Doctrinal Clarity or vagueness?

[Mr E]

Maybe they were just...lazy?
BTW Love lot's of old John L's songs yet this one always gets me just at the title as, I simply cannot Imagine No Heaven...And to any who want to remind me that John Lennon was not a Christian and had some young, ignorant ang arrogant tings to say at the height of their career...he was still very talented and...he wasn't a preacher, he was a singer songwriter period...

and the words of the prophets are written on the subway walls.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I never mentioned "unbelievers", I assumed we were talking "Christians".
But anyhow....since you mention unbelievers.... looking at this thread, unbelievers would run away thinking they would have to be super intelligent brain surgeons to understand scripture and the many different opinions about it.

Okay. You win.

 

[Nancy]

I never mentioned "unbelievers", I assumed we were talking "Christians".
But anyhow....since you mention unbelievers.... looking at this thread, unbelievers would run away thinking they would have to be super intelligent brain surgeons to understand scripture and the many different opinions about it.

Oh Triumph, lol...this is something I would have just passed on and looked for something a bit less involved when first on here but, I did come in already as a Christian.
For me? It is simply curiosity and boredom that peak my interest in all things bible and God. Also want to grow in Him way more and He is my only interest anymore, less I go back to the world, GOD FORBID!! Cannot help I don't have a very active life any more What better way to bounce these never taught on issues off one another?
Love you brother!

 

[Nancy]

Yes! Yes!
You are either learning righteousness, what it is, (which is loving your neighbor, which is law) practicing it, eventually seeing what you still lack and asking out of your poverty for what you lack,

Or you are in a middle place of more grace/power to overcome your flesh, prayer answered that you asked for when you saw your lack, weaned from the flesh, no longer murdering in your heart every day, not controlled mercilessly by your flesh as before, actually loving your neighbor not just outwardly but inwardly too and even when he is being quite nasty, loving even when he is unlovable, wanting so badly for him to have what you’ve been given so he doesn’t have to live in that miserable tyranny of his flesh because you know how miserable it was. So you even begin to pray for those who treat you despitefully and now, you truly mean it.
How did you receive this righteousness in your inner man that you were hungering for? You asked, in trust, and you received. Is that not the righteousness that is by trust/faith? It’s not some vague imputed thing. It’s a REAL thing.

And Then,
Remember when the man asked, what must I do to obtain eternal life. Jesus said, follow the commandments. He asked, which ones? Jesus answered with the tablet that concerns the commandments about loving your neighbor and treating him as you would want to be treated. The man says, I’ve done these. What do I still lack?
Jesus says, well, if you want to be PERFECT, sell all you have and follow Me. That’s the second tablet, which is holiness. It costs you everything you have, your whole life. The man walked away sad because he was not ready to sell all he had.

But what was the answer to what must I do to obtain eternal life? Wasn’t it the first tablet? Did He say it took holiness to be accepted into eternal life? No. So why do the doctrines teach us to claim things we have not yet obtained - imputed righteousness, holiness?

Is there a covering for sin and repentance and forgiveness before your prayer for true righteousness in the inside of your cup is answered and while you are still in that awful struggle With your flesh? Do we have an advocate if we sin? Yes and yes. And even afterwards, if we stumble. We ALWAYS have an Advocate who will never leave us through ALL of it if we stay humble and fear God and refuse to judge and take the lowest seat. Those are how we remain in safety, not by some vague and imputed thing. But by the covering of the Blood as we learn and grow and trust and hope and ask.

So why are we taught doctrines that teach us to claim things we aren’t and don’t yet have? Why on earth is that necessary…? He is so merciful and forgiving and patient. Isn’t that enough?

I gotta say, the church has much to answer for, for not being diligent in Spiritual matters and doctrines. Pretty sure the church, as a whole dropped the ball soon as Jesus ascended!
Christians demanding things of God, the blind leading the blinder. Oh Lord, forgive us our foolish ways!!!
The "church" is out of control, except for a remnant it seems and I do believe that is biblical as, very few will take this narrow road.

Imputation of righteousness, is that the same as being "accounted as"? As in Abraham?

How many are walking around right now thinking they are humble? I know I thought that for a long time...HA! God shined that extraordinarily bright light and showed me different. It's not as simple as we might think it is.

Sorry I didn't get to all of your post Jen, getting google eyed~

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Imputation of righteousness, is that the same as being "accounted as"? As in Abraham?

No…I don’t see that anywhere.
Abraham believed God, trusted God that He was truthful, that He could do what He said, and God counted him to have done the right thing to have believed God.
Apparently, God thinks it’s doing the right thing to believe Him.
God approves of men believing Him.

We see it again With the two sinners praying. The one who was humble and honest about himself and prayed to God for forgiveness because He believed God forgives sinners, went away justified, which is to say, God counted him to have done the right/righteous thing to have believed God.

Both of these examples, God said the men had done the right/righteous thing to have believed God. Was it really Jesus somehow believing God rather than the men? Did the men really NOT believe and trust in God and so God had to invent something whereby He could say the men had done what was right in Gods eyes because God doesn’t REALLY think it’s the right thing to do to trust Him?

