Instruction in righteousness

[Ronald David Bruno]

At times you sound arrogant and full of self-righteous hubris. You call yourself an 'overseer' by some kind of self-appointment and you position yourself in this way above others, whom you then deride as not being somehow as enlightened as you are.

Enlightened people don't talk about how enlightened they are. They just don't. They just are.

Yes, lots of folks around here sound like that. I do sometimes. It's pride, the ego of the old self that is not yet really dead. Our old self in one sense traveled back in time and was put on the cross with Christ and died. Spiritually we are sanctified. But our flesh still peeps it's ugly head up now and then as if saying, "Hi, remember me, I'm still here ... not really dead yet ... let's have some fun - for old time sake!" We are to render our old self dead.
This is the same struggle Paul was confounded with, doing things he didn't want to do ... his flesh warring against his spirit ... " ... it is not I, but sin that dwells in me'.
I often think of Luke 18:11-12 when I hear people criticizing "most Christians out there who don't have the understanding and purity that they do ... who say, Oh, Lord when will THEY see the light?"
I say that about Non-Trinitarians and Amillennialists. I don't really pray to God and thank Him that I am not like them though, that would be too arrogant.

 

[Episkopos]

A couple of things. It's increasingly clear that you don't want discussion. You only want agreement. You strive for the little thumbs up and it grates on your soul when anyone brings a perspective that doesn't harmonize with your twistings. To be your friend, or to even dialogue with you, one must dance YOUR dance?

We are speaking about truth, here. Maybe you are more used to coming up with something that your creative mind can engage in. Do I have to give up my testimony and all the Lord has guided me into to be your friend? Using a musical analogy, do I have to pretend I can't play my instrument to not make you feel you are missing something? And this is what it is about. You are missing something, but your pride will not allow you to take anything in...at least not unless you can "save face" and make it appear we have both benefited in equal measure. That is the difficulty of dealing with people who want to think they know things written about in the bible, but have no actual spiritual experience to draw upon. Is it wrong to relate things to other believers....true things...in the fear that they might take offense? Or do you judge anything outside your experience and understanding as being patently false?

You marginalize yourself and negate the things you harp on concerning humility and ego.

You are doing the very thing you accuse me of. Am I wrong because you don't believe what I say is possible? Stop filtering everything through your ego and you won't see ego everywhere.

I know you know how to use the quote feature. You use it when quoting anyone willing to blow smoke up your robe. But then, you suddenly forget how it works when quoting someone who disagrees-- wouldn't want the system to send them a notification that they are being quoted? You would much rather counter and posture and pontificate, rather than have an actual discussion. This too, puts your inflated ego on full display.

I'll address your points, but this had to be said. You are disingenuous and discourteous with this practice.

That's a judgment call on your part. I usually ignore unedifying posts that are obviously made from an inflated religious ego. See, you will disagree with me on this...until you cross over into a place where self is seen as non-beneficial. The flesh profits nothing. Everything we say is being recorded for a future evaluation on judgment day.

Why extend your own judgments? Why is it important to follow me around and say the things you do? I ask that you look at yourself...and what motivates you. There is freedom from self-interest in a full surrender to Christ.

 

[marks]

That is the difficulty of dealing with people who want to think they know things written about in the bible, but have no actual spiritual experience to draw upon. Is it wrong to relate things to other believers....true things...in the fear that they might take offense? Or do you judge anything outside your experience and understanding as being patently false?

When taking our perceptions and understandings of our experiences into interpretting Scripture, I still urge to stay on the side of what the Bible itself teaches, using that to interpret our experiences, and not the other way.

When someone points to Scripture which - appears - to speak contrary to you, is it proper to ascribe their challenge to some 'feeling of offense'? Is it proper to assume that no one else but you has any "actual spiritual experience to draw on"?

The challenges being made to your understandings are not being offered on the basis of "But I've never had this experience", they are offered on the basis of "the Bible teaches me otherwise". I think you would do better to answer with Scriptures.

