Doctrinal Clarity or vagueness?

[Enoch111]

Another example is the false doctrine of imputing righteousness (God's even) on oneself...

Even the way you have made that statement is false. It is God Himself who IMPUTES righteousness to the sinner who repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. So no one imputes God's righteousness to himself, unless he is plain stupid.

The Jewish religious leaders were trying to establish their own righteousness, which is another matter, and which was delusional. And Paul addresses this also.

But how can the doctrine of imputed righteousness be false when it is solidly embedded in Scripture? Which means that you -- an alleged teacher -- are clueless about a fundamental Gospel truth. If you do not know the meaning of justification by grace through faith (which includes the doctrine of imputed righteousness) you need to go back to square one and study the book of Romans for starters. However, what you should not be doing is ATTACKING Gospel truth. That is the work of the devil.

 

[Nancy]

OK Maybe you didn't get the gist of my musings.

The foolish virgins were sure of their salvation...based on a doctrine that said they were as saved as they could be. Even though they were sinful they thought they had God's righteousness "inputed" to them ....when they didn't understand such things. So they were worthy of condemnation. They missed the scale of their calling. So they were not ready when the time came. I would think that most modern Western believers are in exactly the same boat. How many think that their sins are covered based on proper beliefs?

We are rich and we think we lack nothing. Jesus warns the rich. But we would rather misunderstand Paul to justify a rich smug lifestyle. If we knew the truth...would we not act differently? Would we not prepare differently. Hence the idea of grabbing the wrong equipment for the situation.

Rather than rest on our laurels we ought to seek the Lord for the full measure of grace...where the oil never runs out.

I could also have used the idea of bringing a knife to a gunfight....but that may have sounded a little too violent.

People have abandoned the fear of the Lord. Why? Because they think they are in a position of "perfect love casts out ALL fear". People on this forum have said that they never fear the Lord...because He is such a pal...I suppose. But this is NOT the wise choice. To be accepted by God we need to fear Him. It has to do with having no confidence in the flesh.

"where the oil never runs out."

We need to have our oil topped off on a regular basis I believe. Salvation is a lifelong process. Daily/cross!

Perfect love spoken of in the bible would mean that one is in a constant state of obedience and humility...not sure this makes sense. Since realizing it's just not as simple as saying a few words at an alter, doing new "good things", or, NOT doing certain things that we once did, true fear of God came back to me like a runaway train!
I've never been comfortable in addressing God in the attitude of just a "pal", or buddy although, sure do know some who have no issues with that, and that is fine.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Hi Epi,
I liken this simply to a Christian being blessed to have His word to clear the way for us. He has given us all things we need to know about what will take place in a Christians life so, if you do not take all of His warnings/promises of a really hard life here on Earth then, nobody can say they were not warned. So we can make wise decisions if we know His character and will, through His word.

That "perfect love" that casts out all fear seems elusive sometimes for sure. Some years back, I can remember that I was so sure of my salvation that I had zero fear as, I did not believe I would be punished. As time goes on and the rapidly changing world speeds up, so as to feel useless and not good enough for Him to use...the fear comes back. A huge work in progress but then, He who began a good work..."

JMO.

Oh no. Something’s not good there, sis. “Feel useless and not good enough for Him to use and so the fear comes back?”
Until you become useless, He CANT flow through you to others powerfully.
Something tangled there…
Most gladly therefore will I glory in my weakness so that the power of Christ will rest upon me.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

@Nancy
Remember the zoom, epi would always say if you stay humble/meek, you Keep yourself from harm?If you don’t judge, don’t place yourself above others, care about others as much as you care about yourself, take the lowest seat, etc.
Thats learning what righteousness is and practicing righteousness and growing in trust and running your race of trust. That IS keeping a healthy fear by taking His words to heart, seeing where you fall short sometimes, praying for what you see you lack, taking seriously any instance where you find yourself not trusting but fretting instead and turning again to trust, which is repenting.

 

[Episkopos]

Forgive me, but I'm enjoying this.

You've created your own doctrine of silliness that you are simply trying to prop up. It's not some 'musing' of mine to suggest that Jesus intentionally left his teaching vague-- at least on the surface. He quotes Isaiah by way of explanation... Why do you speak in parables....?

"---so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they turn again, and be forgiven"


Listen-- 10 Dads have to take their daughters to the airport so they can get back to College. The airport is 60 miles away and you have to be there an hour ahead of the flight departure time or they won't let you board. 5 Fathers leave at noon, knowing the flight is at 1pm and they figure that the quarter tank of gas they have in the car should get them there and they can fill up after they drop their daughter off.

