Why did Jesus tell the thief he would be with Him in paradise that same day?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Dec 2, 2022
67
16
8
38
Vermont
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I know the scriptures well Jason.....and this is no popping.
The devil's first lie was 'thou shalt not surely die.' It seems the larger majority of the Christian world has believed the lie. They wrestle to fit the scriptures into this lie.
You believe death is the absence of consciousness etc... Death is the absence of Life. You are still animate in death though your body is not because you are no longer in it but you have no life. You say you know the scriptures but if you knew the sciptures, you wouldn't be talking about the Spirit in terms of an expression. You probably don't even know which Spirit if the Spirit of the Lord. The Spirit is an entity bud. You should pick up an Authorized King James Version and study the Spirit. You may read the scriptures and can recite them but to speak of The Spirit in such a manner proves you don't know the sciptures. Nor do you comprehend death or life. Oh and to believe that was Satan's first lie.. ha!!! Bud you need to go back to the drawing board.
 

quietthinker

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2018
11,562
7,587
113
FNQ
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
You believe death is the absence of consciousness etc... Death is the absence of Life. You are still animate in death though your body is not because you are no longer in it but you have no life. You say you know the scriptures but if you knew the sciptures, you wouldn't be talking about the Spirit in terms of an expression. You probably don't even know which Spirit if the Spirit of the Lord. The Spirit is an entity bud. You should pick up an Authorized King James Version and study the Spirit. You may read the scriptures and can recite them but to speak of The Spirit in such a manner proves you don't know the sciptures. Nor do you comprehend death or life. Oh and to believe that was Satan's first lie.. ha!!! Bud you need to go back to the drawing board.
It is clear, there is no ambiguity who you believe in this matter!
 
  • Like
Reactions: JasonTheServent

Robert Gwin

Well-Known Member
Mar 19, 2021
6,888
1,587
113
69
Central Il
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus said He would be 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth following His crucifixion in Matthew 12:40

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth

But Jesus also said to the thief on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise" Luke 23:43

And Jesus said unto him,Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise

So this seems like a contradiction, doesn't it? Was He in two places at once? The heart of the earth, where Jesus went to preach to the spirits in captivity as per 1 Peter 3:19, is surely not paradise by any stretch of the imagination.

Acts 1:2-3 mentions that He had not yet ascended to heaven, but was with them for 40 days.

...until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen
After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God


John 20:17 Jesus tells Mary not to cling to Him for He had not ascended yet.

Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God

Acts 1:9-11 describes precisely when Jesus ascends to heaven.

After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight
They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them.
Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”


Question: why did Jesus tell the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise "today" when scripture clearly teaches that Jesus descended to the realm of the dead and then resurrected to spend 40 days with His disciples?

Answer: The best answer I can think of is simply that God views time differently than we do, I guess.

Can anyone resolve this seeming contradiction?
Actually he didn't tell him that! Why? Because Jesus wasn't even in paradise for another 40 days. The criminal would not even be resurrected as one of those of the first resurrection as he was not there for the outpouring of holy spirit 50 days later. He will however be resurrected when the resurrection occurs after the start of the millennial reign of Christ, and will reside in paradise just as Jesus said Friend.
 
Dec 2, 2022
67
16
8
38
Vermont
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It's so sad that yall divide the scriptures and only take what fits in your comprehension of things and when someone comes with enlightenment using the scriptures as a whole and not just taking what fits in a box that was fabricated by a carnal mind and reject the truth because i doesn't fit in your box. A man that is wise in his own eyes can not learn anything from anyone else and becomes foolish in his own thoughts.
 

stormymonday

Member
Dec 25, 2022
83
17
8
concord
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
A little logic goes a long way in understanding simple things. It's beyond me why a dying man hanging on a cross would find it necessary to tell another dying man hanging on a cross that what he's telling him - he's telling him - TODAY! Jesus never used that type of vocabulary! Jesus is clearly saying that the penitent thief would be with Him in paradise on the same day - TODAY - this very day!

Vines...

