@Davy
(coming from another thread)
The gathering when Jesus comes cannot include the current day Church, that is, IF you believe the exact words of Jesus' prophecy.
I understand that the Pre-trib Rapture school wrongly teaches that Jesus comes to rapture out the Church PRIOR to the "great tribulation", and then returns with His Church from Heaven at His 2nd coming. But of course, that idea is NOT written anywhere in the Scriptures. And I do... believe the exact... words by Lord Jesus. You might try that too with the Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture.
Simply stated, Jesus said that when He comes, He will send His angels gather the Chosen. Then, after He sits on His throne, the Nations will be gathered before Him, and He will judge them, separating them left and right, based on their treatment of Jesus' brothers, the Jews.
You need to 'dig' a bit deeper in God's Word brother. What Jesus taught in Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27
is exactly... the SAME idea Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about His coming and gathering of His Church. And understanding this first is required in order to properly understand about the sheep and the goats.
Matt 24:31
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
That above is about the gathering of the 'asleep' saints, being resurrected that Paul said Jesus will bring with Him, from heaven of course. That is NOT about a 'rapture'. The idea of the 'rapture' (a Catholic translation) is the "caught up" idea Paul taught in verse 17.
1 Thess 4:13-14
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
KJV
Now the actual 'rapture' ("caught up") event Jesus covered...
Mark 13:27
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV
In that Mark 13 version, it is about those "caught up" to Jesus on that day, which is the SAME event of Paul's 1 Thessalonians 4:17 verse...
1 Thess 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV
Thus Christ first gave the gathering of His Church event that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4,
AND which the Pre-trib Rapture school teaches is THE gathering of Christ's Church. So are you trying to tell me the Pre-trib Rapture does not teach that anymore??
As for the Matthew 25 sheep and goats, that is much more simple than what the men you listen to are saying. That event will happen ONLY AFTER Jesus has gathered His Church (i.e, His saints, His elect). And when I say His Church, I mean all... of His 'faithful' Church, both believing Israelite and Gentile together. That's who Christ's 'sheep' are, all His Church. So those teaching you about the goats just being Gentile nations is a Jewish ploy, not true. It's about all... those who were deceived/and/or persecuted Christ's 'faithful' Church. Thus the goats are both the unsaved of unbelieving Israel and unbelieving Gentiles.
The reality about who Christ gathers as His 'faithful' in the future, is that many of today's Church will be deceived by the coming false-Messiah, and will NOT be gathered by Lord Jesus. They will stand in judgment throughout His future "thousand years" reign, as He warned those of His servants in that same Matthew 25 chapter like the 'unprofitable servant' being cast to the "outer darkness" at His return.
ONLY those that remained 'faithful', waiting on His coming, and NOT falling away, will reign with Him when He returns. That will include faithful from BOTH Israelites and Gentiles. So we cannot just try to separate the 'goats' being ONLY about unsaved Gentile nations either. There will be MANY Jews that will be among those 'goats' too, especially those of the "synagogue of Satan".
Now, if you gathered the nations of the earth together, and asked a Jew of Jesus' time to point to the "Chosen", and point to the "Nations", I'm pretty certain that Jew would point to Israel, and say, "Chosen", and point to the rest, and say Goyim.
That belief is fallacy, strong... fallacy. That is NOT what Apostle Paul nor Jesus taught about His Church. There is NO difference between Israelite and Gentile in Christ's Church, and you ought to know better.
The actual meaning of 'many are called, but few are chosen' is NOT about one's nationality of birth. It is NOT a flesh doctrine, even though God said He chose the nation of Israel to be a nation of priests.
In case you didn't know, that idea of 'chosen' to be a nation of priests CHANGED per The New Covenant. That now ONLY applies to Christ's Church of BOTH believing Israelite and Gentile (1 Peter 2:5; Revelation 5:10; Revelation 20:6).
Furthermore, being 'called' is one thing, and being a 'chosen' one is another. The OT patriarchs and prophets were called and chosen. Not all of the nation of Israel was not, simply because many of the seed of Israel fell away from God to idols (see Romans 11 about those of Israel that were blinded by God's hand). Likewise, Christ's Apostles were called and chosen, with Apostle Paul especially being an example. Today there are still those who are called & chosen, because they have certain duties to fulfill for Christ in the latter days, and Christ will cause them to fulfill it. An example is those to be delivered up during the tribulation to give a Testimony for Christ Jesus. Those represent called and chosen within the Christian Church.
But those who are 'called' only, and not 'chosen', those represent the Church majority that are called to believe on Jesus Christ, or not. Those can still fall away if they want. To be chosen means not able to fall away, because Christ already owns them and can influence them in His service, Apostle Paul being a prime example. Thus some of the Church will fall away to the coming false-Messiah, thinking he is Lord Jesus. But those are the 'called' only that allowed themselves to be deceived by Satan's servants here on earth. They will stand in judgment throughout Christ's future thousand years reign.
Anyway, that would be my question to you. Do you find the church to be part of the gathered chosen, or the gathered nations?
Much love!
I think I covered that with my explanation.
Jesus comes only 'once', and that per the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 Scripture I referred to about the gathering of His Church. Per Apostle Paul, we MUST default to what Paul defined as Christ's Church.
Gal 3:27-29
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV