Was the Thief on the Cross Baptized or Not?

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Lizbeth

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Who was God asking forgiveness for? The criminals? The Jews who fabricated charges of blasphemy against him? Or the Roman soldiers who drove in the nails?
Since the scriptures tell us that death pays for even serious sins, the deaths of the criminals would give them a chance of the resurrection, this is what Jews believed.....so not the criminals.
The Jews who lied to have Jesus illegally tried, and then blackmailed Pilate into having him put to death? There could be no forgiveness for them...their fate was already sealed. (Matt 23:33)
So it was the Roman soldiers who had no interest in who Jesus was, and didn't care about who he claimed to be....they were just doing their job....and we know that the Romans were cruel people who thrived on bloodshed as part of their culture. They acted in ignorance.

Pilate appeased the Jews who clamored for Jesus' death only after they threatened his political position. They were going to report him to Caesar for treason which was a capital offense. He had Jesus flogged and in a very poor physical state the Romans had no compunction in adding to his pain as they impaled him to die in agony.

This promise made to one of the thieves is heart warming for two reasons....firstly, the repentant attitude of the man who asked to be remembered when Christ got into his Kingdom, meant that he acknowledged Jesus as Messiah. Because Jesus only preached to the Jews, this criminal was obviously Jewish.....he knew that they deserved their just punishment under Roman law, but that Jesus was an innocent man.

Pilate had stated that he found nothing criminal about his activities....but the Jews cried out for for his death, even cursing themselves and their children with his blood. (Matthew 27:25) Who misled them?

Secondly as a Jew, the man also knew what Jesus meant when he said..."you will be with me in paradise".

The controversial part of that verse is the addition of a comma that changes the whole meaning of what Jesus said.
"And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
There is no punctuation in Greek, so the comma is placed at the discretion of the translator. But if you put the comma after the word "today" the whole meaning of the verse changes the time frame.
"And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.”
Its very subtle but satan is good at that.
We have to ask which placement of the comma is the correct one, by using the scriptures themselves to answer that question.

Did Jesus go to paradise that day? And what is the "paradise" that he referred to? Since the Jews did not have any belief in an immortal soul (no such belief exited in the Jewish scriptures) it was adopted later, influenced by Plato....a Greek philosopher. (Adopted also by Christendom in the early centuries.)
The Jewish belief was that Messiah would be a human in the family line of David, and he would sit on an earthly throne and establish his Kingdom on earth with the Jews making up "the royal priesthood an a holy nation" as God had promised through Moses. (Exodus 19:5-6)

They knew nothing about the heavenly nature of the Kingdom and did not expect to go there. "Paradise" to a Jew meant the earthly paradise that Adam and his wife lost for all their children. Messiah was going to come and reinstate that paradise and rule on earth for the blessing of all the nations.

Now what about Jesus? What did he say about where he would be the day he died?
Matthew 12:38-40...
"Then as an answer to him, some of the scribes and the Pharisees said: “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.” 39 In reply he said to them: “A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Joʹnah the prophet. 40 For just as Joʹnah was in the belly of the huge fish for three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights."

Jesus was not going to be anywhere the day he died, in fact he was going to be in his grave "the heart of the earth" for three days and nights. Just as Jonah was confined in the belly of the fish, so Jesus would be confined in his grave, making the promise to the thief something other than what Christendom wants to think it does. And Jesus remained here on the earth for 40 days prior to his ascension. So he did not return to heaven that day, or in the following 40 days after his resurrection. (Acts 1:3)

So, moving the comma to the correct place, (after the word "today") gives us the truth about what Jesus promised to the thief that day.
It was a promise made that day, for the man to be resurrected in paradise (not heaven) when Jesus brought his Kingdom to rule this earth. (Rev 21:1-4)

Those raised to heaven, Jesus said are the ones who had lived a faithful life of obedience to his teachings and who had died faithful.....this rules out last minute death bed conversions....though, like the thief, an earthly resurrection is promised even for those who did vile things. They paid for their sins with their own lives....Jesus' sacrifice gives them another chance to be 'saved'. They will have a judgment period....the thousand year reign of God's Kingdom.