Even Peter, writing about his witness of Jesus transfigured, and the voice from the cloud - an amazing experience - yet still wrote, we have a more sure word of prophecy. Even Peter considered the Scripture more foundational than his experience.

Seriously though I believe it's a mistake to assume no one else has experiential knowledge of God.

Much love!

 

[Lizbeth]

Not at all. I see the Old Man as one that is "undisturbed" by the light of God at regeneration. We go from darkness to light in an INITIAL grace. We go from Romans 6 to Romans 7 in this way. Yet there is still the sin factory to deal with. To go from Romans 7 to 8 requires the operation of God that crucifies the flesh nature of the outer man to empower the inner man into the walk that is in Christ...in the POWER of HIS resurrection.

Brother, since we see through a glass darkly our understanding is always subject to being tweeked, corrected or being finer-tuned by the Lord as He nudges us along the narrow path.......but I’m not seeing any of this as an either-or thing. I consider that we need to acknowledge BOTH what Jesus has already accomplished in the heavenly spiritual realm, as well as how things are manifesting in the earthly realm of the flesh.

Many have some sins that automatically slough off and disappear when they come to faith. The old man being undisturbed may only be true to some degree (everyone with his own measure of grace initially) from an earthly point of view, but from heaven's point of view that old man is dead and crucified….”it is finished”. Just that the devil (spirit of the world) that resides in our old man, being disobedient, didn't get the memo and continues to try to 'live' and work, illegally. ("No longer I who sin but sin living in me.")

And now we're in a process of enforcing Christ's rule....enforcing, so to speak, the victory that Jesus already DID win at the cross....our old man being nailed to the cross with Him already. We are battling what manifests on earth from a position of victory that has already been won, so to speak. That victory is why we have authority to trample snakes and scorpions and why we are no longer under the dominion of sin. Even if some are not walking in that fully yet (earthly), it doesn't nullify the victory that Jesus has accomplished (heavenly). We are to pray and fight the good fight of FAITH, that God's will be done on earth, as it has already been accomplished in the heavenly realm.

 

[Mr E]

We are speaking about truth, here. Maybe you are more used to coming up with something that your creative mind can engage in. Do I have to give up my testimony and all the Lord has guided me into to be your friend? Using a musical analogy, do I have to pretend I can't play my instrument to not make you feel you are missing something? And this is what it is about. You are missing something, but your pride will not allow you to take anything in...at least not unless you can "save face" and make it appear we have both benefited in equal measure. That is the difficulty of dealing with people who want to think they know things written about in the bible, but have no actual spiritual experience to draw upon. Is it wrong to relate things to other believers....true things...in the fear that they might take offense? Or do you judge anything outside your experience and understanding as being patently false?

Now that (bolded above) is funny. Completely arrogant, but funny nonetheless. You are SO spiritual, that you have to dumb it all down for the rest of us I guess. A spiritual virtuoso, oh so virtuous. Do you know the biggest difference between my spiritual experience and yours? I don't brag about mine. I don't belittle the people that haven't got what I've got. That's pride John.

You are doing the very thing you accuse me of. Am I wrong because you don't believe what I say is possible? Stop filtering everything through your ego and you won't see ego everywhere.

Never being able to accept criticism is a deep character flaw. It's more hubris and the typical fleshy reaction is to lash out against anyone who would dare point at it, is to point back at them like a child in an attempt to deflect away from yourself and back at them. It's a sure sign of immaturity. Go back to Guru school-- it's lesson one.

That's a judgment call on your part. I usually ignore unedifying posts that are obviously made from an inflated religious ego. See, you will disagree with me on this...until you cross over into a place where self is seen as non-beneficial. The flesh profits nothing. Everything we say is being recorded for a future evaluation on judgment day.

Why extend your own judgments? Why is it important to follow me around and say the things you do? I ask that you look at yourself...and what motivates you. There is freedom from self-interest in a full surrender to Christ.

Oh I would love it if you would put me on ignore. I'm drawn to your posts because you so forcefully and so often express ideas that counter scripture. I address those points because it's important that people not be deceived by fine-sounding ideas that are not at all sound.

