Just a question

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Choir Loft
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True. But it most surely is built into Christian counterfeits.

Specific examples?

Instead of generic accusations, please provide factual examples. Caution: perverse non-fact based instances can be quickly disproved with the result that their use will make the writer look like a fool.

As I understand it you are parroting racist dogma and mixing it with pseudo-atheistic bigotry.

Consequently I cannot respond with any clarification that will even remotely address your intrinsic hatred of anything which has spring from our Judeo-Christian heritage - also called Western culture. Hatred and bigotry doesn't respond to logic and fact. Do you?

If you do respond to logic and fact, then please tell me what the first and second commandments are; exhalted in churches and synagogues that have not yet forgotten their spiritual roots.

Some may say religious folks aren't perfect. That's not accurate for it is religious folks that are the pillar of modern society. Those that seek to destroy it must first attack society at its root, must first cripple the pillars - or at least convince the gang that follows them that they've had a go at it.

If you are willing to engage in specific examples and an intellectual exchange of ideas then let's get it on.

If you only wish to disparage good and decent folks who live their lives and do their best to respect their neighbors, live decently and lawfully , who contribute to their community and who worship the Almighty one true God of heaven then be prepared for an argument that will strike to the bone of doctrines of demons as well as politically debauched agendas.

On the other hand, if you really wish to learn something we can discuss that too.

What'll it be Brakes......

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

Brakelite

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Specific examples?

Instead of generic accusations, please provide factual examples. Caution: perverse non-fact based instances can be quickly disproved with the result that their use will make the writer look like a fool.

As I understand it you are parroting racist dogma and mixing it with pseudo-atheistic bigotry.

Consequently I cannot respond with any clarification that will even remotely address your intrinsic hatred of anything which has spring from our Judeo-Christian heritage - also called Western culture. Hatred and bigotry doesn't respond to logic and fact. Do you?

If you do respond to logic and fact, then please tell me what the first and second commandments are; exhalted in churches and synagogues that have not yet forgotten their spiritual roots.

Some may say religious folks aren't perfect. That's not accurate for it is religious folks that are the pillar of modern society. Those that seek to destroy it must first attack society at its root, must first cripple the pillars - or at least convince the gang that follows them that they've had a go at it.

If you are willing to engage in specific examples and an intellectual exchange of ideas then let's get it on.

If you only wish to disparage good and decent folks who live their lives and do their best to respect their neighbors, live decently and lawfully , who contribute to their community and who worship the Almighty one true God of heaven then be prepared for an argument that will strike to the bone of doctrines of demons as well as politically debauched agendas.

On the other hand, if you really wish to learn something we can discuss that too.

What'll it be Brakes......

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
You seem to be an educated fellow, albeit somewhat presumptuous and premature in your castigation of what is most assuredly a generic condemnation, but one which I am surprised to have engendered such a response as to suggest that any organization that does have within it's framework of operation a set agenda for the extirpation of its enemies but professes the Christian faith, is in actual fact genuinely Christian and not a counterfeit.
My examples are far too many to relate in one short conversation, therefore I shall limit myself to one, knowing that you, if not informed of the many, may investigate further with little effort.
As to your charge that my post was directed at individuals who are genuine God fearing Christians, I put it to you that even within the counterfeit, there are many such individuals, and they are not responsible for the policies and practices of the leadership of their institution. My post was not aimed at them.
Also, my short post to windmill was not a direct comment on black/white relations, nor on slavery, but merely a statement that there is a counterfeit Christian faith, with a history in enslaving and exterminating entire cultures for the sake of obliterating a living testimony against it's own evils.
Now, that one example I spoke of? The crusade against the Waldenses by Pope Innocent VIII. This was not the action of an individual who was merely morally bankrupt, but was in all truth the outworking of church policy, similar to that of Islam... An entrenched hatred for any and all who lived lives in an orderly, godly, humble, and Christlike fashion that bore living testimony to the corruptions and evils of the institution that ordered their destruction. The details and results of this crusade, the numbers commanded by the papal Bull to fight, the rewards and incentives offered, and the results of the subsequent action, are readily available online, and are but one example of many over centuries, that demonstrate that despite the Christian profession of those murderers, and the institution they represented, it is nothing but a counterfeit, a false and fake profession that deserves every condemnation. And nor was the crusade against a small group of dissidents who were threatening harm upon society. But rather the opposite. The Waldenses had long since spread all over Europe as a result of previous persecutions, preaching the true gospel, and testifying to the risen Lord. The bull of Innocent VIII was against an entire people, a culture that had been in existence for centuries, and derived it's faith directly from the apostles.
I would also suggest that though I was not directly suggesting any direct involvement in the enslaving of the people's of Africa, and south America, there is evidence of indirect involvement through Spanish and Portuguese conquests and land grabbing of territories I'm those continents. And if those who were captured and taken away were enslaved physically, there were left remaining millions who were enslaved spiritually.
 

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Choir Loft
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You seem to be an educated fellow, albeit somewhat presumptuous and premature in your castigation of what is most assuredly a generic condemnation, but one which I am surprised to have engendered such a response as to suggest that any organization that does have within it's framework of operation a set agenda for the extirpation of its enemies but professes the Christian faith, is in actual fact genuinely Christian and not a counterfeit.
My examples are far too many to relate in one short conversation, therefore I shall limit myself to one, knowing that you, if not informed of the many, may investigate further with little effort.
As to your charge that my post was directed at individuals who are genuine God fearing Christians, I put it to you that even within the counterfeit, there are many such individuals, and they are not responsible for the policies and practices of the leadership of their institution. My post was not aimed at them.
Also, my short post to windmill was not a direct comment on black/white relations, nor on slavery, but merely a statement that there is a counterfeit Christian faith, with a history in enslaving and exterminating entire cultures for the sake of obliterating a living testimony against it's own evils.
Now, that one example I spoke of? The crusade against the Waldenses by Pope Innocent VIII. This was not the action of an individual who was merely morally bankrupt, but was in all truth the outworking of church policy, similar to that of Islam... An entrenched hatred for any and all who lived lives in an orderly, godly, humble, and Christlike fashion that bore living testimony to the corruptions and evils of the institution that ordered their destruction. The details and results of this crusade, the numbers commanded by the papal Bull to fight, the rewards and incentives offered, and the results of the subsequent action, are readily available online, and are but one example of many over centuries, that demonstrate that despite the Christian profession of those murderers, and the institution they represented, it is nothing but a counterfeit, a false and fake profession that deserves every condemnation. And nor was the crusade against a small group of dissidents who were threatening harm upon society. But rather the opposite. The Waldenses had long since spread all over Europe as a result of previous persecutions, preaching the true gospel, and testifying to the risen Lord. The bull of Innocent VIII was against an entire people, a culture that had been in existence for centuries, and derived it's faith directly from the apostles.
I would also suggest that though I was not directly suggesting any direct involvement in the enslaving of the people's of Africa, and south America, there is evidence of indirect involvement through Spanish and Portuguese conquests and land grabbing of territories I'm those continents. And if those who were captured and taken away were enslaved physically, there were left remaining millions who were enslaved spiritually.
Nice tap dance. It's rare for me to read a response that doesn't stoop to ad hominem attack.

