23 major reasons to reject the Premil doctrine!

[Truth7t7]

What can I say, the scope of prophecy is abundantly clear that Messiah will reign upon the earth for a 1000 yrs.

Don't say it, it's not true, it's a fabricated fairy tale of man!

 

[Timtofly]

Quite the opposite. Revelation is full of recaps. Revelation 19:11-16, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

A plain reading of the passage before us reveals that Christ is coming back with wrath to execute judgment and destroy all those left behind. He is not going to reward men for their rebellion by leading them unto the glorified new earth. Neither is Christ coming to engage in some ill-fated war against evil for a thousand years – that is not remotely in the text. The King of kings and Lord of lords will not have to fight for victory. He already won that decisively at the cross.

Christ is seen pouring out His wrath without mixture upon the nations as He smites them in His fury with “a sharp sword” that comes “out of his mouth.” What is the result of this act? It shall “smite the nations” that have missed the catching away. This is what awaits the nations. They are going to be smitten. The word for “smite” in this text is the Greek word patasso, which means to strike with a weapon or to smite fatally. It means to smite down, cut down, to kill, slay.

Let us be clear: Heis coming to smite down the nations, not corral them into some sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted millennial age. It says that “he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” This is not a pretty sight. This is not loose talk by God. This is not something that the nations should look forward to. What awaits the nations that have rejected Christ is utter destruction and devastation. The nations left behind are totally destroyed. Christ destroys them by the very utterance of His mouth.

The two words interpreted “fierceness” and “wrath” here are thumos and orge which are regularly employed in the New Testament to mean ‘fierceness, indignation, wrath and vengeance’. The word orge carries the additional meaning of ‘violent passion’. Clearly the Lord is not happy with those left behind. Like those left behind in Noah’s day and Sodom they face an awful end, as they receive the reward of their rejection of Christ.

Revelation 19:17-18 continues, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Please see that the wicked are destroyed by the sword of His voice. This is complete wholesale total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

The feasting part of the marriage supper of the Lamb is a symbolism depicted the destruction of the wicked. Why can this not be a symbolic depiction of the return of Christ and the events that accompany it (including the destruction of the wicked)?

The first part of the narrative outlines a detailed account of the assignment given to “the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven” by the heavenly messenger. The “fowls” are instructed to “come and gather” themselves “together unto the supper of the great God” in order that they would “eat”:

1. The flesh of kings,
2. The flesh of captains,
3. The flesh of mighty men,
4. The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
5. The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

This passage powerfully and solemnly reveals the full extent of the devastation that is to be focused upon the wicked on the day of God’s wrath. In perfect keeping with the rest of Scripture, this narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs will be immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7) – everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.

The whole thrust of this reading surrounds a climactic end to the world. Like the rest of Scripture, it records the complete rescue of the saints in the “marriage of the lamb” and the complete destruction of the wicked when the fowls consume the entire wicked left behind. The passage makes no allowance for goats-survivors in this great destruction passage or mortals squeezing into a supposed future millennium. This reading seems to fit in with the scriptural pattern of an all-consummating Coming - all the wicked being consumed.

What about the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet? Nothing happens to any of them at Armageddon?

 

[WPM]

What about the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet? Nothing happens to any of them at Armageddon?

Revelation focuses in on the different subject-matters in the different parallels. As you dive into the book of Revelation it is important to recognize that it is not chronological. It is a series of recaps. It is a number of repetitions describing the spiritual battle going on during the intra-Advent period. It presents different camera views of the same game (mainly, the period between Christ's First Advent and His Second Advent). Sometimes when one is watching a sports game, the camera is close in on the action, sometimes it presents a broad panoramic view of the game. Sometimes it is focused on the coaches, sometimes it is focused on the players, other times, it is focused on the fans. The book Revelation is a bit like that. Sinclair Ferguson describes the apocalypse as: “Recapitulatory and progressive parallelism.”