I don't think that you have even a most basic grasp of spiritual principles, yet you promote yourself as being on some higher plane that exists in your mind based upon a 15 second experience you had thirty years ago. You haven't 'put your flesh beneath your feet' -it's still very much in front of your nose, if only you would glance at a mirror now and then.

 

[Mr E]

And now we're in a process of enforcing Christ's rule....enforcing, so to speak, the victory that Jesus already DID win at the cross....our old man being nailed to the cross with Him already. We are battling what manifests on earth from a position of victory that has already been won, so to speak. That victory is why we have authority to trample snakes and scorpions and why we are no longer under the dominion of sin. Even if some are not walking in that fully yet (earthly), it doesn't nullify the victory that Jesus has accomplished (heavenly). We are to pray and fight the good fight of FAITH, that God's will be done on earth, as it has already been accomplished in the heavenly realm.

It's a great point. Jesus triumphed over the flesh. It's not an idea. It's not a concept. He actually triumphed over death. Over the grave.

He didn't wake up one morning after some sort of vision and based on that experience decide that he was on some higher plane, while still going to work each day. He lay dead three days, and then was raised to life eternal. THAT is the promise that we place our faith in. That after the flesh dies, we are raised like him and with him, not experientially... actually. The victory belongs to Jesus, not yet to us. He paid the price for us-- it isn't left for us to do for ourselves rather his life and his blood were the earnest money paid with the promise that we will be fully ransomed when we die.

Again, it's not psychological. Jesus was talking about physical death. John would have you believe that the cross is a trophy, rather than an instrument of death. The Romans and those Jews would have considered it a tropaion of sorts, and in the greater sense Jesus made a mockery of it.

 

[Episkopos]

When taking our perceptions and understandings of our experiences into interpretting Scripture, I still urge to stay on the side of what the Bible itself teaches, using that to interpret our experiences, and not the other way.

Of course. As long as you keep in mind that Paul was human as we are...and he was speaking of HIS experiences with the Lord...which informed his understanding of the scriptures. Paul didn't just invent religious formulas that are unattached to what's available to us even now by faith.

When someone points to Scripture which - appears - to speak contrary to you, is it proper to ascribe their challenge to some 'feeling of offense'? Is it proper to assume that no one else but you has any "actual spiritual experience to draw on"?

I get charged with being a false teacher etc....instead of being proven wrong by the bible. And the bible is not always understood in the context of the whole counsel of God. The OT backs up the NT.

I use both testaments as vectors to show what the specific doctrine is pointing to. Most or all my detractors rely on a misreading of Paul....that Peter warns us against. And people are happy to read Paul out of context....but ONLY Paul.

The challenges being made to your understandings are not being offered on the basis of "But I've never had this experience", they are offered on the basis of "the Bible teaches me otherwise". I think you would do better to answer with Scriptures.

I only ever use bible verses to confirm and relate biblical truth. Never my experiences. But this doesn't deny the fact that what is spoken of in the bible can be fully experienced in our daily lives. I think that's where people's faith breaks down. A lot of theory...no reality.

Even Peter, writing about his witness of Jesus transfigured, and the voice from the cloud - an amazing experience - yet still wrote, we have a more sure word of prophecy. Even Peter considered the Scripture more foundational than his experience.

Of course. The words from God are a guide...the law....that shows us whether our experience is from Him or not.

Seriously though I believe it's a mistake to assume no one else has experiential knowledge of God.

One can tell very quickly when someone is merely indoctrinated into their beliefs...or have tasted the power of the life to come. In your estimation...do people from every sect known to man, divide from each other based on a common experience with God?

 

[Episkopos]

Brother, since we see through a glass darkly our understanding is always subject to being tweeked, corrected or being finer-tuned by the Lord as He nudges us along the narrow path.......but I’m not seeing any of this as an either-or thing. I consider that we need to acknowledge BOTH what Jesus has already accomplished in the heavenly spiritual realm, as well as how things are manifesting in the earthly realm of the flesh.

