23 major reasons to reject the Premil doctrine!

[Timtofly]

More avoidance. That is what you must do to sustain your position.

So don't reply then. You could avoid every point I made by just not replying. Accusing me of avoidance was exactly what you did in your post. You avoided what I posted, and according to you that is basically how you sustain your position. Just saying, because it seems pretty hip to make post like this.

 

[Timtofly]

Who said different? This evil age began at the Fall. The age to come does not have any carnality or corruption. You are avoiding my points.

You avoided Paul's points:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

You can look at it as one long age of sin. But God set up different stages of grace and light. You say we are still in only one age of sin from the beginning. Explain why that does not sound like this:

"And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

Your one long continuous age of sin while true, mocks what God has done since then.

If it is just because you base your perspective on sin, that a future 1,000 years without sin seems unnecessary, then the Flood was unnecessary. The Law of Moses was unnecessary, and while you acknowledge the Cross, you turn that into Satan being bound, just to declare there cannot be a future 1,000 years without sin. You simply avoid all those changes that God made without calling current creation null and void. The last 1,000 years of Christ reigning on earth is a step in God's plan like the Flood, calling Abraham out of the Nations, the Law of Moses and calling Israel out of Egypt, and the Cross.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

LOL. I rest my case. You twist the inspired text to fit your false teaching. You refuse to take it literally and in a straight forward manner. This exposes the error of your theology. This is why so many are abandoning your error.

Well then you r case is dismissed!
Sorry, but I know things like context, and case and tense and mood and voice and original language are foreign concepts to you, but that is how we learn to understand things. The grossest misinterpretations of the Bible have occurred in the camp of Augusint followerrs- the covenantalists and allegorists.

Just because there are 7 trumpets in revelation, does no make the 7th trumpet, the last trumpet Paul declared. YOu cannot establish that no matter how you try.

Next I suppose you are going to mock us who hold the literal view of Scripture for saying the Last Supper is not the last supper ever eaten, that is the logic of your foolishness.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No, you have ducked Scripture after Scripture, post after post, and argument. That is because you have no answer. Avoidance is your MO.

I will let HIm ask me, you have no say in my conversation with him. Other than of course to hurl your prepubescent ad-hominems.

I have posted many scrip-utres or simply quoted many of them, I cannot help if you choose to ignore that fact. But When he responds I will respond. I will not answer you anymore as his faux-spokesperson.

 

[WPM]

Well then you r case is dismissed!
Sorry, but I know things like context, and case and tense and mood and voice and original language are foreign concepts to you, but that is how we learn to understand things. The grossest misinterpretations of the Bible have occurred in the camp of Augusint followerrs- the covenantalists and allegorists.

Just because there are 7 trumpets in revelation, does no make the 7th trumpet, the last trumpet Paul declared. YOu cannot establish that no matter how you try.

Next I suppose you are going to mock us who hold the literal view of Scripture for saying the Last Supper is not the last supper ever eaten, that is the logic of your foolishness.

We should recognize: the seven trumpets outlined in Revelation chapters 8 to 10 are the only set of prophetic trumpets in Scripture. Scripture carefully knits together to show a climactic Coming of Christ at the end. Interesting all these references show us that His return is ushered in by the sound of the trumpet.

Christ said Himself, in Matthew 24:29-31, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

This is the end! Jesus clearly comes “after the tribulation.”

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 confirms this saying: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” His appearing sees “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.”

1 Corinthians 15:22-24, 51-53 describes a ‘last trump’ saying, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his Coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power ... Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

There is only one last trumpet, it means final trumpet - it sounds at Christ's climactic return. The word eschatos, from where we get our word English eschatology, and simply means end, last, farthest or final.

The Coming of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us that “all rule and all authority and power” are finally “put down” or katargeésee or abolished at the “Coming” or parousia of the Lord, which is, as we have established, confirmed in the next sentence as “the end.” The kingdom of God is finally and eternally presented “up,” whereas the kingdom of darkness is finally and eternally “put down.” It is this all-consummating last day that ushers in the end (or completion) of all things.