Where do you find that God took anyone else’s doing the right thing and said it was a different man who did the right thing rather than the man who did the right thing?

Make no mistake about it - a righteous man DOES what is right. (I mean, you know, if you want to bring the Bible into it.)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

They don't. They weren't foolish for a lack of information. They just dismissed what was right in front of their faces.

Right. All received the oil/Holy Spirit, as Enoch said.
And…5 ran out by…dismissing what was right in front of their faces…?
So much for the Holy Spirit teaching you and giving you wisdom. Did the Holy Spirit have a massive fail with 5 of them?

Unless you say Enoch is wrong as well, in which case I’m going to place a bet that you STILL wont have anything to say about what the oil represents.

 

[Triumph1300]

What better way to bounce these never taught on issues off one another?

I see your point.
But I was just passing on how non christians view the big disagreements and the way it is expressed among them.

Hope you are doing well, Nancy.

 

[Lizbeth]

Imputation of righteousness, is that the same as being "accounted as"? As in Abraham?

Amen, yes it is.

Gal 3:6

Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.



Rom 3:24-27

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.





Rom 3:21-22

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:





Rom 4:1-27

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.



Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:

He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Rom 5:1-2

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.




Rom 5:6-10

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.



Rom 5:15-19

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.



THIS IS THE GOSPEL. Recommend pulling up a chair and reading those scriptures prayerfully from your own bibles. But it doesn’t nullify all the warnings and admonitions. We are not to use this grace and liberty as a license to sin…..and how can we who are dead to sin live in it any longer…..God is not mocked….if we keep on wilfully sinning there is no more sacrifice for sins…. Etc, etc. It may appear paradoxical such that if we try to reason it out with our logical carnal mind we will miss the mark. We need to just believe and receive everything written and don’t even try to resolve the apparent contradictions ourselves. Understanding or partial understanding needs to come by the Holy Spirit and eventually will.

It's from this foundation of having been made the righteousness of Christ that we even seek to run the race lawfully (He being the cornerstone of the foundation)….His Spirit within, His conscience, His fear, as well as gratitude and love for the Lord for so great a salvation which makes us want to please Him.

 

[Lizbeth]

The point is dispelling ignorance,

I don't understand all of your post....but I suspect you're right with this. We think of it as a kind of linear journey but that is just an illustration....in the end I suspect it boils down to receiving revelation of what Jesus has already fully accomplished. The entrance of the word giveth light.

 

[-Phil]

I don't understand all of your post....but I suspect you're right with this. We think of it as a kind of linear journey but that is just an illustration....in the end I suspect it boils down to receiving revelation of what Jesus has already fully accomplished. The entrance of the word giveth light.

Do you know what or who you are?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

22 This righteousness/justification is given through faith in Jesus Christ (same chapter)

By the power/grace of God, yes, through trust/faith

Not by the power of God without or apart from that trust but THROUGH that trust

If you take away the through trust part, you only have this: but without trust it is impossible to please God.
If you take away the through trust part you are left with: justified freely by His power/grace and without the trust that pleases Him and through which a man is justified.

Without the part of the trust, you will just wander and then die in the wilderness. Just ask Israel.

So when you quote and underline this part: justified freely by His power/grace, you still need to firmly understand the other part you quoted: through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ (which is through trust).

 

[Episkopos]

Amen, yes it is.

Gal 3:6

Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

God considered Abraham to be righteous. This doesn't mean that God saw Abraham to be as righteous as He is. There is a human scale to righteousness. Just like there is a human scale to strength (God is far stronger).

Without Jesus we can do nothing. Nothing? Nothing on a human scale? Or nothing on an eternal scale?

Without this distinction between the human level and the holy level we get nothing but confusion, foolishness and heresies.

Rom 3:24-27

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

The redemption that is found IN Christ. The righteousness of God is according to mercy. This should NOT be confused with a covering righteousness among the saints and even less so (not at all) in thinking that somehow God's righteousness can be attributed (imputed) to us. Only God has God's righteousness. That's why it's called "God's" righteousness.

Rom 3:21-22

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

By faith OF Jesus Christ. That is a gift of faith into the higher walk. This is about the universality of the gift....not that everyone who believes things about Jesus becomes as righteous as God.

Rom 4:1-27

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

God does not pretend. People pretend. Calling something into existence makes for reality...not pretend.

A pretend righteousness leaves one naked. Check out the credentials of the the church in Laodicea...they thought they were rich. How is that so? How is it that the church of the last days thinks they are rich when they are actually naked and poor?

This is based on fables and the doctrine of pretend righteousness.


Abraham's faith was counted for righteousness. It doesn't say...Abraham's faith was counted as being God's righteousness. No greater deception is possible than to attribute one's own estimation of righteousness to be on a par with God's. Can you say...empty clouds that have no rain?

Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:

He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Abraham's HUMAN faith justified him...just like Phinehas' HUMAN works justified him.
Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him.

