Just a question

[Illuminator]

Interpretations can continue for quite a while - more than space allows here. However, it should be known that many of the interpretations now accepted by the post-modern protestant church were originally formulated by the Vatican to fog the perceptions of protestant reformers who identified the RCC as the anti-Christ system of Daniel and Revelation.

Hope this helps.

No, it doesn't help. It's inflammatory and insulting. Truth was never "formulated by the Vatican", truth of what has been divinely revealed was and is preserved from error down through every century by the Church you reject. " the perceptions of protestant reformers who identified the RCC as the anti-Christ system of Daniel and Revelation." was based on prejudice, innovative Bible twisting and fallacious reasoning. The reformers simply asserted the CC as the anti-Christ but never proved it.

The fires of the reformation have cooled, allowing Protestant scholars to take a more dispassionate view. If you bother to read the documents of Vatican II, you may discover that the need for a reformation no longer exists. But that is never done, just a bunch of bellyaching about bad popes centuries ago who never taught anything, completely meaningless arguments that have no place in today's world. Anti-Catholicism thrives in our culture because it makes money and meets sick needs.

The Vatican didn't formulate the canon of Scripture, the Church did, as "the Vatican" didn't exist at the time.
The Vatican didn't defend the Trinity against a long list of heretics, the Church did, as "the Vatican" didn't exist at the time.
There was no "Vatican" at the Council of Nicae, which is partially rejected by so called "reformism".

Demonizing the Vatican the way radical made-in-America cults do it relies largely on 18th century Modernism, the synthesis of all heresies. If you are going to argue from history, please do so by citing reputable Protestant historians who wrote after 1960. That way you can avoid the post-enlightenment era nonsense that started infecting Protestantism.

Louis Bouyer contends that the only way to safeguard the positive principles of the Reformation is through the Catholic Church. For only in the Catholic Church are the positive principles the Reformation affirmed found without the negative elements the Reformers mistakenly affixed to them.​

​

Why Only Catholicism Can Make Protestantism Work: Louis Bouyer on the Reformation

Louis Bouyer contends that the only way to safeguard the positive principles of the Reformation is through the Catholic Church. For only in the Catholic Church are the positive principles the Refor…

www.catholiceducation.org

 

[Illuminator]

I wish to further refine your remarks above....

The book of the prophet Daniel uses human-animal hybrids in a textual form to illustrate complex social and political structures. The use of human-animal hybrids is repeated in the book of Revelation. For the sake of clarity these hybrids are meant to convey either a religion, a nation/empire or a system (either religious or political or both).

In Revelation chapter 13 is described a beast rising from the sea. 10 'royal' crowns sprouted out of its head. According to the template established by Daniel, horns represent leaders or a succession of leaders. Thus the royal crowns upon the horns of the sea beast represent a succession of leaders. Who or what is the sea beast? The Bible, not YouTube talking heads, provides correct interpretation. Revelation describes the waters from which the sea beast arises as a global religious system.

Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. (Revelation 17:15)

Revelation 13 presents a striking prophecy of a time when one of the heads/leaders of this system would be struck down.

One of the heads of the beast appeared to be mortally wounded. But the mortal wound was healed, and the whole world marveled and followed the beast. (Revelation 13:3)

This event has ALREADY HAPPENED. (Google it)

Head wound - death of a Pope

In December 1797 a riot took place in Rome and a Brigadier General that had been sent to Rome by Napoleon as part of the diplomatic mission, was killed. Napoleon then sent forces to Rome, defeated the papal forces around Pope Pius VI, and had him transported to Valence, where he died in 1799.

"transported to Valence" where he was thrown into prison?
You're saying Pope Pius VI was "head" of the anti-Christ. Was he the beginning of a succession of anti-Christs, or the end? Please clarify.
Is this the same Pope Pius VI who addressed problems within the pontificate?