The clause containing semeron is sometimes introduced by the conjunction hoti, "that," e.g., Mar 14:30; Luk 4:21; 19:9; sometimes without the conjunction, e.g., Luk 22:34; 23:43, where "today" is to be attached to the next statement, "shalt thou be with Me;" there are no grammatical reasons for the insistence that the connection must be with the statement "Verily I say unto thee," nor is such an idea necessitated by examples from either the Sept. or the NT; the connection given in the AV and RV is right.
 

Webers_Home

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2012
4,612
726
113
80
Oregon
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
.
Acts 2:31a . . his soul was not left in Hades

Classical Hades is divided into sections where the souls of the dead--
regardless of age, race, gender, or religious preference --are assigned in
accordance with the quality of their pre-death existence. The worst section
is a deep abyss called Tartarus; which is utilized in 2Pet 2:4.

Luke 23:13 says Jesus' soul waited for his body's recovery in a better
section of Hades he called paradise; translated from a Greek word for parks
and recreation, i.e. an Eden.

According to Luke 16:23 the poor slobs over in the hell section of Hades can
look across to paradise and see what they're missing: sort of like destitute
street urchins gazing thru the window of a posh restaurant at what people
have on their plates; which speaks very loudly of want and privation.


FAQ: Paradise is down in the netherworld?

REPLY: The Pacific Crest Trail (a.k.a. PCT) traverses the north/south length
of three states-- California, Oregon, and Washington. No matter where
trekkers might be located on the trail at any given moment-- whether south
in Campo San Diego, or crossing the Columbia River on the Bridge Of The
Gods 2,140 trail-miles to the north in Cascade Locks Oregon --they're all on
the very same PCT.

Paradise is sort of like that. There's a piece of it in the netherworld (Matt
12:40, Luke 16:19-31) another in a celestial region that Paul labeled the
third heaven (2Cor 12:2-4) and yet another is located with God. (Rev 2:7)
_
 

ElieG12

Well-Known Member
Oct 8, 2022
915
266
63
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Clearly some people do not want to know the truth about what the Scriptures really say. Dialogue is obviously useless with these people, they only waste the time of others, even though they already know the answer they are going to receive... even so, they only provoke useless discussions:

"it is so because it says so",
"it says so in an inexact translation",
"you don't accept that translation because it doesn't suit you",
"take into account the original language",
"you don't know more than the translator I'm quoting",
"you have to realize that this translation is incorrect due to the biblical context" ,
"you don't want to believe because you don't know... blablabla".

It is an endless discussion. Some people don't care about the truth; they just want to generate traffic here.
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,509
12,929
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Question: why did Jesus tell the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise "today" when scripture clearly teaches that Jesus descended to the realm of the dead and then resurrected to spend 40 days with His disciples?

Answer: The best answer I can think of is simply that God views time differently than we do, I guess.

Can anyone resolve this seeming contradiction?

Paradise is Where the Tree of Life IS.
First, in the Garden of Eden.
Next, in the “comfort” side of Hell. (Also called “Abraham’s bosom”.)
Now, in Heaven.
Last, shall be ON the renewed Earth.

When the malefactor hanging next to Jesus, confessed his Belief in Jesus, that man became Sav-ed.

A soul IN a man IS accounted Saved, when that man confesses Belief.
The SAVING occurs once a mans physical body is dead.
(God requires all natural body’s must die.
God can not quicken a mans body’s to a spiritual body, unless it first die it’s natural life.
Mans life...of a mans seed...natural, must die.
Mans life...of Gods seed......spiritual, can never die.)
Living men “today”, “crucified with Christ”, are pledging their body once Physically DEAD, unto God, and is an acceptable Offering provided by God, to satisfy the requirement of man must die Once.

Hell was revealed having a division of a great gulf. One side had the Tree of Life to sustain the departed Saved living souls. The other side was/IS where departed Unsaved living souls are SENT and experiencing torments.

The purpose of Division of hell was effected from the beginning of mankind, unto the day, of Jesus’ bodily death, His body buried, His living soul departed went to hell to preach to other souls in hell.

Jesus is first in ALL things. Departed living souls of men thus all went to hell, comfort side, with the Tree of Life, ie Paradise.
After Jesus living soul went to hell......and left, (returned to His body, and some 40 days later), His body, soul, spirit, rose up and returned to Heaven...
Thereafter all departed Saved Living souls, could go up Heaven;
With the Tree of Life, ie Paradise, and WAIT, to the day their body is risen in glory.

