The Sheep and the Goats

[marks]

@Davy

(coming from another thread)

The gathering when Jesus comes cannot include the current day Church, that is, IF you believe the exact words of Jesus' prophecy.

Simply stated, Jesus said that when He comes, He will send His angels gather the Chosen. Then, after He sits on His throne, the Nations will be gathered before Him, and He will judge them, separating them left and right, based on their treatment of Jesus' brothers, the Jews.

The church will not fit either group no matter how hard you try without creating conflict with the other group.
There are a few ways people attempt to address this, rather than list them all, what is yours? I'll just answer that one.
Maybe as I have time I can go through the different ways.

Most commonly I see a complete denial of the prophecy, as though it were a parable, or the later judgement at the great white throne.

Now, if you gathered the nations of the earth together, and asked a Jew of Jesus' time to point to the "Chosen", and point to the "Nations", I'm pretty certain that Jew would point to Israel, and say, "Chosen", and point to the rest, and say Goyim.

So going with the "historical grammatical" hermenuetic, that's our understanding. And it sure fits the passage!
And interestingly, the "sheep" are judged according to their works whether they are righteous.

Anyway, that would be my question to you. Do you find the church to be part of the gathered chosen, or the gathered nations?

Much love!

 

[Davy]

@Davy

(coming from another thread)

The gathering when Jesus comes cannot include the current day Church, that is, IF you believe the exact words of Jesus' prophecy.

I understand that the Pre-trib Rapture school wrongly teaches that Jesus comes to rapture out the Church PRIOR to the "great tribulation", and then returns with His Church from Heaven at His 2nd coming. But of course, that idea is NOT written anywhere in the Scriptures. And I do... believe the exact... words by Lord Jesus. You might try that too with the Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture.

Simply stated, Jesus said that when He comes, He will send His angels gather the Chosen. Then, after He sits on His throne, the Nations will be gathered before Him, and He will judge them, separating them left and right, based on their treatment of Jesus' brothers, the Jews.

You need to 'dig' a bit deeper in God's Word brother. What Jesus taught in Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 is exactly... the SAME idea Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about His coming and gathering of His Church. And understanding this first is required in order to properly understand about the sheep and the goats.

Matt 24:31
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

That above is about the gathering of the 'asleep' saints, being resurrected that Paul said Jesus will bring with Him, from heaven of course. That is NOT about a 'rapture'. The idea of the 'rapture' (a Catholic translation) is the "caught up" idea Paul taught in verse 17.

1 Thess 4:13-14
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
KJV

Now the actual 'rapture' ("caught up") event Jesus covered...

Mark 13:27
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

In that Mark 13 version, it is about those "caught up" to Jesus on that day, which is the SAME event of Paul's 1 Thessalonians 4:17 verse...

1 Thess 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

Thus Christ first gave the gathering of His Church event that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4, AND which the Pre-trib Rapture school teaches is THE gathering of Christ's Church. So are you trying to tell me the Pre-trib Rapture does not teach that anymore??


As for the Matthew 25 sheep and goats, that is much more simple than what the men you listen to are saying. That event will happen ONLY AFTER Jesus has gathered His Church (i.e, His saints, His elect). And when I say His Church, I mean all... of His 'faithful' Church, both believing Israelite and Gentile together. That's who Christ's 'sheep' are, all His Church. So those teaching you about the goats just being Gentile nations is a Jewish ploy, not true. It's about all... those who were deceived/and/or persecuted Christ's 'faithful' Church. Thus the goats are both the unsaved of unbelieving Israel and unbelieving Gentiles.

The reality about who Christ gathers as His 'faithful' in the future, is that many of today's Church will be deceived by the coming false-Messiah, and will NOT be gathered by Lord Jesus. They will stand in judgment throughout His future "thousand years" reign, as He warned those of His servants in that same Matthew 25 chapter like the 'unprofitable servant' being cast to the "outer darkness" at His return.

ONLY those that remained 'faithful', waiting on His coming, and NOT falling away, will reign with Him when He returns. That will include faithful from BOTH Israelites and Gentiles. So we cannot just try to separate the 'goats' being ONLY about unsaved Gentile nations either. There will be MANY Jews that will be among those 'goats' too, especially those of the "synagogue of Satan".

Now, if you gathered the nations of the earth together, and asked a Jew of Jesus' time to point to the "Chosen", and point to the "Nations", I'm pretty certain that Jew would point to Israel, and say, "Chosen", and point to the rest, and say Goyim.

That belief is fallacy, strong... fallacy. That is NOT what Apostle Paul nor Jesus taught about His Church. There is NO difference between Israelite and Gentile in Christ's Church, and you ought to know better.

