23 major reasons to reject the Premil doctrine!

[Spiritual Israelite]

Seven years takes place between the sixth seal and the return of Jesus in REv. 19. the wrath of God and the Lamb are experienced on earth by the trumpets and vials, not Jesus return.

This just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. If you read Revelation 6:12-17 you should see that the wrath of the Lamb is already at hand at that point. It's very obvious that Revelation 19:11-21 describes the wrath of the Lamb coming down. How in the world can there be seven years between the wrath being at hand and the wrath coming down? I'm sorry, but that is complete nonsense.

This describes one of many events of the Wrath of the Lamb and God being poured out.

Jesus does not return to Jerusalem. He returns to Petra where the forces of Antichrist have marched from the valley of Jezreel. Jesus battles the antichrist back to Jerusalem, slays him and then does His victory ascent up the Mount of Olives

You must remember that the 7th seal introduces the 7 trumpets and the 7th trumpet introduces the 7 vials. This alone should be enough for us to recognize they cannot be contemporary to each other. There are other reasons as well.

You and I disagree often also- should I ACCEPT TIMES WE DO AGREE AS RED FLAGS AS WELL?

Which is why I told WPM that depending on context and the original wording there are several last days(ages) spoken of in Scripture.

Because the construct of the term last days in Scripture is written differently which tell sus there is mopre than one understanding and the context has to tell us.

Ex. Paul saying in the last days perilous times will come-- that construct tells us it is the general undefined last days

Ez. 37-38 when Israel is brought back in the last days- the construct tells us it is in the compressed times of the last days and not the general time frame

Once again - language and context are our friends.

I don't see this as you taking things in context. I see this as you using an interpretive approach that makes any given verse or passage say whatever you want it to say. There's no consistency in your approach.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Trick question and you know it! Eschatology is a subject scattered throughout many books of the bible. We get bits and pieces here and there and it is up to us to build the puzzle correctly. YOu tend to cut the pieces to fit them as you want them through your reinterpreting Scripture

But as for the 7 years- it s main passage is Daniel 9, it is also shown in Matt. 24 and in REv. 11-13

1. Daniel 9- The antichrist makes a 7 year covenant with Israel.
2. In the midst of the 7 years he causes teh sacrifice and oblation to cease.
3. Matt. 24- Jesus warns of the AOD in the midst of the temple.
4. Thess. tells us it is the antichrist who will stand in the midst of the temple.
5. He does this in REv. after He rises from the dead and the FP orders all to worship him and take his mark.

You take unrelated bits and pieces here and there and try to force them together into one narrative. It's a convoluted mess. And what are you talking about when you talk about some antichrist rising from the dead? Only God can resurrected the dead. Why would God resurrect some antichrist?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You never give biblical definitions because your man-taught theology does not emanate from there. It comes from the Left Behind novels. You give what you have been told. If you let the Scripture speak for themselves you would realize the last days have been ongoing since Christ. They end on the last day when Jesus appears. There are no more days after the last day. Time shall be no mote then. There is no time for your imaginary 7 year trib or future thousand years.

With dispensationalism the last trumpet isn't really the last trumpet, the last day isn't really the last day, the end of the age isn't really the actual end of the age. And so on. It's unbelievable. They redefine terms constantly to keep their doctrine afloat.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If you only knew how foolish you sound and how wrong you are. Look up the original languages and see how end times is used. Because you focus more on insulting those you disagree with, I will not do the work for you.

LOL. You complain about him insulting those he disagrees with after saying "If you only knew how foolish you sound". Okay, Ronald.

 

[WPM]

With dispensationalism the last trumpet isn't really the last trumpet, the last day isn't really the last day, the end of the age isn't really the actual end of the age. And so on. It's unbelievable. They redefine terms constantly to keep their doctrine afloat.

Premil duplicates everything. Two kingdom ages, two Gospel ages, two ages of death, sin, rebellion, funerals. 2 resurrection days and 2 judgment days. There is nowhere in Scripture that talks about 2 resurrection days (plural) and 2 judgment days (plural), including Revelation 20. They invent 2 Gog/Magog wars at the end of two last days periods. They invent two "first resurrections," 2 new heavens and new earths, 2 “last days” periods. They duplicate the "last day." They have 2 bindings of Satan. They have 2 weddings of the elect (Revelation 19:7-8 and Revelation 21:2), 2 future glorifications and 2 raptures (to facilitate their millennial earth passing away 1,000 years+ after the second coming). What is next? Is anything safe from this faulty mode of interpretation?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. If you read Revelation 6:12-17 you should see that the wrath of the Lamb is already at hand at that point. It's very obvious that Revelation 19:11-21 describes the wrath of the Lamb coming down. How in the world can there be seven years between the wrath being at hand and the wrath coming down? I'm sorry, but that is complete nonsense.

It is called language and other Scriptures!

Joel 2:31

King James Version

​

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Revelation 6:12-17

King James Version

​

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So eeither you are relying on an unnamed unmentioned time fo th esun and moon or we can just trust God and let Him show us .