The other five fill up their tanks the night before and leave the house at 10:30 am in case they hit traffic.


It's a good story about being prepared, or thinking ahead, or being prudent and diligent. But it isn't a good example about the need for clarity or 'the fear of the Lord versus the assurance of salvation.' Neither is it a good example to illustrate that it is- Better to make wise decisions based on clear choices. That's silly, which was my only point and the reason I commented as such.

Twisted knickers aside-- If you want to set yourself up as some kind of teacher-- choose better examples. That shouldn't offend you to hear someone suggest. It will make you better.

Your story is missing the main point. That point is the car needs something called "human unobtainium" to gas it up. And nobody knows where to get it. You're supposed to just believe that somehow you can get the car there.

In your story you make repentance and being crucified to be like a smug easy peasy experience. As if this is something you already know about and can handle. Are you rich and in need of nothing? You are simply demonstrating your lack of understanding of the scale of the problem in the church today.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

"human unobtainium"

Oh my haha you have undone me!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Epi, everywhere you go becomes an Acts 19 riot.
Someone becomes alarmed and says, there is great danger that this trade of making idols that we received from our fathers will fall into disrepute! Then shouting and confusion ensues as they all shout: long live(place name of idol here.)
I can sort of chuckle about it but not really because I see the shadows of it growing on earth.

 

[Nancy]

Oh my haha you have undone me!

Just looked it up!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Just looked it up!

Lol. What did you find? A substance that’s the most costly thing a man can buy? Lol
Sell everything you own to purchase unobtainium?
okay, I’ll get sober now. Sorry. He just throws a comedy bomb out there occasionally that I don’t expect from him and it causes an explosive laughter in me.

 

[Nancy]

Epi, everywhere you go becomes an Acts 19 riot.
Someone becomes alarmed and says, there is great danger that this trade of making idols that we received from our fathers will fall into disrepute! Then shouting and confusion ensues as they all shout: long live(place name of idol here.)
I can sort of chuckle about it but not really because I see the shadows of it growing on earth.

I can see it too Stunned.
We hold tightly to our breast and stomp our feet cause there is simply NO other interpretation what we've already "learned". And yeah, the church's will never change their stance, unless they take a vote and split, and that must be a very heartbreaking ordeal.
I've never felt quite comfortable in my assurance and still am not, feels like your damned if you do and damned if you don't sometimes...UNTIL we actually "see".
Hmm, whom else can we burn at stake today? Only a few things I'll dig my heels in for...

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I can see it too Stunned.
We hold tightly to our breast and stomp our feet cause there is simply NO other interpretation what we've already "learned". And yeah, the church's will never change their stance, unless they take a vote and split, and that must be a very heartbreaking ordeal.

It’s all about control. The buying and selling of men as chattel.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I've never felt quite comfortable in my assurance and still am not, feels like your damned if you do and damned if you don't sometimes

It breaks my heart when I hear you like this. I’ve been there. Just trust Him, sis. His plan is to prosper you and He is infinitely more merciful and kind and patient and forgiving than men portray Him to be. Don’t worry but just trust Him that He can do everything He promises concerning you.

I know you have to become more alarmed as you see more, until finally, you just…stop worrying about what you can’t change in you and get out of His way by absolute trust.

 

[Lizbeth]

Your story is missing the main point. That point is the car needs something called "human unobtainium" to gas it up. And nobody knows where to get it. You're supposed to just believe that somehow you can get the car there.

In your story you make repentance and being crucified to be like a smug easy peasy experience. As if this is something you already know about and can handle. Are you rich and in need of nothing? You are simply demonstrating your lack of understanding of the scale of the problem in the church today.

yes, agree there is a lot of smugness in Christendom for sure, and of course that is a wrong attitude. But smugness is on the smug. It isn't in any way the fault of the gospel. If there are those who would trample the blood of Christ underfoot, it doesn't mean it is the fault of the gospel. The problem is people aren't being taught (or they are rejecting) the strong meat of the word where we start to notice and hear the things in the bible that are not easy peasy but are harder to digest and come with a price. Strong meat belongs to the mature. Todays' church in the west has settled on its lees. I pray the Lord will start to shake it awake if that's what it is going to take. Think He has already started really.

This is always the problem that God has in dealing with us humans.....He gives us everything, all the right ingredients, but then we in our imperfection or immaturity don't understand or mishandle or abuse it. There is never fault with what He gives, the fault is always with us.

 

[Lizbeth]

If God had not imputed righteousness to us as new believers, then us children would not have been holy. It's what Jesus died for, to atone for our sins, making us holy, sanctifying us by His spirit within. This is the gospel.