Tweeking? Maybe at some point. But many need more than that. We have access to the full measure of grace right now. But the cost is high. So costly, in fact, that the rich (like us) have the most terrible time to attain it. We have too much to lose, it seems.

Paul say...always learning (tweaking)but never coming to the knowledge of the truth (the big jump into resurrection life).

It's about scale. What are we improving into? More religious flesh? Or a maturity of having walked with God?

Have we been permitted the jump into the higher walk whereby we may inherit glory and rulership with Christ in the next age? Or, are we still denying the power of grace for an incremental growth in knowledge ABOUT God.

Many have some sins that automatically slough off and disappear when they come to faith. The old man being undisturbed may only be true to some degree (everyone with his own measure of grace initially) from an earthly point of view, but from heaven's point of view that old man is dead and crucified….”it is finished”. Just that the devil (spirit of the world) that resides in our old man, being disobedient, didn't get the memo and continues to try to 'live' and work, illegally. ("No longer I who sin but sin living in me.")

The Old Man is dead in every believer who has been regenerated. We become part of spiritual Israel through regeneration. But we are just as liable to be cut off as natural Israel was. Paul says it in Romans 11.

To move from Romans 7 into Romans 8 we need to be crucified in the outer man...to let the inner man walk in the Spirit.

And now we're in a process of enforcing Christ's rule....enforcing, so to speak, the victory that Jesus already DID win at the cross....our old man being nailed to the cross with Him already. We are battling what manifests on earth from a position of victory that has already been won, so to speak.

Good luck trying to enforce what God already did. Most believers know nothing of victory and claim all. The victory is in Christ.

Sister, I'm hearing religious gobbledi-gook. Jesus won, but He didn't win because we sin...and WE have to enforce His win? Victory through religious obstinence? ...etc.

It's very simple. Our victory and perfection are already IN Him. But it costs us too much (for us rich folk) to apprehend that victory. Instead we rail in the flesh about what God did without any sense of reality that we are living in darkness and defeat. What can be done to convert believers?

No one wants to see themselves as poor Laodiceans...who see themselves as something they are not. The truth is...as we see our true condition we repent. So then those who claim NOT to be Laodiceans are such. And those who know they are Laodiceans...are no longer such.

That victory is why we have authority to trample snakes and scorpions and why we are no longer under the dominion of sin. Even if some are not walking in that fully yet (earthly), it doesn't nullify the victory that Jesus has accomplished (heavenly). We are to pray and fight the good fight of FAITH, that God's will be done on earth, as it has already been accomplished in the heavenly realm.

Our lack of faith doesn't negate the victory of Christ. The issue is how that victory becomes our own.

Again, always learning, but never coming to the knowledge of the truth.

The "name it claim it" crowd don't see that it is their own outer man in the way of victory. They will try every gymnastic attempt but NOT fully surrender in humility to God to be empowered from above.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

How DARE you tell the truth! It’s soooo arrogant to tell the truth!
We are seeing that play out right now on a stupendous and worldwide scale.

The fact that it’s come to the point where it’s worldwide and seen everywhere all at once (the firing, cancelling, deplatforming, for daring to tell the truth or even to just question the wisdom of something) makes me think…well, I mean…has half the world (and every single government) EVER begun to walk in such lockstep before…? So, you just sort of peer closely at it and keep asking what it MEANS.

And it’s been happening in here too, of course.

 

[Episkopos]

Now that (bolded above) is funny. Completely arrogant, but funny nonetheless. You are SO spiritual, that you have to dumb it all down for the rest of us I guess. A spiritual virtuoso, oh so virtuous. Do you know the biggest difference between my spiritual experience and yours? I don't brag about mine. I don't belittle the people that haven't got what I've got. That's pride John.

I have tried to explain things to you in many ways...but the pride is so strong in you that you react. You don't brag about yours?....that is itself a brag. I speak only to help others grasp difficult truths. I don't know how aware you are of your own condition. I certainly don't come here for an ego boost. Check your own motives and stop trying to judge mine. All I'm trying to do is help others realize their own potential in Christ. Many here see that. And this really bothers you...as if...there is no such thing as ministering to others...it's ALL pride!

