Doctrinal Clarity or vagueness?

[ScottA]

Hmmm. Sounds like too much is expected of teachers and preachers, if that is the case.

Not only are teachers and preachers imperfect human beings, long ago online I rejected the stated expectation that all my posts should be comprehensive in scope. Likewise, teachers and preachers only have a short amount of time. Of course they are not including all that is written on a given topic.

While focusing on one thing, they may touch tangentially on another.

One annoying observation I've been about such discussions is the anxiety that not everything is defined in said discussion. It makes communication impossible if we are not already speaking the same language with the words already defined prior to the discussion's beginning. For instance, Jesus said, 'take the plank out of your own eye before taking the speck out of your brother's eye.' It is memorable precisely because of its brevity.

If he included the definition of every word and all that was written about every word, it would be a forgettable mess.

When I was in school, students had the burden to figure it out for themselves - and ask questions to guide them in their self discovery. Now, the teacher is blamed for not closing the knowledge gap of all the students - a completely unrealistic expectation.

Having said that, I don't think this is the case. That is, I don't think the thread is about that. In life, we have to make choices despite not having all the information. (It is a coping skill that is being simultaneously undermined in another thread.) In fact, making decisions in the face of ambiguity is a hot topic in business, military and politics as witnessed in the recent global pandemic.

Granted, teachers and preachers cannot always cover everything they may touch upon--but God has done better, and many speak as if their partial understanding of what is written is all that God has inspired to be written...even contradicting other relative passages while making claims and assertions.

But here you do the same thing you accuse @Episkopos of doing...not accepting the burden of figuring out what he may have left out, and not rather asking questions, but making accusation.

Maybe we should start over.

 

[Mr E]

The point of this thread is not to show exact examples, but to agree on the importance of clarity.

If I was to use any example specifically the thread would spin off topic in a flash.

For an example (which I did not want to bring up)

The vague concept of what is saving faith.

Another example is the false doctrine of imputing righteousness (God's even) on oneself because of certain (magical?) beliefs? How do beliefs justify people?

Hint: Human beliefs and opinions do not equate to biblical faith.

The point of this thread about the need for clarity is to not use exact examples that highlight the need for clarity. Got it.

Instead, let’s use vague examples that have nothing whatsoever to do with the need for clarity while condemning the dangers of vagueness.

 

[ScottA]

If you are going to quote me directly, please address my point directly. I agree with you in that it’s worthy of discussion and also that many people grasp only partial truth and distribute even less than they themselves grasp.

The point I was making was simply that his point (and the example he used to make it) was extremely vague and in using a vague point that had nothing to do with the parable he pointed to - that in no way bolstered his plea— which was itself the need for clarity.

Then he tried to gloss over my observation by painting it with an even bigger generality. “The whole of scripture” without pointing to any scripture at all that could provide the clarity he demands of others.

If vague, then questions are in order, not accusation.

 

[Wrangler]

many speak as it their partial understanding of what is written is all that God has inspired to be written.

Just what else do you expect imperfect people to do?

 

[Episkopos]

A 2nd bite at this apple.

This is a fellowship lounge, not a doctrinal study or debate lounge. This means relationships.

In the other thread, I mentioned my devout Catholic grandmothers. (Which you also ignored) While devout, theologians they weren't. These 2 women modeled the Christian life for over 150 combined years. They didn't have anything like 'doctrinal clarity.'

But neither were they trying to explain what salvation is to people. They probably were not interested in converting others or writing to forums such as these. There are many who live simple righteous lives. That's not what we are dealing with when we are trying to interpret the bible to make a point.

When I read your threads, they read to me as an impeachment against such simple Christians, living as the word of God commands. What seems missing from your threads is heart knowledge. When I read your threads, I feel you have a god complex and are letting me (us) know I am not measuring up to your made up expectations. I feel such a lack of humility in the premise of your threads today, it's really shocking.

Not at all. I stand with the righteous, whether Christian or not. We will all be judged by what we have done with what we have been given.

In speaking to the higher walk...the thing that gets in the way is VAGUE doctrine that seeks to justify people without experiencing the cross or resurrection life. I see the Reformation doctrines as the culprit with Luther's misunderstanding of Paul.

One can be wrong while eloquently defending the error. Another can be doctrinally correct but wholly inadequate in terms of elocution. Let me end by giving you this to ponder.

That's true, But we have the bible to be eloquent with. Then, it becomes a matter of actually understanding what is written. So then it comes to a proper understanding...which in all seriousness, I find to be almost totally lacking among "reformed" believers. Everything is about preserving the flesh for these. And to boot, the ego gets riled up so that you can tell who has never experienced the cross. Just watch the carnal religious reactions.

 

[ScottA]

Just what else do you expect imperfect people to do?

Point well taken!

The line that should not be crossed is that of making false claims.

 

[Wrangler]

But here you do the same thing you accuse @Episkopos of doing...not accepting the burden of figuring out what he may have left out, and not rather asking questions, but making accusation

Not even a little bit. The presumption that you are making is that Episkopos is my teacher or preacher and I have some burden to respond what he says AS THOUGH he were.