Once the earth is renewed, and all the faithful and converted are on earth with God, (Void of unbelieving men and Void of demonic fallen angels)
the Tree of Life, ie Paradise shall be On earth....where it was in the Beginning IN the Garden of Eden.

When Jesus said the one malefactor SHALL be with Him today in Paradise, He was speaking specifically of that mans Saved departed Living soul.

Any questions, welcome to ask.

Glory to God,
Taken
 
  • Like
Reactions: RLT63

quietthinker

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2018
11,562
7,587
113
FNQ
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
A little logic goes a long way in understanding simple things. It's beyond me why a dying man hanging on a cross would find it necessary to tell another dying man hanging on a cross that what he's telling him - he's telling him - TODAY! Jesus never used that type of vocabulary! Jesus is clearly saying that the penitent thief would be with Him in paradise on the same day - TODAY - this very day!

Vines...

The clause containing semeron is sometimes introduced by the conjunction hoti, "that," e.g., Mar 14:30; Luk 4:21; 19:9; sometimes without the conjunction, e.g., Luk 22:34; 23:43, where "today" is to be attached to the next statement, "shalt thou be with Me;" there are no grammatical reasons for the insistence that the connection must be with the statement "Verily I say unto thee," nor is such an idea necessitated by examples from either the Sept. or the NT; the connection given in the AV and RV is right.
Only unfamiliarity with your Bible can say 'A little logic goes a long way in understanding simple things. It's beyond me why a dying man hanging on a cross would find it necessary to tell another dying man hanging on a cross that what he's telling him - he's telling him - TODAY! Jesus never used that type of vocabulary! Jesus is clearly saying that the penitent thief would be with Him in paradise on the same day - TODAY - this very day! ....particularly where I have highlighted in red.
 

RLT63

Well-Known Member
Apr 24, 2022
3,256
1,842
113
Montgomery
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
One translates to a large degree on how one sees....that's how it works. If you believe you go to heaven when you die you would probably put the comma where many translators have put it however, when you take all things into consideration surrounding the crucifixion and resurrection it becomes clear the comma has been placed in the wrong spot.

The most obvious is when Mary met Jesus at the tomb early Sunday morning she clung to him and Jesus said to her in John 20:17 'Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'

This tells us that Jesus hadn't gone to paradise/heaven yet. He had been dead in the tomb, thus the resurrection three days later. This indicates that the comma was placed in an incorrect position. The comma after 'today' instead of before makes everything consistent with the record......and inconsistent with the idea that one goes to heaven immediately one dies.

So, to answer your question, the translators were in error regarding where they placed the comma :)
I don’t think so
 

Adventageous

Active Member
Oct 28, 2022
367
95
28
Noneya
archive.org
Faith
Christian
Country
United States

Why did Jesus tell the thief he would be with Him in paradise that same day?​


He didn't. He said:

See Study 02 - 13 Bible Studies (PDF), Prophecy, History, Theology, Legacy by brother Aaron Earnest : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

QUESTION: WHAT ABOUT THE THIEF ON THE CROSS, DIDN’T JESUS SAY TO HIM THAT HE WOULD BE WITH JESUS IN “PARADISE” THAT DAY WHEN THEY DIED?