I'd like to begin by asking who you are - religious, non-religious, Calvinist ..... ?

You seem to be fixated upon the Waldenses who mostly aligned themselves with Calvinism/Presbyterians following the aforementioned assault by the Vatican. Religious persecution wasn't strictly limited to them. Jews suffered most. In fact the Roman Catholic church is responsible for the death of over sixty million innocent people throughout its sixteen hundred year history. That's more than all other religions and nations combined. Why focus on the Waldenses to the exclusion of all others?

The attack upon the Waldenses wasn't unusual for the RCC at that time, considering their over all behavior. For instance, the Great Schism of 1054, which resulted in the separation of the Eastern Orthodox church, was primarily a "control issue". In fact, virtually ALL assaults of the Vatican upon dissidents (as they are politically labeled these days) were basically designed to promote the authority of the Papacy - or the antiChrist as the Protestant Reformers once called it. (Protestants today have betrayed Reformation fathers and presently march in lock-step with Rome.)

You like to accuse the church of being counterfeit. Which church? The RCC? Baptists? Methodists? Episcopalians? Protestants in general? While I agree the church as a whole is morally bankrupt and almost totally devoid of anything even approaching spiritual responsibility, it's important to identify specific issues such as leadership. Statements accusing the church of systemic -anything- other than spiritual irresponsibility and moral depravity are totally unfounded. Why? Because the church today has little, if any, impact upon secular society.

For instance, most pastors today have one hand on the Bible and the other hand in someone else's pocket (sometimes their pants too). It's about sex and money and little else.

Is this the fault of the sheep who are led by traitorous shepherds? I think not.

Most of your posts suggest imply or otherwise state that the church (whatever church you mean) is guilty of systemic racism, persecution, murder, etc. The idea of "systematic" anything is a current buzz word coined by radical leftist racists in America. The term may lead to confusion regarding your ideology. Consequently one tends to respond to your systemic agenda in political terms rather than spiritual ones. Nothing of what you've said considers the spiritual temperature of the church - which at this point in time is rather feverish (meaning sickly or ailing or weak).

One of your statements is inaccurate or at best ill informed. You wrote that those in Africa who weren't enslaved were left spiritually enslaved. History records that African culture is and always has been a victim of its own choice. Perhaps you meant those who had been sold into slavery in North and South America were spiritually enslaved. Your remarks didn't clarify your charges against the church. Allow me to expand on this inaccuracy.

In Africa, European & American missionaries attempted to educate the nations and alter the culture to one that wasn't self-destructive. Their influence was extremely limited. Once the colonial period ended the entire cultural edifice began to crumble. Local warlords came to the forefront and almost the entire continent reverted to a form of feudal/dictatorial authority. The resulting spiritual slavery was their own work, not that of the church, however dedicated missionaries might have been in the beginning. Eventually missionary organizations succumbed to greed and self-aggrandizement, as has nearly every other aspect of western culture. The church betrayed the gospel.

In America, a different form resulted. Slaves in America DID respond to Christian influences. Following the end of the Civil War the church became the first and best black institution. It has remained so to this day. In the mid-20th century the black church became the sole driving force for the hope and attainment of civil rights and political leadership for those of color. Things improved well enough until clandestine actions by unelected agencies of the US government began to destabilize the entire American culture from top to bottom, inside and out. The church whether it be RCC or protestant, had nothing to do with it.

Since nearly the entire institution of the church has betrayed the gospel it has no idea what's going on socially, politically, economically or spiritually. It is today so debauched it has no relevance whatsoever. It's rather like accusing an idiot of subverting a world he does not understand. The accusation is not only uninformed but ludicrous.

Americans have no idea what is happening to them. (Pravda)

Your first and possibly primary accusation is that the church has adopted "a set agenda for the extirpation of its enemies". In other words, the establishment promotion and continuation of Vatican control. As I replied earlier in this post, your accusation is true but not accurate.

The Vatican continues to operate an organized agenda to this day albeit one that's losing control of itself as well as its formula for global success. The protestant church has degenerated into disorganized situations that promote self-destruction. Both are in a general state of withering influence upon the world's population. Once upon a time the church was well respected. Today it's a joke. Jokes have little power to exact 'systemic' anything except humor and disrespect.

Throughout the globe nations and peoples and cultures are reverting to their ancient belief systems. Once again the ancient gods and systems are rising to the fore. Once again persecution of Jews is becoming popular. Once again, the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, once held in high regard by Jews, Muslims and Protestants is being forgotten. Something new is rising. That new thing is humanistic self-worship.

Something wicked is coming our way.

It's fueled by perversion of every sort; secular political expediency, economic upheaval, military force, social role reversal, sexual dysfunction, white slavery/human trafficking, true metaphysical spiritual oppression and almost absolute hatred and denial of God in any and every form imaginable.

Something else is also coming our way.....

