Was the Thief on the Cross Baptized or Not?

[n2thelight]

Okay , gotcha , and I understand what you're saying ,never mind the osas as I know that's not scripture as well

You do not “ know” that .......it is your opinion....I have Scripture that easily Refutes what you think that you “ know”
For instance....John 5:24....
.....and of course , there is more....

Whatever

 

[DJT_47]

How was the thief "saved and forgiven" during the old covenant? Israelites had to bring their sacrificial animals to the Temple where they were sacrificed on their behalf if they had committed sins. I have to wonder if the thief was a devout Jews who was a regular at the Temple...? Did he steal the animals he sacrificed for his sins?


The Jews were coming to John in great numbers to be baptized....it was very public. Not to mention being viewed by God and the angels where "joy" is expressed in heaven "over one sinner who repents".


His dedication was to Jehovah through his promised Messiah.....as a Jewish proselyte the Ethiopian knew the scriptures, but failed to make application. Phillip showed him who Isaiah was talking about.......he saw the need to get baptized.

He had an audience all right.

You're missing the point. It's not that the thief was saved ir forgiven by following old covenant ritual criteria, but rather that Jesus forgave him as he did others during his earthly ministry such as the adulterous woman. The NT did not take effect until Jesus died so baptism is totally irrelevant and should not be even brought into the discussion. Read my post on the misconceptions on the thief. Also in there is a ref to Hebrews 9 and the need for the death of the testator in order for the testament to be relevant.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Hello 1stcenturylady,

As someone whom is not very articulate or smart: something to consider here is simply this, a thief on the cross.

Someone whom was hung next to Jesus, both slowly dying. From the past 3 years of Jesus ministry did this thief though he was considered a criminal charged to be put to death, ever hear about the Lord? I suppose so, could he have came to Jesus and had a change of life in which he did not have to face the cross? Possibly, but it seems here on his death bed - though he had 3 years to meet up with Jesus and have the outcome of his life changed, is not hanging on the cross, seeking the forgiveness that Jesus, indeed grants to him by explaining that they will be together in Paradise, located in the realm of the dead where all souls went before the resurrection.

A thief on a cross, but accepted nontheless, praise God for his mercy, and praise be to the Son of God whom asked forgiveness upon all people at that time; whom had put the Messiah to death, that being the Jewish people - and the Romans who put him on the cross.

Are there many thieves on the cross - taking ahold of salvation at the last moments of life? It seems granted by Jesus, he is the only way to the Father.

I could be wrong in this assessment but it is probably something to consider; death bed repentance is granted - but from my assessment the reward though it was Paradise could be lesser than others because God will reward and grant people a resurrected heavenly body that will be based upon their life that they had lived for God, in my opinion, in faith. (Which now today people do not go to Paradise from my perspective they actually go on to the Heavenly Realm) People went to Paradise, and prison while hell was still around, and today I believe Jesus Christ overcame that place and it was done away with.

May the God of peace be with you.

Matthew, I'm not saying he hadn't been a thief ever. We were all sinners before Christ aren't we? Even if we are saved for eternity doesn't mean the laws of the land are that forgiving...to not have to face the cross.

 

[marks]

You're missing the point. It's not that the thief was saved ir forgiven by following old covenant ritual criteria, but rather that Jesus forgave him as he did others during his earthly ministry such as the adulterous woman. The NT did not take effect until Jesus died so baptism is totally irrelevant and should not be even brought into the discussion. Read my post on the misconceptions on the thief. Also in there is a ref to Hebrews 9 and the need for the death of the testator in order for the testament to be relevant.

Exactly. Jesus had the power on earth to forgive sins, just like He passed to His disciples after His resurrection. He forgave this man without need of anything except His Own desire to do so, and when the thief pleaded in faith, Jesus gave His promise.

Much love!

 

[Aunty Jane]

You're missing the point. It's not that the thief was saved ir forgiven by following old covenant ritual criteria, but rather that Jesus forgave him as he did others during his earthly ministry such as the adulterous woman. The NT did not take effect until Jesus died so baptism is totally irrelevant and should not be even brought into the discussion. Read my post on the misconceptions on the thief. Also in there is a ref to Hebrews 9 and the need for the death of the testator in order for the testament to be relevant.

I don't think the thief's forgiveness was ever in dispute....otherwise Jesus would never have promised him that the would be with him in "paradise".

The story of the adulterous woman is disputed. Believed to be added later....but there is no doubt that Jehovah gave his son the authority to forgive sins on earth. In fact "all authority" was given to him also in heaven, as he said in Matthew 28:18....
"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

.....hard to imagine that he didn't already have "all authority" if he was God incarnate....?