The actual meaning of 'many are called, but few are chosen' is NOT about one's nationality of birth. It is NOT a flesh doctrine, even though God said He chose the nation of Israel to be a nation of priests.

In case you didn't know, that idea of 'chosen' to be a nation of priests CHANGED per The New Covenant. That now ONLY applies to Christ's Church of BOTH believing Israelite and Gentile (1 Peter 2:5; Revelation 5:10; Revelation 20:6).

Furthermore, being 'called' is one thing, and being a 'chosen' one is another. The OT patriarchs and prophets were called and chosen. Not all of the nation of Israel was not, simply because many of the seed of Israel fell away from God to idols (see Romans 11 about those of Israel that were blinded by God's hand). Likewise, Christ's Apostles were called and chosen, with Apostle Paul especially being an example. Today there are still those who are called & chosen, because they have certain duties to fulfill for Christ in the latter days, and Christ will cause them to fulfill it. An example is those to be delivered up during the tribulation to give a Testimony for Christ Jesus. Those represent called and chosen within the Christian Church.

But those who are 'called' only, and not 'chosen', those represent the Church majority that are called to believe on Jesus Christ, or not. Those can still fall away if they want. To be chosen means not able to fall away, because Christ already owns them and can influence them in His service, Apostle Paul being a prime example. Thus some of the Church will fall away to the coming false-Messiah, thinking he is Lord Jesus. But those are the 'called' only that allowed themselves to be deceived by Satan's servants here on earth. They will stand in judgment throughout Christ's future thousand years reign.

Anyway, that would be my question to you. Do you find the church to be part of the gathered chosen, or the gathered nations?

Much love!

I think I covered that with my explanation.

Jesus comes only 'once', and that per the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 Scripture I referred to about the gathering of His Church. Per Apostle Paul, we MUST default to what Paul defined as Christ's Church.

Gal 3:27-29
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV

 

[marks]

ONLY those that remained 'faithful', waiting on His coming, and NOT falling away, will reign with Him when He returns. That will include faithful from BOTH Israelites and Gentiles. So we cannot just try to separate the 'goats' being ONLY about unsaved Gentile nations either. There will be MANY Jews that will be among those 'goats' too, especially those of the "synagogue of Satan".

And so Jesus' Jewish audience would NOT have considered that when Jesus said "chosen" and "nations" that they wouldn't be thinking Jews and Gentiles? What would they have been thinking?

(I want to consider points separately)

This is a parallel passage to Joel 3, have you compared these to each other?

Much love!

 

[marks]

And understanding this first is required in order to properly understand about the sheep and the goats.

I think each passage should be understood for what God speaks in each, and once we've understood the saying of that passage, and the other passage, each in their own right, we then go on to form our ideas from both.

We do not use one to negate the saying of the other. All will hold true.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

@Davy

(coming from another thread)

The gathering when Jesus comes cannot include the current day Church, that is, IF you believe the exact words of Jesus' prophecy.

Simply stated, Jesus said that when He comes, He will send His angels gather the Chosen. Then, after He sits on His throne, the Nations will be gathered before Him, and He will judge them, separating them left and right, based on their treatment of Jesus' brothers, the Jews.

The church will not fit either group no matter how hard you try without creating conflict with the other group.
There are a few ways people attempt to address this, rather than list them all, what is yours? I'll just answer that one.
Maybe as I have time I can go through the different ways.

Most commonly I see a complete denial of the prophecy, as though it were a parable, or the later judgement at the great white throne.

Now, if you gathered the nations of the earth together, and asked a Jew of Jesus' time to point to the "Chosen", and point to the "Nations", I'm pretty certain that Jew would point to Israel, and say, "Chosen", and point to the rest, and say Goyim.

So going with the "historical grammatical" hermenuetic, that's our understanding. And it sure fits the passage!
And interestingly, the "sheep" are judged according to their works whether they are righteous.

Anyway, that would be my question to you. Do you find the church to be part of the gathered chosen, or the gathered nations?

Much love!

Something else for you to ponder...

In Ezekiel 44, the Zadok (the Just) priests are shown to be the only ones allowed to approach Jesus at His table in the future Millennium. The Levites who went astray when Israel went astray will not be allowed to approach Jesus in that time, but will be responsible to minister the duties of priest to the people only.