(17) The proclamation of the divine word has been entrusted to your faith by divine, not human, authority. So assemble your people and preach to them the gospel of Jesus Christ. From that divine source and heavenly teaching draw draughts of true philosophy for your flock. Persuade them that subjects ought to keep faith and show obedience to those who by God's ordering lead and rule them. To those who are devoted to the ministry of the Church, give proofs of faith, continence, sobriety, knowledge, and liberality, that they may please Him to whom they have proved themselves and boast only of what is serious, moderate, and religious. But above all kindle in the minds of everyone that love for one another which Christ the Lord so often and so specifically praised. For this is the one sign of Christians and the bond of perfection. 9. These are the chief matters on which We wanted to address you in the Lord, Venerable Brothers. We urgently ask that We may personally experience the pleasure of us all harmoniously preserving faithfully the deposit entrusted to Our keeping. But Our sins prevent Us from obtaining this without the prior help of the Lord's mercies. May He favorably aid Us first with his blessings. So, may He forgive Us and strengthen Our weakness in order that Our common prayer may more speedily come into His presence.​

Inscrutabile Encyclical of Pope Pius VI on the Problems of the Pontificate December 25, 1775

Do you mean the same Pius VI who condemned the French Revolution and the suppression of the Gallican Church that resulted from it?
Do you mean the same Pius VI that condemned the Civil Oath adopted by the atheistic French National Assembly.[1]???
Let's get back to Napoleon. He forced a state religion of atheism onto France but you think Pope Pius VI is the anti-Christ.

Healing the wound.....

The Lateran Treaty, also called Lateran Pacts of 1929, treaty (effective June 7, 1929, to June 3, 1985) were signed into law by Mussolini on 11 February 1929. They had three parts: a political treaty (giving the Vatican its own micro-state), a financial convention (giving the Vatican reparations) and a concordat (giving privileges within Italy, for instance by letting the Church influence public education).

The Lateran Treaty and subsequent reestablishment of Vatican City, the seat of Holy See power, was treated with a great world wide celebration. It was even covered by Time magazine and the whole world marveled.....

Wrong. Our whole culture despises the Catholic Church. Made-in-America cults throw fuel on the fire, just like you do.

 

[Illuminator]

The second beast, blah, blah, blah... the perceptions of protestant reformers who identified the RCC as the anti-Christ system of Daniel and Revelation.

Hope this helps.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

No, you are just hollering, and it ain't from any choir loft.

Daniel 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.​

Dan. 2:44 But in the days of those kingdoms the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, and his kingdom shall not be delivered up to another people, and it shall break in pieces, and shall consume all these kingdoms, and itself shall stand for ever.

These 2 verses don't fit in with the anti-Catholic narrative on Daniel, so they are ignored, or given some new age interpretation that no one thought of for 1900 years.

Fixations with 2 chapters of Revelation, leading to absurd interpretations, is unhealthy.

The Book of Revelation and the Mass

Matthew 12:26-28​

​

King James Version​

26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Read full chapter

“THE RITE” EARNS RESPECT​

Catholic League president Bill Donohue comments on movie reviews of “The Rite”:

Unfailingly, whenever there is a TV show or movie that touches on subjects like Transubstantiation—the transformation of bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus—the Virgin birth, apparitions, the stigmata, even confession, it is the subject of ridicule and insulting commentary. But when it comes to the phenomenon of exorcism, it’s hard to find anyone who mocks it.

Catholic League staffers reviewed over 600 movie reviews of “The Rite” that appeared in mainline media outlets. Aside from a few snotty remarks, the subject of exorcism was given a respectful hearing: none was derisive. The cast of “The Rite” was also respectful: none lambasted the idea that demons could be purged by a trained Roman Catholic priest.

This is good news. Evil exists, and everyone save for a fringe minority, admits it. More important, the belief that the devil can be conquered also exists. That the Catholic Church has a mechanism to deal with it is hardly surprising. After all, it was founded by Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
source

Again, 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

They said the same thing about Jesus as anti-Catholics say about the pope. 2000 years and this kingdom is still standing, over a billion strong, in the face of constant resistance from the world. And you think this is accomplished by mere human ingenuity alone? Gimmie a break.

 

[Brakelite]

fueled by the media and entertainment industries, is a growing problem in the United States.