I don't see this as you taking things in context. I see this as you using an interpretive approach that makes any given verse or passage say whatever you want it to say. There's no consistency in your approach.

You do the same. It is how we gather the whole picture of eschatology.

You take unrelated bits and pieces here and there and try to force them together into one narrative. It's a convoluted mess. And what are you talking about when you talk about some antichrist rising from the dead? Only God can resurrected the dead. Why would God resurrect some antichrist?

You call them unrelated, but allegorists cannot see the forest for the trees. Eschatology is a forest!

LOL. You complain about him insulting those he disagrees with after saying "If you only knew how foolish you sound". Okay, Ronald.

As this was directed at someone else I will place your opinion where it belongs. But when someone spends more time hurling insults than verses- they do sound foolish.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

With dispensationalism the last trumpet isn't really the last trumpet, the last day isn't really the last day, the end of the age isn't really the actual end of the age. And so on. It's unbelievable. They redefine terms constantly to keep their doctrine afloat.

No, the seventh trumpet is not the last trumpet! Paul did not even know of the trumpets of Revelation when he wrote that! But He did know of a last trumpet in a Jewish feast that is called the "Last Trump". It is also connected to teh feast that many many theologians tell us was symbolic of the rapture.

And we know the difference between the latter days, the end times, end of the age etc. We look at the original language and see that they all have different meanings based on their construct in the original and not a single one word translation from Greek to English.

 

[WPM]

No, the seventh trumpet is not the last trumpet! Paul did not even know of the trumpets of Revelation when he wrote that! But He did know of a last trumpet in a Jewish feast that is called the "Last Trump". It is also connected to teh feast that many many theologians tell us was symbolic of the rapture.

And we know the difference between the latter days, the end times, end of the age etc. We look at the original language and see that they all have different meanings based on their construct in the original and not a single one word translation from Greek to English.

Premils cannot take Scripture literally. To do so would force them to abandon their beliefs. "First" does not mean first. "Last" does not mean last. Whatever is required to make Premil fit ultimately is the proper mean. That is ridiculous hermeneutics. That is called gerrymandering Scripture to force your private interpretation.

 

[WPM]

It is called language and other Scriptures!

Joel 2:31

King James Version

​

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Revelation 6:12-17

King James Version

​

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So eeither you are relying on an unnamed unmentioned time fo th esun and moon or we can just trust God and let Him show us .

You do the same. It is how we gather the whole picture of eschatology.


You call them unrelated, but allegorists cannot see the forest for the trees. Eschatology is a forest!

As this was directed at someone else I will place your opinion where it belongs. But when someone spends more time hurling insults than verses- they do sound foolish.

You totally avoided his enquiry - again.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, the seventh trumpet is not the last trumpet!

LOL. I didn't even say that. I do believe that, though. I said that in dispensationalism the last trumpet is not really the last trumpet. So, in what sense is the last trumpet actually the LAST trumpet in your view?

Paul did not even know of the trumpets of Revelation when he wrote that!

So what? That is irrelevant. Who inspired both Paul and John to write what they did? That is what matters.

But He did know of a last trumpet in a Jewish feast that is called the "Last Trump". It is also connected to teh feast that many many theologians tell us was symbolic of the rapture.

That many theologians tell us? This is all you have? In your view the last trumpet isn't even the last one in any sense. That is nonsense. It has to be the LAST trumpet in some sense. To me, it's obviously the last prophetic trumpet that will sound, so that makes it the same trumpet referenced in passages like 1 Thess 4:14-17 and Matthew 24:30-31 as well as the same as the seventh trumpet in Revelation.

And we know the difference between the latter days, the end times, end of the age etc. We look at the original language and see that they all have different meanings based on their construct in the original and not a single one word translation from Greek to English.

Give me a break. You are twisting scripture to make it say what you want it to say. There is no consistency or any rhyme or reason to your interpretive approach.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Premils cannot take Scripture literally. To do so would force them to abandon their beliefs. "First" does not mean first. "Last" does not mean last. Whatever is required to make Premil fit ultimately is the proper mean. That is ridiculous hermeneutics. That is called gerrymandering Scripture to force your private interpretation.

Wel you are wrong but don't let facts get in your way. Premils that are dispensationalist believe in the literal/historical/grammatical hermeneutic. That is what I have taught my hermeneutic classes for a long long time.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You totally avoided his enquiry - again.

Seems that was enough to prove the sixth seal begins the tribulation. He probably wants 20 experts, 14 interpretations and some convoluted reasoning- which does nothing.

 

[WPM]

Wel you are wrong but don't let facts get in your way. Premils that are dispensationalist believe in the literal/historical/grammatical hermeneutic. That is what I have taught my hermeneutic classes for a long long time.

Not so. You believe the opposite. Let me put your claims to the test:

• Do you believe that the first resurrection is Jesus?
• Do you believe "the last day" is actually the final day?
• Do you believe “the last trumpet” is indeed the final trumpet?