Who was fully convinced of God's power? God or Abraham?

But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

We are deemed righteous by faith (humanly so) for believing that Jesus is Lord. But that doesn't make us as righteous as God.

Rom 5:1-2

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

The key word here is access. The full measure of grace is available to walk as Jesus walked. Why don't more seek after it? The doctrine of pretend is a whole lot easier...and it is for nothing...no cost.

Rom 5:6-10

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

This is about the justification of life...living in resurrection life. We are saved from sin by abiding in HIS LIFE.

Rom 5:15-19

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The justification of LIFE. Again, this is about walking in resurrection life above sin. That walk is available to ALL through the faith OF Christ...also a gift.

THIS IS THE GOSPEL. Recommend pulling up a chair and reading those scriptures prayerfully from your own bibles. But it doesn’t nullify all the warnings and admonitions. We are not to use this grace and liberty as a license to sin…..and how can we who are dead to sin live in it any longer…..God is not mocked….if we keep on wilfully sinning there is no more sacrifice for sins…. Etc, etc. It may appear paradoxical such that if we try to reason it out with our logical carnal mind we will miss the mark. We need to just believe and receive everything written and don’t even try to resolve the apparent contradictions ourselves. Understanding or partial understanding needs to come by the Holy Spirit and eventually will.

It's from this foundation of having been made the righteousness of Christ that we even seek to run the race lawfully (He being the cornerstone of the foundation)….His Spirit within, His conscience, His fear, as well as gratitude and love for the Lord for so great a salvation which makes us want to please Him.

The scale of the gospel is missed by denying the power that comes by abiding in Christ. The gospel is about the power to walk as Jesus walked. having a form of godliness is OK but not if it denies the power of the gospel to instantly translate the saint into the kingdom walk in the Spirit.

 

[Wrangler]

That told me nothing.
Speak up.

I did speak up. You aren't listening.

Not everything that exists is in context. Of course, the human mind likes to make connections that aren't there, Apophenia. Also, humans tend to impose their humanity onto things that are not human, Anthropomorphize. So, we must guard against imposing ourselves onto what we perceive.

The Koran, Proverbs and Psalms are but 3 literary works that have no context. Psalm 22 is not better understood "in context" by reading 23 & 24. Each chapter stands on it's own.

It is the same with idioms leveraged for wisdom sake. For instance, "A rolling stone gathers no moss" has no context. However, it does have application. This explains why there are so many Application Bibles.

Bringing this full circle, the parable of the 10 virgins has no context. It is simply a story to promote virtue, the virtue of prudence, to be prepared. Specifically, be prepared to meet your maker.

Hope this helps!

 

[Wrangler]

And yet mostly "The words that I speak to you are spirit" and not at all a matter of "reading comprehension."

You are out of context.

So says the mystic.

 

[Episkopos]

So says the mystic.

Do you flat out deny that the words of Jesus are Spirit and life? Is Jesus a mystic? Or can you admit you have no idea what the NT is about?

 

[Behold]

The gospel is HARD on the flesh

The Gospel is that Jesus was sent into this world to save sinners by dying for them on the Cross.
Faith in that Gospel gets you God's Forgiveness, Through Christ.

This is "hard on your flesh"?
Really?

Thats very strange theology you are ranting out in nearly every post and Thread., if not all.
I wonder where you got it, as its not related to Paul, or the Grace of God.....or any Protestant Mainline Denomination.

What is left? Just cults.

 

[Episkopos]

What is the strong delusion that causes so many to believe the lie?

2 Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

How can people believe the truth when they have opted for a pretend righteousness?

v.10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

A pretend righteousness is actually unrighteousness. If we love the truth then we will not settle for a pretend righteousness.

 

[Wrangler]

God considered Abraham to be righteous. This doesn't mean that God saw Abraham to be as righteous as He is. There is a human scale to righteousness. Just like there is a human scale to strength (God is far stronger).

Appeal to mystical dualism. Not everything is relative. Some things are absolute. Being right or wrong are absolute.

 

[Lizbeth]

22 This righteousness/justification is given through faith in Jesus Christ (same chapter)

By the power/grace of God, yes, through trust/faith

Not by the power of God without or apart from that trust but THROUGH that trust

If you take away the through trust part, you only have this: but without trust it is impossible to please God.
If you take away the through trust part you are left with: justified freely by His power/grace and without the trust that pleases Him and through which a man is justified.

Without the part of the trust, you will just wander and then die in the wilderness. Just ask Israel.

So when you quote and underline this part: justified freely by His power/grace, you still need to firmly understand the other part you quoted: through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ (which is through trust).

Yes, absolutely. Through faith that is not of our own lest any man should boast. We are simply to follow/obey Him....His leading. And it takes faith/trust to do that.

 

[Episkopos]

Appeal to mystical dualism. Not everything is relative. Some things are absolute. Being right or wrong are absolute.

In your scheme Jesus was resurrected from the dead so that the whole world can continue to sin. The absolute here is the "non-dualistic"..."without Me you can do nothing."