 

[WPM]

Well then you r case is dismissed!
Sorry, but I know things like context, and case and tense and mood and voice and original language are foreign concepts to you, but that is how we learn to understand things. The grossest misinterpretations of the Bible have occurred in the camp of Augusint followerrs- the covenantalists and allegorists.

Just because there are 7 trumpets in revelation, does no make the 7th trumpet, the last trumpet Paul declared. YOu cannot establish that no matter how you try.

Next I suppose you are going to mock us who hold the literal view of Scripture for saying the Last Supper is not the last supper ever eaten, that is the logic of your foolishness.

By clear implication, if the last trump relates to the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ there must be others that precede it. Revelation seems to support this weighty inference. Moreover, the seven trumpets outlined in Revelation chapters 8 to 10 are the only set of prophetic trumpets in Scripture. In the light of the explicit teaching and consistent pattern relating to the last trump elsewhere in the New Testament, and in order for our viewpoint to be true, accurate, compatible and complete (and all truth must fulfil this demanding criteria), the last trumpet in Revelation – number seven – must be a clear, vivid picture of the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Notwithstanding, when the Bible student carefully analyses the graphic descriptive detail of the seventh trumpet in Revelation in the light of other like Scripture he is left in no doubt to its subject matter and its startling cohesion with other prophetic readings. Only a blinkered eschatology student could deny that the last trumpet outlined in Revelation 10 is anything other that the same last trumpet outlined in other New Testament passages and a beautiful symbolic picture of the one final glorious Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

This proves that we are looking at recaps in Revelation. The last trump is the end of the world.

Revelation 10:1-4 declares, describing the seventh trumpet, “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.”

The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious second coming. We will the symbolism shortly.

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

There is clearly a major dilemma here for you those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events. They must surely concede, if they are going to be consistent with their view that everything after Revelation 11 (which also makes reference to the seventh trumpet) is in the realm of eternity and the after-life. After all Revelation 10 plainly records that with this particular event “there should be time no longer.” For those who would lightly dismiss this important narrative as anything other than a magnificent picture of the Lord Jesus Christ and His glorious Second Coming, they do foolishly ignore the great wealth of explicit and consistent end-time teaching on this subject and divorce the undoubted harmony of this chapter from the rest of New Testament prophetic teaching.

The chronological hypothesis in relation to the complete book of Revelation is defective in the extreme as, by its very nature, it must project chapters 11-22 into ‘the age that is to come’, as from this chapter on, time shall clearly be no more. If the dispensationalist is consistent, it must exclude the prophetic relevance of chapters 11-22 to the Church and mankind today or to any generation preceding the Second Coming of the Lord. In reality, the chronological theory capitulates at this juncture, like other similar readings, enjoying not even the remotest support. In fact, it undermines the very character and import of the book of Revelation which embodies a number of repeated cycles outlining God’s Sovereign dealings with both the righteous and the wicked. Dealings that include the great overall battle between good and evil, between Christ and Satan, the Church and its enemies.

We must first of all recognise, this is the second of seven similar symbolic parallels relating to intra-advent period, each of which take us up to the one final future all-consummating Coming of Christ (the day of God’s wrath) and the end of the world (when time shall undoubtedly be no more). This pattern of repeating the record of the same event from different angles is common throughout Scripture on most themes, none more that the glorious Coming of Christ.

The third parallel in Revelation 11:15 also makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including the conclusion of the second parallel in Revelation 10) on this single, final, all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” Those who reject such evidence do so (in the main) in order to support the Pretribulationist doctrine.

The respective chronological views dismiss the correct translation “there should be time no longer” and replace it by ‘there should be no more delay’. However, those who do such are still faced with insurmountable mountains, some of which we have already highlighted. Moreover, this is an undoubted forced interpretation, which must be opposed on several fronts.

Firstly, this is undoubtedly the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ – the end – it has absolutely nothing to do with delaying the days.