A reckoning

Therefore it is time to REPENT of our SINs and wickedness...for the time of reckoning is near at hand.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 
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Brakelite

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I'd like to begin by asking who you are - religious, non-religious, Calvinist ..... ?
Seventh Day Adventist
You seem to be fixated
Not at all. I am fully aware of crusades and inquisitions against the Christians of Goa, the Albigenses of France, and numerous attacks both physical, political, and spiritual across all of Europe.
You like to accuse the church of being counterfeit. Which church?
The Catholic Church.
You wrote that those in Africa who weren't enslaved were left spiritually enslaved.
Africa to a limited extent. South and central America very much so.
 

n2thelight

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You obviously haven't been following the conversation. I left clues all through everything I wrote.

Here's another clue. Read the book of Exodus. It's the second book of the Bible.

You could also read the book EXODUS by Leon Uris. That would be another clue.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Keep hollering
 

Michiah-Imla

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“He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings…” (1 Timothy 6:4)

This is a useless and vain discussion topic.
 
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n2thelight

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Your revisionist racist remarks are a blatant attempt to justify an agenda that is entirely subversive.

The African slave trade flourished during the colonial period in North and South America. I've already stated that it was Africans, not Europeans that enslaved their own race and who sold them into slavery to the white traders who waited at the docks for the next shipment of human cargo.

I've been to Africa. Have you? I've traveled in several countries there. Have you? Probably not, yet you claim personal knowledge that is non-existent.

The black race is clever, protective of its own and well able to defend what is theirs (and to steal what isn't). Do you really expect readers here or anywhere else to believe Europeans could land on African shores, travel inland to villages and remote locations, trap blacks as though they were unknowing animals and transport them back to their ships without resistance? If you do you are guilty of unreasoned propagandizing and deliberate obfuscation.

Go to Harlem or any black section of any city in America and attempt to exert your will upon them. Even the police have a difficult time enforcing civil laws there. Blacks are clever enough to block white invasion of their territory even in our modern technological age. Oh yes, they were guilty of slave trading as much as the whites. In modern parlance, it took two to tango.

Moving to the Jewish race, the tribe of Judah is of SEMITIC background, not African. The SEMITES originally settled in the fertile crescent around what is now referred to as the Levant. I suppose you've been there too, right? Go to any synagogue and inform the Jews there that they are black and see what happens. I've attended synagogues where a few blacks have joined in the worship services. Have you? In my personal experience they have attended temple to worship Adonai, not to promote issues of genealogy, special interest, racial subversion or historic revisionism.

There are those today who have claimed to be black Hebrews, but their claims have been proven to be unfounded.

It's another attempt by American blacks who've lost their identity to seize a heritage that isn't their own. They do so because they lost their identity when they were sold into slavery by their own people.

The current black Hebrew movement actually began in the late 19th century (along with many other religious heresies) when Frank Cherry and William Saunders Crowdy claimed to have received visions instructing them they were descents of Biblical Hebrews. (Were they smoking something when they received their inspiration? Nobody knows.) Moving forward from that time, numerous groups sprang from that 'revelation' and claimed identification with Judah as well.

ACCORDING TO THE ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGE (ADL) SOME OF THESE SELF-PROCLAIMED BLACK ISRAELITES ARE ANTI-SEMITIC RACISTS.

Read the newspapers and watch media coverage. Black hatred of Jews is increasing. Some American Jewish leaders have recently stated that they are increasingly uncomfortable with the rising tide of anti-semitism in America. Media coverage of attacks is reluctant to display black faces behind attacks upon Jews, but sometimes it escapes the censors. On those occasions we all see it quite clearly.

Now that nation called Israel, never has had any peace in forty years and she will never have any peace because there can never be any peace structured on injustice, thievery, lying and deceit and using the name of God to shield your dirty religion under His holy and righteous name. - Minister Louis Farrakhan

The Jews don't like Farrakhan, so they call me Hitler. Well, that's a good name. Hitler was a very great man. - Minister Louis Farrakhan


If the above quoted statements aren't racist, then nobody in America knows what the word means.

Go back and have another look at the descendants of modern Jews. They are SEMITES, not Africans.

I suggest you consult something other than YouTube, tabloid journalism or racist literature for your information. You would do well to do so.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

PS The Muslim holy book, the Qur'an certifies the right of Jews to live in Israel.

And We made the people who were deemed weak to inherit the eastern lands and the western ones which We had blessed; and the good word of your Lord was fulfilled in the children of Israel because they bore up (sufferings) patiently; and We utterly destroyed what Firon (pharaoh) and his people had wrought and what they built. (Qur’an 7.137)

And when Musa (Moses) said to his people: O my people! remember the favor of Allah upon you when He raised prophets among you and made you kings and gave you what He had not given to any other among the nations. O my people! enter the holy land which Allah has prescribed for you and turn not on your backs for then you will turn back losers. (Qur’an 5.20-21)

And We said to the Israelites after him: Dwell in the land: and when the promise of the next life shall come to pass, we will bring you both together in judgment. (Qur’an 17.104)

And.surely they purposed to unsettle you from the land that they might expel you from it, and in that case they will not tarry behind you but a little. (Qur’an 17.76 (prophecy of attempts to remove Jews from Palestine))
It's well documented (well not well) that the Jews were black
 
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Choir Loft
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It's well documented (well not well) that the Jews were black

Again, there is no certifiable documentation that Jews are or were black. You even admit this in your post. What remains, therefore, is purely racist conjecture.

Again, it has been proven to be a false assertion by the Anti-Defamation League.

Again, Jews are of SEMITIC origin. They are not African.

In Genesis 11:31 we read that Abraham, the father of Isaac (Hebrews) and Ishmael (Arabs) was born among the people of the Chaldean city of UR. The ancient city of UR was located in the northeastern region of the modern nation of Syria - near the Turkish eastern border.

God instructed Abraham to leave the town and proceed to the land of Canaan, which is the home of the ancient and modern State of Israel.

NOT EVERYONE WHO LIVED/LIVES IN AFRICA IS BLACK.

Consider those of the northern shores of the African continent. They aren't black either. Consider those of nations as far west as the Atlantic coast. They aren't black (such as the blue men of Morocco). I've been to Dakar, Senegal. Many there aren't black, either.

Have you traveled to Africa?

The first city I ever visited in Africa was Monrovia, Liberia. Their flag resembles that of America and their currency is in dollars and cents not Dinars. At one point in US history several well financed groups combined their resources to ship blacks back to Africa. When they did so the blacks who returned formed the nation of Liberia and founded the port city of Monrovia. Those folks consider themselves to be Liberian, not black. Their personal and political identity is well established and has NOT been infected by toxic American politics. I can testify to that as I worked with their local police on a number of occasions.