Luke 5:17-24...ESV
"17 On one of those days, as he was teaching, Pharisees and teachers of the law were sitting there, who had come from every village of Galilee and Judea and from Jerusalem. And the power of the Lord was with him to heal. 18 And behold, some men were bringing on a bed a man who was paralyzed, and they were seeking to bring him in and lay him before Jesus, 19 but finding no way to bring him in, because of the crowd, they went up on the roof and let him down with his bed through the tiles into the midst before Jesus. 20 And when he saw their faith, he said, “Man, your sins are forgiven you.” 21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to question, saying, “Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?” 22 When Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answered them, “Why do you question in your hearts? 23 Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’? 24 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he said to the man who was paralyzed—“I say to you, rise, pick up your bed and go home.”

When did Jesus receive this "authority"?

I think you meant that the "new covenant" did not take effect until Jesus died...but baptism was an important component in becoming a Christian. John's baptism was a preliminary one in symbol of repentance for sins against God's Law.....those who were prepared by John's baptism, had to be baptized again as disciples of Christ.

Under the circumstances, the thief did not have the option to be baptized either way, but he did have reassurance that Jesus would resurrect him "in paradise".....not heaven. (John 5:28-29)

Also in there is a ref to Hebrews 9 and the need for the death of the testator in order for the testament to be relevant.

In Hebrews ch 9 there are two principal covenants mentioned.....the Law covenant and the new covenant. Paul refers to Christ’s mediating the new covenant. (Heb 9:15) His words at Heb 9:16 have been a subject of controversy among Bible scholars. Accordingly, the text has been rendered in the following ways:
“For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.” (KJ)
“For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.” (RS)
“For where a covenant is it is necessary for the death to be brought in of him that hath covenanted.” (Ro)
“For where there is a covenant, the death of the human covenanter needs to be furnished.” (NW)
“For where a covenant is, the death of the covenant-victim to come in is necessary.” (Yg)
“For where a Covenant exists, the Death of that which has ratified it is necessary to be produced.” (ED)
“For where a covenant is, there is a necessity for the death of that which establisheth the covenant.”—The New Testament in an Improved Version.

I like the rendering in the RS the best because I believe that it conveys the idea way better than the others....we all understand what a will is and how the person has to die before the will can be executed. The new covenant was like that.

The words "testament" and "covenant" are not words we are familiar with in the 21st century, so I believe that this scripture would confuse a lot of people.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I don't think the thief's forgiveness was ever in dispute....otherwise Jesus would never have promised him that the would be with him in "paradise".

The story of the adulterous woman is disputed. Believed to be added later....but there is no doubt that Jehovah gave his son the authority to forgive sins on earth. In fact "all authority" was given to him also in heaven, as he said in Matthew 28:18....
"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

.....hard to imagine that he didn't already have "all authority" if he was God incarnate....?


Luke 5:17-24...ESV
"17 On one of those days, as he was teaching, Pharisees and teachers of the law were sitting there, who had come from every village of Galilee and Judea and from Jerusalem. And the power of the Lord was with him to heal. 18 And behold, some men were bringing on a bed a man who was paralyzed, and they were seeking to bring him in and lay him before Jesus, 19 but finding no way to bring him in, because of the crowd, they went up on the roof and let him down with his bed through the tiles into the midst before Jesus. 20 And when he saw their faith, he said, “Man, your sins are forgiven you.” 21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to question, saying, “Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?” 22 When Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answered them, “Why do you question in your hearts? 23 Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’? 24 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he said to the man who was paralyzed—“I say to you, rise, pick up your bed and go home.”

When did Jesus receive this "authority"?

I think you meant that the "new covenant" did not take effect until Jesus died...but baptism was an important component in becoming a Christian. John's baptism was a preliminary one in symbol of repentance for sins against God's Law.....those who were prepared by John's baptism, had to be baptized again as disciples of Christ.

Under the circumstances, the thief did not have the option to be baptized either way, but he did have reassurance that Jesus would resurrect him "in paradise".....not heaven. (John 5:28-29)



In Hebrews ch 9 there are two principal covenants mentioned.....the Law covenant and the new covenant. Paul refers to Christ’s mediating the new covenant. (Heb 9:15) His words at Heb 9:16 have been a subject of controversy among Bible scholars. Accordingly, the text has been rendered in the following ways:
“For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.” (KJ)
“For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.” (RS)
“For where a covenant is it is necessary for the death to be brought in of him that hath covenanted.” (Ro)
“For where there is a covenant, the death of the human covenanter needs to be furnished.” (NW)
“For where a covenant is, the death of the covenant-victim to come in is necessary.” (Yg)
“For where a Covenant exists, the Death of that which has ratified it is necessary to be produced.” (ED)
“For where a covenant is, there is a necessity for the death of that which establisheth the covenant.”—The New Testament in an Improved Version.

I like the rendering in the RS the best because I believe that it conveys the idea way better than the others....we all understand what a will is and how the person has to die before the will can be executed. The new covenant was like that.

The words "testament" and "covenant" are not words we are familiar with in the 21st century, so I believe that this scripture would confuse a lot of people.

Don't forget this passage where Jesus forgave sins.

Mark 2:1-12

And again He entered Capernaum after some days, and it was heard that He was in the house. 2 Immediately many gathered together, so that there was no longer room to receive them, not even near the door. And He preached the word to them. 3 Then they came to Him, bringing a paralytic who was carried by four men. 4 And when they could not come near Him because of the crowd, they uncovered the roof where He was. So when they had broken through, they let down the bed on which the paralytic was lying.

5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”

6 And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7 “Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

8 But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, “Why do you reason about these things in your hearts? 9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise, take up your bed and walk’? 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the paralytic, 11 “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.” 12 Immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went out in the presence of them all, so that all were amazed and glorified God, saying, “We never saw anything like this!”

Personally, I still believe the thief on the cross had been a Christian and baptized for a long time before having to go to jail for his past crimes before Christ. So his sins were already forgiven.

 

[Gospel Believer]

Don't forget this passage where Jesus forgave sins.

Mark 2:1-12

And again He entered Capernaum after some days, and it was heard that He was in the house. 2 Immediately many gathered together, so that there was no longer room to receive them, not even near the door. And He preached the word to them. 3 Then they came to Him, bringing a paralytic who was carried by four men. 4 And when they could not come near Him because of the crowd, they uncovered the roof where He was. So when they had broken through, they let down the bed on which the paralytic was lying.

5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”

6 And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7 “Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

8 But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, “Why do you reason about these things in your hearts? 9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise, take up your bed and walk’? 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the paralytic, 11 “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.” 12 Immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went out in the presence of them all, so that all were amazed and glorified God, saying, “We never saw anything like this!”

Personally, I still believe the thief on the cross had been a Christian and baptized for a long time before having to go to jail for his past crimes before Christ. So his sins were already forgiven.

The Thief simply Believed that Jesus was Who He claimed to be....

“ Who do YOU say That I am? The answer to that inquiry will determine Heaven or Hell....The Thief had little going for him that day, but he knew who Jesus was....it got that guy saved....it got me Saved too...

 

[Aunty Jane]

Don't forget this passage where Jesus forgave sins.

Mark 2:1-12

And again He entered Capernaum after some days, and it was heard that He was in the house. 2 Immediately many gathered together, so that there was no longer room to receive them, not even near the door. And He preached the word to them. 3 Then they came to Him, bringing a paralytic who was carried by four men. 4 And when they could not come near Him because of the crowd, they uncovered the roof where He was. So when they had broken through, they let down the bed on which the paralytic was lying.

5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”

6 And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7 “Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

8 But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, “Why do you reason about these things in your hearts? 9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise, take up your bed and walk’? 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the paralytic, 11 “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.” 12 Immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went out in the presence of them all, so that all were amazed and glorified God, saying, “We never saw anything like this!”

Already quoted in post #145...only from Luke's account. Jesus had authority from his Father (as his representative) to forgive sins on earth.
As he said in Matthew 28:18, just before his ascension.....
"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

Personally, I still believe the thief on the cross had been a Christian and baptized for a long time before having to go to jail for his past crimes before Christ. So his sins were already forgiven.

There is not a single indication that the thief was in any way a former disciple of Jesus. In fact the account in Matthew draws attention to the fact that both the thieves were reviling him. One though, apparently had a change of heart....

Matthew 27:38-44....ESV
"Then two robbers were crucified with him, one on the right and one on the left. 39 And those who passed by derided him, wagging their heads 40 and saying, “You who would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save yourself! If you are the Son of God, come down from the cross.” 41 So also the chief priests, with the scribes and elders, mocked him, saying, 42 “He saved others; he cannot save himself. He is the King of Israel; let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him. For he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’” 44 And the robbers who were crucified with him also reviled him in the same way.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Exactly. Jesus had the power on earth to forgive sins, just like He passed to His disciples after His resurrection. He forgave this man without need of anything except His Own desire to do so, and when the thief pleaded in faith, Jesus gave His promise.

