Doctrinal Clarity or vagueness?

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Mr E

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LOL. Its so funny how people react to apostolic doctrine. It is God who receives us into the high calling...not a religious clique. Paul sought to win Christ and be translated into the Beloved. People 2,000 years later have NO idea what Paul is talking about. There's no idea of what it means to walk in resurrection life. Again, all of this is by election of God, not some kind of religious posturing.

In the time of the early church the spiritual brotherhood was seen as a dangerous sect by the more worldly minded. We have returned to that same worldliness, but now pushed by religious people.

It's funny that you lean upon Paul, who declares himself to be an apostle (while saying his appointment was from Jesus and the Father, but declares this himself as well) as your model for the 'high calling' which you appropriate for yourself in similar fashion.

Are you a people? When you say 'People 2000 years later have NO idea what Paul is talking about" you mean 'other' people, don't you? People other than yourself. Maybe concentrate your efforts less on Paul and more on Jesus

-because you say things like this--

The empty vessels are the free samples that have run out. Most modern Protestants believe they are as saved as they can possibly be by entering into the wilderness walk. They know nothing of the Promised Land. Those who have oil have BOUGHT the oil by paying ALL they have to obtain the endless supply of grace that comes from abiding IN Christ.


It's jibberish. It's not jibberish because I don't understand what you are saying. It's jibberish because I do.
 
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Episkopos

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It's funny that you lean upon Paul, who declares himself to be an apostle (while saying his appointment was from Jesus and the Father, but declares this himself as well) as your model for the 'high calling' which you appropriate for yourself in similar fashion.

Are you a people? When you say 'People 2000 years later have NO idea what Paul is talking about" you mean 'other' people, don't you? People other than yourself. Maybe concentrate your efforts less on Paul and more on Jesus

-because you say things like this--




It's jibberish. It's not jibberish because I don't understand what you are saying. It's jibberish because I do.
you think you understand...but the scale you are dealing with is limited to human reasoning. A spiritually blind person doesn't know they are blind. They think they see eternal things by using carnal senses.

1 Cor, 2:14 But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Tsk. I have to go and I haven’t even got through all of epis posts from yesterday. Sigh…Until tonight then. You guys have a fruitful discussion.
 
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Lizbeth

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God doesn't impute anything to us that isn't true. Otherwise God is partaking in the pretend schemes of men.
It's true there are those who just pretend and parrot things in the bible, yes, or sometimes it's that faith isn't very deep and there is the need for their faith to grow etc. "Children" do tend to indulge in magical thinking. But that isn't the fault of the truth and what is written in the bible...that is just how we may wrongly handle it in the flesh.

We need to remember that this IS by faith not by sight. Faith is the SUBSTANCE of things HOPED FOR, the EVIDENCE of things NOT SEEN (yet). All things HAVE been put under His feet, but we do not yet SEE all things put under.

Romans 3 says that God called Abraham the father of many nations.....He said that He HAD MADE Abraham a father of many nations...... when he and Sarah were as good as dead being past reproductive age and before they had any children. He is the God who quickeneth the dead and CALLETH THOSE THINGS THAT BE NOT AS THOUGH THEY ARE.

It's like when He told the Israelites that He HAD given them the land of Canaan, BEFORE they had actually gone in to fight and possess the land. And how when He sometimes would say to one of the kings that He HAD given them their enemies into their hands BEFORE they had even gone into battle. It's as though the truth of God (which we receive and believe by faith) trumps the facts on the ground...but it may take time and battling before the facts line up with the truth.

So if He has made us righteous before we are fully walking in it, then amen! That encourages us and makes us rejoice and be grateful! And it should and does INSPIRE us to seek to live up to that. When we receive His Spirit by faith it inspires us and goads us on, it reminds us of the fear of the Lord, and informs our conscience when we need to be doing better. By faith Abraham believed that God was able to perform what He had promised....that goes along with where it says, that He who has begun a good work in us will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.
 
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-Phil

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Attributing clarity-vagueness to doctrine is most misleading & deceptive.
 

Mr E

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you think you understand...but the scale you are dealing with is limited to human reasoning. A spiritually blind person doesn't know they are blind. They think they see eternal things by using carnal senses.

1 Cor, 2:14 But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I can scarcely think of a more arrogant thing to say.... oh wait, I can. I could call myself "Overseer" and wear a fancy hat.

Oh wise one.... here's a link to a potential discussion of the parable you misappropriated in this thread, trying to make your doctrinal stew.

