Doctrinal Clarity or vagueness?

[Lizbeth]

But if we can trace the wrong conclusions to a wrong doctrine...then all we need is sound doctrine to bring light into the darkness. :)

Agree with this in principle brother, of course. :) But being made the righteousness of Christ is not darkness, oh my, that is the light that dispels our darkness!

Scripture itself affirms this doctrine we're discussing and gives it as the reason for not sinning, and also goes on to warn in many places against abusing it. It warns against abusing it because it can be and does get abused. Over the years I've seen how valid truths get mishandled by the flesh. I sometimes think of that as being "set in cement" of the carnal mind (knowledge of G&E) , as opposed to holding the truth in spirit (tree of Life).

 

[Episkopos]

Agree with this in principle brother, of course. :) But being made the righteousness of Christ is not darkness, oh my, that is the light that dispels our darkness!

Scripture itself affirms this doctrine we're discussing and gives it as the reason for not sinning, and also goes on to warn in many places against abusing it. It warns against abusing it because it can be and does get abused. Over the years I've seen how valid truths get mishandled by the flesh. I sometimes think of that as being "set in cement" of the carnal mind (knowledge of G&E) , as opposed to holding the truth in spirit (tree of Life).

I think I see what you mean. Holiness is not something we are allowed to play with. Why condemn a person who doesn't know how to handle something that can condemn him/her.

We have the example of Uzzah and the cart. He was killed for not appreciating holiness.

So why would God declare us holy....while we are not appreciative of what that entails?

I see that we are never holy...of ourselves. We can only grow in righteousness. There is the "righteousness of saints" not holiness of saints. Jesus Christ is our holiness, our life and our covering righteousness but only as we personally enter into Him.

Holiness is a covering of His ownership on us. Those who are owned by God have been crucified in their outer sin nature to reveal an inner man that has been set free...out from the jail of the outer man. Beneath that level of righteous holiness..we grow in righteousness and the character of Christ. Jesus is the most humble person in the world. And we learn from his humility as we walk in Him.

Now, the world HATED Jesus. And the flesh HATES the truth. If you have a chance to look over the threads I post...look at the reactions. All the cynicism, unbelief, and hatred of biblical doctrines that are not bent by human traditions. The prophetic challenge of the gospel exposes an upside down priority. God is selfless...but most people are living from self and for self. Calling THAT as having God''s righteousness imputed to it...is a great crime that will see many rejected altogether from God's presence.

Who is preaching the cross these days? Without the cross cutting away the ego...there can be no holy covering.

An anointing of Christ guides into ALL truth. it doesn't line up very much with the traditions of men, hence the difficulty the ego has with surrender to it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

God is selfless...but most people are living from self and for self.

For some reason, I was reminded of a quote by De Tocqueville, in his book about America.

“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money”.

I see some sort of parallel to voting for doctrines that….well, it would take some thought to word it, but I see it.

 

[Lizbeth]

From day one? Or could it mean: the righteousness of God that comes to them or WILL come to them by, or through, trust?

Yes from day one, that is what I believe..."unto all who believe." Hard to grasp how things that "aren't necessarily yet" on earth....."are" in heaven. It's like the scripture says the Lamb of God was slain from the foundation of the world, and yet we know He was slain in the first century. The bible isn't lying either way.

Trust is involved with faith, but I'm not sure it captures it entirely. Good to do a study on faith. It's spiritual, not of our own, but of the Holy Spirit. I almost equate the two, faith and Spirit...kind of walking by faith, is walking in the spirit. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen......such a beautiful verse that helps me to understand imputed righteousness that is by faith.

 

[Lizbeth]

I think I see what you mean. Holiness is not something we are allowed to play with. Why condemn a person who doesn't know how to handle something that can condemn him/her.

We have the example of Uzzah and the cart. He was killed for not appreciating holiness.

So why would God declare us holy....while we are not appreciative of what that entails?

I see that we are never holy...of ourselves. We can only grow in righteousness. There is the "righteousness of saints" not holiness of saints. Jesus Christ is our holiness, our life and our covering righteousness but only as we personally enter into Him.