"Do not be amazed at this, because a time is coming when all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come out—those who have done good things, to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked things, to the resurrection of judgment." (John 5:28-29)

That is how I understand the scriptures on this topic.
Gosh......the truth is really quite simple. Jesus was just granting salvation to the penitent thief, letting him know that he was saved......and comforting him as he was in process of dying, that he would live on in eternity with Jesus past his physical death.
 

Lizbeth

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Oh! Well that’s actually a pretty big change from a few years ago when I spoke with you. I can much more agree with you now that you leave some room for Gods mercy and acceptance toward those learning righteousness.
Before you didn’t have as much balance in that.

I still didn’t hear in your above outline any mention of those who give one of Christs body a kindness (described as a cup of water) and it’s woven throughout the whole Bible and is in the parables, this idea that He will have mercy on whoever He chooses to show mercy, even DESPITE what religious men insist.
And HOW does He have mercy on those who He chooses to show mercy to? HE SHOWS THEM HIS SALVATION. That's right. He saves them through a revelation of Himself and His gospel. Because no man can come to the Father but by Jesus Christ. And there is no other name under heaven by which man can be saved. Nobody is saved by works. (Though good works wrought through FAITH are acceptable to Him.) Jesus told even righteous law-abiding Jews that they MUST be born again.

The thief on the cross was granted a revelation of who Jesus was...that's how he knew that Jesus had done no wrong.
 

stunnedbygrace

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And HOW does He have mercy on those who He chooses to show mercy to? HE SHOWS THEM HIS SALVATION. That's right. He saves them through a revelation of Himself and His gospel. Because no man can come to the Father but by Jesus Christ. And there is no other name under heaven by which man can be saved. Nobody is saved by works. (Though good works wrought through FAITH are acceptable to Him.) Jesus told even righteous law-abiding Jews that they MUST be born again.

The thief on the cross was granted a revelation of who Jesus was...that's how he knew that Jesus had done no wrong.
I have sighed so much for you sister. I hope you have a day full of blessing.
 

Lizbeth

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Lol. We are inclusivians. Take us to your leader.

And amigos’ doctrine determines who is found in that book and amigos doctrine determines who God may and may not show mercy to. God may only show mercy to men filtered first through amigos’ doctrine, since it is without any error or leaven. Someone alert God about the proper channel to filter His mercy through! Now git those hands up and…GLORIOUS! LAMBS! AND UH…OH YEAH, THE POPE! ALIENS! INCLUSIVATORERS BEWARE!

Sometimes you are quite ridiculous!

LOL! I shall huff and puff my dragons breath on you and attack you with my light saber! THATS RIGHT! LAMBS AND…GLORIOUS AND…GIT THOSE HANDS UP! AND OH YEAH BIBLE!
Whoa, rather venomous post there, don't you think sister? Sometimes we need to examine the plank in our own eye first before we judge and condemn others.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Whoa, rather venomous post there, don't you think sister? Sometimes we need to examine the plank in our own eye first before we judge and condemn others.
This isn’t about any planks. It’s ridicule, but there was no venom. This is about the necessity to stop playacting and to be authentic.
In another place somewhere, the same person posted this: Verily, verily I say unto you, I am shocked and stunned.
Why would you speak that way unless it’s playacting? Even an unbeliever would have that level of discernment.

If I was being unauthentic, I would want someone to splash some cold water on me too, to try and snap me out of it, so I am caring for him in the same way I would want my brother or sister to care for me. So I know I appear as mean, but that’s not what’s in my heart.
 
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1stCenturyLady

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I can tell we not gonna have a fruitful conversation , so I'll leave you with this

Born again means to be born from above

Do you I'm good

Yes, being born from above is receiving the Holy Spirit from above. Romans 8:9 calls it the Spirit of Christ, and THAT is the New Covenant as I said.
 

Lizbeth

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This isn’t about any planks. It’s ridicule, but there was no venom. This is about the necessity to stop playacting and to be authentic.
In another place somewhere, the same person posted this: Verily, verily I say unto you, I am shocked and stunned.
Why would you speak that way unless it’s playacting? Even an unbeliever would have that level of discernment.

