Instruction in righteousness

[Episkopos]

Sorry, but we are in Adam as long as we are alive. We are on 'this' side of the Jordan all our days. You've created a false narrative where you imagine that you are no longer a part of humanity, suddenly on a higher path. That's not spirituality, it's imagination. If you think that your flesh was translated miraculously into this higher walk, into the Promised Land, into Zion and that those places are earthly, you've missed it every bit as badly as those Israelites. It's not magical.

That seed that @Lizbeth is talking about is not the life. The Life is IN the seed. The seed is a covering for it. And you are the seed that becomes a fruit bearing tree if and only if that tree matures and ONLY if that Life remains in you. The Life came from above and descended, you didn't ascend to it on some higher progressive path. It was given to you.

You've twisted things, and turned faith from an exercise program into some sort of miracle grow --Free samples! Buy the rest!

No. I don't buy it.

An unbroken seed doesn't bear fruit. We are to be FOUND in Christ....no longer walking as a common man.

Phil. 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Ironically, you have touched on the idea of being in Christ in order to be covered by His righteousness...walking as Jesus walked. So many claim to have this and more while still walking according to the flesh. A sinful holiness? Never. In Him is no sin.

 

[Mr E]

Subject yourselves to one another in the fear of Christ. For flesh and blood are not our enemy.
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. They do not want us to subject ourselves one to another because they do not want us to walk in that kind of power that defeats them and that sees what we agree on and ask for being made manifest.

Absolutely. People are guided, whether they realize it or not. They are prompted, compelled, led..... by the powers that be. -and those powers are not earthly. That's the point I've been emphasizing. We don't ascend some higher path to walk in that realm. That realm exists in us.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Amen. And a tree only really produces fruit when it is mature enough. As long as people ARE growing and straining for what lies ahead. The problem that I understand Episkopos is addressing is where many in the church have become complacent...resting on their laurels instead of growing. Camping out on the shore of the Red Sea instead of trying to get into the Promised Land. That is the lukewarmness that Jesus said would cause Him to spit those out of His body....thinking they are rich and have need of nothing. I can see what Epi is talking about with that. Taking salvation for granted like the 9 lepers. They need the harder-to-digest meat of the word to provoke and prod them onward to the goal, and that is what many churches are completely neglecting. They are only willing to hear the warm and fuzzy, easy-to-hear side of things. Fine for babes, newer believers who are just getting established in their faith....but that becomes a dangerous place to just sit and comfortably camp out in indefinitely for those who "by now ought to be" growing up and able to bear the less comfortable truths.

I think at bottom, as far as I can tell, we've all got the same end goal in mind in this conversation, even though we differ in some of the details. Ironing sharpening iron.

the problem with what Epi is saying is that he is saying those people will not be saved. Hence he is placing the onus of one saving themselves on how they act here on earth. basically putting a person back under the law.

I was a prodigal son. I left the church due to some things my ex wife did and the churches response.. I would be one of those people epi would say was lost and not saved at that time. That is far from the truth. I was still my fathers child.. I can not unborn my self any more than I can give birth tomyself

It is God who made me born again through his sons blood I can not unbirth myself or remove the blood of his son.

I can live like the people he speaks of. and I will suffer dealy through it. I will not only be chastened by God (And I know I have felt this, it is what brought me back to him) or I can prove I am illegitiment and not a true child. while there is no chastening..

but I can not lose salvation like Epi is trying to say. there are no multiple parts of being saved eternally. There are multiple levels of maturity after one is saved. and we will all be glorified. but there is not different aspects of salvation.

Epi has what we call a feel good works based gospel. It sounds good and it feels good. because it says those who return to sin or who commit certain sins can not be saved..

salvation is not dependent on that. We need to be saved because we have missed the mark. and are cursed by the curse that jesus took on the cross. It is his death an our faith in that death and promise which saves us.

He who believes is NOT CONDEMNED

he who does not believe is condemned already..


Epi and those like him would say Jesus said he who believes is not condemned, as long as they (insert whatever requirement they say must be met to keep saved)

thats a different gospel.. not from God. Jesus did not say belief plus. He said whoever ocmes to the point of belief will never die.

Is our faith in that promise, or in how good we are?

 

[Mr E]

An unbroken seed doesn't bear fruit. We are to be FOUND in Christ....no longer walking as a common man.

Phil. 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Ironically, you have touched on the idea of being in Christ in order to be covered by His righteousness...walking as Jesus walked. So many claim to have this and more while still walking according to the flesh. A sinful holiness? Never. In Him is no sin.

YES! Unless a seed falls to the ground and dies......!