Have you traveled to Africa?

What do you know about the people there?

Are you a Jew? Do you live in Israel? Can you knowledgeably discuss the current political climate of Israel as it affects Jews born in Israel and those who've recently made aliyah?

American politics of the last half of the twentieth century and beginning of the twenty-fist century are highly toxic and should not be given credence other than to prove the erosion of a once great nation into confusion, racism, economic instability, military ineptitude (*) and historic obscurity.

Jesus Christ is a Jew who is also the King of the Jews. Those who surrender and make peace with Him join His kingdom and become Jews. (Romans 2:29) Christ isn't concerned about one's ancestry as humans seem to be. Human politics won't save anybody.

Jesus saves.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) The American military hasn't won a war since 1945. The number of dedicated dead and wounded (of which I am one) who've served under its flag number in the tens of thousands, yet not one advantage has been derived from any of the conflicts that have been engaged. The single exception is the incredible profits made by defense contractors who provide the machinery of war.
 
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Choir Loft
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Not at all. I am fully aware of crusades and inquisitions against the Christians of Goa, the Albigenses of France, and numerous attacks both physical, political, and spiritual across all of Europe.

The Catholic Church.

Africa to a limited extent. South and central America very much so.

7th Day Adventist.

That says a lot.

It explains your position regarding the RCC, which the fathers of the protestant reformation stated as being the anti-Christ system foretold by the prophet Daniel and the book of Revelation.

It's important for any reader here to understand that American protestant denominations as well as evangelical churches seem to have abandoned Reformation ideology and now embrace the Holy See. Some individuals are aware of this trend, but most aren't - having succumbed to the indoctrination and manipulation that has subverted the gospel. Others have left the church entirely and now wander the streets of their communities like spiritual refugees. I first became aware of the trend to combine RCC & protestant ideology during my attendance in seminary many years ago. Church leadership is responsible for this trend. Unfortunately the laity has no idea they're being led astray - either then or now.

It seems we are in agreement here, albeit on different aspects of the same argument.

You didn't mention Jews in your list of those persecuted by the Vatican. During WWII the RCC specifically and deliberately turned a blind eye toward the plight of those innocent men women and children who suffered and died in the European holocaust DESPITE having clear and unequivocal knowledge of these crimes against humanity. Following the end of European hostilities the Vatican worked closely with Allen Dulles, an officer of the OSS (precursor to the CIA) (*), and the Odessa group (post-war Nazi underground) to smuggle former Nazi officials and scientists out of Europe into America. Even with the end of German influence in Europe the Vatican was loath to admit to collusion with Germany and Italy to persecute and murder Jews. Despite millions of displaced Jews at the end of the war in Europe the Vatican did little to supply humanitarian aid to Jews. In some instances the RCC even attempted to block emigration to Palestine by homeless Jews.

One of the doctrines of demons (1 Tim 4:1) promoted by the Vatican publication titled FUTURISM (written by Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera - late 16th century) and which was refurbished and republished by John Nelson Darby (mid to late 19th century) is generally referred to as the Tribulation.

This doctrine of demonic hate is said to inspire a hope for Jewish persecution during a time prior to the second coming of Christ - a future time I must add here. Few know and fewer still understand that the 7 year period predicted by Daniel and Jeremiah (30:7) has already happened (1938-1945). Evangelicals hope for a SECOND HOLOCAUST, a second wave of hatred and murder of innocent men women and children. The deliberate acceptance of racial extermination is a blot upon the ideology of protestant evangelicals as well as the RCC that endorsed Ribera's book in the first place. Is this the church of Christ we are supposed to respect? Indeed, it is not.

Like the tentacles of some hideous dark octopus, the RCC has a long reach. History and modern culture reflect its influence.

If you wish to continue to condemn the Vatican for its antiChrist activities throughout history you'll not get an argument from me.

Past opposition to some of your statements were written by myself from a position of ignorance regarding your denominational posture.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

(*) Allen Dulles eventually became an early Director of the CIA, but was dismissed by President John F. Kennedy following Dulles' botched administration of the Bay of Pigs invasion. Consequently Dulles became the chief organizer of the Dallas assassination and a member of the Warren Commission that covered it up with official jargon, media manipulation and the participation of the intelligence community with whom Dulles had considerable influence.
 
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Brakelite

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7th Day Adventist.

That says a lot.

It explains your position regarding the RCC, which the fathers of the protestant reformation stated as being the anti-Christ system foretold by the prophet Daniel and the book of Revelation.

It's important for any reader here to understand that American protestant denominations as well as evangelical churches seem to have abandoned Reformation ideology and now embrace the Holy See. Some individuals are aware of this trend, but most aren't - having succumbed to the indoctrination and manipulation that has subverted the gospel. Others have left the church entirely and now wander the streets of their communities like spiritual refugees. I first became aware of the trend to combine RCC & protestant ideology during my attendance in seminary many years ago. Church leadership is responsible for this trend. Unfortunately the laity has no idea they're being led astray - either then or now.

It seems we are in agreement here, albeit on different aspects of the same argument.

You didn't mention Jews in your list of those persecuted by the Vatican. During WWII the RCC specifically and deliberately turned a blind eye toward the plight of those innocent men women and children who suffered and died in the European holocaust DESPITE having clear and unequivocal knowledge of these crimes against humanity. Following the end of European hostilities the Vatican worked closely with Allen Dulles, an officer of the OSS (precursor to the CIA) (*), and the Odessa group (post-war Nazi underground) to smuggle former Nazi officials and scientists out of Europe into America. Even with the end of German influence in Europe the Vatican was loath to admit to collusion with Germany and Italy to persecute and murder Jews. Despite millions of displaced Jews at the end of the war in Europe the Vatican did little to supply humanitarian aid to Jews. In some instances the RCC even attempted to block emigration to Palestine by homeless Jews.

One of the doctrines of demons (1 Tim 4:1) promoted by the Vatican publication titled FUTURISM (written by Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera - late 16th century) and which was refurbished and republished by John Nelson Darby (mid to late 19th century) is generally referred to as the Tribulation.