If I was being unauthentic, I would want someone to splash some cold water on me too, to try and snap me out of it, so I am caring for him in the same way I would want my brother or sister to care for me. So I know I appear as mean, but that’s not what’s in my heart.
It's always easy to justify ourselves because we ourselves usually can't see our own fault....much easier to discern someone else's fault than our own. I don't think God wants us sitting in the seat of mockers. If you have a problem with something, why not just address it with the person straight up? I'm not ridiculing you in this. If I were doing that, it would be demeaning and hurtful to you.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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It's always easy to justify ourselves because we ourselves usually can't see our own fault....much easier to discern someone else's fault than our own. I don't think God wants us sitting in the seat of mockers. If you have a problem with something, why not just address it with the person straight up? I'm not ridiculing you in this. If I were doing that, it would be demeaning and hurtful to you.
I’m all ears. Tell me, in your own words, what I should have said to him to challenge him to be authentic when speaking with us?
And don’t worry, I will not take offense.
 

Lizbeth

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I’m all ears. Tell me, in your own words, what I should have said to him to get him to be authentic when speaking with us?
And don’t worry, I will not take offense.
Already told you my suggestion, just be straight up with the person you're having an issue with, without mocking and belittling them. Wondering why you think it's your responsibility to "get" anyone to do anything, anyhow. Manipulation.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Already told you my suggestion, just be straight up with the person you're having an issue with, without mocking and belittling them. Wondering why you think it's your responsibility to "get" anyone to do anything, anyhow. Manipulation.
I was being straight up as best as I could figure how to. I think no matter how I did it, it would appear to you as mean. This is the second time you have said I’m not speaking right where I have been very willing to listen to you and given you my whole ear and asked for an example of how you think I should better word myself. Both times you werent Willing to help with an example despite my attentiveness and willingness.
 

Lizbeth

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I was being straight up as best as I could figure how to. I think no matter how I did it, it would appear to you as mean. This is the second time you have said I’m not speaking right where I have been very willing to listen to you and given you my whole ear and asked for an example of how you think I should better word myself. Both times you werent Willing to help with an example despite my attentiveness and willingness.
Uh huh. Well, what don't you understand about being straight up? Just be straight forward without the ridicule, sister. Enough said. Let's not take this off topic any further.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Uh huh. Well, what don't you understand about being straight up? Just be straight forward without the ridicule, sister. Enough said. Let's not take this off topic any further.
Well…apparently I don’t, in your estimation, understand what being “straight up” is and don’t do a good job of being straight up and straight forward. I’m getting the impression that you think the vehicle of sarcasm/ridicule is always being mean and is never useful? Do you think that Paul saying, “I wish they would emasculate themselves” is the vehicle of sarcasm being used? Do you think he was being mean because meanness was in his heart or do you think he was using the vehicle of sarcasm to make a point? You don’t think it was in his heart for men to literally do that to themselves, do you? Critique Paul’s use of sarcasm/ridicule (which was pretty intense) and tell me what was in his heart when he employed that vehicle and what he hoped to achieve by employing that vehicle to convey meaning.
 
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Lizbeth

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Well…apparently I don’t, in your estimation, understand what being “straight up” is and don’t do a good job of being straight up and straight forward. I’m getting the impression that you think the vehicle of sarcasm/ridicule is always being mean and is never useful? Do you think that Paul saying, “I wish they would emasculate themselves” is the vehicle of sarcasm being used? Do you think he was being mean because meanness was in his heart or do you think he was using the vehicle of sarcasm to make a point? You don’t think it was in his heart for men to literally do that to themselves, do you? Critique Paul’s use of sarcasm/ridicule (which was pretty intense) and tell me what was in his heart when he employed that vehicle and what he hoped to achieve by employing that vehicle to convey meaning.
Now instead of asking me to put words in your mouth, you're putting words in my mouth, lol. No I don't think irony/sarcasm is always mean and wrong. But in this instance your post was. Kind of like employing a bazooka to deal with a little gnat.

Or we might even have just considered the scripture that teaches us to "bear with one another in love" like a Christian.

Let's get back to the topic. Have a blessed day.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Now instead of asking me to put words in your mouth, you're putting words in my mouth, lol. No I don't think irony/sarcasm is always mean and wrong. But in this instance your post was. Kind of like employing a bazooka to deal with a little gnat.

Or we might even have just considered the scripture that teaches us to "bear with one another in love" like a Christian.