 

[Episkopos]

The point of this thread about the need for clarity is to not use exact examples that highlight the need for clarity. Got it.

Instead, let’s use vague examples that have nothing whatsoever to do with the need for clarity while condemning the dangers of vagueness.

So much for conceptual thought. I think we need to sometimes look from a more general outlook as an overview of how we reason things out.

Non thinkers say things like..."that's not in the bible". Because of a lack of understanding people will miss verse references that are simply worded in a way they don't recognize (or have memorized). How many times have I stated something biblical using a different wording and gotten a negative response? There is a real difficulty in understanding God's ways.

Cramming for an exam by memorization is not the same as understanding. The same thing goes for bible study.

And then there is the issue of actually walking IN Christ. Arm chair reasoning will never grasp the experience of resurrection life and power. I tend to ignore those who press their ignorance like it was a virtue.

 

[Wrangler]

In the other thread, I mentioned my devout Catholic grandmothers. (Which you also ignored) While devout, theologians they weren't. These 2 women modeled the Christian life for over 150 combined years. They didn't have anything like 'doctrinal clarity.'

But neither were they trying to explain what salvation is to people.

How do you know this about my grandmothers?

I read Decision Points by George W Bush. In it, he often repeated something his father President Bush 41 was fond of saying. Although I now know it did not originate with him, it remains a brilliant point. Preach the Gospel every day. If you have to, use words.

 

[Behold]

, the fear of the Lord is a better choice than to rely on an assurance that we are saved.

Reader,

Fear of the Lord does not mean you are to get under your bed because you are afraid.
Fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom.........this is the "fear", and this describes an utter awareness of the majesty and reality of God.

"working out your salvation in fear and trembling" is misunderstood by people who dont understand that God is the Good and Gentile Father of the born again.
We are not to fear our heavenly Father. In fact, its offensive to God if you are afraid of Him, as when you are like that, you can't go to Him with boldness and confidence that He will help you.
He tells us to enter his Grace, His Presence with BOLDNESS........not fear and trembling..

The relationship that a child has with their mother, is the Idea of how we are to bond with Holy God.
Like that.
Just like that... = complete trust, reliance, and the understanding that we always have God's unconditional love that is never based on our behavior or our performance.
Never.

So, the "fear and trembling", is understood as "awe and wonder".
Work out your salvation with awe and wonder.
To work it out, is to learn how to exist within what you already possess.
"fear of the Lord".... this wisdom......is to recognize the awesomeness of God, the majesty of God, the wonder of Almighty God.........to be utterly AMAZED....... and stay like that regarding your perspective of the Heavenly Father.

 

[Episkopos]

How do you know this about my grandmothers?

I read Decision Points by George W Bush. In it, he often repeated something his father President Bush 41 was fond of saying. Although I now know it did not originate with him, it remains a brilliant point. Preach the Gospel every day. If you have to, use words.

You did say they were Catholics. I also had Catholic grandmothers. Quiet service...is not the gospel. Do you know what the high calling is? Do you assume you know more than your grandmothers when it comes to the deeper walk IN Christ? Could God be calling you to an equally quiet service?

 

[Mr E]

Granted, teachers and preachers cannot always cover everything they may touch upon--but God has done better, and many speak as if their partial understanding of what is written is all that God has inspired to be written...even contradicting other relative passages while making claims and assertions.

But here you do the same thing you accuse @Episkopos of doing...not accepting the burden of figuring out what he may have left out, and not rather asking questions, but making accusation.

Maybe we should start over.

The scribes and Pharisees were very clear on doctrine. They had all the experts in their side defining belief and practice with joy and tittle clarity.

I find the parables of Jesus so much more compelling than the law of Moses.

Jesus specialized in vague. On purpose.

 

[Episkopos]

The scribes and Pharisees were very clear on doctrine. They had all the experts in their side defining belief and practice with joy and tittle clarity.

I find the parables of Jesus so much more compelling than the law of Moses.

Jesus specialized in vague.

Not if one understands His words. Jesus was speaking on more than one level...righteousness and holiness...just like the OT writings. Only those who understand both levels have any understanding. People tend to jumble up the levels so that neither righteousness nor holiness is being upheld.

What's amazing to me is that all believers think they know all there is to know. Go to any other kind of site...and see how information and understanding is exchanged...without ruffling any egos. Why are modern believers championing MORE ego than the world at large? Why did Jesus condemn the religious Pharisees more than the worldly sinners? Just compare the groups...

If I did a musician's site...for example...there would be nobody attacking me for sharing what I know. So much for vain religion.

 

[ScottA]

Not even a little bit. The presumption that you are making is that Episkopos is my teacher or preacher and I have some burden to respond what he says AS THOUGH he were.

That would all depend on whether or not you had something to learn from him. But we'll never know with this kind of response.

 

[Mr E]

Not if one understands His words. Jesus was speaking on more than one level...righteousness and holiness...just like the OT writings. Only those who understand both levels have any understanding. People tend to jumble up the levels so that neither righteousness nor holiness is being upheld.