Oh I would love it if you would put me on ignore. I'm drawn to your posts because you so forcefully and so often express ideas that counter scripture. I address those points because it's important that people not be deceived by fine-sounding ideas that are not at all sound.

At one point one must counter lies or else it may seem there is a point to them. But you make these threads about you and your self-love. See, I have to say it, because your heart is overflowing with what is hidden inside. And for clarity sake, it has to be pointed out. You should put me on ignore...or go to other's posts. You attack what you can't control...but you can control where you go...for now.

I don't think that you have even a most basic grasp of spiritual principles, yet you promote yourself as being on some higher plane that exists in your mind based upon a 15 second experience you had thirty years ago. You haven't 'put your flesh beneath your feet' -it's still very much in front of your nose, if only you would glance at a mirror now and then.

This is not about me...it's about you and how what I say makes you feel. And you have not the slightest idea of who I am and what I am. So then judge away. I am completely unaffected by what the flesh has to say. Of course it will rail. Otherwise it wouldn't be the flesh.

 

[Mr E]

I have tried to explain things to you in many ways...but the pride is so strong in you that you react. You don't brag about yours?....that is itself a brag. I speak only to help others grasp difficult truths. I don't know how aware you are of your own condition. I certainly don't come here for an ego boost. Check your own motives and stop trying to judge mine. All I'm trying to do is help others realize their own potential in Christ. Many here see that. And this really bothers you...as if...there is no such thing as ministering to others...it's ALL pride!









At one point one must counter lies or else it may seem there is a point to them. But you make these threads about you and your self-love. See, I have to say it, because your heart is overflowing with what is hidden inside. And for clarity sake, it has to be pointed out. You should put me on ignore...or go to other's posts. You attack what you can't control...but you can control where you go...for now.



This is not about me...it's about you and how what I say makes you feel. And you have not the slightest idea of who I am and what I am. So then judge away. I am completely unaffected by what the flesh has to say. Of course it will rail. Otherwise it wouldn't be the flesh.

Enjoy! Your self.

 

[Keturah]

Basically, it's us who need to surrender or, empty ourselves so we can choose to give Him everything and He will strengthen us or, give us a way out of temptation so we sin less and less as He shows us...ourselves. All in relation to how much we are willing to let go. JM2C

I'll raise your 2 cents and give you the whole $ with this big amen!

 

[Keturah]

I don't listen to false speakers nor their false message, PTL for ignore by MY choices.

Some folks are in desperate need of a DO OVER.....TO FOLLOW JESUS and NOT MAN!

Study the word with prayer and LEAN, LISTEN, WAIT, FOR THE SPIRIT'S DIRECTION.

Leaning on the arm of flesh is to be guided to the broad way. Be not blind by your choice or the persuasive of ANY MAN!

FOLLOW THE SPIRIT, AND SEE YOU @ THE THRONE OF GOD,FOLKS.

 

[Lizbeth]

Tweeking? Maybe at some point. But many need more than that. We have access to the full measure of grace right now. But the cost is high. So costly, in fact, that the rich (like us) have the most terrible time to attain it. We have too much to lose, it seems.

Paul say...always learning (tweaking)but never coming to the knowledge of the truth (the big jump into resurrection life).

It's about scale. What are we improving into? More religious flesh? Or a maturity of having walked with God?

Have we been permitted the jump into the higher walk whereby we may inherit glory and rulership with Christ in the next age? Or, are we still denying the power of grace for an incremental growth in knowledge ABOUT God.


The Old Man is dead in every believer who has been regenerated. We become part of spiritual Israel through regeneration. But we are just as liable to be cut off as natural Israel was. Paul says it in Romans 11.

To move from Romans 7 into Romans 8 we need to be crucified in the outer man...to let the inner man walk in the Spirit.



Good luck trying to enforce what God already did. Most believers know nothing of victory and claim all. The victory is in Christ.