Who has a leading influence and role in the media and entertainment arena of Hollywood? While there are a lot of Jewish names in there, I suggest once again the behind the scenes, the Jews are being thrown under the bus by the same people who fabricated the so called vindication of the Catholic Church during WW2. THE JESUITS.

where he died in 1799.

While he was an individual died in 1799, he was captured by Berthier in 1798. Along with his capture was the demise of the Papal states, and the temporary dissolution of the college of Cardinals. This was seen by numerous political leaders in Europe, and the media of that time, as the death knell to the Papacy. While it wasn't the death knell to the church, it certainly spelt a new era in Vatican politics for it was the end, for the time being, of papal influence in state politics in Europe, which most welcomed. That 1798 date in important, precisely 1260 years after Belisarius overcame the Ostrogoths in Rome, and gave the then bishop of Rome the autonomy promised him by Justinian 5 or so years earlier. While the goths came back, they were nowhere near the strength they once had, and eventually disappeared from history. The 3rd of the 3 horns uprooted before the little horn.

 

[Brakelite]

Is this the same Pope Pius VI who addressed problems within the pontificate?

Who of the Jesuits would have enjoyed the Vatican being reformed? They hated the Protestants, how much more their own 'traitors'. Like Pope John Paul 1.

Do you mean the same Pius VI who condemned the French Revolution

Again, because there is evidence the Jesuits were involved in that little escapade as well, all the more reason to dispatch the malcontent. And who would suspect them when accomplished by an agent such as Napoleon?

He forced a state religion of atheism onto France but you think Pope Pius VI is the anti-Christ

Care to explain that one a little further? Please see below...

 

[Brakelite]

Care to explain that one a little further?

Sorry, I understand. You were referring to Napoleon. Again though, through secret societies and in particular freemasonry, the Jesuits have a spectacular hold on numerous people. That included Napoleon, Stalin, Roosevelt, and Churchill: it includes the royal family of Britain all of whom belong to associated knighthoods and the like, as well as their American and European counterparts in the knights of Malta and Columbus.

In biblical terms, while certain popes may have embraced the spirit of Antichrist, there were no doubt a few that mourned the direction their church had taken. But it isn't individual Popes who fulfilled the criteria demanded of prophecy regarding the Antichrist anyway, so your objection is technically a strawmen, despite many believing the Pope/Antichrist paradigm.
The little horn of Daniel 7, the sea beast of Revelation 13, and the 'man of sin' spoken of by Paul, all of them personifications or emblematic of the same entity. The criteria and characteristics that the prophecies regarding this enemy to Christ and His people demands can only be found in an institution that outlives any person. And the only institution that fulfills all the criteria without exception is the Catholic Church, notwithstanding the fact that many within that church are genuine Christians, which is why it is said that God has His people in Babylon, and calls them out.

 

[n2thelight]

"In Genesis 1:26 God says, “Let Us make man (adam) in Our image, according to Our likeness.” Then 1:27 describes his creative action: “So God created man (adam) in His own image; He created him in the image of God; He created them male and female.”[1] The “image of God” relates to one or more of the following: 1) the mental and spiritual faculties that people share with God; 2) the appointment of humankind as God’s representatives on earth; and 3) a capacity to relate to God. Yet what is clear is that being created in “the image of God” is a spectacular blessing; it is what distinguishes people from animals."

What does the Bible say about race?

Any serious biblical study of race or ethnicity should start in Genesis 1. The Bible does not start off with the creation of a special or privileged race of people. When the first human being is created he is simply called Adam, which is Hebrew for “humankind.”

obu.edu

Adam was not the first person though

 

[Jim B]

Adam was not the first person though

Which person was before Adam?

 

[The Learner]

No, it doesn't help. It's inflammatory and insulting. Truth was never "formulated by the Vatican", truth of what has been divinely revealed was and is preserved from error down through every century by the Church you reject. " the perceptions of protestant reformers who identified the RCC as the anti-Christ system of Daniel and Revelation." was based on prejudice, innovative Bible twisting and fallacious reasoning. The reformers simply asserted the CC as the anti-Christ but never proved it.