Secondly, the King James Version interprets the passage correctly and in context: “chronos ouketi estai”

‘Time - no longer – there shall be’!!!

Thirdly, the above interpretation of the Greek in this passage is in perfect and harmonious agreement with their consistent usage everywhere else in Scripture. Those who interpret it otherwise probably do so in an attempt to justify the Pre-mil theory, and the myriads of goats that their paradigm produces during their millennium.

Also, the interpretation of these Greek words in this passage, in the AV, is in clear and absolute agreement with their consistent usage throughout the rest of Scripture. Those therefore who interpret it otherwise probably do so to explain away the undoubted finality of the Second Coming or to support the inconsistent Pre-mil theory. The word chronos in this reading, which is rendered “time” in the AV, carries the consistent meaning of “time” or “times” in Scripture.

The next verse, verse 18 then reveals how the Second Advent ushers in the general judgment, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

The End!!!

The unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump - the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” NOT for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.”

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Christ said Himself, in Matthew 24:29-31, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

And I agree with you here! This is the end as jesus returns. but this trumpet is not the seventh trumpet judgment of revelation. for Scripture plainly and clearly writes that after teh seven angels sound their trumpets, there appear 7 more angels haveing seven vials which are the last plagues of god. Kind of hard to have Jesus return in the middle of the final plagues being poured out.

Revelation 15

King James Version

​

15 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

In order for your eschatology to even smack of correctness- you need to show that the seven vials and seven trumpets are the same.

I guess you believe the sixth seal and the seventh trumpet are the same as well:

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Here we have at the 7th trumpet Gods wrath is come.

And in REv. 6 we have:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

We literalists who believe God in what He says know that these are two different events. Sorry about you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

By clear implication, if the last trump relates to the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ there must be others that precede it. Revelation seems to support this weighty inference. Moreover, the seven trumpets outlined in Revelation chapters 8 to 10 are the only set of prophetic trumpets in Scripture. In the light of the explicit teaching and consistent pattern relating to the last trump elsewhere in the New Testament, and in order for our viewpoint to be true, accurate, compatible and complete (and all truth must fulfil this demanding criteria), the last trumpet in Revelation – number seven – must be a clear, vivid picture of the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

So now you make an implication a solid doctrine? WOW

Once again if John wrote about the last trump in the book of Revelation I would agree with you. But the rapture occurs before the end of teh tribulation (actually before it starts).

And I agree with you that the term last trump implies blasts before. But Paul had no clues of the seven trumpets of REelation when He wrote this.

Paul did know that all OT feasts, though real and literal were also types and shadows involving, Jesus, teh church or the Milennial kingdom.

Passover- Jesus death
First fruits- His resurrection
Pentecost- birth of the church

Even covenantalists and allegorists tend to agree that the feast of trumpets is symbolic of the rapture.(those who believe in a rapture that is)

The first of Trumpets had three series of trumpet blasts.
Set 1 90 blasts of the shofar.
Set 2 3 sets of three staccato blasts
Set 3 One long loud blast for as long as the blower has breath- called Tekiah Gedolah- the Last Trump!

When Paul used the term "Last Trump" He would have known this term very very very well, it was his probable default thought when he heard or wrote teh word, not some series of trumpet blasts that would be written about between 4 and 5 decades later.

 

[WPM]

So now you make an implication a solid doctrine? WOW

Once again if John wrote about the last trump in the book of Revelation I would agree with you. But the rapture occurs before the end of teh tribulation (actually before it starts).

And I agree with you that the term last trump implies blasts before. But Paul had no clues of the seven trumpets of REelation when He wrote this.

Paul did know that all OT feasts, though real and literal were also types and shadows involving, Jesus, teh church or the Milennial kingdom.