Sister, I'm hearing religious gobbledi-gook. Jesus won, but He didn't win because we sin...and WE have to enforce His win? Victory through religious obstinence? ...etc.

It's very simple. Our victory and perfection are already IN Him. But it costs us too much (for us rich folk) to apprehend that victory. Instead we rail in the flesh about what God did without any sense of reality that we are living in darkness and defeat. What can be done to convert believers?

No one wants to see themselves as poor Laodiceans...who see themselves as something they are not. The truth is...as we see our true condition we repent. So then those who claim NOT to be Laodiceans are such. And those who know they are Laodiceans...are no longer such.


Our lack of faith doesn't negate the victory of Christ. The issue is how that victory becomes our own.

Again, always learning, but never coming to the knowledge of the truth.

The "name it claim it" crowd don't see that it is their own outer man in the way of victory. They will try every gymnastic attempt but NOT fully surrender in humility to God to be empowered from above.

Well, I see it this way - whenever a soul is saved, a person is healed or delivered from demons, or the dead are raised, or someone overcomes in any area, etc.......we are enforcing the rule of Christ and ruling with Him. "All authority on heaven and earth has been given to Me." "Behold I give you authority...." "Nay in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us."

Growth is a very prevalent theme in the scriptures. And the bible says do not despise the day of small beginnings. The writer of Hebrews says to move on from the foundational things in order to go on to perfection. He didn't say to dig up the foundation and discard it.

But if we just keep milling around the foundation our entire lives instead of growing and building upon it, we'll grow stagnant and 'spoiled' as it were. Growth is a sign of life. No growth is the opposite. In the wilderness God kept the Israelites moving on towards the goal, He didn't let them get too comfortable and camp out in any one spot for long. People in the churches don't tend to grow.....structure and clergy/laity schism is part of the reason instead of all members of the body functioning together....and uncrucified flesh is the cause of that. I spent nearly 15 years in the churches and didn't really begin to grow or see much reality of the truth until after the Lord led me out of them. I began to learn that everything comes through the cross we carry for the Lord...healing, understanding, growth deliverance, etc.

Suffering is an absolutely necessary ingredient for growing in the Lord and putting down the flesh, which many don't seem to have experienced much of in recent times of economic prosperity. But then again the bible says if you are without chastening you are illegitimate children and not sons. So maybe many that are 'at ease in Zion' are not His to begin with really, I don't know. But also some are choosing to do their own will instead of God's will, as that is one way of avoiding suffering....maybe that means they are choosing not to be sons in a way.

Anyhow i have been hearing a tiny bit more being spoken about suffering and the cross lately, so maybe it's a little sign of hope and life in the midst of the difficulties that have begun in the west. (Just as long as those preachers don't put themselves on pedestals and try to make out they are the inventors and owners of these truths, as if it's just another 'spiritual trend', when what they need to do is repent in dust and ashes for not having taught and preached about the cross and narrow path all along!)

 

[Episkopos]

Well, I see it this way - whenever a soul is saved, a person is healed or delivered from demons, or the dead are raised, or someone overcomes in any area, etc.......we are enforcing the rule of Christ and ruling with Him. "All authority on heaven and earth has been given to Me." "Behold I give you authority...." "Nay in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us."

Growth is a very prevalent theme in the scriptures. And the bible says do not despise the day of small beginnings. The writer of Hebrews says to move on from the foundational things in order to go on to perfection. He didn't say to dig up the foundation and discard it.

I see how you are seeing this.... but you have my purpose wrong. I see a future judgment and rejection coming on the church of our time. But the wheat and tares must grow together. What I am seeking to avoid are so many losses in the wilderness part of the walk. I expect this to be controversial...as most believers think that all is fine and the outcome assured. But salvation takes on different outcomes.

It takes a sober mind to realize that we are not better than the Jews....who clearly failed as a people. We are no better. We won't listen to correction, warnings or exhortations...for the most part. The fact that you have added your voice to the dissenters is unfortunate as I thought that your own pursuits had informed you to the crisis at hand in the church.

