A Test Of Reading Comprehension and Honesty

[Titus]

A common argument used by water-salvationists in an attempt to "get around" the thief on the cross being saved through faith "apart from water baptism" is, "the thief was not subject to baptism because he died under the OT mandate

I don't know who's religion teaches this but it certainly is not what I believe.
The thief would absolutely be subject to water immersion by John.
All of the Jews from Jerusalem and Judea came to John to be baptized by him.

We dont know if the thief was or was not baptized by John. Danthemailman teaches he was not,
Which he cannot prove therefore he is teaching error. I challenge Dan to prove with book, chapter and verse that the thief on the cross was not baptized by John the baptist.

In John 3:11, we read - I baptize you with water FOR repentance.. Now was this baptism FOR (in order to obtain) repentance or FOR (in regards to/on the basis of) remission of sins received upon repentance? If translated "in order to obtain" the verse does not make sense. I baptize you with water FOR (in order to obtain) repentance? or I baptize you with water FOR (in regards to/on the basis of) repentance?

Danthemailman wants us to believe the Baptism of John is not for the remission of sins.
That is in order to cleanse the Jews of their sins.
Dan teaches they had repented and their baptism represents they have already repented.

They makes their baptism inconsequential to their repentance(because they already repented before baptism).

Therefore, if they were not baptized they would still have repented.
John's baptism was commanded, it was not if you wanted to.
If the Jews were not baptized they would be dis-obeying Gods law.

No one can be penitent and go against Gods decrees.
Therefore if they did not obey the command to be baptized THEY COULD NOT BE REPENTANT!
In order to be repentant they must have obeyed God by being baptized for the forgiveness of sins.

Can anyone claim they have repented of their sins against God and dis-obey His commandments?
Dan wants you to believe they already repented before obeying Gods command to be baptized.

 

[Titus]

Right now you are unaware as to how ridiculous it is to say that the thief who believed was not saved by the LORD.

the the LIVING BREATHING BLEEDING NT nailed to the Cross SAVED the Thief who BELIEVED

Please go back and READ the Gospel of John

You are guilty of misrepresentation.
I never said the Thief on the cross was not saved by Jesus who is God!
No one who has ever lived can be saved without Jesus' shed blood on the cross.

 

[David in NJ]

You are guilty of misrepresentation.
I never said the Thief on the cross was not saved by Jesus who is God!
No one who has ever lived can be saved without Jesus' shed blood on the cross.

Which is the correct Representation:
a.) the Thief was saved by the Only Begotten of the Father = Jesus the Anointed Messiah who committed no sin.
b.) the Thief was saved by the Blood of Jesus poured out on the Cross fulfilling OT Prophecy Genesis, Isaiah, Psalms

 

[Charlie24]

You are guilty of misrepresentation.
I never said the Thief on the cross was not saved by Jesus who is God!
No one who has ever lived can be saved without Jesus' shed blood on the cross.

Is it the Blood of Christ that cleanses sin or the ritual of water baptism? It's one or the other.

Paul gives us the purpose of water baptism. If you get this wrong, you have some serious problems.

When Paul said, "don't you know that we who are baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death" what does that mean?

When the Gospel is heard and believed, instantly that person becomes a new man in Christ. He is spiritually immersed into the death of Christ. The old man is dead and the new man is born-again in Christ.

Water baptism follows this new experience as a visual symbol of what took place in the heart of the new believer. It's the confession of the new believer that his sins have been washed away by faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ.

This confession through water baptism was demanded by the apostles, they demanded proof through this confession that you are now a believer in Christ.

 

[David in NJ]

You are guilty of misrepresentation.
I never said the Thief on the cross was not saved by Jesus who is God!
No one who has ever lived can be saved without Jesus' shed blood on the cross.

Which is the correct Representation:
a.) the Thief was saved by the Only Begotten of the Father = Jesus the Anointed Messiah who committed no sin yet nailed to the Cross.
b.) the Thief was saved by the Blood of Jesus poured out on the Cross fulfilling OT Prophecy Genesis, Isaiah, Psalms
c.) the Thief was saved because the Father elected him and brought him to Christ on the Cross shedding NT Blood

 

[Titus]

Is it the Blood of Christ that cleanses sin or the ritual of water baptism? It's one or the other.

We sing this song where I worship.
"What can wash away my sins, nothing but the blood of Jesus.
What can make me whole again nothing but the blood of Jesus."

Also this song,
"Would you be free from your passions and pride there's power in the blood power in the blood,
Come for a victory to calvary's tide, theres wonder working power in the blood,
There is power, there is power wonder working power in the precious blood of the Lamb"

No power in water.
No cleansing from sin by water.