Holiness is a covering of His ownership on us. Those who are owned by God have been crucified in their outer sin nature to reveal an inner man that has been set free...out from the jail of the outer man. Beneath that level of righteous holiness..we grow in righteousness and the character of Christ. Jesus is the most humble person in the world. And we learn from his humility as we walk in Him.

Now, the world HATED Jesus. And the flesh HATES the truth. If you have a chance to look over the threads I post...look at the reactions. All the cynicism, unbelief, and hatred of biblical doctrines that are not bent by human traditions. The prophetic challenge of the gospel exposes an upside down priority. God is selfless...but most people are living from self and for self. Calling THAT as having God''s righteousness imputed to it...is a great crime that will see many rejected altogether from God's presence.

Who is preaching the cross these days? Without the cross cutting away the ego...there can be no holy covering.

An anointing of Christ guides into ALL truth. it doesn't line up very much with the traditions of men, hence the difficulty the ego has with surrender to it.

I certainly agree with holiness and being perfected, and crave to see more being taught along those lines. And I don't agree with bad attitudes that crop up too frequently on forums. Some of it is just rough-and-tumble, I'm sure, but it can get nasty. But I read where Christ is the firstfruits....if the firstfruits is holy the whole lump is holy. It is He who sanctifies us.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes from day one, that is what I believe..."unto all who believe." Hard to grasp how things that "aren't necessarily yet" on earth....."are" in heaven.

I think it’s very clever. It ties Gods hands against not continuing in trust. It’s a deal to cheat death that cannot stand.

Trust is involved with faith, but I'm not sure it captures it entirely.

Im all ears. Capture it in more entirety for me. What did Jesus mean when He said, why is your faith so little?

Good to do a study on faith. It's spiritual, not of our own, but of the Holy Spirit.

Ive already said I don’t have a problem with thinking our trust originated from God and I layed out why. But you will have to explain why those who don’t continue in trust to the end are warned they can be cut off just as Israel was for not continuing in it. Because it’s sounding like I have to blame the Holy Spirit for the failure?

I almost equate the two, faith and Spirit...kind of walking by faith, is walking in the spirit. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen......such a beautiful verse that helps me to understand imputed righteousness that is by faith.

I’ll pass on this part for now.

 

[Nancy]

For some reason, I was reminded of a quote by De Tocqueville, in his book about America.

“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money”.

I see some sort of parallel to voting for doctrines that….well, it would take some thought to word it, but I see it.

Prophetic quote, lol. Or, just someone who was able to see the writing on the wall, so to speak-always think of Daniel when hearing/reading that phrase, lol.

Purgatory (as has been taught by the CC for centuries) could be one of those doctrines, and I'm not saying there is not going to be some sort of "purgation" because there will be, IMO!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Prophetic quote, lol. Or, just someone who was able to see the writing on the wall, so to speak-always think of Daniel when hearing/reading that phrase, lol.

Purgatory (as has been taught by the CC for centuries) could be one of those doctrines, and I'm not saying there is not going to be some sort of "purgation" because there will be, IMO!

I agree there will be some kind of purgation. I have verses that I believe show it. The one about not being released from “prison” until you’ve paid the last farthing and also the one about receiving less stripes or more stripes.

 

[Lizbeth]

I think it’s very clever. It ties Gods hands against not continuing in trust. It’s a deal to cheat death that cannot stand.

Only because you're not grasping what I've been trying to say.

Im all ears. Capture it in more entirety for me. What did Jesus mean when He said, why is your faith so little?

How about you do your own homework on it? I've already been working hard here.

 

[Nancy]

I agree there will be some kind of purgation. I have verses that I believe show it. The one about not being released from “prison” until you’ve paid the last farthing and also the one about receiving less stripes or more stripes.

Yes, and also "hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord." 1 Cor. 5:5

 

[Lizbeth]

Ive already said I don’t have a problem with thinking our trust originated from God and I layed out why. But you will have to explain why those who don’t continue in trust to the end are warned they can be cut off just as Israel was for not continuing in it. Because it’s sounding like I have to blame the Holy Spirit for the failure?