This doctrine of demonic hate is said to inspire a hope for Jewish persecution during a time prior to the second coming of Christ - a future time I must add here. Few know and fewer still understand that the 7 year period predicted by Daniel and Jeremiah (30:7) has already happened (1938-1945). Evangelicals hope for a SECOND HOLOCAUST, a second wave of hatred and murder of innocent men women and children. The deliberate acceptance of racial extermination is a blot upon the ideology of protestant evangelicals as well as the RCC that endorsed Ribera's book in the first place. Is this the church of Christ we are supposed to respect? Indeed, it is not.

Like the tentacles of some hideous dark octopus, the RCC has a long reach. History and modern culture reflect its influence.

If you wish to continue to condemn the Vatican for its antiChrist activities throughout history you'll not get an argument from me.

Past opposition to some of your statements were written by myself from a position of ignorance regarding your denominational posture.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

(*) Allen Dulles eventually became an early Director of the CIA, but was dismissed by President John F. Kennedy following Dulles' botched administration of the Bay of Pigs invasion. Consequently Dulles became the chief organizer of the Dallas assassination and a member of the Warren Commission that covered it up with official jargon, media manipulation and the participation of the intelligence community with whom Dulles had considerable influence.
The media manipulation is typical of the Jesuit agenda in protecting and promoting Vatican interests. It's why today so many believe Pius 6th? was a defender of Israel and helped smuggle Jews out of Europe. Very politically incorrect these days to suggest otherwise. Hate speech. The prophecy and warning of Isaiah about calling evil good and good evil, saying black is white and sweet for sour, is being literally fulfilled in today's western culture/society, and very neat all of it can be laid at the feet of Vatican propaganda and misinformation... Lies... Particularly by Jesuits operating in media and Hollywood. Jesuit theater has been alive and well since it's early days 400 years ago in European universities and seminaries, and evolved into modern entertainment along with it's far teaching tentacles into education. That modern American Christianity sees the enemy as a left wing political socialist agenda to destroy America is another Jesuit lie. The Pope is socialist and a supporter of the WEF, but even that is but another red herring. All bad, all obnoxious yes, but not the real agenda. Right now as you noted, American protestantism is, as Ellen White so accurately foretold...
Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, (see Revelation 16:13,14) this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience GC 588.1
 
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The media manipulation is typical of the Jesuit agenda in protecting and promoting Vatican interests. It's why today so many believe Pius 6th? was a defender of Israel and helped smuggle Jews out of Europe. Very politically incorrect these days to suggest otherwise. Hate speech. The prophecy and warning of Isaiah about calling evil good and good evil, saying black is white and sweet for sour, is being literally fulfilled in today's western culture/society, and very neat all of it can be laid at the feet of Vatican propaganda and misinformation... Lies... Particularly by Jesuits operating in media and Hollywood. Jesuit theater has been alive and well since it's early days 400 years ago in European universities and seminaries, and evolved into modern entertainment along with it's far teaching tentacles into education. That modern American Christianity sees the enemy as a left wing political socialist agenda to destroy America is another Jesuit lie. The Pope is socialist and a supporter of the WEF, but even that is but another red herring. All bad, all obnoxious yes, but not the real agenda. Right now as you noted, American protestantism is, as Ellen White so accurately foretold...
Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, (see Revelation 16:13,14) this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience GC 588.1
Prophecy of Isaiah regarding the reversal of terms evil & good, black & white, sweet & sour, etc. isn't readily coming to mind. I believe I've heard or read it before. Please clarify with chapter and verse.

Of the two errors you mention, immortality of the soul & Sunday sacredness, I wish to make clear in my mind what you refer to....

We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” (Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50)

He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. (Daniel 7:25)

For the interest of the casual reader a definition of the term immortal soul follows;

Immortality of the soul doesn't exist because there isn't any ... soul ...

The gnostics, who were also persecuted by the Vatican, taught that there isn't any soul in man because man hasn't received it (Zostrianos S.73).

Biblically the 'image of God' granted to Eve & Adam in Genesis 1:26 is lost in Genesis chapter 3. It is this 'image' that is the immortal quality or aspect of life that was removed when Eve brought SIN into the world (Genesis 3:6).

The 'image of God' isn't seen or described in Holy Writ again until the New Covenant. (Colossians 1:15, 2 Corinthians 4:4 etc.) The 'image of God', which is Christ within, seems to be an ill defined quality or quantity for those who aren't familiar with the term. Secular or secularized ideology usually suggests man is innately born with some natural quality that can survive physical death (with or without Christ). This idea originated in ancient Egypt and Babylon, but Genesis 3 teaches it isn't true at all. Ecclesiastes teaches something quite different.

Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. (Ecclesiastes 3:19)

The Vatican adopted Greek & Roman myth regarding the perseverance of the (non-existent) soul. Thus the idea of a Christianized afterlife or underworld had to be adopted. Dante Alighieri's book THE DIVINE COMEDY was meant as political satire, but was accepted by the Vatican as a theological treatise. The myth of Purgatory was thus accepted for financial advantage. 'Prayer cards' were offered so as to bribe loved ones out of the twilight zone between paradise and hell. (These prayer cards are available today at discount on eBay and Amazon.) Protestants got sucked into it and even the Reformation failed to cleanse European churches of the myth of hell.

Finally I agree with you that America will emulate Rome to some extent in that it will continue to trample the rights of conscience. None of the original Bill of Rights are legally binding any longer. 911 and the legislation that followed October 26th deratified the Bill of Rights.

However, I'm not exactly persuaded that this trend is altogether inspired by the Vatican. We may shake hands in the effort as did Hitler and Mussolini in their effort to dominate Europe, but I doubt Catholic influence extends to American global hegemony or growing domestic autocratic oppression. Oddly the American people seem to welcome it. (*)

"It hurts to think," is a quote and attitude of American public school students across the land. They've been conditioned to absorb facts and to regurgitate them when demanded, but they have not been schooled in the finer aspects of true study. Even adults of an earlier generation are loath to study - to collect data, to organize and collate it, and to report their findings in a logical and orderly manner INCLUDING those who still regularly attend church. Instead religious slogans and buzz words are reiterated - manipulation and indoctrination rule the day instead of true study and scriptural consideration.