 

[Keturah]

Sorry, but we are in Adam as long as we are alive. We are on 'this' side of the Jordan all our days. You've created a false narrative where you imagine that you are no longer a part of humanity, suddenly on a higher path. That's not spirituality, it's imagination. If you think that your flesh was translated miraculously into this higher walk, into the Promised Land, into Zion and that those places are earthly, you've missed it every bit as badly as those Israelites. It's not magical.

That seed that @Lizbeth is talking about is not the life. The Life is IN the seed. The seed is a covering for it. And you are the seed that becomes a fruit bearing tree if and only if that tree matures and ONLY if that Life remains in you. The Life came from above and descended, you didn't ascend to it on some higher progressive path. It was given to you.

You've twisted things, and turned faith from an exercise program into some sort of miracle grow --Free samples! Buy the rest!

No. I don't buy it.

Amen.
I like your way of thinking correctly !

 

[Mr E]

the problem with what Epi is saying is that he is saying those people will not be saved. Hence he is placing the onus of one saving themselves on how they act here on earth. basically putting a person back under the law.

I was a prodigal son. I left the church due to some things my ex wife did and the churches response.. I would be one of those people epi would say was lost and not saved at that time. That is far from the truth. I was still my fathers child.. I can not unborn my self any more than I can give birth tomyself

It is God who made me born again through his sons blood I can not unbirth myself or remove the blood of his son.

I can live like the people he speaks of. and I will suffer dealy through it. I will not only be chastened by God (And I know I have felt this, it is what brought me back to him) or I can prove I am illegitiment and not a true child. while there is no chastening..

but I can not lose salvation like Epi is trying to say. there are no multiple parts of being saved eternally. There are multiple levels of maturity after one is saved. and we will all be glorified. but there is not different aspects of salvation.

Epi has what we call a feel good works based gospel. It sounds good and it feels good. because it says those who return to sin or who commit certain sins can not be saved..

salvation is not dependent on that. We need to be saved because we have missed the mark. and are cursed by the curse that jesus took on the cross. It is his death an our faith in that death and promise which saves us.

He who believes is NOT CONDEMNED

he who does not believe is condemned already..


Epi and those like him would say Jesus said he who believes is not condemned, as long as they (insert whatever requirement they say must be met to keep saved)

thats a different gospel.. not from God. Jesus did not say belief plus. He said whoever ocmes to the point of belief will never die.

Is our faith in that promise, or in how good we are?

I'll say it a third time. I LIKE @Episkopos -I'm enjoying his book, without agreeing with much of it. In it he's telling the story of how he arrived.... as if he already has done so. He's arrived at conclusions, which are no more than beliefs-- things he's derived from scripture, from experience, from other things he's read and heard, all of which mash together to become a personal doctrine turned dogma that he now insists upon vigorously. You can tell it's become dogma by his defense of it. In his mind these things are no longer up for discussion, which is why this discussion here irritates him so.

 

[Mr E]

Amen.
I like your way of thinking correctly !

Thank you for that encouragement. I pray that some people will be able to cut through the clutter and smoke, and see clearly.

Do you know when Jesus walked 'the higher path' ?? --after three days in the tomb. Not until then. Before he was raised (from the dead) he was raised just like us. He walked this earthly plane his whole ministry.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Absolutely. People are guided, whether they realize it or not. They are prompted, compelled, led..... by the powers that be. -and those powers are not earthly. That's the point I've been emphasizing. We don't ascend some higher path to walk in that realm. That realm exists in us.

My post was encouragement for lizbeth and Epi, who both did it right just there for a moment, despite you working against that.

 

[Keturah]

HEY, I DON'T JUST WEAR THE SHIRT...........I LIVE IT !

 

[Mr E]

They need the harder-to-digest meat of the word to provoke and prod them onward to the goal, and that is what many churches are completely neglecting. They are only willing to hear the warm and fuzzy, easy-to-hear side of things. Fine for babes, newer believers who are just getting established in their faith....but that becomes a dangerous place to just sit and comfortably camp out in indefinitely for those who "by now ought to be" growing up and able to bear the less comfortable truths.

In this regard, you and @Episkopos are spot on. But how many are willing and able to set aside those things they think they know in exchange for things they've never considered? That's what Jesus required of those 'hearers' in his day, and that's what they were unable to do. Those in 'the church' --the most religious and (self) righteous people were the very ones who resisted and rejected his message. The fiercely defended their own understanding and turned their backs on the Light of Life that was right there in their midst. He met them on their path. On this plane.

 

[Keturah]

My post was encouragement for lizbeth and Epi, who both did it right just there for a moment, despite you working against that.

And why just who YOU CHOOSE?
Can any not receive encouragement?
Edify and encourage the " brethren"!
Oh, I see your exalted one is your focus.