Nope, you are jumping to the wrong conclusions about what I've been saying.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Only because you're not grasping what I've been trying to say.

How about you do your own homework on it? I've already been working hard here.

I don’t need to do any homework on it. When He said why is your faith so little, He meant “trust”/ belief in Me.” He was not asking, why are your doctrines so little.
You are the one who brought up the idea that faith means something more than trust. I was willing to listen. I assume you couldn’t come up with more than a vague idea but I don’t know for sure because you choose not to expound on it.

 

[Lizbeth]

I don’t need to do any homework on it. When He said why is your faith so little, He meant “trust”/ belief in Me.” He was not asking, why are your doctrines so little.
You are the one who brought up the idea that faith means something more than trust. I was willing to listen. I assume you couldn’t come up with more than a vague idea but I don’t know for sure because you choose not to expound on it.

Assume away sister.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Alrighty then.

 

[Wynona]

THIS IS THE GOSPEL. Recommend pulling up a chair and reading those scriptures prayerfully from your own bibles. But it doesn’t nullify all the warnings and admonitions. We are not to use this grace and liberty as a license to sin…..and how can we who are dead to sin live in it any longer…..God is not mocked….if we keep on wilfully sinning there is no more sacrifice for sins…. Etc, etc. It may appear paradoxical such that if we try to reason it out with our logical carnal mind we will miss the mark. We need to just believe and receive everything written and don’t even try to resolve the apparent contradictions ourselves. Understanding or partial understanding needs to come by the Holy Spirit and eventually will.

It's from this foundation of having been made the righteousness of Christ that we even seek to run the race lawfully (He being the cornerstone of the foundation)….His Spirit within, His conscience, His fear, as well as gratitude and love for the Lord for so great a salvation which makes us want to please Him.

Well said.

 

[Lizbeth]

22 This righteousness/justification is given through faith in Jesus Christ (same chapter)

By the power/grace of God, yes, through trust/faith

Not by the power of God without or apart from that trust but THROUGH that trust

If you take away the through trust part, you only have this: but without trust it is impossible to please God.
If you take away the through trust part you are left with: justified freely by His power/grace and without the trust that pleases Him and through which a man is justified.

Without the part of the trust, you will just wander and then die in the wilderness. Just ask Israel.

So when you quote and underline this part: justified freely by His power/grace, you still need to firmly understand the other part you quoted: through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ (which is through trust).

I wasn't even going to answer this, but goodness, what on earth have I been talking about all along sister....Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness.....etc. It's looking as though some folks are not sincere in this conversation but are only hoping to find something they can criticize about those who don't hold to their doctrine.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I wasn't even going to answer this, but goodness, what on earth have I been talking about all along sister....Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness.....etc. It's looking as though some folks are not sincere in this conversation but are only hoping to find something they can criticize about those who don't hold to their doctrine.

Hmm…okay. You just called me insincere and said I am hoping to find something I can criticize you about because I don’t believe your doctrine. Except…YOU just criticized ME.

 

[Lizbeth]

Hmm…okay. You just called me insincere and said I am hoping to find something I can criticize you about because I don’t believe your doctrine. Except…YOU just criticized ME.

Perhaps disingenuous is the better word.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Perhaps disingenuous is the better word.

Oh you’re just looking for reasons to scrofulously criticize me since I don’t hold your doctrine.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Perhaps disingenuous is the better word.

disingenuous
adjective

not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.
Similar
dishonest

deceitful

underhand

underhanded

duplicitous

double-dealing

two-faced

dissembling

insincere

false

lying

untruthful

mendacious

not candid
not frank
not entirely truthful
artful

cunning

crafty

wily

sly

sneaky

tricky

scheming

calculating

designing

devious

unscrupulous

shifty

foxy

economical with the truth

terminologically inexact
subtle

hollow-hearted

false-hearted

double-faced

truthless
unveracious

My guess is that Wynona won’t be outraged at how you just talked to me…