It goes on and on ad nauseam. I believe we're close to the Day of Final Reckoning, but churches generally don't preach or teach the need for personal repentance. Alas much will be lost that was once thought to be good.

btw - I'm a Messianic Jew.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Even my (older) generation seems to be in the process of denying the liberties we were once taught and which were once proudly lauded. For instance, I remember it was said, "I may disagree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." Few today, including my older generation, admit that this is a quality one wants in American culture. Censorship is trendy today and I fear it won't be long before it becomes law.
 
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bbyrd009

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Prophecy of Isaiah regarding the reversal of terms evil & good, black & white, sweet & sour, etc. isn't readily coming to mind. I believe I've heard or read it before. Please clarify with chapter and verse.

Of the two errors you mention, immortality of the soul & Sunday sacredness, I wish to make clear in my mind what you refer to....

We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” (Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50)

He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. (Daniel 7:25)

For the interest of the casual reader a definition of the term immortal soul follows;

Immortality of the soul doesn't exist because there isn't any ... soul ...

The gnostics, who were also persecuted by the Vatican, taught that there isn't any soul in man because man hasn't received it (Zostrianos S.73).

Biblically the 'image of God' granted to Eve & Adam in Genesis 1:26 is lost in Genesis chapter 3. It is this 'image' that is the immortal quality or aspect of life that was removed when Eve brought SIN into the world (Genesis 3:6).

The 'image of God' isn't seen or described in Holy Writ again until the New Covenant. (Colossians 1:15, 2 Corinthians 4:4 etc.) The 'image of God', which is Christ within, seems to be an ill defined quality or quantity for those who aren't familiar with the term. Secular or secularized ideology usually suggests man is innately born with some natural quality that can survive physical death (with or without Christ). This idea originated in ancient Egypt and Babylon, but Genesis 3 teaches it isn't true at all. Ecclesiastes teaches something quite different.

Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. (Ecclesiastes 3:19)

The Vatican adopted Greek & Roman myth regarding the perseverance of the (non-existent) soul. Thus the idea of a Christianized afterlife or underworld had to be adopted. Dante Alighieri's book THE DIVINE COMEDY was meant as political satire, but was accepted by the Vatican as a theological treatise. The myth of Purgatory was thus accepted for financial advantage. 'Prayer cards' were offered so as to bribe loved ones out of the twilight zone between paradise and hell. (These prayer cards are available today at discount on eBay and Amazon.) Protestants got sucked into it and even the Reformation didn't completely cleanse European churches of the myth of hell.

Finally I agree with you that America will emulate Rome to some extent in that it will continue to trample the rights of conscience. None of the original Bill of Rights is legally binding any longer. 911 and the legislation of October 26th took care of that.

However, I'm not exactly persuaded that this trend is altogether inspired by the Vatican. We may shake hands in the effort as did Hitler and Mussolini in their effort to dominate Europe, but I doubt Catholic influence extends to American global hegemony or growing domestic autocratic oppression. Oddly the American people seem to welcome it. (*)

"It hurts to think," is a quote and attitude of American public school students across the land. They've been conditioned to absorb facts and to regurgitate them when demanded, but they have not been schooled in the finer aspects of true study. Even adults of an earlier generation are loath to study - to collect data, to organize and collate it, and to report their findings in a logical and orderly manner.

It goes on and on ad nauseam. I believe we're close to the Day of Final Reckoning, but churches generally don't preach or teach the need for personal repentance. Alas much will be lost that was once thought to be good.

btw - I'm a Messianic Jew.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Even my (older) generation seems to be in the process of denying the liberties we were once taught and which were once proudly lauded. For instance, I remember it was said, "I may disagree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." Few today, including my older generation, admit that this is a quality one wants in American culture.
tag for later

nymy btw, im mark :)
 
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Dropship

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The inference that Christians are generally guilty of persecution of all blacks is perverse racist and a blatant lie..

Agreed, no true Christian would persecute blacks or anybody else..:)
I watched '12 Years a Slave' for the first time yesterday and just as I expected it was full of anti-white pol-correct propaganda far from the truth.
To its credit though, it did feature several whites (notably Cumberbatch and Brad Pitt) who were sympathetic to the slaves plight.
Also to its credit in one scene a black- repeat black- overseer was whipping the slaves in the cotton field to get more work out of them.
 
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What about the charge that the Catholic Church did not condemn slavery until the 1890s and actually approved of it before then? In fact, the popes vigorously condemned African and Indian thralldom three and four centuries earlier a fact amply documented by Fr. Joel Panzer in his book, The Popes and Slavery. The argument that follows is largely based on his study.

Sixty years before Columbus discovered the New World, Pope Eugene IV condemned the enslavement of peoples in the newly colonized Canary Islands. His bull Sicut Dudum (1435) rebuked European enslavers and commanded that all and each of the faithful of each sex, within the space of fifteen days of the publication of these letters in the place where they live, that they restore to their earlier liberty all and each person of either sex who were once residents of [the] Canary Islands . . . who have been made subject to slavery. These people are to be totally and perpetually free and are to be let go without the exaction or reception of any money.

A century later, Pope Paul III applied the same principle to the newly encountered inhabitants of the West and South Indies in the bull Sublimis Deus (1537). Therein he described the enslavers as allies of the devil and declared attempts to justify such slavery null and void. Accompanying the bull was another document, Pastorale Officium, which attached a latae sententiae excommunication remittable only by the pope himself for those who attempted to enslave the Indians or steal their goods.

When Europeans began enslaving Africans as a cheap source of labor, the Holy Office of the Inquisition was asked about the morality of enslaving innocent blacks (Response of the Congregation of the Holy Office, 230, March 20, 1686). The practice was rejected, as was trading such slaves. Slaveholders, the Holy Office declared, were obliged to emancipate and even compensate blacks unjustly enslaved.

Papal condemnation of slavery persisted throughout the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. Pope Gregory XVIs 1839 bull, In Supremo, for instance, reiterated papal opposition to enslaving Indians, blacks, or other such people and forbade any ecclesiastic or lay person from presuming to defend as permissible this trade in blacks under no matter what pretext or excuse. In 1888 and again in 1890, Pope Leo XIII forcefully condemned slavery and sought its elimination where it persisted in parts of South America and Africa.