Passover- Jesus death
First fruits- His resurrection
Pentecost- birth of the church

Even covenantalists and allegorists tend to agree that the feast of trumpets is symbolic of the rapture.(those who believe in a rapture that is)

The first of Trumpets had three series of trumpet blasts.
Set 1 90 blasts of the shofar.
Set 2 3 sets of three staccato blasts
Set 3 One long loud blast for as long as the blower has breath- called Tekiah Gedolah- the Last Trump!

Look at the biblical evidence above instead of what you have been taught. All these speak about the one and only future return of Christ. They all say the same thing - it is the end. We are now into eternity. You cannot accept this reality because it exposes your beloved Premil doctrine. All of these verses correlate and demolish Premil.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Look at the biblical evidence above instead of what you have been taught. All these speak about the one and only future return of Christ. They all say the same thing - it is the end. We are now into eternity. You cannot accept this reality because it exposes your beloved Premil doctrine. All of these verses correlate and demolish Premil.

YOu are more interested in bashing people than looking at the truth!

No where does the rapture show the end of time.

Thesselonians shows the church taken, meeting the Lord in the aitrr and being with the Lord- no time frame.

1 Cor. 15 also does not give the timing of teh rapture.

The only thing we know of teh Trump fo god is that it will occur before the tribulation starts, for the church has been promised to be delivered from the wrath to come which is the 7 years of final history.

Now whether the rapture occurs on a future last day of the featr of trumps I know not but that would just be like God;

1. Temple rebuilt
2. Feast of trumps occurs.
3. The two shofar blowers mount the wings.
4. Blow the last trump of the feast
5. The church is taken.
6. God begins the process of judging Israel to purge teh rebels to prepare teh nation to receive jesus as Messiah.

all you have done to try to dissuade me is give conjecture, imnplications and attacks against pre-millensialism.

 

[WPM]

YOu are more interested in bashing people than looking at the truth!

No where does the rapture show the end of time.

Thesselonians shows the church taken, meeting the Lord in the aitrr and being with the Lord- no time frame.

1 Cor. 15 also does not give the timing of teh rapture.

The only thing we know of teh Trump fo god is that it will occur before the tribulation starts, for the church has been promised to be delivered from the wrath to come which is the 7 years of final history.

Now whether the rapture occurs on a future last day of the featr of trumps I know not but that would just be like God;

1. Temple rebuilt
2. Feast of trumps occurs.
3. The two shofar blowers mount the wings.
4. Blow the last trump of the feast
5. The church is taken.
6. God begins the process of judging Israel to purge teh rebels to prepare teh nation to receive jesus as Messiah.

all you have done to try to dissuade me is give conjecture, imnplications and attacks against pre-millensialism.

4 times above you spell "the" as "teh." That is not an accidental slip of the finger each time, that is lack of effort. This totally undermines your message. What is more, you refuse to use the spell checker in the site program.

Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9, 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, 51-53 are all all-consummating. You duck around the climactic detail in each passage. You have to. All I am getting is the usual faulty Pretrib soundbites that have repeatedly been proven to be extra-biblical erroneous over the years. Why do you not address the detail of the passage? What are you scared of? Revelation 10:1-4, 10:5-7, 11:15 and 18 beautifully correlate and support the Amil position and forbid Premil.

 

[Timtofly]

With dispensationalism the last trumpet isn't really the last trumpet, the last day isn't really the last day, the end of the age isn't really the actual end of the age. And so on. It's unbelievable. They redefine terms constantly to keep their doctrine afloat.

There is no manuscript evidence that Paul was talking about 7 Trumpets, or that John was talking about the same Trumpet as Paul.

That is a human interpretation to state they are the same Trumpet sound. Your human taught doctrine is at odds with other human taught doctrine. Not even John places a Second Coming with any of the 7 Trumpets sounding. They are judgments, and the last 3 include woes. None of the Trumpets in Revelation herald the glorious Second Coming event.

The closest one gets is the 7th Trumpet declares Jesus the winner. Jesus does not have to come to earth, nor be on earth to be declared the winner. However, Jesus will already be on the earth at that point. The reason some claim 7 years is that they say the 1260 days in Revelation 11 is part of the 6th Trumpet, and the 42 months in Revelation 13 is part of the 7th Trumpet.