No. Read the passage carefully, for the thief asked Jesus to “remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom”, which Jesus had not received yet (Dan. 2:44, 7:13-14,27; Luk. 19:12):​
Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day[,] shalt thou be with me in paradise.​
Jesus, even three days after He had died (Jhn. 10:17; Rev. 1:18, 2:8; death is an enemy, not a friend, 1 Cor. 15:26), and was buried (descended to “hell”, aka grave; Psa. 16;10; Act. 2:27; Rom. 10:7; Eph. 4:9-10), remained in the tomb (Job 21:32), where He lay (Mat. 28:6), was not yet resurrected (Mat. 27:63), and had not yet ascended to the Father, in “paradise” (2 Cor. 12:2,4; Eph. 4:9-10; Rev. 2:7); and didn’t even lead some of the captivity (dead) captive (resurrected) until then (Psa. 68:18; Isa. 26:19; Psa. 24:1-10; 1 Cor. 15:20,23; Lev. 23:10-12; Mat. 27:52-53; Jhn. 14:2-4; 2 Tim. 1:10):​
Joh_20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.​
Jesus, after His ascension went to go receive a kingdom, but He has not yet received it (Isa. 61:10, 62:5; Mat. 19:28, 21:33, 25:14,31; Mar. 12:1; Luk. 20:9):​
Luk_19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.​
The koine Greek has no punctuation, the English printed text is simply missing a comma, after the word “Today”, which was missed in the printing of the current edition (see Jhn. 1:51, 3:3,5,11, 5:19,24,25, 6:26,32,47,53, 8:34,51,58, 10:1,7, 12:24, 13:16,20,21,38, 14:12, 16:20,23, 21:18; Mat. 5:18,26, 6:2,5,16, 8:10, 10:15,23,42, 13:17; Preserves Words – Psa. 12:6-7):​
Luk 23:43 GNT TR και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω​
Jesus was saying, “To day, if ye will hear his voice” (see Psa. 95:7; see also Hebrews 3:7,15, 4:7), or Believe me today, or I promise you today (now), in the resurrection to come of all those who believed, you will be with me (see 2 Cor. 6:2; 1 Thes. 4:17, “Then … ever be with the Lord.”). A comma can make all the difference in the world:​
(EXAMPLE:)Let's eat, Grandma!” vs. “Let's eat Grandma!” or “A woman, without her, man is nothing.” Vs “A woman without her man, is nothing.”​
Even the “creeds” of ‘Catholicism’ do not teach Jesus went to “Paradise” that day:
Thomas Aquinas “Summa Theologica”, Third Part, Question 52; Article 4, Reply To Objection 1 [and throughout, having both the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur]:
“Reply to Objection 1. When Christ descended into hell He delivered the saints who were there, not by leading them out at once from the confines of hell, but by enlightening them with the light of glory in hell itself. Nevertheless it was fitting that His soul should abide in hell as long as His body remained in the tomb.” - SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: Christ's descent into hell (Tertia Pars, Q. 52)
or we may see it from the “Creed of Aquiliea”":
“Descendit ad inferna; tertia die resurrexit a mortuis (He descended to hell; on the third day he rose again from the dead); Ascendit in cœlos; sedet ad dexteram Patris; (He ascended to the heavens; he sits at the right hand of the Father)”- CHURCH FATHERS: Commentary on the Apostles' Creed (Rufinus)
or considering the “Apostles Creed”, it clearly states that Jesus was not “caught up to Heaven” until after the “third day”; “T” Apostles Creed :
“...(5) He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; (6) He ascended into Heaven, sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; ...” - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Apostles' Creed
or considering the “Nicene Creed”, it clearly says of Jesus that he:
“...suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven...” - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Nicene Creed
or considering the “Athanasian Creed”, it clearly says of Jesus:
“...Who suffered for our salvation, descended into Hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into Heaven...” - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Athanasian Creed
 
  • Like
Reactions: tigger 2

BeyondET

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2022
1,494
392
83
55
Hampton Roads
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I know the scriptures well Jason.....and this is no popping.
The devil's first lie was 'thou shalt not surely die.' It seems the larger majority of the Christian world has believed the lie. They wrestle to fit the scriptures into this lie.
A truth and a lie, they didn't die from eating the fruit itself, but from disobedience.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus said He would be 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth following His crucifixion in Matthew 12:40

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth

But Jesus also said to the thief on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise" Luke 23:43

And Jesus said unto him,Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise

So this seems like a contradiction, doesn't it? Was He in two places at once? The heart of the earth, where Jesus went to preach to the spirits in captivity as per 1 Peter 3:19, is surely not paradise by any stretch of the imagination.

Acts 1:2-3 mentions that He had not yet ascended to heaven, but was with them for 40 days.

...until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen
After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God


John 20:17 Jesus tells Mary not to cling to Him for He had not ascended yet.

Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God

Acts 1:9-11 describes precisely when Jesus ascends to heaven.

After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight
They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them.
Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”


Question: why did Jesus tell the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise "today" when scripture clearly teaches that Jesus descended to the realm of the dead and then resurrected to spend 40 days with His disciples?

Answer: The best answer I can think of is simply that God views time differently than we do, I guess.

Can anyone resolve this seeming contradiction?
The seeming contradiction is with your listening to men's false doctrines about where the abode of the dead wicked are. The idea that hell is 'in the earth' is a superstitious myth, and old tradition of men that could not understand the idea of that other dimension of existence, the Heavenly.

The abode of the wicked, called 'hell' in certain Scriptures, is in... Paradise. The word paradise is simply a word representing the Heavenly dimension.

This is why per Lord Jesus' story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16, the 'rich man' being in 'hell' in torments could see Abraham and Lazarus across the great fixed gulf between them. God's Abode is in a place of separation from all that. But by that Jesus showed there's actually 2 SIDES in the heavenly Paradise. (I want to go to the side where Abraham and Lazarus is).

Even in 2 Peter 2:4 where Apostle Peter used the old pagan concept of Tartarus (tartaroo) for "hell" there, he spoke of that being where the angels that rebelled are held in chains awaiting the Judgment. Tartarus per the Greek's mythology was a deep dungeon of torment and prison of the Titans. So just like we have today places of separation for the wicked with prisons, so likewise that kind of places of separation exist in the Heavenly dimension also.
 

Johann

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2022
8,588
4,869
113
63
Durban South Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
But Jesus also said to the thief on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise" Luke 23:43
Verily I say unto thee, today thou shall be with me in paradise; בגן עדן, "in the garden of Eden"; not the earthly paradise, nor the church militant, but the future place, and state of the happiness of the saints, even heaven, and eternal glory, which the Jews frequently call by this name;

See Gill on 2Co_12:4 and is so called, because, as the earthly paradise, or Eden's garden, was of God's planting, so is the heavenly glory of his providing and preparing: as that was a place of delight and pleasure, so here are pleasures for evermore; as there was a river in it, which added to the delightfulness and advantage of it, so here runs the river of God's love, the streams whereof make glad the saints now, and will be a broad river to swim in to all eternity: as there were the tree of life, with a variety of other trees, both for delight and profit, so here, besides Christ, the tree of life, which stands in the midst of it, are an innumerable company of angels, and the spirits of just men made perfect: and as the inhabitants of that garden were pure and innocent creatures, so into this paradise shall nothing enter but what is righteous, pure, and holy: and whereas the principal enjoyment of man in Eden was conversation with God, and communion with him, the glory of the heavenly paradise will lie in fellowship with God, Father, Son, and Spirit, in beholding the face of God, and seeing him as he is: and this is the happiness promised by Christ to the penitent and believing thief, that he should be here; and not only so, but with him here, which is far better than being in this world, and than which nothing can be more desirable: and which, when enjoyed, will be for ever: and this he was to enter upon that very day; which shows, that Christ's soul did not descend into hell, locally and literally considered, or into the "Limbus Patrum", the Papists talk of, to fetch the souls of the patriarchs thence, but as soon as it was separated from the body was taken up into heaven; and also, that the souls of departed saints are immediately, upon their separation from the body, there; which was the case of this wonderful instance of the grace of God; and shows the swiftness of the soul, or the velocity of angels in conveying it thither immediately: and this agrees with the sense of the Jews, who say (b), that
"the souls of the fathers, or patriarchs have rest, and in a moment, immediately enter into their separate places, or apartments, and not as the rest of the souls; of whom it is said, all the twelve months the soul ascends and descends, (goes to and fro,) but the souls of the fathers, מיד בהפרדן, "immediately, upon their separation", return to God that gave them.''

Some would remove the stop, and place it after "today", and read the words thus, "I say unto thee today"; as if Christ only signified the time when he said this, and not when the thief should be with him in paradise; which, besides it being senseless, and impertinent, and only contrived to serve an hypothesis, is not agreeably to Christ's usual way of speaking, and contrary to all copies and versions.

Moreover, in one of Beza's exemplars it is read, "I say unto thee, οτι σημερον that today thou shalt be with me", &c. and so the Persic and Ethiopic versions seem to read, which destroys this silly criticism.

@quitethinker talks about the "comma"...........here you may see it is irrelevant.

