will be like, what the kingdom of heaven is like and what his coming will be like. The parable of the virgins speaks of those who became drowsy and who have fallen asleep before his coming.

To understand what he is talking about, read Rev 2. It's all about those who have fallen asleep and it references the lamps.

To understand the lamps and the oil that supplies them, read Zechariah 4.

If after reading all that, you still don't understand---? Ask. Just don't ask Jean.

You have confused me.
What is the oil? What does the oil represent? Start there and I will try to keep up.

 

[Wrangler]

You have confused me.
What is the oil? What does the oil represent? Start there and I will try to keep up.

The oil is oil. It doesn't represent anything but fuel for a lamp.

It's funny you are asking these obtuse questions because a pastor of a church I take my friend to said in a sermon about 6 months ago how there was a time when generations of clergy over-analyzed parables. What is the expression about You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel in Matthew 23:24? A more modern saying is getting lost in the weeds, can't see the forest through the trees.

Sometimes the simple truth is simple. This is one of those times. Just embrace the virtue of prudence, period. Why are you trying to over-complicate it?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The oil is oil. It doesn't represent anything but fuel for a lamp.

It's funny you are asking these obtuse questions because a church I take my friend said in a sermon about 6 months ago how there was a time when generations of clergy over-analyzed parables. What is the expression about You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel in Matthew 23:24? A more modern saying is getting lost in the weeds, can't see the forest through the trees.

Sometimes the simple truth is simple. This is one of those times. Just embrace the virtue of prudence, period. Why are you trying to over-complicate it?

What an amazing teaching on the parable! Thanks.
You should do a video.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Ask. Just don't ask Jean.

Okay. I will ask Diotrophes instead.

 

[Wrangler]

What an amazing teaching on the parable! Thanks.
You should do a video.

Thanks!

It's the same with the woman who lost a coin. The coin is a coin. It does not represent anything but what money represents, a thing of value. I got other insights too! Maybe I will make a video, perhaps a full-length feature film on applications of Aristotle's Law of Identity, A is A.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Oh…I just saw,
in one of the parables - assigned a place with the hypocrites, gnashing of teeth
in another - thrown into outer darkness, gnashing of teeth
virgins- just says I don’t know you. No judgement yet…

Its not clear if they have been humble and feared God? But then how are they called chaste/virgins if not?

In my mind, 5 are righteous, 5 are holy? The righteous don’t go into the wedding? Even as guests?

He says, I don’t know you. He doesn’t say, I NEVER knew you…

Do the three parables tie into filthy, righteous, holy?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Thanks!

It's the same with the woman who lost a coin. The coin is a coin. It does not represent anything but what money represents, a thing of value. I got other insights too! Maybe I will make a video, perhaps a full-length feature film on applications of Aristotle's Law of Identity, A is A.

And here we all are wasting so much time saying, Lord, explain the parable to us…

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Actually, none of the three say, I never knew you.
And only one says, I don’t know you.

Im pretty sure He knew all three at some point.
How will you give a talent to or put in charge or give oil to someone you NEVER knew?