You can try to point out as an Amil that Revelation 13 is a 3.5 year countdown to the Second Coming, but that is as wrong as saying there are 7 years between the 5th Trumpet and the end of Satan's 42 months. But to ignore all time given in Revelation is being irresponsible, and mocking dispensational teaching does not help you in ignoring this time mentioned in Revelation.

The 1260 days in Revelation 11 is the same period as the 42 months in Revelation 13. There will be 3.5 years of AoD, if there is any time involved in the book of Revelation. There may not be those 1260 days/42 months at all. There is no countdown to a Second Coming. It could happen at any moment with no warning at all. That is why Salvation is not something to procrastinate. There are no "do overs" in that department.

 

[Timtofly]

Premils cannot take Scripture literally. To do so would force them to abandon their beliefs. "First" does not mean first. "Last" does not mean last. Whatever is required to make Premil fit ultimately is the proper mean. That is ridiculous hermeneutics. That is called gerrymandering Scripture to force your private interpretation.

This has nothing to do with the Millennium reign. Why point that at Premil? Some Premil are post trib. So how does the timing of the Tribulation effect the Millennium?

Obviously, Premil take it more literally than some vague Amil interpretation that is so obscure, one size fits all. Amil would not know when Satan was loosed one bit, as all would be destroyed (according to Amil), before Satan could even hold a press conference, stating the Second Coming will happen after his 42 months of AoD.

 

[Timtofly]

This is the end! Jesus clearly comes “after the tribulation.”

Exactly, the tribulation of those days from the Cross until the Second Coming. You know that period you falsely claim is described in Revelation 20?

This is the tribulation the Second Coming is after:

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

All this comes to a full stop at the Second Coming. The church is no longer on the earth. So no one to persecute. The church is no longer on the earth, thus no more work of the Holy Spirit. So no one to submit to the Holy Spirit. The church is no longer on earth, so no one is spreading the Gospel, except Jesus Himself, because Premil take the Second Coming as literally Jesus physically on earth. His feet touch down on the mount of Olives, just like He left, and Zechariah 14 tells us.

Amil refuse to take Zechariah 14 literally but symbolize it as Jesus' ministry as Messiah, but not as Prince. Of course Jesus came before the tribulation per Amil, they call it the first advent. The Cross was prior to this time of tribulation. Because this tribulation has been ongoing for 1992 years, literally.

There have been deceiving antichrists. The church has been put in prison and killed. No one is waiting for that to happen to the church right before the Second Coming. The Second Coming could have happened any time after John sent those 7 letters to the 7 churches, as the tribulation of those days already happened. That tribulation would not stop until the Second Coming. Christians today are still put in prison and even beheaded. But they are not even the beheaded mentioned in the book of Revelation.

The Book of Revelation is the Revealing of Christ to the whole world, not just a prophecy about a Revealing. The book of Revelation does not reveal Christ to the Church. The church has already suffered for Christ in faith without sight. The book of Revelation is about the final ministry of Jesus on earth to change earth back to Adam's pre-disobedient condition. That means the baptism of fire that John the Baptist first foretold before the baptism of Jesus.

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

This is not just about the first century. 2 Peter 3 did not happen when Jesus was Christ on earth in the first century. The Second Coming is when Jesus pointed out the wheat and tares/chaff are harvested. That baptism of fire is for the time Jesus is on the earth as King. Amil want it to be all over before the end even starts. Matthew 13:36-42

"Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

This is not the parable. This is the literal point of the parable. Jesus and the angels are literally on the earth after the Second Coming. The earth is not dissolved, and many humans are still alive on the earth. The baptism of fire destroyed man's works, but humanity still goes on through Jacob's trouble and Satan's 42 months of AoD. Jacob's trouble and Satan's AoD is after the Second Coming, not prior to the Second Coming. Jesus and the angels are literally on the earth gathering the final harvest of those alive. Nothing whatsoever about physically dead people resurrected to live on earth at this time. Jesus is still about the Father's business rescuing souls from Adam's dead corruptible flesh, even before they physically die. Many will be cast into the LOF at that point. That is what John calls the final death and separation from God. But Death and sheol still wait, 1,000 years before the souls in them, stand as dead before the GWT. And the living can be cast into the LOF before physical death. There is no verse stating they have to die first. The judgment and eternal life sentence takes place at the same time. Matthew 25:32-46. These are people still physically alive, not resurrected dead souls. This is after the Second Coming, not some indefinite period of time, or ongoing phenomenon, between the first and second comings. The sheep and goats are not the entirety of an age. These are specific lost sheep of Israel, redeemed and allowed to reign with Christ as King on the earth. They are humans alive today, and the remnant of Israel redeemed at the Second Coming. The ones who go through Jacob's trouble.

Nor does the end of the world mean there will be no Day of the Lord, the Millennial reign of Christ. It certainly does not mean the first century, as Amil claim Zechariah 14 is only about the church, and not Jesus on earth as King. Yes Jesus is reigning as King, and has been since the Cross. But the reality of the 7th Trumpet sounding is that all on earth, will know Jesus as King. Not just something they read about.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

4 times above you spell "the" as "teh." That is not an accidental slip of the finger each time, that is lack of effort. This totally undermines your message. What is more, you refuse to use the spell checker in the site program.

Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9, 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, 51-53 are all all-consummating. You duck around the climactic detail in each passage. You have to. All I am getting is the usual faulty Pretrib soundbites that have repeatedly been proven to be extra-biblical erroneous over the years. Why do you not address the detail of the passage? What are you scared of? Revelation 10:1-4, 10:5-7, 11:15 and 18 beautifully correlate and support the Amil position and forbid Premil.

And you strain at gnats! The very fact you know my misspell is "the" shows you are just a fault finder.

YOu think I miss the climax, but I just reinterpret 1 Cor. 15 as you do and make the resurrection of the lost at the end of the millennial the all consuming resurrection- for Scripture doesn't. You totally ignore the context of the first resurrection in REv. 19 to make it be Jesus which it cannot!

And I preach Thess. often to remind believers that we shall not see the tribulation for that is the wrath and we shall be delivered from it! You demand the english word "coming" to mean the return of Jesus to earth which it doesn't.

And if you knew anything about the Jewish culture and language- you would know this is not a rapture to heaven but a gathering of all saved Jews from across the earth.

Well those REv. passages coorelate teh amil view, only if one reinterprets SCripture and redefine words to suit the amil agenda. Sorry but it just don't work that way.

 

[WPM]

And you strain at gnats! The very fact you know my misspell is "the" shows you are just a fault finder.

No, i just highlight a bad habit you refuse to address.

YOu think I miss the climax, but I just reinterpret 1 Cor. 15 as you do and make the resurrection of the lost at the end of the millennial the all consuming resurrection- for Scripture doesn't. You totally ignore the context of the first resurrection in REv. 19 to make it be Jesus which it cannot!

And I preach Thess. often to remind believers that we shall not see the tribulation for that is the wrath and we shall be delivered from it! You demand the english word "coming" to mean the return of Jesus to earth which it doesn't.

And if you knew anything about the Jewish culture and language- you would know this is not a rapture to heaven but a gathering of all saved Jews from across the earth.

Well those REv. passages coorelate teh amil view, only if one reinterprets SCripture and redefine words to suit the amil agenda. Sorry but it just don't work that way.

You add unto every single climactic passage to fit your faulty view of Revelation 20. That sums up your theology. You have nothing else in Scripture.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No, i just highlight a bad habit you refuse to address.



You add unto every single climactic passage to fit your faulty view of Revelation 20. That sums up your theology. You have nothing else in Scripture.

Well that is your allegation, yet to fail to give evidence your allegation has any merit.