Let's get back to the topic. Have a blessed day.
You’ve been here about 6 months. I’ve been here over 4 years. I’ve seen long-standing patterns that you have not. You haven’t really seen how long gentleness was employed with others or seen it become firmer Over time. You haven’t seen how long certain people have repeatedly attacked certain individuals and ruined beautiful threads and brought a bad spirit into them. I’ve even known some of these people on other forums, before I joined this one. I’ve seen some of these individuals attack, for instance, Epi, in every thread he starts for over 12 years. If one person was doing it, I would be just ignoring them. But that’s not how it works. It starts as one of them and then they all pile in (always the same few), and then the bad spirit starts affecting beautiful, meek and gentle ones who have not yet been weaned from their flesh and they get stirred in their flesh and dragged away from their accustomed peace and their normally polite way of speaking and questioning and then they get stuck in it, even carrying it into other threads and it grows and grows and gets vicious. So when this particular person starts up with any of the people he likes to passively aggressively attack, like he has done here with me, since I have seen his tactics so many times against many different people and since I know how it will crank up, I let him know I’m not going to just ignore it and let the crank up happen.
If you pay attention, you will begin to see it.
Bearing with one another does not mean allowing the bad spirit to continue unchecked so meek ones get trampled and carried away. And what you consider to be a little gnat shows me you have not yet seen the patterns of continued attack of that “little gnat.” Hiding what you are doing by throwing in a few shouts of “verily verilys” or “get those hands up and praise” or “stay in your bibles precious lambs” to pretend you aren’t harming beautiful and meek children and doing wrong is not going to happen without a fight from me.
When you see strife or trampling BEGIN in a thread, you should pay attention to exactly WHO began it. Then you begin to discern better who is doing wrong and in the wrong spirit and who is being firm that they will not let the harm just continue for some misguided view that bearing with one another means letting children get trampled and disheartened.
 
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Taken

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Was the Thief on the Cross Baptized or Not?​

OP ^

Clarity in Context.

Did Jesus personally (while physically visible to eyes of human men)Water Baptize human men...? Likely not.

Did Jesus personally Save souls of confessed believers in Him (while physically visible to eyes of human men) ? Likely yes...however one needs to Understand the difference between WHAT a human mans eyes can SEE manifested....and When the Lord God SPEAKS it is accomplished, it is already accomplished, whether or not a man can SEE it manifested.

Jesus was clear...speaking expressly to One thief (ie. malefactor) that he WOULD be WITH Jesus. That was accomplished the moment Jesus said it.
Yet the One malefactor would have to WAIT for his body to physically die, his own saved soul depart his Dead body, his own saved departed soul, WITH Jesus, along with other saved Departed saved souls.

Saving of souls (OT) and Baptism of the Holy Spirit (OT) history, reveals is ALWAYS manifested AFTER a Physical bodily Death, of that mortal body physically DYING in Belief.

Nothing new...a BODILY death is still required BEFORE the Gifts are is Given...
The manifestation is MYSTERIOUS...because an individual mortal living man can RECEIVE the Gifts...(By Gods Word...said, is effected)...but living mortal can not SEE the Gifts.

Mortal living men DO NOT SEE...a saved soul...a born again spirit. (Even their own)...until AFTER a physical death occurs.

When the Word of God says...IF you do this...and you DO this...According to God who is faithful, and all knowing...it’s DONE....
men however have to WAIT to SEE.

Jesus assured the malefactor next to him, he would be WITH Jesus. Men without a saved soul, nor quickened spirit have no assurance to be WITH Jesus.


Glory to God,
Taken
 

Lizbeth

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You’ve been here about 6 months. I’ve been here over 4 years. I’ve seen long-standing patterns that you have not. You haven’t really seen how long gentleness was employed with others or seen it become firmer Over time. You haven’t seen how long certain people have repeatedly attacked certain individuals and ruined beautiful threads and brought a bad spirit into them. I’ve even known some of these people on other forums, before I joined this one. I’ve seen some of these individuals attack Epi in every thread he starts for over 12 years. If one person was doing it, I would be just ignoring them. But that’s not how it works. It starts as one of them and then they all pile in (always the same few), and then the bad spirit starts affecting beautiful, meek and gentle ones who have not yet been weaned from their flesh and they get stirred in their flesh and dragged away from their accustomed peace and their normally polite way of speaking and questioning and then they get stuck in it, even carrying it into other threads and it grows and grows and gets vicious.
If you pay attention, you will begin to see it.
Bearing with one another does not mean allowing the bad spirit to continue unchecked so meek ones get trampled and carried away. And what you consider to be a little gnat shows me you have not yet seen the patterns of continued attack of that “little gnat.” Hiding what you are doing by throwing in a few shouts of “verily verilys” or “get those hands up and praise” or “stay in your bibles precious lambs” to pretend you aren’t harming beautiful and meek children and doing wrong is not going to happen without a fight from me.
When you see strife or trampling BEGIN in a thread, you should pay attention to exactly WHO began it. Then you begin to discern better who is doing wrong and in the wrong spirit and who is being firm that they will not let the harm it just continue for some misguided view that bearing with one another means letting children get trampled and disheartened.