What we are looking at is a spiritual revelation of our Savior revealed to us in symbolic form. We get a general overview of the story. We then have an expansion of particular aspects of that story. Scripture often does that.

Revelation 1-22 consists of a number of figurative prophetic parallels (most believe seven in total) revealing the overall battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. They relate, like every other New Testament book, to the period running between the first and Second Advents. John basically goes behind the scenes into the spiritual realm and articulates in symbolic form the enormity of the great conflict between light and darkness. In the book of Revelation, we get a perceptive insight into the invisible realm.

Parallels are simply different camera views of the same corresponding intra-Advent period which look at different aspects of the great battle between darkness and light. Basically, it is telling the same story from different angles.

 

[Timtofly]

LOL. It is "gotcha" because you promote teaching that is not in God's Book. The reason why you have nothing is because there is nothing. You know what the rest of us know - there is nowhere in Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by seven-year tribulation, followed by a third coming of the Lord.

You do not seem to understand the difference between the wrath of God and the tribulation of Satan. You invent some imaginary 7 years trib that is not taught in Scripture and cannot be found anywhere in the sacred text.

No it is called misrepresenting the poster with vague "gotchas" existing in your mind as fake windmills that need to be knocked over.

Not all pre-mill are the same. Not all Amil are the same. If you have not figured that out, you have put on an air tight bag over your head. Yes, that implies a strong ideology from a lack of oxygen.

Perhaps those going around with an air tight ideology, should remove that plastic bag from around their head, and step back and take a breath of fresh air?

Do you think the 6th Seal is opened in Revelation 19 on the battlefield of Armageddon?

 

[Timtofly]

No. Where is that in Rev 19? It seems like you are cobbling Scripture together to support your claims. That is Premil in a nutshell. The beast's followers are all who are not redeemed. The Premil antichrist only holds influence over a select few.

And you don't cobble together all the OT mentions of "thousand" to back up your Amil eschatology?

 

[Trekson]

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Yep, and after that, there will be Armageddon followed by the sheep and goat judgment and then the total fulfillment of Dan. 9:24 when the nation of Israel brings in everlasting righteousness, the Messiah for the true and eternal triumphal entry.

 

[WPM]

And you don't cobble together all the OT mentions of "thousand" to back up your Amil eschatology?

You are avoiding my point again.

 

[Timtofly]

Revelation focuses in on the different subject-matters in the different parallels. As you dive into the book of Revelation it is important to recognize that it is not chronological. It is a series of recaps. It is a number of repetitions describing the spiritual battle going on during the intra-Advent period. It presents different camera views of the same game (mainly, the period between Christ's First Advent and His Second Advent). Sometimes when one is watching a sports game, the camera is close in on the action, sometimes it presents a broad panoramic view of the game. Sometimes it is focused on the coaches, sometimes it is focused on the players, other times, it is focused on the fans. The book Revelation is a bit like that. Sinclair Ferguson describes the apocalypse as: “Recapitulatory and progressive parallelism.”

What we are looking at is a spiritual revelation of our Savior revealed to us in symbolic form. We get a general overview of the story. We then have an expansion of particular aspects of that story. Scripture often does that.

Revelation 1-22 consists of a number of figurative prophetic parallels (most believe seven in total) revealing the overall battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. They relate, like every other New Testament book, to the period running between the first and Second Advents. John basically goes behind the scenes into the spiritual realm and articulates in symbolic form the enormity of the great conflict between light and darkness. In the book of Revelation, we get a perceptive insight into the invisible realm.

Parallels are simply different camera views of the same corresponding intra-Advent period which look at different aspects of the great battle between darkness and light. Basically, it is telling the same story from different angles.

You totally avoided the question.

 

[Timtofly]

You are avoiding my point again.

So you can cobble Scripture together, but no one else can? That seems to be your point.

 

[WPM]

You totally avoided the question.

You are running out of things to say.