A foundation is good if we build on it. But just relying on the foundation is what sees people burying their talent. People need to be exhorted to take stock of their true situation...and not think they are rich and in need of nothing. Many will lose everything..and be very angry about it. Why didn't more people warn us!!! I don't want to hold back the truth that can help people avoid the pitfalls of having an initial grace and doing nothing with it.

But if we just keep milling around the foundation our entire lives instead of growing and building upon it, we'll grow stagnant and 'spoiled' as it were. Growth is a sign of life. No growth is the opposite. In the wilderness God kept the Israelites moving on towards the goal, He didn't let them get too comfortable and camp out in any one spot for long. People in the churches don't tend to grow.....structure and clergy/laity schism is part of the reason instead of all members of the body functioning together....and uncrucified flesh is the cause of that. I spent nearly 15 years in the churches and didn't really begin to grow or see much reality of the truth until after the Lord led me out of them. I began to learn that everything comes through the cross we carry for the Lord...healing, understanding, growth deliverance, etc.

Suffering is an absolutely necessary ingredient for growing in the Lord and putting down the flesh, which many don't seem to have experienced much of in recent times of economic prosperity. But then again the bible says if you are without chastening you are illegitimate children and not sons. So maybe many that are 'at ease in Zion' are not His to begin with really, I don't know. But also some are choosing to do their own will instead of God's will, as that is one way of avoiding suffering....maybe that means they are choosing not to be sons in a way.

Anyhow i have been hearing a tiny bit more being spoken about suffering and the cross lately, so maybe it's a little sign of hope and life in the midst of the difficulties that have begun in the west. (Just as long as those preachers don't put themselves on pedestals and try to make out they are the inventors and owners of these truths, as if it's just another 'spiritual trend', when what they need to do is repent in dust and ashes for not having taught and preached about the cross and narrow path all along!)

What I don't think you are fully appreciating is that it is the error in doctrines that lull people to sleep. It's not as if the warnings were hidden in fine print. They are just as legible as the promises attached to those who are faithful in what they have been given

Some people will get through in spite of the bad doctrines. But many more will be tripped up by them. There will be those who are declared righteous...yes....but many more who are rejected from the kingdom into outer darkness, because they took the grace of God selfishly rather than move on into the crucified life.

Do you understand what is means that "grace is deceitful" ??? Does that take away from God's intentions....yes. Grace is meant as a taste of greater things to come. And when we surrender ourselves FULLY to God...we get the full measure of grace to walk like Jesus walked.

 

[marks]

Well, I see it this way - whenever a soul is saved, a person is healed or delivered from demons, or the dead are raised, or someone overcomes in any area, etc.......we are enforcing the rule of Christ and ruling with Him. "All authority on heaven and earth has been given to Me." "Behold I give you authority...." "Nay in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us."

Growth is a very prevalent theme in the scriptures. And the bible says do not despise the day of small beginnings. The writer of Hebrews says to move on from the foundational things in order to go on to perfection. He didn't say to dig up the foundation and discard it.

But if we just keep milling around the foundation our entire lives instead of growing and building upon it, we'll grow stagnant and 'spoiled' as it were. Growth is a sign of life. No growth is the opposite. In the wilderness God kept the Israelites moving on towards the goal, He didn't let them get too comfortable and camp out in any one spot for long. People in the churches don't tend to grow.....structure and clergy/laity schism is part of the reason instead of all members of the body functioning together....and uncrucified flesh is the cause of that. I spent nearly 15 years in the churches and didn't really begin to grow or see much reality of the truth until after the Lord led me out of them. I began to learn that everything comes through the cross we carry for the Lord...healing, understanding, growth deliverance, etc.

Suffering is an absolutely necessary ingredient for growing in the Lord and putting down the flesh, which many don't seem to have experienced much of in recent times of economic prosperity. But then again the bible says if you are without chastening you are illegitimate children and not sons. So maybe many that are 'at ease in Zion' are not His to begin with really, I don't know. But also some are choosing to do their own will instead of God's will, as that is one way of avoiding suffering....maybe that means they are choosing not to be sons in a way.