And because this was a matter of great importance, and an instance of amazing grace, that so vile a sinner, one of the chief of sinners, should immediately enter into the kingdom of God, and enjoy uninterrupted, and everlasting communion with him and that it might not be a matter of doubt with him, or others, Christ, who is the "Amen", the faithful witness, and truth itself, prefaces it after this manner: "verily I say unto thee"; it is truth, it may be depended on. This instance of grace stands on record, not to cherish sloth, indolence, security and presumption, but to encourage faith and hope in sensible sinners, in their last moments, and prevent despair. The Papists pretend to know this man's name; they say his name was Disma; and reckon him as a martyr, and have put him in the catalogue of saints, and fixed him on the "twenty fifth" of March.
(The story of the penitent thief has sometimes been considered the most surprising, the most suggestive, the most instructive incident in all the Gospel narrative. ... In the salvation of one of the thieves \@vital\@ \@theology finds one of its finest demonstrations.\@

\@Sacrementalism was refuted,\@ for the thief was saved without recourse to baptism, the Lord's Supper, church, ceremony, or good works.

\@The dogma of purgatory was refuted,\@ for this vile sinner was instantly transformed into a saint and made fit for paradise apart from his personal expiation of a single sin.

\@The teaching of universalism was refuted,\@ for only one was saved of all who might have been saved. Jesus did not say, "Today shall ye be with me in paradise", but "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

\@The notion of soul-sleep was refuted,\@ for the clear implication of the entire incident is that the redeemed thief would be in conscious fellowship with his Saviour in paradise even while his body disintegrated in some grave.
Too, it is doubtful whether any other gospel incident presents the plan of salvation more clearly or simply.--Dr. Charles R. Erdman)
(b) Tzeror Hammor, fol. 58. 4.
Gill

......much more, but hopefully this will answer your question

J.
 

Johann

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2022
8,588
4,869
113
63
Durban South Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Clearly some people do not want to know the truth about what the Scriptures really say. Dialogue is obviously useless with these people, they only waste the time of others, even though they already know the answer they are going to receive... even so, they only provoke useless discussions:

"it is so because it says so",
"it says so in an inexact translation",
"you don't accept that translation because it doesn't suit you",
"take into account the original language",
"you don't know more than the translator I'm quoting",
"you have to realize that this translation is incorrect due to the biblical context" ,
"you don't want to believe because you don't know... blablabla".

It is an endless discussion. Some people don't care about the truth; they just want to generate traffic here.
I have to agree with that emphatic statement.
 

Johann

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2022
8,588
4,869
113
63
Durban South Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
1 Peter 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison. Various are the senses given of this passage: some say, that Christ, upon his death, went in his human soul to hell; either, as some, to preach to the devils and damned spirits, that they might be saved, if they would; and, as others, to let them know that he was come, and to fill them with dread and terror; but though hell may be meant by the prison,.............. yet the text does not say that he went unto it, or preached in it; only that the spirits were in it, to whom he sometimes went, and preached; nor is his human soul, but his divine nature meant, by the Spirit, by which he went and preached to them: and as for the ends proposed, the former is impracticable and impossible; for after death follows judgment, which is an eternal one; nor is there any salvation, or hope of salvation afterwards; and the latter is absurd, vain, and needless.