How do we come in contact with the blood of Christ?
Please show scripture.

Paul had faith in Jesus but it was not until three days later after faith did he receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit,
Acts 9:9-10
- And he was three days without sight and neither are nor drank.
Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias and to him the Lord said in a vision
Ananias, and Ananias said, Here I am Lord, So the Lord said to him, "Arise and go to the street called Straight and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold he is praying, and in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting His hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.
V 17,
- And Ananias went his way and entered the house and laying His hands on him he said. Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road to Damascus has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.
V 18,
- Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.

Paul was not Holy Spirit baptized the moment he had faith in Jesus.
Three days passed, then Ananias lay hands on him and he was then Holy Spirit baptized.
Then Ananias water baptized him.
Which baptism did Paul say washed away His sins?
If he was saved before baptism,on the road to Damascus when he believed on the Lord, he was saved before he received the Holy Spirit.

Paul tells us which baptism he received to wash away his sins,
Acts 22:16,
And now why are you waiting, Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins calling on the name of the Lord.

One baptism was the laying on of hands
The other was by Ananias baptizing him in water.

Laying on of hands does not require you move.
Water baptism requires getting up and getting into a pool of water.

Paul's sins were not washed away the moment he believed.
Paul had to be water baptized to wash away His sins.
Therefore in baptism is where we contact the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ to wash away our sins.
The water does not turn to blood. God works His power or operates on us when we believe and obey His gospel.
Colossians 2:12,
- buried with Him in baptism in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Jesus from the dead.

Water baptism is not a work of man.
It is a work of God. He saves us, we do not save ourselves without His Grace.

 

[Charlie24]

We sing this song where I worship.
"What can wash away my sins, nothing but the blood of Jesus.
What can make me whole again nothing but the blood of Jesus."

Also this song,
"Would you be free from your passions and pride there's power in the blood power in the blood,
Come for a victory to calvary's tide, theres wonder working power in the blood,
There is power, there is power wonder working power in the precious blood of the Lamb"

No power in water.
No cleansing from sin by water.

How do we come in contact with the blood of Christ?
Please show scripture.

Paul had faith in Jesus but it was not until three days later after faith did he receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit,
Acts 9:9-10
- And he was three days without sight and neither are nor drank.
Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias and to him the Lord said in a vision
Ananias, and Ananias said, Here I am Lord, So the Lord said to him, "Arise and go to the street called Straight and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold he is praying, and in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting His hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.
V 17,
- And Ananias went his way and entered the house and laying His hands on him he said. Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road to Damascus has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.
V 18,
- Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.

Paul was not Holy Spirit baptized the moment he had faith in Jesus.
Three days passed, then Ananias lay hands on him and he was then Holy Spirit baptized.
Then Ananias water baptized him.
Which baptism did Paul say washed away His sins?
If he was saved before baptism,on the road to Damascus when he believed on the Lord, he was saved before he received the Holy Spirit.

Paul tells us which baptism he received to wash away his sins,
Acts 22:16,
And now why are you waiting, Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins calling on the name of the Lord.

One baptism was the laying on of hands
The other was by Ananias baptizing him in water.

Laying on of hands does not require you move.
Water baptism requires getting up and getting into a pool of water.

Paul's sins were not washed away the moment he believed.
Paul had to be water baptized to wash away His sins.
Therefore in baptism is where we contact the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ to wash away our sins.
The water does not turn to blood. God works His power or operates on us when we believe and obey His gospel.
Colossians 2:12,
- buried with Him in baptism in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Jesus from the dead.

Water baptism is not a work of man.
It is a work of God. He saves us, we do not save ourselves without His Grace.

Well, you've hit on the problem!

Before the Pentecostals came along with the title "baptized with the Holy Spirit," that term was considered by the theologians to be what Paul explained in Rom. 6.

It is the spiritual baptism that takes place at believing in Christ. Now so many are confused and don't know what it really means.

 

[Titus]

Well, you've hit on the problem!

Before the Pentecostals came along with the title "baptized with the Holy Spirit," that term was considered by the theologians to be what Paul explained in Rom. 6.

It is the spiritual baptism that takes place at believing in Christ. Now so many are confused and don't know what it really means

I sure don't believe in penetcostalism.
Mark 1:8,
I indeed baptized you with water but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.
Any baptism where God works His power to wash away our sins is spiritual baptism, Colossians 2:12,
Acts 2:38,
- Repent and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Peter preached remission of sins through contacting the blood of Christ in water baptism.