The fires of the reformation have cooled, allowing Protestant scholars to take a more dispassionate view. If you bother to read the documents of Vatican II, you may discover that the need for a reformation no longer exists. But that is never done, just a bunch of bellyaching about bad popes centuries ago who never taught anything, completely meaningless arguments that have no place in today's world. Anti-Catholicism thrives in our culture because it makes money and meets sick needs.

The Vatican didn't formulate the canon of Scripture, the Church did, as "the Vatican" didn't exist at the time.
The Vatican didn't defend the Trinity against a long list of heretics, the Church did, as "the Vatican" didn't exist at the time.
There was no "Vatican" at the Council of Nicae, which is partially rejected by so called "reformism".

Demonizing the Vatican the way radical made-in-America cults do it relies largely on 18th century Modernism, the synthesis of all heresies. If you are going to argue from history, please do so by citing reputable Protestant historians who wrote after 1960. That way you can avoid the post-enlightenment era nonsense that started infecting Protestantism.

Louis Bouyer contends that the only way to safeguard the positive principles of the Reformation is through the Catholic Church. For only in the Catholic Church are the positive principles the Reformation affirmed found without the negative elements the Reformers mistakenly affixed to them.​

​

Why Only Catholicism Can Make Protestantism Work: Louis Bouyer on the Reformation

Louis Bouyer contends that the only way to safeguard the positive principles of the Reformation is through the Catholic Church. For only in the Catholic Church are the positive principles the Refor…

www.catholiceducation.org

The other guy has drank the hislop Kool-Aid.

 

[The Learner]

Which person was before Adam?

no idea

 

[Illuminator]

Sorry, I understand. You were referring to Napoleon. Again though, through secret societies and in particular freemasonry, the Jesuits have a spectacular hold on numerous people. That included Napoleon, Stalin, Roosevelt, and Churchill: it includes the royal family of Britain all of whom belong to associated knighthoods and the like, as well as their American and European counterparts in the knights of Malta and Columbus.

In biblical terms, while certain popes may have embraced the spirit of Antichrist, there were no doubt a few that mourned the direction their church had taken. But it isn't individual Popes who fulfilled the criteria demanded of prophecy regarding the Antichrist anyway, so your objection is technically a strawmen, despite many believing the Pope/Antichrist paradigm.
The little horn of Daniel 7, the sea beast of Revelation 13, and the 'man of sin' spoken of by Paul, all of them personifications or emblematic of the same entity. The criteria and characteristics that the prophecies regarding this enemy to Christ and His people demands can only be found in an institution that outlives any person. And the only institution that fulfills all the criteria without exception is the Catholic Church, notwithstanding the fact that many within that church are genuine Christians, which is why it is said that God has His people in Babylon, and calls them out.

I think it's time to put you back on ignore, as do hundreds of other members. I don't debate with your demons.

 

[Brakelite]

I think it's time to put you back on ignore, as do hundreds of other members. I don't debate with your demons.

That's what the Pharisees said to Jesus. I am interested though how you know there are others who have me on ignore. I didn't know members had access to that information.

 

[Keturah]

Adam was not the first person though

Hmmmmmm !

 

[n2thelight]

Agreed, no true Christian would persecute blacks or anybody else..:)
I watched '12 Years a Slave' for the first time yesterday and just as I expected it was full of anti-white pol-correct propaganda far from the truth.
To its credit though, it did feature several whites (notably Cumberbatch and Brad Pitt) who were sympathetic to the slaves plight.
Also to its credit in one scene a black- repeat black- overseer was whipping the slaves in the cotton field to get more work out of them.

What the heck is a true Christian , thinking all think they are . And if that's the case why did the so called true Christians not stand up for the wrong .

This country was built for free , and you wonder why the black race is upset, you talk about 911 yet the first terrorist here was the white man , , people pulled themselves up by the boot straps and what happened , we got bombed . Speaking of Tulsa .

 

[Adventageous]

What's the difference between Muslims beheading Christians if they don't conform to their religion , and the Christians that did the same thing .

Oh, and I'm not a Muslim

Absolutely nothing. They are of the same 'father':

Joh_8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The only problem with your question is not with the word "Muslims", as Islam does teach to persecute and murder (sources upon request), but real Christians do not. Catholicism does teach the same as Islam, as Islam is rooted in it, and apostate Protestantism (not real Protestantism) has done like their "Mother" (Revelation 17).

