Heresy or error?

[Enoch111]

You said there’s no difference between righteous and holy. I gave you a verse that shows the holy/overcomers in this life ruling over the righteous/the nations.

There is in fact no difference between the righteous and the holy. And the saints rule over the saved nations, but that does not change anything in terms of definitions.

 

[Enoch111]

And who ARE those that the overcomers rule over during that reign? Who ARE those people?

We may not know all the details at this point but after Christ has destroyed all His enemies and established His Kingdom on earth there will be saved nations on earth surrounding redeemed and restored Israel. And those are the nations over whom the saints will rule. David will be prince over Israel, the twelve apostles will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel, and Christ will be King of kings and Lord of lords. Every nation will be subject to Christ and His saints.

And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. (Rev 21:22)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

There is in fact no difference between the righteous and the holy. And the saints rule over the saved nations, but that does not change anything in terms of definitions.

So the holy rule over the saved?

 

[Enoch111]

So the holy rule over the saved?

Do you have a problem with that?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Do you have a problem with that?

So define holy and define saved.

 

[Johann]

I will try one more time. You said there’s no difference between righteous and holy. I gave you a verse that shows the holy/overcomers in this life ruling over the righteous/the nations. Unless you think they are ruling over…coconuts? (Don’t get hissy, it’s a joke).Yes, it talks about the future, but it shows a distinction between the holy and “whoever” they rule over.

Correction, I said there is no distinction between a saint and faithful in Ep 1.
As for overcomers....



John 16:33
Verse Concepts
These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.”

Romans 8:37
Verse Concepts
But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.

1 John 2:13
Verse Concepts
I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father.

1 John 4:4
Verse Concepts
You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.

1 John 5:5
Verse Concepts
Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Revelation 2:7
Verse Concepts
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’


Revelation 2:17
Verse Concepts
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.’

Revelation 2:26
Verse Concepts
He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations;

Authority over the nations (exousian epi tōn ethnōn). From Psa_2:8. The followers of the Messiah will share in his victory over his enemies (Rev_1:6; Rev_12:5; Rev_19:15).

yes?

 

[Johann]

There are plenty of verses regarding the saints ruling with Christ in His eternal Kingdom. I will give you a few verses and then you can discover the rest.

Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? (1 Cor 6:2,3)

God sees His children as a Royal Priesthood -- kings and priests. Thus we read in Revelation 20:4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The thousand years is just a prelude to eternity.

Thanks, I have posted more verses on overcomers to stunned.
Shalom
J.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Correction, I said there is no distinction between a saint and faithful

I can’t say I like saying it that way, but because I believe I understand what is in Dave’s head when he says it, it doesn’t bother me very much.
Being faithful/having faith/trusting God is not the same as being taken into Gods holiness and walking in the Spirit. Otherwise, all those who trust God/have faith would be performing miracles.

 

[Johann]

I can’t say I like saying it that way, but because I believe I understand what is in Dave’s head when he says it, it doesn’t bother me very much.
Being faithful/having faith/trusting God is not the same as being taken into Gods holiness and walking in the Spirit. Otherwise, all those who trust God/have faith would be performing miracles.

I noticed you have a problem with "imputed righteousness?" Correct?

Lev_7:18 And if any of the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings be eaten at all on the third day, it shall not be accepted, neither shall it be imputed unto him that offereth it: it shall be an abomination, and the soul that eateth of it shall bear his iniquity.

Lev_17:4 And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer an offering unto the LORD before the tabernacle of the LORD; blood shall be imputed unto that man; he hath shed blood; and that man shall be cut off from among his people:

Rom_4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Rom_4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom_4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom_4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Rom_5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Jas_2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Who's righteousness is imputed, in scripture, to whom?
Secondly. are you Pentecostal?

 

[Johann]

Being faithful/having faith/trusting God is not the same as being taken into Gods holiness and walking in the Spirit. Otherwise, all those who trust God/have faith would be performing miracles.

Walking in the Spirit and being led by the Spirit are not to separate things, they are one and the same.
Being a saint and faithful is no different groups, they are synonymous.

 

[Johann]

I can’t say I like saying it that way, but because I believe I understand what is in Dave’s head when he says it, it doesn’t bother me very much.
Being faithful/having faith/trusting God is not the same as being taken into Gods holiness and walking in the Spirit. Otherwise, all those who trust God/have faith would be performing miracles.

Sorry to say this, your train of thought is vague, incoherent, confused.
J.

 

[Johann]

but because I believe I understand what is in Dave’s head when he says it, it doesn’t bother me very

I can’t say I like saying it that way, but because I believe I understand what is in Dave’s head when he says it, it doesn’t bother me very much.
Being faithful/having faith/trusting God is not the same as being taken into Gods holiness and walking in the Spirit. Otherwise, all those who trust God/have faith would be performing miracles.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Going for the night guys. Doing Ephesians and coffee.
If anyone wants to look into this, they’ve been given sufficient information in this thread. If anyone hungers for true righteousness in the inside of their cup, if anyone sees we must have something wrong to be so weak and without victory over our flesh, if anyone ever finds themselves whispering, where is the God of Paul, you can look up the verses and see that our leaders have led us astray with some bad doctrines.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Walking in the Spirit and being led by the Spirit are not to separate things, they are one and the same.
Being a saint and faithful is no different groups, they are synonymous.