Despite this evidence, critics still insist the Magisterium did too little too late regarding slavery. Why? One reason is the critics failure to distinguish between just and unjust forms of servitude. The Magisterium condemned unjust enslavement early on, but it also recognized what is known as just title slavery. That included forced servitude of prisoners of war and criminals, and voluntary servitude of indentured servants, forms of servitude mentioned at the outset of this article. But chattel slavery as practiced in the United States and elsewhere differed in kind, not merely degree, from just tide slavery. For it made a claim on the slave as property and enslaved people who were not criminals or prisoners of war. By focusing on just title servitude, critics unfairly neglect the vigorous papal denunciations of chattel slavery.

The matter is further muddled by certain nineteenth century American clergy including some bishops and theologians who tried to defend the American slave system. They contended that the long-standing papal condemnations of slavery didn't apply to the United States. The slave trade, some argued, had been condemned by Pope Gregory XVI, but not slavery itself.

Historians critical of the papacy on this matter often make that same argument. But papal teaching condemned both the slave trade and chattel slavery itself (leaving aside just tide servitude, which wasn't at issue). It was certain members of the American hierarchy of the time who explained away that teaching. Thus, according to Fr. Panzer, we can look to the practice of non-compliance with the teachings of the papal Magisterium as a key reason why slavery was not directly opposed by the Church in the United States.

Another reason may have been the precarious position of the Catholic Church in America before the twentieth century. Catholics were a small and much-despised minority. They were subject to repeated, sometimes violent attacks by Protestant Nativists. In many ways, the American hierarchy of the day was trying to protect the Catholics immigrating to the U.S. and did not regard itself as in a position to be the leader in a major social crusade.

Does development justify every change?

For many Catholics today the key question is: Does previous Catholic practice regarding slavery amount to a change of doctrine such as would allow Catholic teaching on other subjects such as contraception and abortion to change as well?

The answer: In no way. The Church's teaching about the dignity and basic equality of all human beings has been clarified to such a degree that any earlier ambiguity about the tolerance of chattel slavery has been eradicated. The Church's teaching regarding contraception and abortion can also be said to have developed, but not in the direction of approving those practices...

Does all of this let individual Catholics off the hook when it comes to slavery? Certainly not. Those who in invincible ignorance owned slaves and regarded them as mere property did what is objectively evil, regardless of their subjective inculpability. Certainly their slaves suffered even if their masters somehow lacked full culpability due to invincible ignorance. And, of course, those who were deliberately cruel to their slaves committed grave sins that stand under Gods judgment.

At the same time, Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular contributed greatly to the abolition of slavery and the emergence of a common appreciation for fundamental human rights. Catholics, not Protestants, worked for the abolition of slavery in Latin American countries like Brazil. The Catholic appreciation of natural law as opposed to the Protestant principle of sola scriptura (when Scripture tells slaves to obey their masters) has always made slavery less reconcilable with Catholicism than Protestantism. The Church's consistent teaching that all men are made in Gods image and are called to redemption in Christ has helped give rise to the modern notion of human rights and equality ideas diametrically opposed to chattel slavery and that have led to a great diminishment in its practice.

read more from this source

further reading:
 
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Illuminator

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You didn't mention Jews in your list of those persecuted by the Vatican. During WWII the RCC specifically and deliberately turned a blind eye toward the plight of those innocent men women and children who suffered and died in the European holocaust DESPITE having clear and unequivocal knowledge of these crimes against humanity.
The vindication of Pius XII has been established principally by Jewish writers and from Israeli archives. It is now established that the Pope supervised a rescue network which saved 860,000 Jewish lives - more than all the international agencies put together.
Following the end of European hostilities the Vatican worked closely with Allen Dulles, an officer of the OSS (precursor to the CIA) (*), and the Odessa group (post-war Nazi underground) to smuggle former Nazi officials and scientists out of Europe into America. Even with the end of German influence in Europe the Vatican was loath to admit to collusion with Germany and Italy to persecute and murder Jews. Despite millions of displaced Jews at the end of the war in Europe the Vatican did little to supply humanitarian aid to Jews. In some instances the RCC even attempted to block emigration to Palestine by homeless Jews.
On Christmas Day 1942, as the Holocaust was raging, the New York Times published an editorial on the heroics of Pope Pius XII. Here is a selection from that statement that ran 70 years ago:

In the December 2011 issue of Commentary magazine, Kevin Madigan, the Winn Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Harvard Divinity School, put forth the false charge that the Vatican under Pope Pius XII intentionally helped Nazi war criminals escape justice and make their way to South America after World War II. He based his article on Gerald Steinacher’s Nazis on the Run: How Hitler’s Henchmen Fled Justice and David Cymet’s History vs. Apologetics: The Holocaust, the Third Reich, and the Catholic Church. The combination of sloppy work and over-the-top charges provides a textbook example of how a verifiably false account can be reported as fact in the mainstream media.


1673777700163.jpeg
 
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Wrangler

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Agreed, no true Christian would persecute blacks or anybody else.
Can't agree. No one is truly one thing and nothing else.

I am an American. You are British. The list of other things we are - in addition to Christian - is substantial. Any time I hear "no true Christian would ...," I cringe. A good example is the Rules for Christian Living, Rom 12 says to give our enemy food and water, etc. This is fine for our personal enemy. However, if we do this with our political enemy, it is properly called treasonous or traitorous.

We have both religious and political obligations. True Christians launched the Crusades to persecute a group who had attacked Christendom for centuries.
 
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Prophecy of Isaiah regarding the reversal of terms evil & good, black & white, sweet & sour, etc. isn't readily coming to mind. I believe I've heard or read it before. Please clarify with chapter and verse.

Of the two errors you mention, immortality of the soul & Sunday sacredness, I wish to make clear in my mind what you refer to....

We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” (Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50)

He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. (Daniel 7:25)

For the interest of the casual reader a definition of the term immortal soul follows;

Immortality of the soul doesn't exist because there isn't any ... soul ...

The gnostics, who were also persecuted by the Vatican, taught that there isn't any soul in man because man hasn't received it (Zostrianos S.73).

