Open discussion about UR - Chapter One

[St. SteVen]

Depends what the Meaning of "in Christ" is, Correct?

However, looks as if you beat me to the punch

I didn't mean to steal your thunder. Please reply as you see fit.

Those opposed to UR, will obviously latch onto the "in Christ" phrase and overlook everything else in the verse.

A very good friend of mine wrote a great analysis. Here it is.

This is essentially a conditional statement.
It is upon the basis that all die in Adam that all also are made alive in Christ. Or better, if all had not died in Adam, then there would have been no need to make all (or any) alive in Christ.

If all died in Adam, then all are made alive in Christ.

The same set of people are being referenced in both the antecedent and the consequent. So, if "all" doesn't mean all in the consequent, then it doesn't mean all in the antecedent.

Modus tollens: If all are not made alive in Christ, then all did not die in Adam.

But, of course, all did die in Adam (according to the fans of eternal torment).

Therefore, all means all in both instances.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

cc: @Chadrho

 

[St. SteVen]

Next go:

Romans 5:15-16

"But not as the offence, so also [ is ] The Free Gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more The Grace of God, and The Gift by Grace, [ which is ] by One Man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as [ it was ] by one that sinned, [ so is ] The Gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but The Free Gift is of many offences unto Justification."
The all [ many ] offences of ALL humankind, right?

Right. Again, many = all.
The same group.
"... many be dead... abounded unto many... but the free gift is of many offences unto justification."
Meaning...
All be dead, abounded unto all, but the free gift is of all offences unto justification.

Romans 5:15-16 KJV
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

 

[St. SteVen]

No one has ever utilized this rule with me before, but you must be 'a cut above'?

I'm honored, thanks.
Still just shooting from the hip though. - LOL
I must have been raised right. (recovering evangelical)

John 16:13 KJV
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth...

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Romans 5:18-19

​

"Therefore as by the offence of one [ judgment came ] upon all men to ​

condemnation; even so By The Righteousness Of One [ the free gift came ]​

upon all men unto Justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience ​

many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One Shall many Be Made ​

Righteous."​

In accordance with #3 of God's Bible study Rules...:

Never Ever add to, Or take away From, God’s PURE And Holy Word!
Keep everything in Context - immediate, chapter, book, Whole Bible!
{ Including "God's Contexts!," [ Prophecy ] Rightly Divided from [ MYSTERY! ] }
(Deuteronomy_4:2, 12:32; Proverbs_30:5-6; Revelation_22:18,19 KJB)

...I cannot, in good faith toward God, 'add' to His Text above? "THE many" is the same as 'all'?

I had an experience once, reading a 'reformed' booklet telling me "infant baptism is not
scriptural..." (confirmed by my own Scripture study), "...but we practice it (tradition) anyway."
At the very next 'ceremony' of this tradition, I had a horrible feeling inside. Did God "tell me
to RUN" from this false teaching (doctrine?) (2Co 6:17)?

But that's me (I could be wrong)...

 

[St. SteVen]

...I cannot, in good faith toward God, 'add' to His Text above? "THE many" is the same as 'all'?

I believe I corrected that when I discovered my reading/typing error. (oops)
My apologies. Apparently I discovered this on my proofread after clicking REPLY.
Unless I am overlooking something here. Did I mess up?

 

[GRACE ambassador]

...I cannot, in good faith toward God, 'add' to His Text above? "THE many" is the same as 'all'?

Yeah, looks like my comment:

I believe I corrected that when I discovered my reading/typing error. (oops)
My apologies. Apparently I discovered this on my proofread after clicking REPLY.
Unless I am overlooking something here. Did I mess up?

Sorry, unsure of: "WHAT happened"?

 

[St. SteVen]

I had an experience once, reading a 'reformed' booklet telling me "infant baptism is not
scriptural..." (confirmed by my own Scripture study), "...but we practice it (tradition) anyway."
At the very next 'ceremony' of this tradition, I had a horrible feeling inside. Did God "tell me
to RUN" from this false teaching (doctrine?) (2Co 6:17)?

But that's me (I could be wrong)...

Very interesting.

This is why I posit that scriptural truth is not singular. (not sure if that defies any of your "rules")

Obviously, the church practicing that tradition (infant baptism) has a scriptural basis for it. Correct?
I agree with you, and my church practices "believers baptism".
(apologies to my Catholic friends for this offensive term) That's what we call it. (cringe)

Here I apply MY rule.
Anyone that does their homework and comes to a decision on their position has my COMPLETE respect.

I have zero respect for those that can only spout what they think some Pastor said at one time,
according to their Cousin and Aunt. Grr...

This doesn't mean that I will TREAT them with disrespect. (on a good day, anyway) - LOL

 

[St. SteVen]

Sorry, unsure of: "WHAT happened"?

Seems as if whatever is in the post when we hit REPLY is what gets sent to email alerts.
If you reply to the alert, you will not have the edits included? Not sure.
I appeal to mystery. - LOL

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Seems as if whatever is in the post when we hut REPLY is what gets sent to email alerts.
If you reply to the alert, you will not have the edits included? Not sure.
I appeal to mystery. - LOL

Yep, mystery to me, I don't do 'email alerts' = mine are Directly on the Board.

 

[St. SteVen]

Yep, mystery to me, I don't do 'email alerts' = mine are Directly on the Board.

I surmise that you probably replied before I was finished noodling. - LOL

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Colossians 1:19-20

"For it Pleased [ The Father ] That In Him should all fulness dwell; And, having ​

made Peace Through The BLOOD Of His Cross, By Him To Reconcile all things ​

unto Himself; By Him, [ I say, ] whether [ they be ] things in earth, or things in ​

heaven." ​

ALL fullness/ALL things means everybody that ever existed?