 

[WPM]

Seems that was enough to prove the sixth seal begins the tribulation. He probably wants 20 experts, 14 interpretations and some convoluted reasoning- which does nothing.

Oh, he is looking one straight answer from you, which seems impossible to get.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Not so. You believe the opposite. Let me put your claims to the test:

• Do you believe that the first resurrection is Jesus?
• Do you believe "the last day" is actually the final day?
• Do you believe “the last trumpet” is indeed the final trumpet?

1. Not he resurrection stated in the context of REv.- For that does not refer to Jesus at all. that is taking it literally.
2. Once again it depends on context. Day can and does also mean an undefined time period in Koine Greek.
3. the last trumpet of Paul was declared almost 5 decades before JOhn wrote about the 7 trumpets. Paul had no knowledge of the 7 trumpets- that is you just assuming the last trump of Paul is the same as the last trump of the seven.

You demand of the text that the 7th trumpet heralds the return of Jesus, but the book of Revelation demands differently. So you make up some cockamamie concept that the trumpets and vials are concurrent which is crazy for it would require as you do a complete rewriting of SCripture as God inspired it.

Teh last trump or tekiah gedolah is either literally or figuratively connected with the feast of trumpets. It is the 100th of 100 trumpet blasts and is called the "great trump or last trump".

Teh seventh trumpet of the trumpets is the last of the series of trumpet blasts. They are distinct from each other. The trumpet that announces the rapture is when the Lord descends into either space or the atmosphere ( I hold to the atmosphere) and the trump of God sounds and the church is caught up to be with the Lord. But that is if one takes the Word literally and compares scripture to scripture and context to context.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Oh, he is looking one straight answer from you, which seems impossible to get.

Well when He says so, then I will respond to him. but as I did not see him appoint you as his spokesperson, too bad. we have gone round and round with this on several threads and I posted over a hundred verses explaining all this that unless he had me on ignore, he could see with hisown eyes and answer with his own fingers.

 

[WPM]

1. Not he resurrection stated in the context of REv.- For that does not refer to Jesus at all. that is taking it literally.
2. Once again it depends on context. Day can and does also mean an undefined time period in Koine Greek.
3. the last trumpet of Paul was declared almost 5 decades before JOhn wrote about the 7 trumpets. Paul had no knowledge of the 7 trumpets- that is you just assuming the last trump of Paul is the same as the last trump of the seven.

You demand of the text that the 7th trumpet heralds the return of Jesus, but the book of Revelation demands differently. So you make up some cockamamie concept that the trumpets and vials are concurrent which is crazy for it would require as you do a complete rewriting of SCripture as God inspired it.

Teh last trump or tekiah gedolah is either literally or figuratively connected with the feast of trumpets. It is the 100th of 100 trumpet blasts and is called the "great trump or last trump".

Teh seventh trumpet of the trumpets is the last of the series of trumpet blasts. They are distinct from each other. The trumpet that announces the rapture is when the Lord descends into either space or the atmosphere ( I hold to the atmosphere) and the trump of God sounds and the church is caught up to be with the Lord. But that is if one takes the Word literally and compares scripture to scripture and context to context.

LOL. I rest my case. You twist the inspired text to fit your false teaching. You refuse to take it literally and in a straight forward manner. This exposes the error of your theology. This is why so many are abandoning your error.

 

[WPM]

Well when He says so, then I will respond to him. but as I did not see him appoint you as his spokesperson, too bad. we have gone round and round with this on several threads and I posted over a hundred verses explaining all this that unless he had me on ignore, he could see with hisown eyes and answer with his own fingers.

No, you have ducked Scripture after Scripture, post after post, and argument. That is because you have no answer. Avoidance is your MO.

 

[Timtofly]

I showed you the evidence. Fight with it if you wish.

Ditto.

 

[Timtofly]

Answer my point. Stop your avoidance.

The facts that Premils are now forced to tell lies about Amil to rebut that truth is testimony to how watertight the Amil position is. The fact is you know: Amils believe the Day of the Lord is future, final and climactic. You have simply no answer to that. So, you have to invent your own misrepresentations to attack Amil.

You claimed I was becoming Amil.

Was that a lie, or a false accusation?

You got my answer to your accusation that premil only attack with no substance. Was that post an attack?

How is continuously pointing out other poster's posting style, refuting their points? Seems you avoid serious conversation as much as you accuse other posters of the same. Amil don't seem to lie on purpose unless they all do. Because usually it is the biggest offender who complains the most.

The Day of the Lord is 1,000 years in length. Saying anything else would be a lie against God's Word. Neither a Day nor a Millennium have fudgeable definitions. Now explain to me how many times Day is used symbolically compared to the word Millennium being used symbolically.

1,000 years is final and a huge solid chunk of time to declare Adam's 6,000 years of punishment over. Now 1,000 years is shorter in length than 6,000 years. But all 1,000 years will be thoroughly enjoyed. 24 hours of victory seems a bit wimpy, no? I will place my 1,000 years over your so called solid watertight "24 hours" in any creation God has planned.