 

[Timtofly]

You are running out of things to say.

Still avoiding.... Is the 6th Seal opened on the battlefield of Armageddon?

 

[WPM]

Still avoiding.... Is the 6th Seal opened on the battlefield of Armageddon?

Not so. Addressing every point. Yes!

 

[Timtofly]

Not so. Addressing every point. Yes!

I will just guess that you claim the 6th Seal is opened at the battle of Armageddon.

 

[WPM]

I will just guess that you claim the 6th Seal is opened at the battle of Armageddon.

The 6th Seal is the end of the world!

 

[rockytopva]

The 6th Seal is the end of the world!

Before the coming of Christ and the millennial reign...

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. - Revelation 19
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison. - Revelation 20

 

[WPM]

Before the coming of Christ and the millennial reign...

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. - Revelation 19
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison. - Revelation 20

Only if you take Revelation chronological, invent a new age unknown to the rest of Scripture and ignore the climactic detail of Revelation 19.

 

[Keraz]

Only if you take Revelation chronological, invent a new age unknown to the rest of Scripture and ignore the climactic detail of Revelation 19.

The Millennial Age is not unknown to the rest of Scripture, Zechariah 14:15-21,+
And Revelation 19 is not climatic, as in the end of the world. Satan and his armies are defeated; then the wonderful age of Jesus as the benevolent ruler will come.

The 6th Seal is the end of the world!

The sequence of judgements/ punishments as revealed by Jesus to John in Revelation, will occur as written and the next event will be the Sixth seal, the Great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, the Day the Lord destroys His enemies. All the graphically described effects of a worldwide devastation will happen by the means He will use, a Coronal Mass Ejection, Isaiah 30:26, which will literally fulfil all the prophecies.
The world will recover and to maintain order, a One World Govt will be established. The faithful Christian peoples will not be a part of it.

 

[robert derrick]

I want to list some of the issues that forced me to eventually abandon Premillennialism and embrace Amillennialism.

I knew there was something personal about this with some people, so that it's spoken of like it were about salvation and justification of Christ today.

I mean, who has to really 'search their heart' and be 'compelled' to believe The Lord's Millennium or not? He either rules on earth or He doesn't. The only thing that really matters is being in the first resurrection. Afterward, it's all good no matter what we do, and where we go.

The only thing of importance about the Millennium, that I've come to learn is that it will be the greatest harvest of souls to the Lord ever on earth.

Other than that, I don't personally care one way or the other, other than the fact of certain prophesies needing to be fulfilled on earth, so as not to be proven false. And those who reject His Millennium plainly show they don't care about any great harvest either, but only getting to watch fire come down and destroy everyone that isn't like them.

My main reason for abandoning Premil was the severe lack of corroboration. I had a major issue with that!

Once again, who 'abandons' a teaching, as it were a sinking ship? Other than something having to do with us falling from grace.

 

[WPM]

The Millennial Age is not unknown to the rest of Scripture, Zechariah 14:15-21,+

Ok. Could you please do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20? I see no correlation.

And Revelation 19 is not climatic, as in the end of the world. Satan and his armies are defeated; then the wonderful age of Jesus as the benevolent ruler will come.

Revelation 19 is climactic. It is the end of the world and the end of the wicked. It therefore forbids the Premil paradigm.
Christ is seen pouring out His wrath without mixture upon the nations as He smites them in His fury with “a sharp sword” that comes “out of his mouth.” What is the result of this act? It shall “smite the nations” that have missed the catching away. This is what awaits the nations. They are going to be smitten. The word for “smite” in this text is the Greek word patasso, which means to strike with a weapon or to smite fatally. It means to smite down, cut down, to kill, slay.

Let us be clear: He is Coming to smite down the nations, not corral them into some sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted millennial age. It says that “he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” This is not a pretty sight. This is not loose talk by God. This is not something that the nations should look forward to. What awaits the nations that have rejected Christ is utter destruction and devastation. The nations left behind are totally destroyed. Christ destroys them by the very utterance of His mouth.