What's amazing to me is that all believers think they know all there is to know. Go to any other kind of site...and see how information and understanding is exchanged...without ruffling any egos. Why are modern believers championing MORE ego than the world at large? Why did Jesus condemn the religious Pharisees more than the worldly sinners? Just compare the groups...

If I did a musician's site...for example...there would be nobody attacking me for sharing what I know. So much for vain religion.

Forgive me, but I'm enjoying this.

You've created your own doctrine of silliness that you are simply trying to prop up. It's not some 'musing' of mine to suggest that Jesus intentionally left his teaching vague-- at least on the surface. He quotes Isaiah by way of explanation... Why do you speak in parables....?

"---so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they turn again, and be forgiven"


Listen-- 10 Dads have to take their daughters to the airport so they can get back to College. The airport is 60 miles away and you have to be there an hour ahead of the flight departure time or they won't let you board. 5 Fathers leave at noon, knowing the flight is at 1pm and they figure that the quarter tank of gas they have in the car should get them there and they can fill up after they drop their daughter off.

The other five fill up their tanks the night before and leave the house at 10:30 am in case they hit traffic.


It's a good story about being prepared, or thinking ahead, or being prudent and diligent. But it isn't a good example about the need for clarity or 'the fear of the Lord versus the assurance of salvation.' Neither is it a good example to illustrate that it is- Better to make wise decisions based on clear choices. That's silly, which was my only point and the reason I commented as such.

Twisted knickers aside-- If you want to set yourself up as some kind of teacher-- choose better examples. That shouldn't offend you to hear someone suggest. It will make you better.

 

[Wrangler]

You did say they were Catholics. I also had Catholic grandmothers. Quiet service...is not the gospel. Do you know what the high calling is? Do you assume you know more than your grandmothers when it comes to the deeper walk IN Christ? Could God be calling you to an equally quiet service?

So, How do you know this about my grandmothers?

 

[Wrangler]

That would all depend on whether or not you had something to learn from him. But we'll never know with this kind of response.

Possibly learning from someone is now the standard of being a teacher? Good grief, back to the word games.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying[j]his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for himand at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 25 “Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

Great thread. It caused me to read the whole series of parables and note something. What I noted was the “thens and the “fors.” I have bolded one of them above. So you see that the parables are related and, ideally, not to stand alone or to be read apart in order to get the clearest understanding.
Otherwise, why did Jesus begin a stand-alone parable with the word “then.” When is “then?” It obviously ties back to what He said prior to the word “then.”

you have to go back at least to 24:40 to get all of the different ways He was trying to explain one thing.
The women grinding
The servant who thinks it’s going to be a long time, no biggie
The ten virgins, no biggie, long time off

Its obvious there was no fear, an attitude of “we be the seed of Abraham” repeated again with “we be the seed of the Holy Spirit.” No sense of - I’m going to be prepared and waiting and watching. I don’t have to be, I’m entitled. I’m part of the “in crowd.”

Thank you so much for your work to pass this to us. It’s how its supposed to work that what God gives to one is to be shared with all to build up and prepare all and then another shares what they received, then another, so all things are shared and had in common by the one body.

 

[Nancy]

I had this thought that I thought to share with the forum.

Imagine you had the choice between 3 things...a parachute, scuba gear, and a jug of water. And you made this choice without being told clearly what the situation you were in as to what you might need.


So the one chooses a parachute, and ends up dying in the desert for lack of water.

Another grabs the scuba gear and ends up falling to his death from a burning plane.

And another grabs the water jug and dies drowning in the sea.

Had there been more clarity, each of these could have been informed to make a wiser choice. And we see this with the wise and foolish virgins.

There are variables so that a person might indeed choose correctly (at least for that time) and think that there is no danger in the vagueness. But sooner or later that vagueness that caused so many to fail, may one day also cause a disastrous situation.

Better to make wise decisions based on clear choices.
If we are walking in our own strength, the fear of the Lord is a better choice than to rely on an assurance that we are saved. The"perfect love that casts out all fear" is out of reach for the flesh. That is reserved for those who walk in the power of the Spirit.

Hi Epi,
I liken this simply to a Christian being blessed to have His word to clear the way for us. He has given us all things we need to know about what will take place in a Christians life so, if you do not take all of His warnings/promises of a really hard life here on Earth then, nobody can say they were not warned. So we can make wise decisions if we know His character and will, through His word.

That "perfect love" that casts out all fear seems elusive sometimes for sure. Some years back, I can remember that I was so sure of my salvation that I had zero fear as, I did not believe I would be punished. As time goes on and the rapidly changing world speeds up, so as to feel useless and not good enough for Him to use...the fear comes back. A huge work in progress but then, He who began a good work..."

JMO.

 

[ScottA]

Possibly learning from someone is now the standard of being a teacher? Good grief, back to the word games.

No, but word games is your game.

I have only clarified what is true when the words can be misunderstood or have multiple meanings...which you obviously don't like hearing.