Joh_16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

 

[Adventageous]

Let's get back to Napoleon. He forced a state religion of atheism onto France but you think Pope Pius VI is the anti-Christ.

Yes, the Pope (even tha Papacy) is "AntiChrist" (Vicarivs Christi), which is what all the Reformers understood from scripture, and put it into print.

As for the French and France, that was instigated by the Jesuit order, to pull a disappearing act of AntiChrist.

• Adam Weishaupt (one of the authors of the Jacobins and French Illuminati, which stems from Spanish Alumbradismos, of which Ignatius Loyola himself was brought under charges before the Inquisition (led then, by the Dominicans, see Melchor Cano)) was a Jesuit.
• Maximillian Robespierre was educated in a Jesuit school.
• Joseph-Ignace Guillotin was also educated by the Jesuits (and he was the namesake of the Guillotine machine).
• Voltaire was a known Jesuit, playing the part needed.

"Weishaupt and his fellow Jesuits cut off the income to the Vatican by launching and leading the French Revolution; by directing Napoleon’s conquest of Catholic Europe; [and]...by eventually having Napoleon throw Pope Pius VII in jail at Avignon until he agreed, as the price of his release, to reestablish the Jesuit Order. This Jesuit war on the Vatican was terminated by the Congress of Vienna and by the secret, 1822, Treaty of Verona." - Emanuel M. Josephson (American Historian), The “Federal” Reserve Conspiracy and Rockefellers (New York: Chedney Press, 1968): 4-5.​

​

"... (Page 454) But it was not so in France. No stringent measures had been taken to see the decree of expulsion executed. The Jesuits, it is true, had disappeared from their colleges and houses. and dropped the long mantle and large-brimmed hat; but a great part of them remained in the French territory, changing residences, and many of them metamorphosing themsleves into the Fathers of the Faith, or the Brethren of the Doctrine Chretienne. Then, (page 454-455) when the opportunity presented itself, they re-appeared everywhere in their own garb, and nobody knew whence they came, or where they had been. ..." - History of the Jesuits: their origin, progress, doctrines, and designs by Giovanni Battista Nicolini (1854), page 454-455.​

​

Later, others like French Jesuit Pierre Teilhard de Chardin would continue the work, with his evolutionary frauds in Britain ('Piltdown man') and abroad (China, Tibet, Xinjiang, Burma, &c).​

​

For Atheism, and Catholicism "speak lies at one table", as both are of the same coin, just opposite sides (Secular humanism of France, and Religious Humanism of Rome, for both are the worship of man).​

 

[Heart2Soul]

Specific examples?

Instead of generic accusations, please provide factual examples. Caution: perverse non-fact based instances can be quickly disproved with the result that their use will make the writer look like a fool.

As I understand it you are parroting racist dogma and mixing it with pseudo-atheistic bigotry.

Consequently I cannot respond with any clarification that will even remotely address your intrinsic hatred of anything which has spring from our Judeo-Christian heritage - also called Western culture. Hatred and bigotry doesn't respond to logic and fact. Do you?

If you do respond to logic and fact, then please tell me what the first and second commandments are; exhalted in churches and synagogues that have not yet forgotten their spiritual roots.

Some may say religious folks aren't perfect. That's not accurate for it is religious folks that are the pillar of modern society. Those that seek to destroy it must first attack society at its root, must first cripple the pillars - or at least convince the gang that follows them that they've had a go at it.

If you are willing to engage in specific examples and an intellectual exchange of ideas then let's get it on.

If you only wish to disparage good and decent folks who live their lives and do their best to respect their neighbors, live decently and lawfully , who contribute to their community and who worship the Almighty one true God of heaven then be prepared for an argument that will strike to the bone of doctrines of demons as well as politically debauched agendas.

On the other hand, if you really wish to learn something we can discuss that too.

What'll it be Brakes......

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Heart2Soul]

This thread is done... it is so far from the OP that I can't even remember what this thread was suppose to be about.