 

[Charlie24]

I sure don't believe in penetcostalism.
Mark 1:8,
I indeed baptized you with water but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.
Any baptism where God works His power to wash away our sins is spiritual baptism, Colossians 2:12,
Acts 2:38,
- Repent and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Peter preached remission of sins through contacting the blood of Christ in water baptism.

You not find contact with the Blood of Christ in water baptism anywhere in Scripture.

That is an incorrect assumption by the water baptizers.

 

[Titus]

You not find contact with the Blood of Christ in water baptism anywhere in Scripture.

That is an incorrect assumption by the water baptizers.

When did Paul contact the cleansing blood of Christ?
The road to Damascus when he believed in Jesus?
Three days later when Ananias said: "Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins calling on the name of the Lord?
Colossians 2:12.

 

[Titus]

You not find contact with the Blood of Christ in water baptism anywhere in Scripture.

That is an incorrect assumption by the water baptizers.

Water never saved anyone Charlie24. Love you

 

[Charlie24]

When did Paul contact the cleansing blood of Christ?
The road to Damascus when he believed in Jesus?
Three days later when Ananias said: "Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins calling on the name of the Lord?
Colossians 2:12.

We agree that water never saved anyone.

Where is we disagree is the moment of salvation, the exact point it takes place.

 

[Titus]

Which is the correct Representation:
a.) the Thief was saved by the Only Begotten of the Father = Jesus the Anointed Messiah who committed no sin yet nailed to the Cross.
b.) the Thief was saved by the Blood of Jesus poured out on the Cross fulfilling OT Prophecy Genesis, Isaiah, Psalms
c.) the Thief was saved because the Father elected him and brought him to Christ on the Cross shedding NT Blood

A and B true
C, maybe unless it is from a calvinistic point of view.

Jesus had not shed his blood when Noah died.
Did Noah go to heaven or hell?
Hebrews 9:22,
- and according to the law almost all things are purified with blood and without shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.

 

[Charlie24]

We agree that water never saved anyone.

Where is we disagree is the moment of salvation, the exact point it takes place.

According to Paul, salvation takes place the very moment we believe. This is when Rom. 6 takes place.

Eph. 1:13

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"

 

[Titus]

We agree that water never saved anyone.

Where is we disagree is the moment of salvation, the exact point it takes place.

Amen, I am so thankful you are not misrepresenting me by claiming I believe water saves me!!!
I am falsely accused of this by many on here.
You have made me so happy!

I dont believe I can do any work of my own will and be saved.

Yes, this is the most important question: Where do we contact the blood of Christ.
If you can give me a Biblical answer that this occurs the moment I believe.
I will repent of teaching that it occurs the moment we are baptized.

 

[Titus]

According to Paul, salvation takes place the very moment we believe. This is when Rom. 6 takes place.

Eph. 1:13

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"

You must be misunderstanding Paul for he said his sins were not washed away until three days later after faith.

Ephesians 1:13,
Paul says "in whom ye also trusted after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation.... Now he says after hearing the gospel of truth ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

So is the gospel of truth that Paul says brings salvation, Faith only?

Jesus preached this gospel, and it says more than just believe,
Mark 16:15-16, ....he that believeth and is baptized will be saved; he that believeth not will be danmed.

Paul did not just believe. Ananias came to him and taught him the gospel of Jesus Christ,
That is why Paul knew to be water baptized, Acts 22:16.
If faith only is the whole gospel, then why did Ananias teach him to be baptized to wash away His sins, calling on the name of the Lord?

 

[David in NJ]

A and B true
C, maybe unless it is from a calvinistic point of view.

Jesus had not shed his blood when Noah died.
Did Noah go to heaven or hell?
Hebrews 9:22,
- and according to the law almost all things are purified with blood and without shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.

A, B an C are all Correct = according to the Word of God

i am not a calvinist

Hebrews 9:22 = key words = "according to the Law"

Salvation thru GRACE was firmly and IRREFUTABLY established by God in Genesis and confirmed in Gospel and Galatians

Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith,
preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”
So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

 

[Titus]

A, B an C are all Correct = according to the Word of God

i am not a calvinist

Hebrews 9:22 = key words = "according to the Law"

Salvation thru GRACE was firmly and IRREFUTABLY established by God in Genesis and confirmed in Gospel and Galatians

Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith,
preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”
So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

The Mosical law that the thief on cross died under could not save anyone, I agree,
Acts 13:39,
- And by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Biblical faith rightly defined is what must be established to understand verses that teach we are saved by faith in Jesus.

Ephesians 2:8-9, teaches our works cannot save us. Merit salvation is impossible!
Yet, we must do something in order to be saved.

Gods grace is not unconditional like calvinism teaches.
It is based upon Gods commandments in His new testament gospel.
When we believe and obey then we qualify to receive Gods free gift.