The Levites that fell away:
Ezek 44:10-14
10 And the Levites that are gone away far from Me, when Israel went astray, which went astray away from Me after their idols; they shall even bear their iniquity.
11 Yet they shall be ministers in My sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.
12 Because they ministered unto them before their idols, and caused the house of Israel to fall into iniquity; therefore have I lifted up Mine hand against them, saith the Lord GOD, and they shall bear their iniquity.
13 And they shall not come near unto Me, to do the office of a priest unto Me, nor to come near to any of My holy things, in the most holy place: but they shall bear their shame, and their abominations which they have committed.
14 But I will make them keepers of the charge of the house, for all the service thereof, and for all that shall be done therein.
KJV


Now the Zadok, which means the Righteous (represent Christ's elect Church of both faithful Israelite and faithful Gentile):
Ezek 44:15-16
15 But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of My sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from Me, they shall come near to Me to minister unto Me, and they shall stand before Me to offer unto Me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD:
16 They shall enter into My sanctuary, and they shall come near to My table, to minister unto Me, and they shall keep My charge.
KJV

Those above, the Zadok, represent Christ's elect Church that remained faithful, of both history, and of His saints of His Church that remained faithful to Him all the way to the end of this world. These are the Just that Apostle Paul pointed to in Acts 24:15. These will be made up of BOTH Israelites and Gentiles, Christ's faithful Church. So the idea of Zadok there is not just about some bloodline Jew idea, it is about Christ's elect Church. That is who will be near Him where He will be, as He promised in John 14. The 'many mansions' in The Father's house Jesus promised His faithful is about those priest's chambers in that future sanctuary of Ezekiel 40 thru 47.

 

[marks]

The sheep and the goats are determined by a judgment of their works. They are declared righteous because they did the right works.

We are saved by grace through faith, and NOT of works.

Why the difference?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Furthermore, being 'called' is one thing, and being a 'chosen' one is another. The OT patriarchs and prophets were called and chosen. Not all of the nation of Israel was not, simply because many of the seed of Israel fell away from God to idols (see Romans 11 about those of Israel that were blinded by God's hand). Likewise, Christ's Apostles were called and chosen, with Apostle Paul especially being an example. Today there are still those who are called

I'm kind of seeing from your post that you hold to "partial rapture", which to me presents an extremely different view of what Justification in rebirth means. That will stymie any attempt we make on agreeing over this topic.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

Also, this verse about the Levites that went astray...

Ezekiel 44:12
Because they ministered unto them before their idols, and caused the house of Israel to fall into iniquity; therefore have I lifted up Mine hand against them, saith the Lord GOD, and they shall bear their iniquity.

... that includes leaders in the Christian Church.

That because the "house of Israel" represents only the ten northern tribe "kingdom of Israel" that God cast off, casting them among the Gentiles, and separate from the "house of Judah" (Jews). To this day, the Jews, nor the world, knows where they the ten tribes wound up. But God gave prophecies thru Hosea about them and how they would wind up, and be joined in The Gospel with believing Gentiles. And that's easy to know where that happened historically, because after Jesus was rejected by the majority of Jews in Jerusalem, The Gospel then went to the Gentiles. And that is where the majority of the ten tribes were scattered. Thus today's Church is made up of a majority of the ten tribes, and a remnant of the "house of Judah" that has believed on Jesus Christ, and of course believing Gentiles joined with them.

And because of this, those Levites are symbolic also of Christian pastors that cause the remnants of the "house of Israel" to fall away in the latter days. Even the Ezekiel 13 chapter is about the latter days, just prior to the battle on the "day of the Lord", and shows how God is against men's doctrine about teaching His people to fly away to save their souls.

 

[marks]

about teaching His people to fly away to save their souls.

Interesting idea about what this is about. Much different from mine!

Much love!

 

[Davy]

The sheep and the goats are determined by a judgment of their works. They are declared righteous because they did the right works.

We are saved by grace through faith, and NOT of works.

Why the difference?

Much love!

The division between sheep and goats will be according their faith mainly. Those who remain faithful in Christ will be placed on His right hand because of their Faith. But those on left, the goats, will be judged for their 'works' because they represent those who REJECTED Jesus. To reject Him means no grace, but a default to being judged by one's works only. And even then, it still means not yet saved, but still subject to the later "second death".

 

[marks]

And is the Sheep/Goats judgment the same event as the judgment in Joel 3? Why or why not?

Much love!

 

[marks]

The division between sheep and goats will be according their faith mainly. Those who remain faithful in Christ will be placed on His right hand because of their Faith. But those on left, the goats, will be judged for their 'works' because they represent those who REJECTED Jesus. To reject Him means no grace, but a default to being judged by one's works only. And even then, it still means not yet saved, but still subject to the later "second death".

No, that's not what it says. They are separated based on what they did, and did not, do.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

And so Jesus' Jewish audience would NOT have considered that when Jesus said "chosen" and "nations" that they wouldn't be thinking Jews and Gentiles? What would they have been thinking?

(I want to consider points separately)

This is a parallel passage to Joel 3, have you compared these to each other?

Much love!