The two words interpreted “fierceness” and “wrath” here are thumos and orge which are regularly employed in the New Testament to mean ‘fierceness, indignation, wrath and vengeance’. The word orge carries the additional meaning of ‘violent passion’. Clearly the Lord is not happy with those left behind. Like those left behind in Noah’s day and Sodom they face an awful end, as they receive the reward of their rejection of Christ.

The picture being portrayed here is that of the grapes being crushed by the vineyard worker making wine – only trodden in righteous anger. The reference to “the winepress” is symbolic language denoting the fate of the wicked when Christ appears – that is why it is called “the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” The Christ-rejecter misses the catching away, and is consequently trampled underfoot like grapes being crushed in a winepress. The grapes are the disobedient of all nations. How can these rebels possibly escape such a furious end? True judgment and righteousness has now arrived in the form of Christ and the glorified saints. Like every other Second Coming passage, this is climactic language describing the final end of rebellious man.

It is hard to think how the Holy Spirit could have used more cogent illustrations to show the annihilation of the wicked. Rather than showing their gracious preservation from the wrath of God they are actually seen to be the focus of His awful fury at His return. Rather than being welcomed into some supposed glorious future millennial kingdom the ungodly are shown to be decimated at the second coming. The wicked are likened unto grapes that are crushed in the vineyard and a clay pot that is broken to bits when found to be flawed and unusable. How can anyone impute blessing upon the recipients of this fiery destruction? How could anyone turn the wrath of the Lord upon the wicked in Revelation 2 and 19 into some kind of spiritual blessing?

The sequence of judgements/ punishments as revealed by Jesus to John in Revelation, will occur as written and the next event will be the Sixth seal, the Great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, the Day the Lord destroys His enemies. All the graphically described effects of a worldwide devastation will happen by the means He will use, a Coronal Mass Ejection, Isaiah 30:26, which will literally fulfil all the prophecies.
The world will recover and to maintain order, a One World Govt will be established. The faithful Christian peoples will not be a part of it.

The apocalypse generally presents metaphorical pictures of the intra-Advent period culminating in the glorious return of Christ. This is shown from different camera views. Each parallel addresses different aspects of the overall supernatural battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness.

It is a victorious book. The whole focus is Christ, and what He achieved on our behalf, and how He now exercises sovereign dominion over Satan and the powers of darkness today.

 

[robert derrick]

• The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation.

This second coming teaching, is the exact same the Jews demanded with His first coming, which is why He was rejected.

The only christ at the end of these last days, making fire come down out of heaven in sight of men, will be the last great antichrist coming on earth.

Not Jesus Christ.

That last great beast will be made specifically for them, that itch to see fire come down out of heaven to burn up everyone else.

I honestly would rather be a part of the greatest harvest on earth, than the greatest devouring of all flesh, since the flood.

Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live.

That is the Lord's heart coming in the flesh, today, and coming again in the air.

• Scripture makes clear: now is the day of salvation.

Correct. So long as men are on earth.

• There is no more salvation after that.

What a wish.

• They present their future millennium to be perfect pristine paradise of peace and harmony

Something wrong with that?

• when in fact it ends up the biggest religious bust in history, as billions of wicked as the sand of the sea overrun the Premil millennium.

And here we have open mockery of the Lord's personal reign on earth.

With no regard for all the harvested souls therein.

• Their age is just 'more of the same'.

I.e. judging the Lord as unable to rule the earth with peace, and law and order.

• There is more sin and sinners, more death and disease, more war and terror

Not if they're all burned up, right?

• The idyllic setting of the lamb enjoying sweet communion with the wolf, the bullock eating straw with the lion, the little kid-goat lying peaceably beside the leopard, the cow and the bear grazing happily together

Is utterly dull compared to frying flesh all over the earth.