 

stunnedbygrace

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Yes, absolutely. Through faith that is not of our own lest any man should boast. We are simply to follow/obey Him....His leading. And it takes faith/trust to do that.
I used to think that distinction was important but I’ve been rethinking it, but not hard thinking because I don’t think it’s as important as the things that are really, really bad. I would have never trusted God unless He had healed my blindness so I could see He existed, so…I didn’t just muster trust on my own. Otherwise, why don’t I believe in Big Foot and fairies too? So I’m fine with saying my trust came from Him as a gift. It’s not a bad way to see it. It’s probably a good way to see it.
 

stunnedbygrace

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So if He has made us righteous before we are fully walking in it, then amen!
What does that even MEAN…? Made us righteous before we are righteous?
The Blood covers us. Why does anyone think His Blood so inefficacious that they have to make stuff up about being righteous even if, or when, they don’t do what’s right.
 

stunnedbygrace

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If righteousness is a gift from God how can it be our own, (or Abraham's own) righteousness?
One man did this. One lone man, said “God counted it as righteousness” means God gave Abraham His own righteousness. And everyone believed him and started saying it.
It doesn’t mean that.
God said Abraham did the right thing when Abraham believed Him. That’s all that was said there.

6 And Abram believed the Lord, and the Lordcounted him as righteous because of his faith.
where does it say in this verse that God gave Abraham His own righteousness? It doesn’t say that.
 

Lizbeth

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One man did this. One lone man, said “God counted it as righteousness” means God gave Abraham His own righteousness. And everyone believed him and started saying it.
It doesn’t mean that.
God said Abraham did the right thing when Abraham believed Him. That’s all that was said there.

6 And Abram believed the Lord, and the Lordcounted him as righteous because of his faith.
where does it say in this verse that God gave Abraham His own righteousness? It doesn’t say that..

Rom 4:23-24

Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
But for us also
, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead

Rom 5:16-17

And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
 

Lizbeth

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What does that even MEAN…? Made us righteous before we are righteous?
The Blood covers us. Why does anyone think His Blood so inefficacious that they have to make stuff up about being righteous even if, or when, they don’t do what’s right.
God "calling those things that be not as though they are."
 

Lizbeth

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I used to think that distinction was important but I’ve been rethinking it, but not hard thinking because I don’t think it’s as important as the things that are really, really bad. I would have never trusted God unless He had healed my blindness so I could see He existed, so…I didn’t just muster trust on my own. Otherwise, why don’t I believe in Big Foot and fairies too? So I’m fine with saying my trust came from Him as a gift. It’s not a bad way to see it. It’s probably a good way to see it.
Amen....just believe what the scripture says.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Rom 4:23-24

Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
But for us also
, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead

Rom 5:16-17

And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Abraham’s Justification by Faith​

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, [a]our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified [b]by works, he has something to boast about; but not [c]before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”4 Now to the one who works, the wages are not credited as a favor, but as what is due.5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the person to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
8 Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”
9 Is this blessing then on [d]the circumcised, or on [e]the uncircumcised also? For we say, “Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.” 10 How then was it credited? While he was [f]circumcised, or [g]uncircumcised? Not while [h]circumcised, but while [i]uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [j]he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which [k]he had while uncircumcised.

13 For the promise to Abraham or to his [l]descendants that he would be heir of the world was not [m]through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are [n]of the Law are heirs, then faith is made void and the promise is nullified;15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

16 For this reason it is [o]by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the [p]descendants, not only to [q]those who are of the Law, but also to [r]those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,17 (as it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, that is, God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that do not exist. 18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, “So shall your [s]descendants be.”19 Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good asdead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. 22 Therefore it was also credited to him as righteousness.23 Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, 24 but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, to us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 He who was delivered over because of our wrongdoings, and was raised because of our justification.

I bolded the first verses you quote. I used NASB.
I do not see where it says God gave Abraham, or us, His righteousness.
Credited it to me as righteous. That’s all I see.

In the next verse you quote,
17 For if by the offense of the one, death reigned through the one, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Now HERE, where it says the ABUNDANCE of grace and the gift of righteousness, and reigning in life, it IS talking about, not just christ abiding in you but also you abiding in Him. (And there is no sin in Him).
Unless you say you are already reigning over sin in this life?

It’s the truth that some verses speak of the righteousness a man is capable of (men CAN do the right thing sometimes you know) and some speak of entering into Christ’s righteousness and holiness , in which case, you do not sin while there, which is to be reigning over sin in life.
If you don’t understand that some verses are speaking of different things, you will say things men have taught you to say, such as…I am as righteous as Christ, even if I do something very wrong, I have Christ’s own righteousness, that person over there who feeds the poor and takes care of the needy and clothes orphans, they are not righteous all they do might look righteous but it’s just filthy rags compared to the righteousness I have, even when I don’t do those things they do. Yessiree, I am righteous and holy, EVEN if I don’t walk that way yet!
So, you have taken away the righteousness of the righteous AND you are not holy.