Much love!

Yet Jesus left earth some 2000 years ago (Acts 1:9-11) therefore it is impossible for anyone today to be saved as the thief for Christ is not on earth today in person forgiving the sins of men. When Christ left earth some 2000 years ago He left behind His NT as His authority on earth and His NT requires water baptism. The thief did not live under the NT (Heb 9:16-17) therefore was not ameanable to Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38).

 

[marks]

Yet Jesus left earth some 2000 years ago (Acts 1:9-11) therefore it is impossible for anyone today to be saved as the thief for Christ is not on earth today in person forgiving the sins of men. When Christ left earth some 2000 years ago He left behind His NT as His authority on earth and His NT requires water baptism. The thief did not live under the NT (Heb 9:16-17) therefore was not ameanable to Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38).

Yes, I agee . . . that was then, it was a different dispensation.

Much love!

 

[BarneyFife]

Please give a reason for your answer. Carefully read the account in Luke 23.

Luke 23:
32 There were also two others, criminals, led with Him to be put to death. 33 And when they had come to the place called Calvary, there they crucified Him, and the criminals, one on the right hand and the other on the left. 34 Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.”

And they divided His garments and cast lots. 35 And the people stood looking on. But even the rulers with them sneered, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if He is the Christ, the chosen of God.”

36 The soldiers also mocked Him, coming and offering Him sour wine, 37 and saying, “If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself.”

38 And an inscription also was [i]written over Him in letters of Greek, Latin, and Hebrew:

THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”

40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Hiya, Sis. Long time no see. I had to take a break. I like your question. I've considered it many times since I became a Christian.

While I hardly believe knowing the answer is essential to salvation (and I'm certainly not implying that you're suggesting that it is), I do have a theory and it's based on this:

Mat 3:14-15 KJV
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

I think Christ was baptized here for all who have been born again—baptized or not. For even our individual baptisms are as righteous as filthy rags. I'm a total depravity guy.

 

[marks]

Hiya, Sis. Long time no see. I had to take a break. I like your question. I've considered it many times since I became a Christian.

While I hardly believe knowing the answer is essential to salvation (and I'm certainly not implying that you're suggesting that it is), I do have a theory and it's based on this:

Mat 3:14-15 KJV
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

I think Christ was baptized here for all who have been born again—baptized or not. For even our individual baptisms are as righteous as filthy rags. I'm a total depravity guy.

I never thought of it that way, I'll need to give some consideration, but I like this!

And welcome back! I missed you!

Much love!

 

[BarneyFife]

I never thought of it that way, I'll need to give some consideration, but I like this!

And welcome back! I missed you!

Much love!

I'm happy to be back. I missed you and others, too. I'm hoping and praying I can be more positive this go-around.

 

[marks]

I'm happy to be back. I missed you and others, too. I'm hoping and praying I can be more positive this go-around.

You've always been good for me!

Much love!

 

[Aunty Jane]

Mat 3:14-15 KJV
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

Or in plain English for those who do not speak archaic English....
"John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” 15 But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he consented." (ESV)

Why did John hesitate to baptize Jesus? Because he knew that this baptism was not for repentance over sins committed against the Law Covenant....Jesus had committed no sin. But Jesus insisted just for this one time, since his baptism was a symbol of all Christian baptisms to follow.

Jesus' baptism symbolized the beginning of his new role as Messiah.....it was a symbolic death to his former life and rising up to do the will of his Father, first and foremost in his life. Those who became Christ's disciples were baptized in water to show that they too had embarked on a new life course. They had a "model" to follow. (1 Pet 2:21)

I think Christ was baptized here for all who have been born again—baptized or not. For even our individual baptisms are as righteous as filthy rags.

Christ died for all....but not all want to bring their lives into harmony with what God requires of us.....our obedience. It is all he has ever asked.

If you are following a life course that is filled with error, yet believing that it is authentic, how can you convince someone of something they do not wish to believe? The answer is...you can't.....and its not our job to convince or to convict.....all we are assigned to do is to bring the message to the people, and God will do the rest. (John 6:44, 65)

"What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth." (1 Cor 3:15-17)

 

[Scott Downey]

The thief likely not by John's baptism although it does not say.
John the Baptist came before to prepare the way for Christ's revealing to Israel.
It is not however a baptism of salvation.
Acts 19:4
And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.”