You keep saying it, but the verses that I read show there is a difference. And no to your question of if I am Pentecostal. I’m not even sure what it means. I have no denomination and if I did, I would check what they told me carefully. I’m not a Protestant because of some of the very bad doctrines they harm men with. But I take comfort when I see a few of my brothers managing to remain humble even despite them.

 

[Johann]

You keep saying it, but the verses that I read show there is a difference. And no to your question of if I am Pentecostal. I’m not even sure what it means. I have no denomination and if I did, I would check what they told me carefully. I’m not a Protestant because of some of the very bad doctrines they harm men with. But I take comfort when I see a few of my brothers managing to remain humble even despite them.

Charismatic, Word of Faith?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Charismatic, Word of Faith?

Oh…charismatic is the same as word of faith and Pentecostal?
definitely not. Word of faith I’ve heard is pretty bad. i did listen to some of those guys a long time ago after I came to God. They were selling prayer shawls and things to protect your house from demons. It was utter nonsense to me. And at the time, I recalled a verse that described them In an eerily accurate way. The one about charms and magic veils. Hang on I’ll find it.

What sorrow awaits you women who are ensnaring the souls of my people, young and old alike. You tie magic charms on their wrists and furnish them with magic veils. Do you think you can trap others without bringing destruction on yourselves?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

save us, from what exactly? Can you Quote that pls if you would ty

Save us from the world, from death, from the wrath to come, from the flesh that rules over us, from a life of futility

She will give birth to a Son; and you shall name Him Jesus, for [t]He will save His people from their sins.”

 

[Johann]

You keep saying it, but the verses that I read show there is a difference.

Quite simple, it's all in the Definite Articles/s

Eph 1:1 PAUL, AN apostle (special messenger) of Christ Jesus (the Messiah), by the divine will (the purpose and the choice of God) to the saints (the consecrated, set-apart ones) at Ephesus who are also faithful and loyal and steadfast in Christ Jesus:
AMP

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:
ESV

παυλος αποστολος ιησου χριστου δια θεληματος θεου τοις αγιοις τοις ουσιν εν εφεσω και πιστοις εν χριστω ιησου

You don't "see" It?

 

[Johann]

Quite simple, it's all in the Definite Articles/s

Eph 1:1 PAUL, AN apostle (special messenger) of Christ Jesus (the Messiah), by the divine will (the purpose and the choice of God) to the saints (the consecrated, set-apart ones) at Ephesus who are also faithful and loyal and steadfast in Christ Jesus:
AMP

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:
ESV

παυλος αποστολος ιησου χριστου δια θεληματος θεου τοις αγιοις τοις ουσιν εν εφεσω και πιστοις εν χριστω ιησου

You don't "see" It?

You don't have to listen, someone else might.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Quite simple, it's all in the Definite Articles/s

Eph 1:1 PAUL, AN apostle (special messenger) of Christ Jesus (the Messiah), by the divine will (the purpose and the choice of God) to the saints (the consecrated, set-apart ones) at Ephesus who are also faithful and loyal and steadfast in Christ Jesus:
AMP

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:
ESV

παυλος αποστολος ιησου χριστου δια θεληματος θεου τοις αγιοις τοις ουσιν εν εφεσω και πιστοις εν χριστω ιησου

You don't "see" It?

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus NKJV

To the saints who are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus 21st century KJV

to the saints that are [a]at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus ASV

To the holy and faithful people in Christ Jesus in Ephesus. CEB

to the saints and faithful in Christ Jesus who are at Ephesus. DARBY

to the saints being in Ephesus and faithful in Christ Jesus DLNT

to all the saints who are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus. DOUAY


So you see it is not so clear cut. There are many more translations like that. I only gave a few. And even in Greek it is not as clear cut as you insist it is.


Greek:
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
παυλος
Paul
noun (name)
nom-si-mas
αποστολος
apostle
noun
nom-si-mas
ιησου
of Jesus
noun (name)
gen-si-mas
χριστου
of Christ
noun (name)
gen-si-mas
δια
through
preposition
θεληματος
of will
noun
gen-si-neu
θεου
of God
noun
gen-si-mas
τοις
to the
def art
dat-pl-mas
αγιοις
to holies
adjective
dat-pl-mas
τοις
to the
def art
dat-pl-mas
ουσιν
to those being
participle
pres-act-par
dat-pl-mas
εν
in(to)
preposition
εφεσω
to Ephesus
noun (name)
dat-si-fem
και
and
conjunction
πιστοις
to steadfast
adjective
dat-pl-mas
εν
in(to)
preposition
χριστω
to Christ
noun (name)
dat-si-mas
ιησου
to Jesus
noun (name)
dat-si-mas



to the saints and to the faithful. That’s Greek.

So it’s okay though. We don’t arrive at our understanding by one verse but by many.