Abraham did not dis-obey God just believe and God credit his faith as righteousness.
We know the demons have faith alone, James 2:19.

As James taught faith alone is a dead faith, James 2:26.
So Abraham was not accounted righteous with a dead faith.
His faith was a living obedient faith. That is why God blessed him.

Genesis 15:6,
- and believed the Lord and God accounted it to him for righteousness.

Was Abraham's faith without works of obedience to Gods commandments in Genesis 15:6 i.e. faith alone?

We know that is false for go back to Genesis 12,
- 5 Then Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him and Lot went with him.
Read all these chapters to chapter 15.
You will learn Abraham was already obedient to Gods commandments.
So when you get to Genesis 15:6 Abraham's faith was not alone.
He had a faith that obeys

This is the faith that the Bible says pleases God.
James 2:24,
- You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone(no obedience).
Genesis 26:4-5,
- and I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven I will give to your descendants all these lands and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed.
Because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statues and My laws.

Would God have accounted Abraham's faith as righteousness in Genesis 15:6 if he had not done works of obedience to God?

Romans 4:5 Paul never taught we are justified made righteous by a faith alone absent of obedience to God.

James 2:24,
- You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Paul taught a faith that did not obey God was worthless,
Galatians 5:6,
- For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

 

[David in NJ]

The Mosical law that the thief on cross died under could not save anyone, I agree,
Acts 13:39,
- And by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Biblical faith rightly defined is what must be established to understand verses that teach we are saved by faith in Jesus.

Ephesians 2:8-9, teaches our works cannot save us. Merit salvation is impossible!
Yet, we must do something in order to be saved.

Gods grace is not unconditional like calvinism teaches.
It is based upon Gods commandments in His new testament gospel.
When we believe and obey then we qualify to receive Gods free gift.

Abraham did not dis-obey God just believe and God credit his faith as righteousness.
We know the demons have faith alone, James 2:19.

As James taught faith alone is a dead faith, James 2:26.
So Abraham was not accounted righteous with a dead faith.
His faith was a living obedient faith. That is why God blessed him.

Genesis 15:6,
- and believed the Lord and God accounted it to him for righteousness.

Was Abraham's faith without works of obedience to Gods commandments in Genesis 15:6 i.e. faith alone?

We know that is false for go back to Genesis 12,
- 5 Then Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him and Lot went with him.
Read all these chapters to chapter 15.
You will learn Abraham was already obedient to Gods commandments.
So when you get to Genesis 15:6 Abraham's faith was not alone.
He had a faith that obeys

This is the faith that the Bible says pleases God.
James 2:24,
- You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone(no obedience).
Genesis 26:4-5,
- and I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven I will give to your descendants all these lands and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed.
Because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statues and My laws.

Would God have accounted Abraham's faith as righteousness in Genesis 15:6 if he had not done works of obedience to God?

Romans 4:5 Paul never taught we are justified made righteous by a faith alone absent of obedience to God.

James 2:24,
- You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Paul taught a faith that did not obey God was worthless,
Galatians 5:6,
- For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

SEE - you start on a false premise mixed with Truth = "The Mosical law that the thief on cross died under could not save anyone, I agree,"

The Thief died under the NT Promise = Yeshua HaMoshiach shed His Blood for the sins of the world

The Thief died under the Promise of Life = "this Day you will be with ME in Paradise"

The Law was ALREADY nailed to Christ's Body on the Cross when the Thief beleived unto YESHUA = SALVATION

 

[Charlie24]

You must be misunderstanding Paul for he said his sins were not washed away until three days later after faith.

Ephesians 1:13,
Paul says "in whom ye also trusted after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation.... Now he says after hearing the gospel of truth ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

So is the gospel of truth that Paul says brings salvation, Faith only?

Jesus preached this gospel, and it says more than just believe,
Mark 16:15-16, ....he that believeth and is baptized will be saved; he that believeth not will be danmed.

Paul did not just believe. Ananias came to him and taught him the gospel of Jesus Christ,
That is why Paul knew to be water baptized, Acts 22:16.
If faith only is the whole gospel, then why did Ananias teach him to be baptized to wash away His sins, calling on the name of the Lord?

Paul's sins were washed away and he was gloriously saved on the road to Damascus when he said, "Lord, what will you have me do."

That was the moment he surrendered to Christ, and according to Eph. 1:13 he was saved receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Three days later Ananias sent him to be water baptized, confessing what had happened in his salvation on the road to Damascus. The wdater baptism of Paul, as with all, represented the washing away of his sins. It is the symbol and confession of being baptized spiritually into Christ, Rom. 6.