Let me give one example. You demand that the seals, trumpets and vials are all concurrent, yet in
scripture the seals, trumpets and vials all affect different things in different ways and have different results.

No, i just highlight a bad habit you refuse to address.

And that is because it is easier to find fault with the minor issues than to address the glaring incongruities of amillenialism with Scripture as written.,

 

[WPM]

Well that is your allegation, yet to fail to give evidence your allegation has any merit.

Let me give one example. You demand that the seals, trumpets and vials are all concurrent, yet in
scripture the seals, trumpets and vials all affect different things in different ways and have different results.


And that is because it is easier to find fault with the minor issues than to address the glaring incongruities of amillenialism with Scripture as written.,

The opposite is the truth. You cannot seem to embrace any end-time chapter outside of Revelation 20. That is because they are clearly climactic. You therefore have to force your millennium into the text, where it does not exist. You just duck around the truth taught. “What saith Revelation 20” is your mantra. You have nothing else.

Let us take a Scripture at a time and see who has the truth.

Paul confirms the finality of the return of Jesus, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, stating, “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end [Gr. telos], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

Please note the careful correlation between the parousia and the telos. This is a truth that is found throughout the NT. They are synonymous with each other. There is absolutely nothing that Premillennialists can do with such a clear and climactic passage apart from deny the obvious or add unto Scripture by inserting “a thousand years” in-between the coming (parousia) of Christ and the end (telos) where it does not belong. This is the dilemma for Premil throughout the Word. They are fighting the obvious.

The Greek simply reads:

Christos – Christ
en – at
autos – His
parousia – coming
eita – then
telos – the end

The coming of the Lord is shown to be the end of the world. There is no gap of time in-between the coming of Christ, the resurrection and the end. They all belong to the one final climactic overall event.

 

[WPM]

And that is because it is easier to find fault with the minor issues than to address the glaring incongruities of amillenialism with Scripture as written.,

Instead of making these unfair claims can you present actual evidence?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The opposite is the truth. You cannot seem to embrace any end-time chapter outside of Revelation 20. That is because they are clearly climactic. You therefore have to force your millennium into the text, where it does not exist. You just duck around the truth taught. “What saith Revelation 20” is your mantra. You have nothing else.

If they were clearly climatic then all would see it. And no I do not dick truth, I embrace, despite your pontificating to the opposite.

But as for teh time frame of Jesus earthly kingdom- yes that is the mantra. It is the only chapter in the bible that gives the time frame. sorry it is not enough for you so you have to rewrite the Word of God to fit amillenialism.

And for decades I have taught the whole counsel of eschatology.

Paul confirms the finality of the return of Jesus, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, stating, “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end [Gr. telos], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

Please note the careful correlation between the parousia and the telos. This is a truth that is found throughout the NT. They are synonymous with each other. There is absolutely nothing that Premillennialists can do with such a clear and climactic passage apart from deny the obvious or add unto Scripture by inserting “a thousand years” in-between the coming (parousia) of Christ and the end (telos) where it does not belong. This is the dilemma for Premil throughout the Word. They are fighting the obvious.

So according to you when jesus returns to earth, He hands teh kingdom over to His father. All the prophecies that God said He will do in the and on the earth be damned! OK then. Whatever floats your boat.

Just like you screw up understanding teh seals, trumpets and bowls, you have screwed up the word Paruosia to mean the second coming. It doesn't.

The coming of the Lord is shown to be the end of the world. There is no gap of time in-between the coming of Christ, the resurrection and the end. They all belong to the one final climactic overall event.

No they don't. but that is because you are far more woodenly literal than you would let on to.

Because you so freely rip verses out of context to misapply them, you have made your understanding of Scripture a mess.

One example alone is enough.

Revelation 20

King James Version

​

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

You absolutely demand that this firstr resurrection is referring to jesus. No one who understands grammar can come off with that because the passage is absolutely, explicitly and simply referring to those who were beheaded for not taking the mark.

It further cements that truth with verse 5- "the rest of the dead". The fact that you cannot see that is very very telling.