 

[Mr E]

My post was encouragement for lizbeth and Epi, who both did it right just there for a moment, despite you working against that.

Don't be like that Jen. Please don't take things in such a personal way. People can disagree without being disagreeable toward one another. It's his doctrine I take exception to, which you've accepted whole-hog. That's your business. I was agreeing with you regarding the way things manifest. If you understood the concept better you'd see how close you came to the mark. If you are a vessel, what is a manifest?

 

[Wynona]

Yes. And I think most or all of us agree with you here...you have found the middle-ground, so to speak.

But the difference is the fact that there is more than 1 salvation we need to cross over into. There is "saved from", and "saved to". There are the righteous, and the holy. In Psalms it says "I will raise up the cup of salvations"...plural. Although translation ignore that fact.

I have encountered many who understand the incremental walk...improving oneself over time...but few who understand the need to be translated into another realm. That's where the mocking and ridicule come in. But that is what it means to be a fool for Christ. The truth is that no one improves into holiness and the perfection of being in Christ. So then the incremental walk is a perpetual walk in one's own strength...even if that life is LED by the Spirit.

How hard was it for the Israelites to think they could conquer a greater people than themselves...impossible. But a few believed with God ANYTHING was possible. So then we have to take the biblical narrative by faith and realize that with Christ ALL things are possible. We can walk in His resurrection life...simply by being translated to be with Him WHERE He is. And that is not the wilderness walk...but rather the highway of holiness.

Until then. a humble stance of following Christ is in order...seeking, asking and knocking, until we are permitted (approved) to take the HUGE step into holiness. That step involves being crucified with Him so that we can live a life that is raised with Him is His resurrection life.

I don't doubt your experience of Holiness, But I disagree with you saying the incremental walk is in your own strength even if led by the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 5:16

​

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

The Scriptures call all believers to do this, not just those who have been translated into a supernatural holiness experience.

Of course there's more to the Christian walk then what we often see around us. We're supposed to walk in miracles, healing, signs, and wonders and cast out demons. We're supposed to be known by our love. Power, love, and a sound mind. But don't be so sure that others aren't seeking, praying, and knocking for greater as well.

No matter how deep we go with the Lord, we still need the balance of the perspectives of other brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[Keturah]

I don't doubt your experience of Holiness, But I disagree with you saying the incremental walk is in your own strength even if led by the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 5:16​

​

​

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

The Scriptures call all believers to do this, not just those who have been translated into a supernatural holiness experience.

Of course there's more to the Christian walk then what we often see around us. We're supposed to walk in miracles, healing, signs, and wonders and cast out demons. We're supposed to be known by our love. Power, love, and a sound mind. But don't be so sure that others aren't seeking, praying, and knocking for greater as well.

No matter how deep we go with the Lord, we still need the balance of the perspectives of other brothers and sisters in Christ.

Amen, sister !
BALANCE IS THE KEY !

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Don't be like that Jen. Please don't take things in such a personal way. People can disagree without being disagreeable toward one another. It's his doctrine I take exception to, which you've accepted whole-hog. That's your business. I was agreeing with you regarding the way things manifest. If you understood the concept better you'd see how close you came to the mark. If you are a vessel, what is a manifest?

I rejoiced when I saw them submit to one another. And I will take it in a personal way when you try to tear down any little unity in the Spirit because you harm us all when you do it. I will most definitely speak against you harming us. I will stop being like that when you stop doing it.

 

[Mr E]

I rejoiced when I saw them submit to one another. And I will take it in a personal way when you try to tear down any little unity in the Spirit because you harm us all when you do it. I will most definitely speak against you harming us. I will stop being like that when you stop doing it.

That sounds fleshy.

I thought you had put your flesh beneath your feet and you were now walking with @Episkopos on that higher path?

No one has harmed you here. It's just your feelings. It's only your ideas I'm rubbing against.

 

[Keturah]

The Spirit bears witness with the Spirit in others.
James says to submit to GOD.

 

[Keturah]

I rejoiced when I saw them submit to one another. And I will take it in a personal way when you try to tear down any little unity in the Spirit because you harm us all when you do it. I will most definitely speak against you harming us. I will stop being like that when you stop doing it.

You need to seek God not be a subject to ANY MAN.

Harm us? What is this nonsense? Is this man your redeemer? Will he return from heaven and receive you to the Father?

Decompression might help here.
Get alone with GOD, OUR SAVIOUR, he is to those that believe in GOD anyway !

 

[Mr E]

The Spirit bears witness with the Spirit in others.
James says to submit to GOD.

 

[Keturah]

Good but funny.
Those that have God, have his Spirit inside or along with, bc it had better be God we worship !