Others, as the Papists, imagine the sense to be, that Christ, at his death, went in his human soul, into a place they call "Limbus Patrum", which they suppose is meant by the prison here, and delivered the souls of the Old Testament saints and patriarchs from thence, and carried them with him to heaven; but this sense is also false, because, as before observed, not the human soul of Christ, but his divine nature, is designed by the Spirit; nor is there any such place as here feigned, in which the souls of Old Testament saints were, before the death of Christ; for they were in peace and rest, in the kingdom of heaven, in Abraham's bosom, inheriting the promises, and not in a prison; besides, the text says not one word of the delivering of these spirits out of prison, only of Christ's preaching to them: add to all this, and which Beza, with others, observes, the apostle speaks of such as had been disobedient, and unbelievers; a character which will not agree with righteous men, and prophets, and patriarchs, under the former dispensation: others think the words are to be understood of Christ's going to preach, by his apostles, to the Gentiles, as in Eph_2:17 who were in a most miserable condition, strangers to the covenants of promise, and destitute of the hope of salvation, and sat in darkness, and the shadow of death, and, as it were, at the gates of hell; were in the bonds of iniquity, and dead in sin, and had been for long time past foolish and disobedient, serving divers lusts and pleasures, to which they were in bondage. This is, indeed, a more tolerable sense than the former; but it will be difficult to show, that men, in the present state of life, are called "spirits", which seems to be a word that relates to the souls of men, in a separate state from their bodies; and especially that carnal and unconverted men are ever so called; and besides, the apostle is speaking of such who were disobedient in the times of Noah; and therefore not of the Gentiles, in the times of the apostles: add to which, that the transition from the times of the apostles, according to this sense, to the days of Noah, is very unaccountable; this sense does not agree with the connection of the words: others are of opinion, that this is meant of the souls of the Old Testament saints, who were εν φυλακη, "in a watch", as they think the phrase may be rendered, instead of "in prison": and said to be in such a situation, because they were intent upon the hope of promised salvation, and were looking out for the Messiah, and anxiously desiring his coming, and which he, by some gracious manifestation, made known unto them: but though the word may sometimes signify a watch, yet more commonly a prison, and which sense best suits here; nor is that anxiety and uneasiness, which represents them as in a prison, so applicable to souls in a state of happiness; nor such a gracious manifestation so properly called preaching; and besides, not believers, but unbelievers, disobedient ones, are here spoken of; and though it is only said they were sometimes so, yet to what purpose should this former character be once mentioned of souls now in glory? but it would be tedious to reckon up the several different senses of this place; some referring it to such in Noah's time, to whom the Gospel was preached, and who repented; and though they suffered in their bodies, in the general deluge, yet their souls were saved; whereas the apostle calls them all, "the world of the ungodly", 2Pe_2:5 and others, to the eight souls that were shut up in the ark, as in a prison, and were saved; though these are manifestly distinguished in the text from the disobedient spirits.

The plain and easy sense of the words is, that Christ, by his Spirit, by which he was quickened, went in the ministry of Noah, the preacher of righteousness, and preached both by words and deeds, by the personal ministry of Noah, and by the building of the ark, to that generation who was then in being; and who being disobedient, and continuing so, a flood was brought upon them which destroyed them all; and whose spirits, or separate souls, were then in the prison of hell, so the Syriac version renders it, בשיול, "in hell", see Rev_20:7 when the Apostle Peter wrote this epistle; so that Christ neither went into this prison, nor preached in it, nor to spirits that were then in it when he preached, but to persons alive in the days of Noah, and who being disobedient, when they died, their separate souls were put into prison, and there they were when the apostle wrote: from whence we learn, that Christ was, that he existed in his divine nature before he was incarnate, he was before Abraham, he was in the days of Noah; and that Christ also, under the Old Testament, acted the part of a Mediator, in his divine nature, and by his Spirit discharged that branch of it, his prophetic office, before he appeared in human nature; and that the Gospel was preached in those early times, as unto Abraham, so before him.
Gill

J.
 

charity

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2017
3,234
3,192
113
75
UK
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Jesus said He would be 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth following His crucifixion in Matthew 12:40

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth

But Jesus also said to the thief on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise" Luke 23:43

And Jesus said unto him,Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise

So this seems like a contradiction, doesn't it? Was He in two places at once? The heart of the earth, where Jesus went to preach to the spirits in captivity as per 1 Peter 3:19, is surely not paradise by any stretch of the imagination.

Acts 1:2-3 mentions that He had not yet ascended to heaven, but was with them for 40 days.

...until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen
After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God


John 20:17 Jesus tells Mary not to cling to Him for He had not ascended yet.

Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God

Acts 1:9-11 describes precisely when Jesus ascends to heaven.

After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight
They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them.
Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”


Question: why did Jesus tell the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise "today" when scripture clearly teaches that Jesus descended to the realm of the dead and then resurrected to spend 40 days with His disciples?

Answer: The best answer I can think of is simply that God views time differently than we do, I guess.

Can anyone resolve this seeming contradiction?
Hello @friend of,

The Lord Jesus did not tell the thief that he would be with Him that day in paradise. Unfortunately the introduction of a comma here has created a misconception.

The thief will indeed be with the Lord in paradise, but that paradise has yet to be, for it will be in the New Jerusalem which comes down out of heaven upon the new earth, and so is yet future.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris