Open discussion about UR - Chapter One

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St. SteVen

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Confessing then, does have the Merit of ' restoration,' Correct?:
That's part of it. More to it than that, as I understand it.
Contradiction? Or Conjecture about Unbelievers (who died) Second Chance 'confession'?:

"...there are many reasons one might think this confession is too late, but, unfortunately, in my case, the line of thought was roughly as follows: “Of course they’ll confess then. It’ll be so obvious that Jesus is Lord at that point. There’s no merit to confessing at that point.” (Keith DeRose universalist) Another member of your ur Team?
Keith DeRose is a good guy, and yes, a Universalist.
I would have to read the context to make heads or tails of that quote.
Inconsistencies don't help me much, so, I should just stay with The Bible, eh, my precious friend?
Stay with the Bible? Yes, you better.
Hey wait... not sure what that says about me. - LOL
No, laid ALL of them to rest, long ago, and just (keeping 'me In Check') searching
Christ's 'Eternal Life' Scriptures/Words (s-l-o-w part 2?) For His Truth To me.

Glad to hear you are doing that as "well (done)." :innocent:
Yes, chapter 2 is sagging a bit. Better pump out some questions, buddy!
 

St. SteVen

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The aforementioned Keith DeRose discusses the "THE many" (Romans 5:18-19) issue here:

"The key difference, for our present purposes, between the translations is between the RSV’s “many” and the NIV’s “the many.”
To say that the many will be made righteous, while it doesn’t imply that all will be made righteous, neither does it imply, nor even suggest, that fewer than all will be.
In fact, v. 19, translated the NIV’s way, especially following on the heels of 18, seems to suggest, if anything, a positive answer to the question of whether all are covered, turning v. 19 from something that counts a bit against a universalist reading of v. 18 to a verse which, if anything, reinforces the universalist implications of v. 18.
My experts have informed me that the original Greek here is like the NIV, and unlike the RSV, in that there is not even a suggestion carried by 19 that fewer than all will be made righteous.
It’s no doubt in response to such considerations that the revision of the RSV, the NRSV, follows the NIV in using “the many” rather than “many.”
(But it was worth first presenting the RSV translation because many use English translations of the Bible, which, like the RSV, employ the inferior translation of this phrase.)" - Keith DeRose

Romans 5:19 RSV
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

Romans 5:19 NRSV
For just as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.
 
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Hillsage

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Hey SteVen,
Decided to drop in and say one thing concerning your comment to Grace ambassador. :)
Inconsistencies don't help me much, so, I should just stay with The Bible, eh, my precious friend?
SteVen said; Stay with the Bible? Yes, you better.
Hey wait... not sure what that says about me. - LOL
For 'me', it was all the "inconsistencies" I saw in my RSV, KJV bibles 50 years ago, that led me to 'hopefully' seek truth no matter where it led. And when I first heard about UR (Ultimate Reconciliation) I felt led...to study it..... for 10 years. My HOPE was that it could even be true. But for the last 40 years I have never doubted. Challenged, many times by 'Christians', for sure.
 
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GRACE ambassador

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Hey SteVen,
Decided to drop in and say one thing concerning your comment to Grace ambassador. :)


For 'me', it was all the "inconsistencies" I saw in my RSV, KJV bibles 50 years ago, that led me to 'hopefully' seek truth no matter where it led. And when I first heard about UR (Ultimate Reconciliation) I felt led...to study it..... for 10 years. My HOPE was that it could even be true. But for the last 40 years I have never doubted. Challenged, many times by 'Christians', for sure.
Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome to the Board.

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided
! (+ I and II!)

Grace, Peace, And JOY!…
 
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St. SteVen

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Hey SteVen,
Decided to drop in and say one thing concerning your comment to Grace ambassador. :)
Great to hear from you. A warm welcome to you.
(I'm not nearly as good at welcoming as my dear friend @GRACE ambassador )
For 'me', it was all the "inconsistencies" I saw in my RSV, KJV bibles 50 years ago, that led me to 'hopefully' seek truth no matter where it led. And when I first heard about UR (Ultimate Reconciliation) I felt led...to study it..... for 10 years. My HOPE was that it could even be true. But for the last 40 years I have never doubted. Challenged, many times by 'Christians', for sure.
Yes.
I posted earlier about the update to the RSV (NRSV) including the definite article (the) in Romans 5:19. (see below)
Thus making the effect for ALL, not just many. (some)

Romans 5:19 NRSV
For just as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.

Romans 5:19 RSV
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
 

St. SteVen

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For 'me', it was all the "inconsistencies" I saw in my RSV, KJV bibles 50 years ago, that led me to 'hopefully' seek truth no matter where it led. And when I first heard about UR (Ultimate Reconciliation) I felt led...to study it..... for 10 years. My HOPE was that it could even be true. But for the last 40 years I have never doubted. Challenged, many times by 'Christians', for sure.
Which translation(s) do you find most trustworthy from your perspective?
 

Charlie24

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In my experience, it is more likely that believers are wrongly divided instead of rightly dividing. cc: @Hillsage
St, Steven, it's been quite a while! Good to see you here!

The only UR guy I couldn't get angry with.

I see you have a new slogan. I find it hard to believe anyone could be your enemy, but I also find it hard to believe you have presented any truth from the UR, any concrete that is.

Sorry to say, it ain't there my friend!
 
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St. SteVen

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St, Steven, it's been quite a while! Good to see you here!

The only UR guy I couldn't get angry with.
Lots of wonderful guests today.
"If I knowed yoo was comin', idd'a baked a pie." - LOL
I see you have a new slogan. I find it hard to believe anyone could be your enemy, but I also find it hard to believe you have presented any truth from the UR, any concrete that is.

Sorry to say, it ain't there my friend!
Ouch.
There are three biblical doctrines of the final judgment.
I'd say, disagreeing with one of them doesn't make the others false.

Not ANY truth presented? My, my... (must be something)
 

St. SteVen

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Sorry to say, it ain't there my friend!
Have you seen this?

Here is a challenge to you. Tell me which one of these is incorrect:

God gives life

God is ALL Powerful

God desires all to be saved

God does nothing in vain

God knows the end from the beginning

God doesn't fail

Because if you believe all of those are correct then all men shall be saved - just as your Bible says they will be.
 

Charlie24

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Have you seen this?

Here is a challenge to you. Tell me which one of these is incorrect:

God gives life

God is ALL Powerful

God desires all to be saved

God does nothing in vain

God knows the end from the beginning

God doesn't fail

Because if you believe all of those are correct then all men shall be saved - just as your Bible says they will be.

LOL, Steven! My friend, if man has free will then several of your statements are incorrect.

The bottom line: man controls his own destiny.
 

St. SteVen

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LOL, Steven! My friend, if man has free will then several of your statements are incorrect.
Well, I suppose that free-will is a debatable subject. Good point though.

John 6:44 NIV
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them...
The bottom line: man controls his own destiny.
Oh, my. Did you really write that? (seems so)

Psalm 37:23 NASB
The steps of a man are established by the LORD...

Proverbs 21:1 KJV
The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
 
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Charlie24

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Well, I suppose that free-will is a debatable subject. Good point though.

John 6:44 NIV
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them...

Oh, my. Did you really write that? (seems so)

Psalm 37:23 NASB
The steps of a man are established by the LORD...

Your statements are not incorrect in light of Scripture, they are incorrect in your perception of the Scripture.

The free will of man, which God will not deny man, can and does grieve God. God does not get His way with all men.
 

St. SteVen

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Your statements are not incorrect in light of Scripture, they are incorrect in your perception of the Scripture.
Is there only ONE view? Only one CORRECT perception of scripture?
Even Jesus knew that the discussion was more important than the conclusions.

Luke 10:26 NIV
“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
The free will of man, which God will not deny man, can and does grieve God. God does not get His way with all men.
I see... So, SOME knees will bow, and SOME tongues confess... ???
 

Charlie24

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Is there only ONE view? Only one CORRECT perception of scripture?
Even Jesus knew that the discussion was more important than the conclusions.

Luke 10:26 NIV
“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

I see... So, SOME knees will bow, and SOME tongues confess... ???

Not all of us have that correct interpretation of Scripture.

Let me say up front, I know I'm not right about everything concerning Scripture.

But I have enough examples in Scripture to see that God does not always get His way concerning man. I can also see that the Scripture presents a crucified Christ, God's own Son, and man has a clear choice to make, and make it he must, no exceptions.

There are consequences presented throughout Scripture for that wrong decision.

So man holds in his individual hands his own destiny.
 

St. SteVen

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This is a good discussion. Thanks for staying with it. You're a good man.
Most would have blown me off (surrendered) by now. You've got spunk.
Not all of us have that correct interpretation of Scripture.

Let me say up front, I know I'm not right about everything concerning Scripture.
Thanks for your honesty. A rare commodity on Christian forums.
But I have enough examples in Scripture to see that God does not always get His way concerning man. I can also see that the Scripture presents a crucified Christ, God's own Son, and man has a clear choice to make, and make it he must, no exceptions.
I mostly agree. More to say on that. (from both of us)
There are consequences presented throughout Scripture for that wrong decision.
I completely agree. But what are the consequences? Senseless eternal torture, or correction, restoration, and redemption?
So man holds in his individual hands his own destiny.
Nope. The kids aren't driving this bus. - LOL

BTW could you weigh in on my topic:
 

Charlie24

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This is a good discussion. Thanks for staying with it. You're a good man.
Most would have blown me off (surrendered) by now. You've got spunk.

Thanks for your honesty. A rare commodity on Christian forums.

I mostly agree. More to say on that. (from both of us)

I completely agree. But what are the consequences? Senseless eternal torture, or correction, restoration, and redemption?

Nope. The kids aren't driving this bus. - LOL

BTW could you weigh in on my topic:

It seems that the Father is very serious on what His Son endured on the Cross for mankind, and very serious about what man will do about it.

It also seems that you, Steven, are not in sync with the Father on the seriousness of what He has provided for us!
 

Hillsage

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Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome to the Board.

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided
! (+ I and II!)

Grace, Peace, And JOY!…
Thank you, for the “Warm Welcome”, and the positive words following.

I’m still trying to figure out the ‘format’ here.
Like why, at the en of your post, is “Rightly Divided” blue and bold? Also what does (+l and ll!) even mean at the end of your post?

Also, just for clarification, what does ‘Rightly Divided’ even mean, in your opinion?
 
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St. SteVen

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The argument against free will. cc: @Charlie24 (love you)

"What is free will? Free will is a doctrine that teaches that man can act independently of God. This should already ring sour to the spiritually-attuned ear. The doctrine of free will teaches that man has the freedom to choose or reject God, never mind the verse that says no man is seeking God (Rom. 3:11). But I remind you that we’re talking about free will; Scripture has nothing to do with this." Read more here.
 
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St. SteVen

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Oh my, I can't stop there with the quoted article. Wow.

"In other words, in the doctrine of free will, man becomes the deciding factor in his own salvation. Jesus Christ’s work on the cross, according to this doctrine, was only a potential salvation, not an actual one. According to this doctrine, the cross of Christ never saved anybody; the cross only saves those who decide to be saved. What about the verse that says no one can come to the Son unless the Father draws him? (Jn. 6:44). Never mind it. What about the verses that say God is the Savior of all mankind (1 Tim. 4:10), and that the blood of the cross will reconcile all to Him (Col. 1:20), whether those on the earth or those in the heavens? Never mind them. Then what about the verse that says God is operating all things in accord with the counsel of His will? (Eph. 1:11) Again, never mind. I have already told you. Scripture has nothing to do with this. We’re talking about free will." Read more. Wow!