 

[St. SteVen]

Colossians 1:19-20

"For it Pleased [ The Father ] That In Him should all fulness dwell; And, having made Peace Through The BLOOD Of His Cross, By Him To Reconcile all things unto Himself; By Him, [ I say, ] whether [ they be ] things in earth, or things in heaven."

The key point here is that through the Atonement God will reconcile all things in earth and in heaven unto himself.
Interesting that God will need to reconcile all things in heaven. How come?

The common view is that everything will be reconciled in the judgment BEFORE heaven.
(which I agree with assuming everyone is ALREADY saved, which this scripture above does bot support)

Hello cognitive dissonance. - LOL

ALL fullness/ALL things means everybody that ever existed?

No, Not what I was seeing here. Though that is a valid point in general. Thanks.

 

[St. SteVen]

Ready for the next five?
I suppose you are starting to wonder how many I have. - LOL
This is the third set of five. Lots more to share.

But you may be excited to get on to Chapter 2.
We can do that next after these, if that works.
I know... I know... I sure am a slave driver. - LOL

1 Timothy 2:1-6

Romans 3:24

Romans 9:16

James 2:13

Ecclesiastes 12:14

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Interesting that God will need to reconcile all things in heaven. How come?

'theistic agnostic' "I don't know"?

 

[St. SteVen]

'theistic agnostic' "I don't know"?

But seriously...
Isn't the common doctrine that nothing UNreconciled can enter heaven?

St. SteVen said:
Interesting that God will need to reconcile all things in heaven. How come?

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Ready for the next five?

or these two, which were 'in context' with some previous ones?:

Romans 5:17

"For if [ since ] by one man's offence death reigned by one; Much​

More they which receive Abundance Of Grace and of The Gift Of​

Righteousness Shall reign in life by One, Jesus Christ."​

and those that "don't receive" (in this life) are still ok, because it will "ALL pan-out" in the end
(afterlife)? I'm not yet so sure about this - OH NO!:

I suppose you are starting to wonder how many I have. - LOL

LOTS/TONS of homework? WHEN will I ever be able to grad-Jee-ate

Col 1:21

"And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your​

mind by wicked works, yet Now Hath He Reconciled"​

Wait! I thought this was "reconciliation at the end of time, going into eternity"?:

"For it Pleased [ The Father ] That In Him should all fulness dwell; And, having ​

made Peace Through The BLOOD Of His Cross, By Him To Reconcile all things unto ​

Himself; By Him, [ I say, ] whether [ they be ] things in earth, or things in heaven."​

​

cognitive dissonance in the land of 10,000 lakes?

down here in farmland, it is Cornfusion, eh?

well - almost NAPPY time again - Are we closer to our Heavenly Departure Yet?

But seriously...

uh, Sunday for that, As tonight I have to rest my weary bone-zzzz...aaaaah

 

[St. SteVen]

or these two, which were 'in context' with some previous ones?:

Romans 5:17

"For if [ since ] by one man's offence death reigned by one; MuchMore they which receive Abundance Of Grace and of The Gift OfRighteousness Shall reign in life by One, Jesus Christ."
and those that "don't receive" (in this life) are still ok, because it will "ALL pan-out" in the end
(afterlife)? I'm not yet so sure about this - OH NO!:

Ah yes, the in between verse.
It seems to contradict the two verses before it and the two verses after it. What to do, what to do... ???
Should we toss this one, or the other four? (or toss NOTHING? My preference)

 

[St. SteVen]

Col 1:21

"And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in yourmind by wicked works, yet Now Hath He Reconciled"
Wait! I thought this was "reconciliation at the end of time, going into eternity"?:

As I wrote previously, some are reconciled in this life, those we call "saved".
The rest are reconciled in the age of reconciliation/restoration.

Additional thoughts. ...

Occurred to me this AM that reconciliation is like grace, in that it is multi-faceted.
God meets us halfway by reconciling us (accounting term - settled the books) through the Atonement.
But our half is to be reconciled individually. Which makes what I wrote above more understandable.

The books opened in heaven record those individuals already reconciled.

cc: @GRACE ambassador

 

[St. SteVen]

Next up from the list in post #33

1 Timothy 2:1-6 KJV
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Prayers made for all people. (vs 1)
It is God's will that all humankind be saved. (vs 4)
Jesus gave himself as a ransom (buy back price) for all. (vs 6)
To be testified in due time. (vs 6) What? ???

To be testified in due time? When?
Has not the ransom for all been testified to all yet?

Quotes from two other good friends.

- God gives life
- God is ALL Powerful
- God desires all to be saved
- God does nothing in vain
- God knows the end from the beginning
- God doesn't fail

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

God's sovereign Will is clear: that all men come to salvation in Him.
Will the Will of God not prevail?
The Calvinists assert that God is able to save all, but chooses not to.
The Arminians counter that He would like to save all, but cannot.
There is a third position, that God is both WILLING and ABLE to save all.

 

[St. SteVen]

Next up from the list in post #33

Romans 3:24 KJV
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

All are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. (NIV wording)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This one seems to beg for context.
Begins with, "Being justified freely by his grace..." Who is?
And ends with a colon, ":". Let's get prepped for a colon-oscopy. - LOL (yikes!)

Romans 3:23-26 KJV
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The "all" appears in verse 23.
Which gives us the "all" being justified freely by his grace.
All have sinned, being justified freely by grace.

I also like the definition of "just" in verse 26.
The just is the justifier.
Just-as-if-I'd never sinned. Justified. (mild evangelical hangover)

Wow. I actually did a bit of work on this one. - LOL