Anyhow i have been hearing a tiny bit more being spoken about suffering and the cross lately, so maybe it's a little sign of hope and life in the midst of the difficulties that have begun in the west. (Just as long as those preachers don't put themselves on pedestals and try to make out they are the inventors and owners of these truths, as if it's just another 'spiritual trend', when what they need to do is repent in dust and ashes for not having taught and preached about the cross and narrow path all along!)

I can attest that there are still churches out there with pastors who will preach on these things. Even before the current distresses. Even when we are in prosperous times (so called) God still let's suffering into our lives, I can attest to that also!

Much love!

 

[Keturah]

Well, I see it this way - whenever a soul is saved, a person is healed or delivered from demons, or the dead are raised, or someone overcomes in any area, etc.......we are enforcing the rule of Christ and ruling with Him. "All authority on heaven and earth has been given to Me." "Behold I give you authority...." "Nay in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us."

Growth is a very prevalent theme in the scriptures. And the bible says do not despise the day of small beginnings. The writer of Hebrews says to move on from the foundational things in order to go on to perfection. He didn't say to dig up the foundation and discard it.

But if we just keep milling around the foundation our entire lives instead of growing and building upon it, we'll grow stagnant and 'spoiled' as it were. Growth is a sign of life. No growth is the opposite. In the wilderness God kept the Israelites moving on towards the goal, He didn't let them get too comfortable and camp out in any one spot for long. People in the churches don't tend to grow.....structure and clergy/laity schism is part of the reason instead of all members of the body functioning together....and uncrucified flesh is the cause of that. I spent nearly 15 years in the churches and didn't really begin to grow or see much reality of the truth until after the Lord led me out of them. I began to learn that everything comes through the cross we carry for the Lord...healing, understanding, growth deliverance, etc.

Suffering is an absolutely necessary ingredient for growing in the Lord and putting down the flesh, which many don't seem to have experienced much of in recent times of economic prosperity. But then again the bible says if you are without chastening you are illegitimate children and not sons. So maybe many that are 'at ease in Zion' are not His to begin with really, I don't know. But also some are choosing to do their own will instead of God's will, as that is one way of avoiding suffering....maybe that means they are choosing not to be sons in a way.

Anyhow i have been hearing a tiny bit more being spoken about suffering and the cross lately, so maybe it's a little sign of hope and life in the midst of the difficulties that have begun in the west. (Just as long as those preachers don't put themselves on pedestals and try to make out they are the inventors and owners of these truths, as if it's just another 'spiritual trend', when what they need to do is repent in dust and ashes for not having taught and preached about the cross and narrow path all along!)

Amen !

 

[Mr E]

Well, I see it this way - whenever a soul is saved, a person is healed or delivered from demons, or the dead are raised, or someone overcomes in any area, etc.......we are enforcing the rule of Christ and ruling with Him. "All authority on heaven and earth has been given to Me." "Behold I give you authority...." "Nay in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us."

This is a good perspective to have in mind-- it's a vision of him on the throne in that kingdom within. That's the spiritual perspective, and those who belong to him are part of that kingdom of priests, serving his God and Father-- not as some elevated, puffed up position, but as he did-- humble servanthood. And in spirit we serve in truth, even as on earth- we are mostly unaware of our role, yet we are his body- his hands and feet. We are his body, his temple, his church.

And that's the crux of the problem I have with this idea, turned philosophy, turned doctrine.... it's not that we 'become' the inner man. That we somehow put off the old man and become the inner man. It's a matter of Lordship. Our inner spirit submits to the Christ who is already in us and we in him. It's already done. It's not some mish-mash progressive process. It's accomplished. It is done. We were bought for a price, paid in blood.

 

[Keturah]

All the instructions in righteousness are found only in God's word by his Spirit.
Let us not forget folks that we have NOT arrived as yet but are still a work in progress.

 

[amigo de christo]

All the instructions in righteousness are found only in God's word by his Spirit.
Let us not forget folks that we have NOT arrived as yet but are still a work in progress.