Ah, in other words you were irritated and your patience was running thin. Yes, that's how it looked to me.

I haven't seen any of those other threads you are talking about to be able to discern them....don't tend to get around much these days, but I just try to do my small bit here or there and usually can only concentrate on one thing at a time. I do know there is a counterfeit spirit seeking to draw and entice people away from the truth and expect to see some dust-ups whenever that gets confronted. Many in the church seem to be falling asleep!
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Ah, in other words you were irritated and your patience was running thin. Yes, that's how it looked to me.

I haven't seen any of those other threads you are talking about to be able to discern them....don't tend to get around much these days, but I just try to do my small bit here or there and usually can only concentrate on one thing at a time. I do know there is a counterfeit spirit seeking to draw and entice people away from the truth and expect to see some dust-ups whenever that gets confronted. Many in the church seem to be falling asleep!
It’s like you are looking in a mirror and seeing things backwards…
Oh I’d say you are definitely doing your small bit here recently. You fly into threads like an angry wrecking ball recently.
 

Lizbeth

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It’s like you are looking in a mirror and seeing things backwards…
Oh I’d say you are definitely doing your small bit here recently. You fly into threads like an angry wrecking ball recently.
No, only one thread. Didn't realize there was no debate allowed there. But wow, the church needs to wake up...Christians need to be careful about what they are coming into agreement with! Glad to pray FOR those folks, but can't join in with those prayers.
 
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liafailrock

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Please give a reason for your answer. Carefully read the account in Luke 23.

Luke 23:
32 There were also two others, criminals, led with Him to be put to death. 33 And when they had come to the place called Calvary, there they crucified Him, and the criminals, one on the right hand and the other on the left. 34 Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.”

And they divided His garments and cast lots. 35 And the people stood looking on. But even the rulers with them sneered, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if He is the Christ, the chosen of God.”


36 The soldiers also mocked Him, coming and offering Him sour wine, 37 and saying, “If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself.”

38 And an inscription also was [i]written over Him in letters of Greek, Latin, and Hebrew:

THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.


39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”

40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”


43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
In all this, the question is going to be posed as to whether one needs to be baptized to be saved. No. But then again, if one has an opportunity, then why would they deny it? It's sort of like the book of James where he shows his faith by works. Works never, ever saves, but if one is saved, the works will definitely follow - same principle.

I don't know much about the thieves, but I'll bet my bottom dollar that they both immersed themselves in a Mikvah at some point. So that was the forerunner of baptism in those days. The difference is, as the book of Hebrews teaches, Jesus Christ died once for all and sat at the right hand of the Father, thus we only need to be baptized once, but the Jews will do it again and again and again until they see Christ as the Day of Atonement reminds one yearly of sins at the very least (and the one thief DID finally recognize Christ in which fulfilled his Mikvah purification).

Scriptural proof that the Spirit can come upon unbaptized persons is in Acts 10:44. But the result was verses 47 and 48 in which I doubt anyone refused to be baptized. So the moral of the story is if one is saved, unless they have a morbid fear of water or alone on a desert Island without anyone else, they ought to be baptized when opportunity arises. Otherwise, the question can rightfully be asked, "Why do you claim to follow Christ, but then refuse to do what is required to show your testimony (Romans 10:9)? Baptism is the perfect time to fulfill Romans 10:9. So there's the Scripture. Again, the Scripture does not teach baptism to be saved, but it teaches that those who believed were baptized. I find the argument "I don't need to be baptized to be saved" is often an excuse to NOT to get baptized and be lazy about it. Get off one's bottom and go do it!