Biblically the 'image of God' granted to Eve & Adam in Genesis 1:26 is lost in Genesis chapter 3. It is this 'image' that is the immortal quality or aspect of life that was removed when Eve brought SIN into the world (Genesis 3:6).

The 'image of God' isn't seen or described in Holy Writ again until the New Covenant. (Colossians 1:15, 2 Corinthians 4:4 etc.) The 'image of God', which is Christ within, seems to be an ill defined quality or quantity for those who aren't familiar with the term. Secular or secularized ideology usually suggests man is innately born with some natural quality that can survive physical death (with or without Christ). This idea originated in ancient Egypt and Babylon, but Genesis 3 teaches it isn't true at all. Ecclesiastes teaches something quite different.

Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. (Ecclesiastes 3:19)

The Vatican adopted Greek & Roman myth regarding the perseverance of the (non-existent) soul. Thus the idea of a Christianized afterlife or underworld had to be adopted. Dante Alighieri's book THE DIVINE COMEDY was meant as political satire, but was accepted by the Vatican as a theological treatise. The myth of Purgatory was thus accepted for financial advantage. 'Prayer cards' were offered so as to bribe loved ones out of the twilight zone between paradise and hell. (These prayer cards are available today at discount on eBay and Amazon.) Protestants got sucked into it and even the Reformation failed to cleanse European churches of the myth of hell.

Finally I agree with you that America will emulate Rome to some extent in that it will continue to trample the rights of conscience. None of the original Bill of Rights are legally binding any longer. 911 and the legislation that followed October 26th deratified the Bill of Rights.

However, I'm not exactly persuaded that this trend is altogether inspired by the Vatican. We may shake hands in the effort as did Hitler and Mussolini in their effort to dominate Europe, but I doubt Catholic influence extends to American global hegemony or growing domestic autocratic oppression. Oddly the American people seem to welcome it. (*)

"It hurts to think," is a quote and attitude of American public school students across the land. They've been conditioned to absorb facts and to regurgitate them when demanded, but they have not been schooled in the finer aspects of true study. Even adults of an earlier generation are loath to study - to collect data, to organize and collate it, and to report their findings in a logical and orderly manner INCLUDING those who still regularly attend church. Instead religious slogans and buzz words are reiterated - manipulation and indoctrination rule the day instead of true study and scriptural consideration.

It goes on and on ad nauseam. I believe we're close to the Day of Final Reckoning, but churches generally don't preach or teach the need for personal repentance. Alas much will be lost that was once thought to be good.

btw - I'm a Messianic Jew.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Even my (older) generation seems to be in the process of denying the liberties we were once taught and which were once proudly lauded. For instance, I remember it was said, "I may disagree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." Few today, including my older generation, admit that this is a quality one wants in American culture. Censorship is trendy today and I fear it won't be long before it becomes law.
I believe this is society today, with it's roots in the American university system, and to a more or less degree, exported around the world. But it's a known philosophy of Jesuit subterfuge, lying, deceiving, even murder if the end justifies the means.

Can I add a little to the above: you have reservations about a couple of things, and I do understand. One thing I didn't mention previously which I think you might like to consider. In Revelation13 it reads thus...
KJV Revelation 13:11-14
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Notice the bold parts. The second beast, which we believe to be the United States, asks the people to form the image to the first beast, the Papacy. That image is a union of church and state. Therefore it's the people of America that demand, whether by popular vote through the ballot box or social unrest or political lobbying we shall soon find out, but we are talking about a democracy here, not a despotic dictator or tyranny... Therefore it must bea result of what Jesus do often warned about, deception. The people are deceived. And they demand for what will ultimately destroy them.
 
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The Learner

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Your revisionist racist remarks are a blatant attempt to justify an agenda that is entirely subversive. ...



"

INTRODUCTION

Between the beginning of the fifteenth century and the end of the eighteenth, millions lived and died as slaves in African Muslim societies. From the Mediterranean coast to the grasslands of West Africa, in the Nile Valley and the Horn, and all along the Indian Ocean littoral, Muslims predominated or exercised great influence. In all these regions slavery was economically, socially, and politically important, and its scale increased throughout our period before reaching wholly unprecedented levels in the nineteenth century. Islamic principles and practices shaped the nature of slavery in Muslim societies, but they did so in uneven and contingent ways. In this chapter, we will examine the ways in which Islamic ideas about slavery were negotiated in the historical experience of Muslim Africans. There are three major components of any system of slavery: reduction of human beings to servitude, distribution of the enslaved within and between societies, and the nature of servitude within a society. These categories are utilitarian, not absolute. Biological reproduction of slaves belongs in categories one and three. Category three implies the continuous reproduction of the meanings of category one without the initial act of capture or birth. Examples could be multiplied. The categories are heuristic aids, not precise hermeneutical tools. In these sections we will survey Islamic legal, intellectual, and moral discourses on slavery in relation to the historical record. This initial discussion will treat themes common to all of Islamic Africa, providing a necessary context."
From: Slavery in Islamic Africa, 1400–1800

from PART I - SLAVERY IN AFRICA AND ASIA MINOR
Published online by Cambridge University Press: 28 September 2011
By Rudolph T. Ware III
Edited by David Eltis and Stanley L. Engerman
 

The Learner

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JOURNAL ARTICLE
AFRO-AMERICAN MUSLIMS—FROM SLAVERY TO FREEDOM
CLYDE-AHMAD WINTERS
Islamic Studies
Vol. 17, No. 4 (Winter 1978), pp. 187-205 (19 pages)
Published By: Islamic Research Institute, International Islamic University, Islamabad
 

The Learner

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East Africa's forgotten slave trade
Silja Fröhlich
08/22/2019August 22, 2019
Over several centuries countless East Africans were sold as slaves by Muslim Arabs to the Middle East and other places via the Sahara desert and Indian Ocean. Experts say it is time for this to be discussed more openly.
...
From Eastern Europe to North Africa

The sale of African slaves can be traced back to antiquity. It became popular in the seventh century when Islam was gaining strength in North Africa. This was seven centuries before Europeans explored the continent and ten centuries before West Africans were sold across the Atlantic to America.
 
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