 

[Behold]

I've never felt quite comfortable in my assurance

Reader,

Jesus is your "assurance".
He is your salvation.
Can He fail you?
Can God fail you?
Never.
So Then, rest assured that your salvation will last you for as long as God lives ...... = BECAUSE your Salvation is JESUS HIMSELF.

"but i dont feel".

"but, see, what i FEEL is".

Listen..
Salvation is not a feeling.
Its a Bloody Savior, its a HE....its the CROSS OF CHRIST.....= Your ETERNAL Salvation is JESUS, and He has accomplished it for you, before you were born.
"it is FINISHED" He said to you, from the Cross.
He's telling you the truth about your Salvation.


So, reader.......You have to stop trying to think your way out of God's Grace.
Just REST in the fact that Christ died for you, for all your sin..... and God accepted you ONLY because of HIM and that is why you will always be saved.
Always.

 

[-Phil]

Fear’s an emotion.
It’s how certain thoughts feel.
Fear isn’t actually of any thing.

 

[-Phil]

Fear derives of misunderstanding infinite cannot know finite
It’s absolutely innocent.
God’s not an old man in the clouds.
(Infinite is not conceptual).

 

[-Phil]

If God had not imputed righteousness to us as new believers, then us children would not have been holy. It's what Jesus died for, to atone for our sins, making us holy, sanctifying us by His spirit within. This is the gospel.

The point isn’t that separated selves become whole, the point is there are no separate selves, and therein you’re already whole, complete, and unthinkably, unbelievably, perfect. The point is dispelling ignorance, not becoming something or someone other than yourself, or getting anything. Even ‘self acceptance’ is already missing the Truth. Jesus didn’t say love your neighbor as your neighbor

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The problem is people aren't being taught

Oh they are being taught all right. But what they are taught harms and holds them back. Satan certainly doesn’t want men walking in power. And he’s downright panicked they might walk in unity in that power! One man here or there? Bad for him. But MANY? Together? Terrifying.

If God had not imputed righteousness to us as new believers, then us children would not have been holy. It's what Jesus died for, to atone for our sins, making us holy, sanctifying us by His spirit within. This is the gospel.

God says a man has done the right thing in His eyes when he believes and trusts Him who justifies sinners and believes and trusts His Son, who said, didn’t I tell you if you believe you will never die? We start there. we don’t undo that, ever. We build, but not by undoing that. Line upon line, precept upon precept. We learn from there what else God says is right to do in His eyes, we train in and practice and see where we lack and ask for what we see we lack. Gods words are for training in righteousness. And we learn fear of the Lord.
To build, we do not tear down righteousness. We build upon it as Epi has taught So well.

 

[Nancy]

Oh no. Something’s not good there, sis. “Feel useless and not good enough for Him to use and so the fear comes back?”
Until you become useless, He CANT flow through you to others powerfully.
Something tangled there…
Most gladly therefore will I glory in my weakness so that the power of Christ will rest upon me.

Well, I am certainly empty of any really meaningful usage. Yes, I can go to the Community Center and serve at soup kitchens or pantry's but, that is not a selfless thing as there was a need to get out of the house and around people after not being able to work any longer, although He DID give me a love for these folks. Much of my work there is behind the scenes (except for Thursdays)
Don't ya think that as we "know them by their fruit" we can also know ourselves in that vein, by our own fruits, or lack of.
It's funny how we can just start to grasp a reality only for it to elude us. My brain feels like there is a roadblock, especially when I am getting close to something that "seems" to be getting clearer, like holiness vs righteousness only to elude me part way there! Frustrating, lol.
Not attempting to limit God in any way but, the proof is in the pudding really, we see what what we are and we know if we have motives. My motives here are not hidden and I expect no "rewards" (another subject out of my understanding, thought Jesus was our reward!)
It seems some Christians never stop! Always stepping up to the plate when it comes to "busy work"...neither do I see that as serving God unless it is going to benefit or edify others but, to do, do, do these things is not true works of God but works of men. And, why do church's ALWAYS center around so much food and eating! Yikes...breaking bread together is great but all these silly tea parties, ladies luncheons (DEF don't fit in these things) Although many of the older ladies love them. Not a thing wrong with this kind of fellowship, just wish the church's I've attended were more welcoming to some that do not fit in so they never stay with this fellowship long. I'm really mad at the church and these gazillions of differing teachings. It's no wonder most unbelievers just throw their hands in the air and walk away
Despite saying all that, He still rules, He is still merciful, forgiving and blesses all, saved and unsaved alike. Sorry if this is all over the place (it is).
Still waiting for this power, until then I generally keep my mouth shut unless asked something about The Lord directly.
JMOI