Jews have to tendency to believe that they are all... 'chosen', which simply is not true in the spiritual sense. We live in The New Covenant now, not the old covenant. The old covenant is dead. Under the old covenant, all born of Israel were consider chosen. Not anymore, not since The New Covenant (see Romans 9). Those born of the seed of Israel are just as likely to perish at the "second death" for rejecting Christ Jesus as the unbelieving Gentiles also are (see Romans 11).

 

[Davy]

I think each passage should be understood for what God speaks in each, and once we've understood the saying of that passage, and the other passage, each in their own right, we then go on to form our ideas from both.

We do not use one to negate the saying of the other. All will hold true.

Much love!

I do not keep such an idea of isolating Scripture in God's Word. That thinking immediately destroys God's concept of having put more than one Scripture witness of a matter in His Word, often separated between whole Books.

 

[Davy]

I'm kind of seeing from your post that you hold to "partial rapture", which to me presents an extremely different view of what Justification in rebirth means. That will stymie any attempt we make on agreeing over this topic.

Much love!

I don't really often use the word 'rapture', which actually is nowhere written in the Greek manuscripts (Majority text). I'm only using it for your benefit, and those on man's Pre-trib Rapture theory. It originates from the Latin translation of Greek 'harpazo'. The Greek word 'harpazo', is translated to "caught up" in the KJV Bible.

Thusly, do I believe in the 'harpazo' ("caught up")? Yes, certainly, for that is written. The problem some have with the word 'rapture' though, is they think it only can mean a gathering PRIOR to the start of the 'great tribulation'. That is not how 'harpazo' ("caught up") is applied by Apostle Paul in 1 Thess.4.

Remember, Paul in 1 Thess.4 shows he got that 'rapture' ("caught up") event directly from Lord Jesus, because Jesus taught it first like I showed in the contrast of the Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 verses.

 

[Davy]

Interesting idea about what this is about. Much different from mine!

Much love!

You should notice that is pointing directly to the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) at a time prior to the battle on the "day of the Lord". The "day of the Lord" is the last day of this world when Jesus comes to gather His faithful Church.
As a rule also, the Book of Ezekiel was given specifically for the "house of Israel" (ten scattered tribes). It includes some things about the "house of Judah", but God said He made Ezekiel a prophet to the "house of Israel". And those prophecies go all the way into Christ's coming "thousand years" reign at His return. So it is error to think the Book of Ezekiel was only given for Old Testament times.

 

[Davy]

And is the Sheep/Goats judgment the same event as the judgment in Joel 3? Why or why not?

Much love!

That of course is ONLY about Christ's Church. Haven't you understood the Revelation 22:14-15 Scripture about the future separation of Christ's faithful that are allowed through the gates and have right to the Tree of Life, while the wicked are outside those gates? Even though that is written in Rev.22, it is actually Millennium time of Rev.20. Outside those gates of the holy city is where the symbolic "outer darkness" will be.

 

[Davy]

No, that's not what it says. They are separated based on what they did, and did not, do.

Much love!

If you truly believe that Christ's faithful Church are 'judged' by their works, then that means you actually do not believe in His Grace that saves us.

Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
KJV


Rom 3:26-31
26 To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: that He might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29 Is He the God of the Jews only? is He not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, Which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
KJV

Our works in Christ follow us to heaven and make up our righteous garments, but they don't actually SAVE us. Likewise, our works that do not fit His foundation are burned, and not credited (see 1 Corinthians 3:10-15).

 

[marks]

Jews have to tendency to believe that they are all... 'chosen', which simply is not true in the spiritual sense. We live in The New Covenant now, not the old covenant. The old covenant is dead. Under the old covenant, all born of Israel were consider chosen. Not anymore, not since The New Covenant (see Romans 9). Those born of the seed of Israel are just as likely to perish at the "second death" for rejecting Christ Jesus as the unbelieving Gentiles also are (see Romans 11).

You don't see the Jews in Jesus' day understanding that they were the nation God chose from among the rest? I thought that was pretty well established.

I'm not talking about the history of the doctrine of election, I'm talking about the historical grammatical hermeneutic, that is to say, we should endeavor to determine what the speaker was intending to express to his immediate audience, to understand their speech according to the way the language was used in that day.

So that, should we come up with a new meaning for a word as we use it, we shouldn't take that back to the Bible as if that's the way they used is. We need to know how they used it, so we know what they meant when they said it.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I do not keep such an idea of isolating Scripture in God's Word. That thinking immediately destroys God's concept of having put more than one Scripture witness of a matter in His Word, often separated between whole Books.

Isolating, I don't recall saying that.

I'm saying we need to know what each verse says, and not think that one will negate something said in the other. Isn't that like the opposite of isolating?

Much love!