By lying to my people who love to listen to lies, you kill those who should not die, and you promise life to those who should not live.
22 You have discouraged the righteous with your lies, but I didn’t want them to be sad. And you have encouraged the wicked by promising them life, even though they continue in their sins. 23 Because of all this, you will no longer talk of seeing visions that you never saw, nor will you make predictions.
 
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Lizbeth

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Abraham’s Justification by Faith​

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, [a]our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified [b]by works, he has something to boast about; but not [c]before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”4 Now to the one who works, the wages are not credited as a favor, but as what is due.5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the person to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
8 Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”
9 Is this blessing then on [d]the circumcised, or on [e]the uncircumcised also? For we say, “Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.” 10 How then was it credited? While he was [f]circumcised, or [g]uncircumcised? Not while [h]circumcised, but while [i]uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [j]he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which [k]he had while uncircumcised.

13 For the promise to Abraham or to his [l]descendants that he would be heir of the world was not [m]through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are [n]of the Law are heirs, then faith is made void and the promise is nullified;15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

16 For this reason it is [o]by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the [p]descendants, not only to [q]those who are of the Law, but also to [r]those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,17 (as it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, that is, God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that do not exist. 18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, “So shall your [s]descendants be.”19 Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good asdead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. 22 Therefore it was also credited to him as righteousness.23 Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, 24 but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, to us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 He who was delivered over because of our wrongdoings, and was raised because of our justification.

I bolded the first verses you quote. I used NASB.
I do not see where it says God gave Abraham, or us, His righteousness.
Credited it to me as righteous. That’s all I see.

In the next verse you quote,
17 For if by the offense of the one, death reigned through the one, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Now HERE, where it says the ABUNDANCE of grace and the gift of righteousness, and reigning in life, it IS talking about, not just christ abiding in you but also you abiding in Him. (And there is no sin in Him).
Unless you say you are already reigning over sin in this life?

It’s the truth that some verses speak of the righteousness a man is capable of (men CAN do the right thing sometimes you know) and some speak of entering into Christ’s righteousness and holiness , in which case, you do not sin while there, which is to be reigning over sin in life.
If you don’t understand that some verses are speaking of different things, you will say things men have taught you to say, such as…I am as righteous as Christ, even if I do something very wrong, I have Christ’s own righteousness, that person over there who feeds the poor and takes care of the needy and clothes orphans, they are not righteous all they do might look righteous but it’s just filthy rags compared to the righteousness I have, even when I don’t do those things they do. Yessiree, I am righteous and holy, EVEN if I don’t walk that way yet!
So, you have taken away the righteousness of the righteous AND you are not holy.

By lying to my people who love to listen to lies, you kill those who should not die, and you promise life to those who should not live.
22 You have discouraged the righteous with your lies, but I didn’t want them to be sad. And you have encouraged the wicked by promising them life, even though they continue in their sins. 23 Because of all this, you will no longer talk of seeing visions that you never saw, nor will you make predictions.
Don't know what more I can say on this. Of course it needs to be taken in balance with the rest of the new testament teachings.

People often do mishandle and misunderstand God word and jump to wrong conclusions....it doesn't make His word wrong.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Don't know what more I can say on this. Of course it needs to be taken in balance with the rest of the new testament teachings.

People often do mishandle and misunderstand God word and jump to wrong conclusions....it doesn't make His word wrong.
I never said Gods word was wrong.
The doctrines however, they stink to high heaven! Not all of them. But the ones that do, do so exceedingly.
 
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Wrangler

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you think you understand...but the scale you are dealing with is limited to human reasoning.
Your unrelenting commitment to mysticism is noted. Given that you too are human, it necessarily follows that YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND your own gibberish, being limited with human reasoning and all.
 

Episkopos

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Don't know what more I can say on this. Of course it needs to be taken in balance with the rest of the new testament teachings.

People often do mishandle and misunderstand God word and jump to wrong conclusions....it doesn't make His word wrong.
But if we can trace the wrong conclusions to a wrong doctrine...then all we need is sound doctrine to bring light into the darkness. :)
 

Lizbeth

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One man did this. One lone man, said “God counted it as righteousness” means God gave Abraham His own righteousness. And everyone believed him and started saying it.
It doesn’t mean that.
God said Abraham did the right thing when Abraham believed Him. That’s all that was said there.

6 And Abram believed the Lord, and the Lordcounted him as righteous because of his faith.
where does it say in this verse that God gave Abraham His own righteousness? It doesn’t say that.
Thought I had already posted this, but I might have forgotten to, or maybe it was on another thread:

Rom 3:21-22

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Thought I had already posted this, but I might have forgotten to, or maybe it was on another thread:

Rom 3:21-22

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference
From day one? Or could it mean: the righteousness of God that comes to them or WILL come to them by, or through, trust?